General Question

Rarebear's avatar

Can someone please explain to me the logic of anti-vaxxers who seem not to give a crap that they've caused a measles epidemic in Minnesota?

Asked by Rarebear (24567points) May 13th, 2017

Anti-vaxxers targeted Somali immigrants and lo and behold, measles has spiked in that population.

Anti-vaxxers are among the lowest scum of the Earth. I put them in the same basket as suicide bombers and child pornographers.

https://www.labroots.com/trending/clinical-and-molecular-dx/5957/measles-strikes-hard-unvaccinated-communities-minnesota

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86 Answers

Tropical_Willie's avatar

They aren’t logical: ergo no logic.

gorillapaws's avatar

@Rarebear I think they’re more like female genital mutilators: backward beliefs, immune to reason and rational discussion, immense harm caused to OTHER people.

The logic from their perspective begins with certain false assumptions: Scientists/doctors have a financial/ideological agenda that incentivizes them to harm people for money. Doctors and researchers are willing to harm people for money.

Furthermore, the ethics of heard immunity are a bit nuanced. There is a legitimate very tiny chance of individual harm as a result of a vaccine. People can get the benefit of a vaccine without having one them self through herd immunity. Therefore, due to the tragedy of the commons they can get away with not being vaccinated, thereby ruining heard immunity for the community if enough do it.

Rarebear's avatar

Good answer, thanks.

Rarebear's avatar

Now I’m thinking that the antivaxxers in Minnesota are simply racist. They see a vulnerable immigrant group of color that they can spread lies.

JLeslie's avatar

I think the anti-vaccine people believe what they preach. I think the Somalians were afraid, and so they didn’t vaccinate. Unfortunately, measles is incredibly contagious, as you know, so when it hits, it travels through a community like wildfire when many of the people aren’t immune.

I think it’s worth remembering that in America still over 90% of the population is vaccinated. These stories always make it sound like a huge percentage of people aren’t vaccinating. The word epidemic makes it sound like thousands are infected, but right now it’s less than 50 if I remember correctly.

Moreover, if everyone is so very worried about herd immunity for measles maybe we should be testing older adults for immunity. The immunity can wane.

JLeslie's avatar

@gorillapaws It’s not uncommon in the black community for them to believe medical professionals will poison them for research. It’s leftover from the Tuskegee experiment. The Somalians are not descendants of black people who have been here for generations, but they might interact with them a lot, I don’t know. MN is pretty white. I have heard that in Africa there are some obstacles in some countries regarding giving the polio vaccine, because of fears of side effects. Polio vaccine is currently being given out by the Gates foundation with the goal of eradicating polio from the planet like small pox.

In my experience parts of the white community in America have been more afraid of vaccines than minority communities. I don’t know actual stats regarding that, but that’s my experience. Usually, tree hugger type, “natural medicine” leaning people.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Just a sign of the times. People listen to celebrities, or Facebook,or the loudest voice, more than scientists.

I would add though, big pharmaceutical companies’ behavior lends credibility to some of the anti-vaxxer’s logic. They don’t trust big pharma, or the government. I think that’s at the root of their argument…

Earthbound_Misfit's avatar

I think it’s a good question, but I don’t think their beliefs are based on any logic. I also don’t think it’s about racism either. They don’t vaccinate their own kids! They’re just morons.

RedDeerGuy1's avatar

When I was 5 years old I was scared of needles and I refused the weird chemical that the nurse wanted to put In my arm. I had chicken pox a year before. I get my flu shot every year now. Also I don’t know what shots I have and haven’t had so I can’t just catch up. My bad : (

JLeslie's avatar

@RedDeerGuy1 You can catch up. You can get a tetanus and pertussis easily. You can test to see if you are immune to tetanus, rubella, measles, mumps, and a few others with string accuracy if you want to before vaccinating yourself. The pertussis test isn’t very accurate from what I understand.

I know many immigrants who get vaccinated to be in compliance with US requirements even though they likely were already vaccinated in their country, but they don’t have their records.

RedDeerGuy1's avatar

@JLeslie I asked 7 years ago and the Dr. got mad at me and told me to see a nurse to check my records. I asked her and she yelled at me and said that she can help me. I don’t have my card so they said that they can help me. I will ask another dr. next time and see what happens.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

I know antivaxxers with PhDs. They aren’t stupid, but they are extremely narrow – they don’t grasp much outside their immediate work and family life.

Think Ben Carson, who is by all accounts a great brain surgeon but he thinks the pyramids were grain silos because some preacher told him so.

JLeslie's avatar

@RedDeerGuy1 There isn’t some sort of central medical record thing in your province where they can just look up your records? I would have thought with socialized medicine that info would be available.

RedDeerGuy1's avatar

@JLeslie When I was a kid we had a red card that you kept for your life. I lost mine. i will call the pharmacy mow and ask.

Earthbound_Misfit's avatar

People with PhDs can be morons. If they can’t critically evaluate evidence to the point where they think it’s okay to leave their kids unprotected, they’re morons with PhDs as far as I’m concerned.

RedDeerGuy1's avatar

@JLeslie O.K, I phoned 811 Health link 24 hour nurse ,and they will mail me my immunisation record in 5 to 7 days free of charge. Thanks. Fluther could have saved my life again.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

@Earthbound_Misfit they’re morons with PhDs as far as I’m concerned

They are like the wealthy business people I know with no interest in history, art, literature, philosophy, or politics. They’re philistines.

Morons in my view. But they focus and succeed.

I wouldn’t trade minds with them, but I wish I could make money like them.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

The conspiracy theorists are very adept at convincing people who are susceptible to believing it. You may think they are just dumb but you would be wrong. There is such a thing as being too open minded and it takes intelligence to be this way. A truly dull person will never question the state of things, they will never ask why. The bulk of the anti-vaxers are just not equipped to analyze the larger picture.

JLeslie's avatar

I’ve found that too many people who are typically logical, moral, and ethical, throw some, or all, of that out the window when they are afraid. We see it with vaccines, equality/racism, gun control, and a list of other things. I admit myself to being wary of vaccines (not to the point that I would not vaccinate my own kids against measles) and I don’t mistrust medical professionals in the sense that I think they purposely harm people, but I do lack confidence in the system sometimes, which includes the safety of new drugs and vaccines, big pharmas all too often drive for gouging profits, and too often doctors not up to date on their pharmacology.

MollyMcGuire's avatar

Well, the only ones getting sick are the unimmunized. What’s the problem?

RedDeerGuy1's avatar

Sorry for the typos . I flagged my answer @JLeslie I asked 7 years ago and the Dr. got mad at me and told me to see a nurse to check my records. I asked her and she yelled at me and said that she can’t help me. I don’t have my card so they said that they can’t help me. I will ask another dr. next time and see what happens. Edit. I called a 24/7 nurse for free and she will mail me my immunization records for free.

Dutchess_III's avatar

^^^^ Haven’t read above. I don’t think they targeted based on race. They targeted those who are gullible, perhaps uneducated, who are still closely affiliated with a superstitious and fearful culture.
All races can have pockets of this type of personality. The antivaxxers are scum who basically target fearful, immature and innocent children.

marinelife's avatar

Not logic.
Fear.
Primitive thinking.
It’s really painful what results from it in the world.

Rarebear's avatar

@MollyMcGuire Are you serious?

marinelife's avatar

@MollyMcGuire The innocent children who are the victims of their anti-vaxxer parents? That’s OK? Where is your empathy?

Rarebear's avatar

@marinelife And the Somalis who are are target of a deliberate misinformation campaign.

JLeslie's avatar

So much name calling. Don’t you think the anti-vaxxers actually believe the vaccines are harmful?

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

What are the details of the misinformation campaign? Most anti-vaxers I know really believe what they are saying.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

It’s a disinformation campaign whether they think so or not.

It’s like when Scientologists harass critics and heretics – they get their orders and they swarm in like flying monkeys.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

That was how I was thinking this went. I was not aware of any deliberate agenda. The anti-vaxers I have seen also are inclined to believe such things like plate tectonics is wrong and that the earth is actually growing, colon cleansing is beneficial, “vitamin b17” cures cancer and that radio and EMF cause it. Just smart enough to look into things and not simply brush them off but not quite smart or educated/experienced enough to ferret out the bullshit. Some of these things hoodwink very bright people at times.

Rarebear's avatar

@ARE_you_kidding_me The antivaxxers targeted the Somali immigrants in an anti-vax campaign.

From the link in the OP: “So, by about 2008, we started to see the vaccine rates drop as the word got through the Somali community that autism was linked to measles vaccination,” said Osterholm. “In the years since then, Andrew Wakefield has actually been brought in several times to the Somali community here in Minnesota to actually give presentations supporting this information. ... His work has been retracted.”

DominicY's avatar

Anti-vaxers, to me, seem to be another example of people trying to make sense out of a chaotic world (but hurting people in the process). They see rates of autism going up and no one can explain it, so they’ve latched onto something that’s changed in our environment (more vaccinations) that might explain the change in autism (its rise). The problem is it seems to almost be an arbitrary choice. They could blame it on increased consumption of fast food, the use of certain pesticides, certain pre-natal treatments, radiation from cell phone towers, etc. There are a number of environmental things that are different about the modern world than in the past that could explain a rise in autism (this assuming that autism rates actually are rising and that the cause is environmental, which it may not even be).

Given all these variables, I don’t think it’s fair for anti-vaxers to single out vaccinations, especially when we know that lack of vaccination cause outbreaks like this. And if they are deliberately spreading a disinformation campaign, then that borders on criminal. Actually believing something doesn’t make their actions excusable. I could believe that kidnapping children and putting them on an island gives them a better life; it doesn’t make me less culpable just because I “actually” believe it.

JLeslie's avatar

@DominicY I think you have a great answer, but I would remind you, and others here, that MN must have laws that allow parents not to vaccinate, and so the laws and guidance by health professionals in the state might need some revamping. Kidnapping is not legal for good reason, but not vaccinating is legal in MN from what I can gather. Or, was the case here that all the children were under school age? Some states require certain vaccines to enter school unless they have a medical reason.

SquirrelEStuff's avatar

Why can’t more people take a similar approach such as @DominicY when it comes to understanding why people think a certain way rather than just dismissing and ridiculing people? I wonder how many of the people who criticize people who question vaccines smoke cigarettes and have a terrible diet?

There is a great distrust regarding the government and pharmaceutical companies in America. When you look at the fact that most food and water in the US contains many harmful substances such as lead, anti-depressants, Pesticides, herbicides, hormones, etc.
We are bombarded with an enormous amount of chemicals in our daily products such as shampoo, soap, deodorants, toothpaste, etc, none of which are tested when combined with each other.
The FDA and lobbyists are made up of people who have close corporate ties to major pharmaceutical companies, and sometimes are even the same people.
And then you start researching vaccines and see that they contain things like formaldehyde, aluminum, mercury, chick cell embryos, etc. and realize that the recommended vaccine schedule has almost tripled in 30 years.
Oh yeah, and pharmaceutical companies and doctors can’t be sued in a normal court because the US has a special vaccine injury court, which has paid out more than $3 BILLION due to vaccine related injuries.

Now I’m not saying that all vaccines are bad. I’m really not. But we live in a society that reacts to everything, and we react quickly.
Each year lately, there is a disease that comes around that scares the bajesus out of everyone. Swine flu, Ebola, Zika, etc…
And almost every time, vaccines are being created.

Do the people who think that vaccines should be mandatory think that any vaccine created should be mandatory? Which vaccines should people have to get to make you happy and non-critical?

I also want to point out that I have a friend of the family who contracted polio from his daughters vaccine when she was a baby. It took him 30 years to win a lawsuit to receive compensation for ending up in a wheelchair or the rest of his life.
30 years!!!
Now if court cases can be dragged out for 30 years in regards to a vaccine injury, isn’t it very possible that it could take a long time to figure out if the amount of vaccines we are now giving kids are doing damage? We all know how much money and protection the pharmaceutical companies have…

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

You have just given at least in part the anti-vaccine argument. This is exactly the thought process that leads some to a “no vaccine” extreme. I actually question some of it myself, it would be quite reckless not to do so. Pharm companies are about the bottom line make no mistake so selling medications that may not be needed at inflated prices is seemingly not all that uncommon. It’s up to us to do our due diligence. Sometimes unfortunately it leads people to alternative facts that the snake oil peddlers use to sell their magic beans. Saying no to a measles vaccine that is proven to be necessary is a pretty dumb thing to do. Refusing a cholesterol med when you are borderline and can make some lifestyle changes may not be so dumb.

SquirrelEStuff's avatar

Wouldn’t the snake oil peddlers be the pharma companies in this case? What does anyone who is anti-vax have to gain by doing so? There’s nothing to sell in this case.
You say a “no vaccine” extreme. What do you mean by that? What vaccines should be done, in your opinion, and where does the line get drawn?

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

It’s a grey line IMO. I have an aunt and uncle who have not vaccinated their kids for anything at all. It pisses me off. I’m getting vaccines for things that can fuck me up bad like hep or tetanus especially when the risk is low. Make no mistake vaccines are life saving and are not snake oil. Most drugs are to the right people. Where I get crossed is when they price gouge us and when they try to get people on them who don’t need them.
The snake oil peddlers sell shit like “zeolites,” “energy cleaners,” super duper vitamin cure all supplements that make you 18 again with a 12 inch pecker and on and on…

JLeslie's avatar

Grey to me to. I can’t imagine not giving vaccines for measles, mumps, rubella, polio, tetanus, pertussis, and diphtheria to children.

I’m not clear why newborn infants are given hep B vaccines?? What’s the chances an infant gets exposed to hep b? I doubt I’ve ever had hep A series, I don’t think it was given when I was a kid. Hep A was fairly rare when I was growing up, then from what I understand border states saw more of it, and started vaccinating. Now, I think it’s on the vaccine schedule across the country. When my husband was traveling a lot they have him the hep A series, and I wanted to know if that was necessary?! He had hep A as a child. They gave him multiple vaccines at once and I was pissed! 4 at once. What if he had a reaction to one? We wouldn’t know which.

When chicken pox vaccine first came out I would not have given it to my kid. Now, it’s been many many years and I would be inclined to give it. HPV vaccine I would not have given when it was first in the market it either. I try to avoid most “drugs” when they first enter the market.

I don’t get the flu vaccine, but I would if there was a specific flu that was especially life threatening. I do think certain groups should get the vaccine, and I’m thankful to people who do get the vaccine for increasing the immunity in the community.

I get my tetanus level checked every few years to make sure my number is high enough.

DominicY's avatar

I should add that I also agree that nothing is above question. Of course people who have an anti-government attitude from the get-go may be more wary of something that is endorsed by the government (like vaccines), but even if it weren’t, it would still not be above questioning. There’s no doubt that some vaccines seem like a no-brainer, but others are perhaps a bit more questionable (HPV is one that I’m a little wary of—I remember it being pushed when I was in high school, even for boys, I never got it). I also never get a flu shot (though I know many people here are gung ho about it).

The point is, it’s not always as simple and cut-and-dry as it appears at first. There’s always another side to it. But, just because there is another side, doesn’t mean that other side’s case is equally valid. I think it’s prudent to question vaccines, but to come to the conclusion that “no vaccines” is the answer and to peddle that disputed information to immigrants who may be unfamiliar with the American vaccine norm is problematic (and leads to situations like we see now in Minnesota)—let alone linking them to autism, which has not been proven.

JLeslie's avatar

I think part of the problem in America is we do have herd immunity for many of these diseases for many many years now, and many of the anti-vaxxers have never ever seen someone suffer with one of these diseases. Polio?! Really? I can’t imagine risking polio. I do know people who lived through polio, they all have lasting effects.

My mom and husband had mumps as children. My mom had pertussis as a child also, and she remembers it. All of those diseases I have never seen someone actually go through it, although I do personally know adults who had whooping cough within the last few years, but I wasn’t with them witnessing them suffering.

The effectiveness of our vaccines in America I think is in a bazaar way part of the reason these people feel ok risking the diseases.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@Rarebear I really don’t think they “targeted” the Somalis out of racism. They target everyone. The Somalis fell for it. Lots of Caucasians do, too.

SquirrelEStuff's avatar

Who are they and what do they get out of convincing people?

Dutchess_III's avatar

They are idiots who think they’re on a Mission From Gawd to save the world from evil trickery. I think they honestly think they’re doing the righteous thing.

RocketGuy's avatar

If anti-vaxxers are avoiding subjecting themselves to the small risk of side effects, while enjoying herd immunity, I would consider that to be selfish. Not pulling their weight in risk.

If they targeted an immigrant community that was minimally educated, I would consider that taking advantage to the situation to further their agenda.

On the surface, it certainly looks like they were targeting a non-white community to reduce immunity and increase risk of injury and death.

JLeslie's avatar

^^You do realize that the antivaxxers probably realize, that if they convince more and more people not to vaccinate the herd immunity won’t exist anymore.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

the antivaxxers probably realize, that if they convince more and more people not to vaccinate the herd immunity won’t exist anymore.

Nope. They don’t believe vaccines work.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

Agree, they honestly believe it is a conspiracy and that vaccines are harmful.

JLeslie's avatar

Wait, what? I thought they just didn’t feel comfortable with the “risks” associated with the vaccines, and that they feel the risk of catching some of the diseases is very low.

How can anyone deny the measles vaccine doesn’t work? That’s crazy talk. I know, I know, that’s what everyone is saying—they’re crazy. There is a failure rate, but it’s small. Some vaccine the failure rate is higher than the measles vaccine.

Anyway, even if you don’t know the stats regarding how measles infections and deaths plummeted once the vaccine was introduced, and I mean dropped like a rock, you just have to look around to see very few people in America get measles, when it is incredibly contagious.

Vaccines are harmful is very different than saying they don’t protect against the disease intended.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@JLeslie You don’t understand ANTI -VAXXERS anything to do with vaccine is a large conspiracy against the world to “inject mind control” . . . bla-bla bla 1

There is no logic they are against it all.

“The conspiracy is just making up the survival rate of people vaccinated.” Is their mantra.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

Oh boy, just go down the youtube rabbit hole, start by searching “alex jones” & “vaccines” you will certainly see what this bullshit is about. Seeing what these people think and believe cannot be unseen.

JLeslie's avatar

I’ve skimmed in the past what Mercola wrote and some others. I have friends who skipped some vaccines for their children, or waited to vaccinate their kids. I’ve heard some of it, but I guess I haven’t heard all of the extremes out there. Most people I know who didn’t vaccinate, or were reluctant, believed vaccines do give you immunity.

I still think they believe they are helping people—good intentions and all of that. They just have a lot of misinformation.

AuntJ's avatar

Please don’t be a victim of propaganda or let the media brainwash you into believing that anti-vaxers are evil. The majority of your ancestors did not vaccinate; where all those people evil too? You lump them into same group as suicide bombers and child pornographers? Really? Get a grip on yourself.

Those who question vaccines usually have done much more research than those who blindly follow the vaccination schedule. They are not evil people. In fact, quite the opposite. They are people who are passionate about ensuring the health and safety of all humanity, including our future generations. They are people who have studied the pros and cons of vaccinating and have reached the conclusion that the benefits do not outweigh the risks. Our bodies were built for acquiring immunity naturally, and more and more people are waking up to the fact that vaccines damage the body in various ways. Did you know that no long-term studies have EVER been done on vaccines?

Once you do your own research, read books on vaccination and immunity (not stories put out by the media to scare people into vaccinating- these pop up every few years), read the actual paper pamphlets included with the vaccine products (from the vaccine manufacturers), you may reach a different conclusion.

We all want the best for our children, and for them to have the greatest chance to grow up to be healthy and undamaged. Studies comparing the health of vaccinated vs unvaccinated people are practically non-existent but those that do exist point toward unvaccinated being much healthier. One small study is below. “In summary, vaccination, non-white race, and male gender were significantly associated with NDD (defined as ASD, ADHD, and/or a learning disability)”

http://www.rescuepost.com/files/age-of-autism-vaccination-outcomes-anthony-r.-mawson-brian-d.-ray-azad-r.-bhuiyan-binu-jacob.pdf

I personally chose to selectively vaccinate.. mine had only 3, he is extremely healthy, fights off illnesses quickly. He is in the top of his class, in the gifted program, soon to be 10… In kindergarten he caught chicken pox (from a relative’s shingles) and had no issues, barely any discomfort and now has real immunity- probably more so than those who have had the vaccine, which may wear off in the future, leaving them susceptible at an older age, which is more risky, as getting it when young is preferred for minimal complications.

They try to scare you into getting everything when its not necessary. Everyone in my generation had chicken pox and everyone in my parents generation had the measles. (the actual illness; not the vaccine.) There will always be those who are susceptible to complications, both from the actual virus, as well as from the vaccine. Every parent needs to decide which risk they are willing to accept and to do that, they need to do actual research on every disease there is a vaccine available for, and not rely on media scare tactic propaganda. I personally know at least 3 people who were vaccine damaged or died and many more with suspected effects… it still wasn’t an easy decision to forgo any of the vaccines and I still occasionally question and re-evaluate that decision.. It has been drilled into our minds from an early age that they are all safe and effective, when that is not really the truth.

I am in my mid 40s and haven’t had any for over 40 years since before I started kindergarten, and back then there were only a handful that you had. I rarely see the dr and take no medications for any chronic illness.

If you choose not to vaccinate then you must assume that there is a chance your child will get the disease, and be ok with that, and know how to treat it when it occurs, to lower risk of complications. Which you should do even if you do vaccinate, as they are not 100% effective anyway. (notice 3 of the 48 cases in the story linked, had already been vaccinated)

Realize that when you see photos in the media of measles outbreaks, they are not showing you the actual child from the story, but a stock photo of worst-case scenerio from the past, it could be from 50 or 60 years ago. They are not going to show you mild case photos or it wouldn’t have the desired effect.

This is taken from your linked story: “Measles is a serious disease. You can have pneumonia and dehydration… and people do die from measles, so we take it very seriously” Did you know that you can get pneumonia and dehydration from many other viruses too, not just measles? Every time you vomit or have diarrhea you are at risk of dehydration.

You can die from ANYthing, and that includes the flu, and common illnesses that make the rounds every year, including those which there are not yet vaccines for. Best to learn how to keep your body in a state of optimum health so that when viruses come around you will be in the best state possible to fight it off with minimal or no complications. This is what your immune system was designed to do.

My son had hundreds of chicken pox. I kept his nails trimmed, gave him oatmeal baths, applied calamine lotion, and wore long sleeve shirt and pants. In addition to a nutritious diet and extra vitamins as I do with every illness… No complications, I would not have even brought him to the dr except I wanted it documented in his health records. He’s had other illnesses (for which there are no vaccines) that he felt much worse with. (strep comes to mind.) I have read many scare tactic propaganda with even the chicken pox and his was extremely mild despite the fact that he had a lot of pox.

None of the MMR viruses (measles, mumps or rubella) are as “deadly” as they would have you believe. In all likelihood, the 48 cases will go on to recover and have lifetime immunity. IF one does not, you need to question the treatment (as some treatments increase risk of complications, such as fever reducers for example) as well as if there were underlying issues or malnutrition present prior to illness.

gorillapaws's avatar

@AuntJ I really don’t think you understand how the immune system works. I also don’t think you realize how many people used to die from diseases before vaccines were invented. You can look at the numbers and compare how life expectancy averages rise in countries after vaccines become widely available.

Also I’m not sure if you appreciate how herd immunity works. It’s an important concept, but people like your son are relying on herd immunity to get the benefit of a vaccine without having one himself. What’s particularly shitty about this is that if enough people do this then it goes away for everyone. Some people with compromised immune systems are then highly susceptible to contracting these diseases. It’s morally repugnant to put our most vulnerable members of the community at risk because of ignorance.

The study you linked to is pure crap. In 2014 Frontiers in Public Health published an article supporting HIV denialism and last year a chemtrail conspiracy article that they later retracted for fucks sake. It’s funded by anti-vaxer groups and is using the dubious methodology of self-reported survey data with a small sample size that’s not representative of the general population.

Science works. Vaccines work. Measles killed 145,000 people worldwide in 2014 mostly in countries without vaccines. If that’s the vision of health you want for America, I say you guys can all get together with Jenny McCarthy in a quarantine zone and have fun doing medicine the natural way with oatmeal baths and extra vitamins, just don’t fuck up the herd immunity for the rest of us.

JLeslie's avatar

@AuntJ Sure many people live through measles, mumps, and rubella, but many people die also. In the US over 90% of us under the age of 50 have been vaccinated with MMR, tetanus, polio, pertussis, and if we were born before 1970 we were vaccinated for small pox too. All miserable diseases, and do result in death sometimes, or leave people crippled, infertile, cause blindness in a fetus, or at minimum some diseases leave behind some scarring.

I’m pretty sure populations that don’t vaccinate are studied against vaccinated populations. Don’t think “it’s nature” and we were meant to get sick. Bullshit. “Nature” kills women every day in the birthing process. Without medical interference the number would be so much higher. People forget what it was like when we had less ability to help women. You might be too young to remember polio traveling through communities. Children kept inside and not allowed to play, hoping they wouldn’t catch it. People of all ages left crippled or dead.

That fever thing is crap too. You can’t trust your body to control the fever well. Another natural myth. It isn’t very uncommon for infant fevers to get so high they get convulsions. Another example of nature screwing up is I get a bee sting and I get a little redness, but the guy next to me, he winds up dead! Our immune systems can be imperfect.

You don’t want to vaccinate, fine, but don’t push that on others. I encourage you to read the government sites and the statistics out there.

I don’t like the name calling either, but the false information is just as bad. I think negative reactions to vaccines are underreported, I am reluctant about new vaccines when they are first introduced, but MMR, tetanus, polio, pertussis, have been around for many many years, we are the longitudinal study.

The rate of childhood deaths was much much higher before these vaccinations. Remember the Europeans coming to the Americas and bringing their diseases to the natives? It was a disaster. It killled off a lot of the population.

Rarebear's avatar

@AuntJ Antivaxxers are either evil, stupid, or ignorant. You can take your pick.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

They are ignorant, they are neither stupid or evil.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Stupid doesn’t = evil, but it can blindly lead to evil.

@AuntJ Have you had your immunizations? I’m betting you have. And that is the MOST repugnant aspect of this in my mind. You parents are safe but your kids aren’t. How coud you do that? It’s like going out into the ocean in a raft. You have a life jacket, but your kids don’t.

Rarebear's avatar

@ARE_you_kidding_me Andrew Wakeman knowingly falsified his data for personal gain, and is continuing to get personal gain from his fake data while spewing lies. In the meantime, people are believing him, not vaccinating, and getting sick, in many cases they are dying. If that is not the embodiment of evil I do not know what is.

Rarebear's avatar

@Dutchess_III I never said that stupid = evil. I said they were stupid, or ignorant, or evil. Not “and”

Dutchess_III's avatar

My comment wasn’t directed to anyone in particular. It is just my opinion that antivaxxers are stupid, and, as they have proven, such stupidity can lead to evil. They are the cause of innocent people and children dying.

@AuntJ‘s biggest argument seems to be that she’s read lots and lots of literature about it, more than the average person, therefore it must be true. THAT MUCH literature can’t possibly simply be THAT MUCH bullshit.

Well, here’s some literature on UFOs. Tons and tons. Therefore, UFO’s must be for realz. No one would create so much literature on something that isn’t.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/ufos
http://www.mufon.com/
http://www.ufosightingsdaily.com/
http://www.express.co.uk/latest/ufo
https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/
http://www.motherjonehttp://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/inside-tom-delonges-ufo-obsession-blink-182-turmoil-20160427
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2014/aug/14/men-in-black-ufo-sightings-mirage-makers-movie
https://www.informationvine.com/index?qsrc=999&qo=semQuery&ad=semD&o=603817&l=sem&askid=21028ddc-7fa2-4a4b-845a-d2d133a19cec-0-iv_gsb&q=latest%20ufo%20sighting&dqi=&am=broad&an=google_s
http://www.nuforc.org/
http://www.express.co.uk/news/weird/802243/USA-UFO-sightings-triple-UFO-Sightings-Desk-Reference-Cheryl-Costa-Linda-Costa-MUFON
https://www.facebook.com/LatestUFOSightings/
https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwj8ntqc_PTTAhVIj34KHWodDyAYABABGgJwYw&ohost=www.google.com&cid=CAASEuRoV0m6fnGcd3VBa401gtzvdg&sig=AOD64_2OVT5uAYX8OqaVf4fd3JCb7_rH-w&adurl=&q=&nb=0&res_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.informationvine.com%2Findex%3Fqsrc%3D999%26qo%3DsemQuery%26ad%3DsemD%26o%3D603817%26l%3Dsem%26askid%3D21028ddc-7fa2-4a4b-845a-d2d133a19cec-0-iv_gsb%26q%3Dlatest%2520ufo%2520sighting%26dqi%3D%26am%3Dbroad%26an%3Dgoogle_s&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&nm=5&nx=241&ny=5&is=627x405&clkt=143&bg=!sbKlsqpEzhc9LufNA98CAAABNFIAAAAiCgA5VKQEJtB3rhtdxOtluiKo95jXSa_aGxaHOryv4oYMPdSvGYD7l3T6BCpbYVZ5aOl9mwa7S6z9WbPtmQDw1udlVhs-Pk1Q96suAFb6TCjZwAPw_uKLiFfKYOh9FyZWPo8qhlDV_XA075bWrmBE4LFf3S5maAW1ziTZn8KdyA9EyOkvl1ne8AeIQxXjL2g_nbyopPZOEdqYFU_nLd8i0qTnvhqI6LVyu4hDFIPUpuXYheA8SBZGN_mMJ1pLDIaFa4t_9oKMRgA6F329fWyRtvraqyGH94t3zG3ZtF9DlbhjDC43_NOe9rG--aBx1iNJdPXeH6JqH0q-arXn2Fv3SvTu2LjCD0P6eq4c-j1h-6mAQ6l6GNo1StSGWXkBml5sPMZaQJQULxDaTInAckRv
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https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwj8ntqc_PTTAhVIj34KHWodDyAYABADGgJwYw&sig=AOD64_30EtJlbqGleBEakw7yWpjTD9P49A&adurl=&q=&nb=0&res_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.informationvine.com%2Findex%3Fqsrc%3D999%26qo%3DsemQuery%26ad%3DsemD%26o%3D603817%26l%3Dsem%26askid%3D21028ddc-7fa2-4a4b-845a-d2d133a19cec-0-iv_gsb%26q%3Dlatest%2520ufo%2520sighting%26dqi%3D%26am%3Dbroad%26an%3Dgoogle_s&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&nm=9&nx=190&ny=11&is=627x405&clkt=128&bg=!0tGl0clEzhc9LufNA98CAAABNFIAAAAYCgA53dcq040zL1NrtTVnrAY9W9pW2qMNq6YNe-rmRLSCNNVaWNyZ2UjfGHG9tG-odOuEgRySZCYkN2iWmQDw1udlVhs-Pk1Q96suAFb6TCjZwAPw_uKLiFfKYOh9FyZWPo8qhlDV_XA075bWrmBE4LFf3S5maAW1ziTZn8KdyA9EyOkvl1ne8AeIQxXjL2g_nbyopPZOEdqYFU_nLd8i0qTnvhqI6LVyu4hDFIPUpuXYheA8SBZGN_mMJ1pLDIaFa4t_9oKMRgA6F329fWyRtvraqyGH94t3zG3ZtF9Dlbhjc9FNIe66gayfcDb7tivs0AzqzDMw3fTjMsJgOYJQcXHFkPRnc4FmAd_bwaUowpIBXjUhSibUDj_TwqGXNBl4JB243EctgPLwrdeKPc9-
https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwj8ntqc_PTTAhVIj34KHWodDyAYABAEGgJwYw&num=5&sig=AOD64_2D8bexX8Os6S9Vy_sPhU26SFCQgg&adurl=&q=&nb=0&res_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.informationvine.com%2Findex%3Fqsrc%3D999%26qo%3DsemQuery%26ad%3DsemD%26o%3D603817%26l%3Dsem%26askid%3D21028ddc-7fa2-4a4b-845a-d2d133a19cec-0-iv_gsb%26q%3Dlatest%2520ufo%2520sighting%26dqi%3D%26am%3Dbroad%26an%3Dgoogle_s&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&nm=5&nx=294&ny=10&is=627x405&clkt=168&bg=!6eql6vJEzhc9LufNA98CAAABNFIAAAAVCgA5ZqlXc52VJ17iZI4xIT_al9tQAcgeflDqlOvntFRGdfgLYC1nnpGjrIm6qHkz9USvZfnANDw2KUV4mQDw1udlVhs-Pk1Q96suAFb6TCjZwAPw_uKLiFfKYOh9FyZWPo8qhlDV_XA075bWrmBE4LFf3S5maAW1ziTZn8KdyA9EyOkvl1ne8AeIQxXjL2g_nbyopPZOEdqYFU_nLd8i0qTnvhqI6LVyu4hDFIPUpuXYheA8SBZGN_mMJ1pLDIaFa4t_9oKMRgA6F329fWyRtvraqyGH94t3zG3ZtF9Dlbhjc9FNIu66gazHcA2e91wTV5Tk_nJk_NziMRijDelhki3fyd0vORfaHI4FU0IaxSMbO3rsdRgjaOmy6MOx5JjRd-3RzlYrpINvYl0rHAeN

And I’ve barely touched the tip of the iceberg.

JLeslie's avatar

Well calling names certainly isn’t going to persuade people who are afraid or feel they are being manipulated.

Dutchess_III's avatar

It just hit me. We have an actual antivaxxer on here. @AuntJ, can you answer the OP’s original question? How do you feel about the measles outbreak in Minnesota? How do you feel about the fact that it is the anti vaccine movement that caused it?

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@JLeslie You understand the anti-vaxxers have their hands over their ears going “LA-LA-LA-. . . ”

They are not going to change even if their children die.

Rarebear's avatar

@JLeslie If they find me hostile to them, then they are free not to respond or ignore my post. I stand by my statements.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I sent @AuntJ a personal message just asking what she thought of the measles out break. She didn’t respond. I mean, what could she possibly say??

JLeslie's avatar

@Dutchess_III Has anyone died in the MN outbreak? If not I assume antivaxxers would just say that proves their point.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

@Rarebear that is indeed quite evil.

Rarebear's avatar

@JLeslie I don’t think so.

JLeslie's avatar

@Rarebear You don’t think anyone has died? Or, you don’t think the antivax people will think it proves their point?

Rarebear's avatar

From the measles epidemic in Minnesota I don’t think there have been fatalities

Tropical_Willie's avatar

It is the encephalitis and other secondary virus infections that can kill or disable. My brother was in a coma (from measles encephalitis) for ten days when he was six.
He is okay today, if you ask him he is a “scar brain”.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@JLeslie that proves nothing at all. That’s like saying since no one in town A has ever killed anyone by driving drunk, that proves that drunk driving is safe. If they think it proves something, then that is proof that they are, indeed, stupid.

In 2015, there were 134 200 measles deaths globally – about 367 deaths every day or 15 deaths every hour. Source

JLeslie's avatar

^^Of course. I’m just saying I think to an anti-vaccine person no one dying would prove their point.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Then that makes my argument, and @Rarebear,‘s that they are stupid.

Can’t wait till polio makes a come back.

RocketGuy's avatar

I regularly deal with 3 people who got polio when they were young. They walk with varying degrees of limping. I’ll bet they became immune to it the natural way, too. That was back in the good old days.

Rarebear's avatar

@RocketGuy Gotta love those good ol’ days. Mmmmm…..infectious disease….

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

Yep, the good old days. Hardly any kids get to spend their days in those sweet iron lungs anymore.

JLeslie's avatar

The goal currently in play is to eradicate polio by 2020. As far as I know they are on track. That would be awesome. Such a horrible disease.

jca's avatar

When I was a teen, I had a friend whose father was from Jordan. He had polio as a child. One of his legs was totally wasted, crooked, very thin and stuck on an angle from his body. He had a terrible, debilitating limp.

JLeslie's avatar

@jca Regarding polio I feel like it was always shocking to find out someone had survived it and didn’t have some sort of significant life long effect. I don’t know what the actual statistics are. I remember being very young and finding out about various famous people, and being surprised they had been sick with polio, but you couldn’t tell.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Roosevelt was completely crippled by it.

RocketGuy's avatar

One of the polio survivors I know has a leg so wasted and crooked that I worry he will break it just walking around.

Soubresaut's avatar

My great uncle had polio, and it affected his breathing somehow. I don’t know exactly how. I just remember stories from when I was younger, about how he had trained himself to breathe using the non-diaphragm muscles around his ribs, although it was apparently difficult and exhausting…. And one night there was a power outage, and the iron lung machine stopped working. I was told that if he hadn’t taught himself how to breathe in that new way, he wouldn’t have made it through the night.

When my sister was two or three, and I was a little bit older, a mom at our preschool decided she’d “help” out the rest of the parents by bringing her son, ill with the chicken pox, to the school. She believed that it was better for all of us to be exposed to the live virus rather than get immunity through vaccines. Neither my sister nor I had gotten our vaccines yet. We believe I was exposed, although I had little more than a slight fever as a symptom (no pox to speak of). My sister, however, got horribly sick. Her fever was a degree or two from “brain cooking” temperature, and she broke out in itchy pox everywhere,, and she was crying and miserable for the duration of the illness. My parents kept doing things to keep her fever down, like having her in cool water… From what I understand, it was rather touch and go for a while, and we almost lost her.

We both got vaccines after that anyway. But now we’ve got the live virus lying dormant in our spinal column (I think it’s spinal column? Nerve cells? Somewhere)... anyway, we’ve got it dormant in us now, so that’s something to look forward to… A little “Don’t Wake Daddy” game, shingles edition.

I happen to be absolutely terrified of needles. However, I also strongly appreciate vaccines and the many ways they make the world a safer, healthier place, and the way my vaccinations protect me and those around me.

JLeslie's avatar

@Soubresaut Why was your sister vaccinated for chicken pox if she had chicken pox?

People who are vaccinated for chicken pox can still get shingles. They believe there is less chance, but the shot really hasn’t been around long enough to know what the real stats will be for older people who were vaccinated as children.

The first chicken pox shot is usually given before age two I think. Both done by kindergarten. Was there a reason your mom didn’t vaccinate you? I don’t think kindergarten requires it in most states, but it’s on the schedule for young kids.

Most of the people in the world went through chicken pox, so don’t be too worried that you had it. The U.K. Still doesn’t vaccinate for it, along with some other countries.

Soubresaut's avatar

@JLeslie—good points. To be honest, I was guessing on the ages. I don’t really remember how old we were, just that one of us was in preschool at the time, and my sister got horribly ill… We both may have been younger…

As for the vaccinations, I know that I had the vaccination a little afterward. I’ve got a medical record somewhere confirming it (and if I looked for it I could find at least the date for that)... I guess I just assumed she got one too, but you’re right, that doesn’t make much sense. We weren’t totally sure if I had gotten sick or not, so I think I got the vaccine just in case I hadn’t actually caught the virus…

About shingles—Oh. I thought that was only if you had been exposed to chicken pox at an earlier point… I know my dad had full blown chicken pox as an adult (not shingles), because he hadn’t been exposed when he was younger… I think there’s also something about getting a chicken pox booster in adulthood because the immune response will be “unlearned” eventually? Not sure…

So, okay. What I have confirmed for myself is that I don’t know that much about the biological side of chicken pox! I should figure all of that out before I tell someone else this story, aha…

JLeslie's avatar

^^Lol. Yeah, maybe read up a little on the CDC, WHO, or NIH sites. Give it a google.

You can still get shingles, because when you get the vaccine you are given the virus. The virus is altered so you don’t get sick at the time (although in rare instances people do) but unfortunately it doesn’t completely prevent the possibility of shingles later. You are not the only one who thinks getting the chicken pox vaccine means you won’t get shingles. It’s a falsehood that helps keep people coming in for the vaccine. It’s not the only reason to get the vaccine though obviously.

Yes, it’s believed the immunity from the vaccine can wane. I assume there is a blood test that can indicate if your immunity is low? I’d be curious to get that test myself since I get reoccurring shingles.

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