Social Question

DominicY's avatar

Do the Democrats need to abandon (or at least tone down) identity politics if they want to win elections?

Asked by DominicY (5662points) August 30th, 2017

In a recent controversial new book, “The Once and Future Liberal,” Mark Lilla is highly critical of Black Lives Matter…and activists on the left, who, he says, are oblivious to electoral reality. But his position, he tells the New Yorker’s David Remnick, is in the service of effecting liberal change: “We cannot do anything for these groups we care about if we do not hold power—it is just talk. Our rhetoric in campaigning must be focussed on winning so we can help these people. An election is not about self-expression—it’s a contest.”​

This is from the New Yorker Radio Hour’s recent debate between host David Remnick and political scientist Mark Lilla, who argues that identity politics are hampering the ability of the Democrats to win elections. Their focus on “identity” issues and such alienates the rest of the electorate. They make these issues specific to one demographic and do not make them relatable. They do not try and expand the base, and thus they lose elections and we get Trump as a result. And, Lilla argues, this is what really hurts these minorities and their issues. We can’t solve these issues if we don’t win.

What say you? Is this true? Do the Democrats need to find another strategy?

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40 Answers

kritiper's avatar

No. What Democrats need to do is not be so extreme, but be more Moderate, more Centrist, as in more middle-of-the-road.

DominicY's avatar

Seems like Hillary was fairly middle-of-the-road, centrist, status quo, and that didn’t seem to work. If one argues that Trump’s platform was extreme, then “extreme” certainly succeeded.

I’m just questioning everything; I don’t know what “the solution” is.

filmfann's avatar

Here’s the problem:
Nancy Pelosi.
Potential moderate voters see her as an unreasonable reactionary. Democrats see her as the epitome of RESIST.
Yet no democrat minority leader has done more to raise money for her members campaigns, and their opponents.
What do you do? If she steps down, her enemies will cry victory, and her members will have more difficulty raising money. If she stays, she drives away moderates.
Me? I love her, always have.

kritiper's avatar

Hillary was trying to follow Obama’s lead which made her extreme.
Trump is trying to please the far right Republicans who border on the very extreme Tea Party, which would make him somewhat of an extremist, but not so much. He’s more of a very right leaning Moderate/Centrist who signed a piece of paper promising to kiss the GOP’s ass.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

Democrats look “extreme” only from an AM radio/Fox News perspective, where the president expressing solidarity with Nazis and the Klan is considered middle of road.

zenvelo's avatar

I listened to the New Yorker interview too. I agree; it isn’t “identity politics” per se that are the problem; it is that is at times the only motivating focus.

Democrats have to come up with coherent sellable plans to emphasize their strong points. I liked Hillary, but she was no stronger last year than she was in ‘08. The Dems need to come up with another winning candidate that doesn’t carry the negatives that Hillary has had for years. And they need a stronger team in the Senate.

Darth_Algar's avatar

Democrats have been middle-of-the-road for ages. Staying in the middle of the road just gets you ran over.

kritiper's avatar

If Democrats are not leftists but centrists, then who the hell is really on the left??? Sounds like misleading, misrepresentative BS from some poor misguided soul who got ran over by who knows who.

SquirrelEStuff's avatar

Y’all are still pretending the two-party system isn’t being manipulated to limit choices and debate? I see we’re making some good progress.

“The argument of two parties should represent opposed ideas and policies, one perhaps, of the Right and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea acceptable only to doctrinate and academic thinkers. Instead, the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can “throw the rascals out” at any election without leading to any profound or extensive shifts in policy. The policies that are vital and necessary for America are no longer subjects of significant disagreement, but are disputable only in details of procedure, priority, or method.”
Carroll Quigley

Darth_Algar's avatar

@kritiper “If Democrats are not leftists but centrists, then who the hell is really on the left???”

In this country? No one in a position of significance.

DominicY's avatar

“The policies that are vital and necessary for America are no longer subjects of significant disagreement, but are disputable only in details of procedure, priority, or method.”

If that’s true, then what’s the problem? Why do we have to maintain an artificial conflict? Every round we “drain the swamp”, yet little changes. How much change would actually be beneficial?

Muad_Dib's avatar

I mean, I would vote for JFK’s corpse if it were on the ballot. But then, I’m not a moron who thinks we don’t have to play the numbers game, and we can vote on pure principal these days.

“I don’t really like her tone of voice so I’m going to vote for the guy who jerks off to Mein Kampf” is literally the level of stupid the Democrats are up against, and half of those dipshits are centrists, and the other half extreme leftists.

We need a parliament. Yesterday.

stanleybmanly's avatar

That’s a peculiar goal considering that nothing you can cook up would better illustrate the viability of identity politics as the election of Donald Trump.

stanleybmanly's avatar

To my mind @Darth Algar hits the nail on the head. The problem with the Democrats is that the party is no longer the party of the left. The party has been operating for decades on the assumption that it need not actually push policies furthering the interests of what should be its natural constituency. The party has instead settled for not being the party of the left, but merely the party to the left of what passes for conservatism. The reasons for this are readily understandable in a system where a career in both the Congress and state legislatures amounts to an absolutely dependable road to guaranteed affluence. The truth of this is fogged over by the ability of the Democrats to erode and actually defeat most of the regressive aspects of conservative social policies, but when it comes to the economic interests of the man on the ground, Democratic politicians in the main are merely more sympathetic copies of their Republican counterparts. It’s a class thing and simple to appreciate. The surest way to deflect an idealist is to make him rich.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

I don’t think that identity politics are that large of an issue to keep Democrats from winning elections. Certainly it keeps the religious right voting right, but you know what? screw them, nothing that makes any real sense for improving the lot of peoples lives will ever be on the republican ticket if it goes against any Christian dogma. Many Republicans like myself are not Christian and are actually socially liberal. I can tell you we don’t care about identity politics that much but we care about the economy and foreign policy but mostly just maintaining or even improving a decent standard of living for the working and middle class. Address the economy and the left will convert a rather large swath of Republicans. Most of us hated Trump too but the left ran Hillary who we viewed as someone who would say and do anything just to get in office. We did not believe she was sincere and while Trump was certainly not sincere he at least promised the working class some relief. Hillary did not even bother to give that lip service. Meanwhile the left appeared to simply rally behind Hillary because she would have been the first female president. If there were identity politics that screwed the left that was it. If the left had rallied support for the working class like it has done in the past, Trump would just be a figure on TV and not POTUS.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Isn’t it peculiar that no one ever asks “how many votes for Hillary were actually votes against Trump?”

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

I know for a fact that while a minority, many Republicans actually voted for her. The left just lost too many working class votes in the end.

kritiper's avatar

@Darth_Algar How can anyone define/compare Democrats as being Centrist/Moderate if there is nothing farther left with which to define their Centrist/Moderate position?

johnpowell's avatar

Hillary won by 3 million votes. A black dude was president for the last 8 years. Trump being president is kinda like getting food poisoning when you go down on your mom. It can happen but lets not take it as a sign Democrats are dead.

LostInParadise's avatar

The problem that the Democrats have is that white working class voters have moved to the Republican party. The Democrats should not abandon minority groups just because the Republicans are using racism to appeal to non-college educated whites. It may take a while, but these people will eventually realize that the Republicans are not going to help them. Lowering taxes on the wealthy will not help the lower and middle classes. Trickle down economics is bunk. Manufacturing jobs are not going to materialize under Trump. Creating tariffs is only going to make things worse.

The Democrats can put a little more emphasis on working class values without abandoning identity politics. If the Republicans raise the specter of class warfare, the best retort is that they only talk about class warfare when we fight back.

rockfan's avatar

Democrats need to stop taking corporate money and actually represent the people. Hillary lost because she’s an establishment sellout. Trump pretended he was a populist during the election, but now he’s an even bigger sellout than Hillary.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@kritiper “How can anyone define/compare Democrats as being Centrist/Moderate if there is nothing farther left with which to define their Centrist/Moderate position?”

There is, however it does not exist in this country. We’ve had this conversation before. You didn’t seem much interested in considering the point then. I don’t particularly care to rehash that conversation now. If someone else wishes to take it up then I wish them well.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@johnpowell “Hillary won by 3 million votes.”

And this is the point that the “Hillary was unelectable” crowd keep ignoring.

Soubresaut's avatar

If the “identity politics” issue is about streamlining the Democratic message into a unifying chant, something that better shows the deeper connections between all the (superficially or seemingly) disparate issues, I think it would be a valuable thing.

I can also see how one feels overlooked if they hear a bunch of issues addressed, but none of the issues seem to apply to them specifically. If that’s what Lilla means by alienated, then I can get behind his point. I have a hard time, though, if he’s suggesting things like BLM are inherently alienating to others because of their subject matter. But then, I’ve never been one to feel alienated by discussions of diversity… Why should I feel alienated by evidence that the law is being applied unequally to people based on their skin color or ethnicity? Why shouldn’t I feel personally affected by a failure of my nation to uphold tenets imbedded in its founding documents and ideals? I can get behind reframing these issues so that others can see their universal relevance. I can get behind ditching ineffective strategies and picking up better ones… But if he’s just saying to abandon all discussion of the issues… I don’t know. How can we garner wider support for these issues if we can’t address them directly?

I think there was also an issue of message “appeal,” of “appeal politics” (if that’s a thing). I’m not sure if this is a part of the identity politics Lilla is talking about or if it’s something different.

But, for example: Although critiques shortly after the election claimed that Hillary never addressed jobs—particularly in struggling manufacturing and mining towns that were credited for pushing Trump over the electoral threshold… she did. But she wasn’t effective at packaging it in an attractive way, or getting it well circulated. When she wanted to go into specifics of her plans (on whatever topic), she would usually say “go to my website and see for yourself,” which I think muddied much of her message, and made her seem more high-handed than well-prepared… although I also think it was something she was told to do, to avoid getting too far into the “boring details.” Those details don’t make headlines, after all, not like Trump’s wild antics. The website is still up, incidentally.

Her solution to working class jobs wasn’t as attractive as Trump’s singular “trust me I can talk tough.” Her plan acknowledged the complexities of the economy, and addressed it with a multi-pronged approach (which made it harder to cover than “simple” “solutions”). She promised to bring some jobs back from overseas, but she also acknowledged that the major culprit of manufacturing and mining job loss was automation (because it is), and that most of the jobs weren’t going to come back (because they aren’t). So, she also proposed things like training and apprenticeship programs, government infrastructure projects, and investments in new industries that would create new jobs (which would, simultaneously, put the US at a competitive advantage in developing technologies… something which isn’t happening now). She struggled to efficiently convey all of this during the election, because the plan’s multi-pronged shape didn’t lend itself to snazzy phrasing.

Trump didn’t have to concern himself about how to best present nuanced solutions to complex issues, because he didn’t credit the issues their actual complexity and he doesn’t do nuance. (Then, later, he says things like “who knew [pick an item] was so complicated?”). You don’t have to agree with Hillary’s positions to recognize that they were far better researched and thought out than Trump’s. They weren’t, however, ever as appealing.

It’s not terribly appealing to say, “Look, overall things are better than they used to be, but not as good as they could be or we want them to be, and many people are still having a hard time. The whole situation is complicated and there isn’t a single cure-all, but here are several different strategies from several different directions we can use simultaneously to make it a bigger dent in the problem,” but it is more honest.

It’s much more appealing to say, “Look, everything’s getting worse. I alone can make it better because I alone can fight the mean people who are deliberately withholding obvious and straightforward solutions to your problems,” but it’s not something the promiser will really be able to back up—it may make an exciting narrative, but it’s not reality.

(I realize I’m oversimplifying the election, but this particular thread of the whole thing bothered me…)

(A lawyer and a showman walk onto a stage…)

I’m sure my “liberal” is bleeding through in spades.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Soubresaut “She promised to bring some jobs back from overseas, but she also acknowledged that the major culprit of manufacturing and mining job loss was automation (because it is), and that most of the jobs weren’t going to come back (because they aren’t).”

Exactly. But people don’t want to hear that. They don’t want to accept it, they don’t want to even acknowledge it. I grew up in Southern Illinois. Southern Illinois, like West Virginia is/was coal country. The jobs are, of course, no longer there. And it’s not just because of environmental regulations, but because of market forces.

Firstly, Illinois coal is especially dirty. Not even the Chinese want to buy it anymore. Sure it can be made to burn somewhat cleaner, but that’s a costly process. Not very attractive when there are energy sources that are cheaper and more profitable (like natural gas).

Secondly, and more vitally, as you said: automation. Even if coal made a come back to it’s glory days those jobs aren’t coming back. Not when a mine can now produce 100% of the output of a few decades ago with 50% (or less) of the workforce. King Coal is going to do what’s best for King Coal. And what’s best for King Coal isn’t paying 10 workers to do what could be done with 5 paid workers and a machine. That’s the hard truth that people don’t want to accept. They’d rather believe a comforting lie.

LostInParadise's avatar

What happens when it becomes apparent that they were lied to? Will they come to their senses and see that their interests are best represented by the Democrats?

seawulf575's avatar

Politicians in both parties need to understand the lessons that were taught with both Obama and Trump. Obama campaigned on Hope and Change. The insinuation was that he wanted to change the corrupt politics of Washington DC and the inefficiencies and ineptitude of the government. Unfortunately he went way left and started pushing the country towards bigger, more corrupt government. That is why Hillary lost…she wanted to continue down a path that most people saw as being wrong for the country. Trump won not because he is brilliant or a great leader, he won because he bypassed the political machine to reach out to the people and talk again about change. He detailed what he saw as the corruption and the bloat in our government and our country. Basically he campaigned again on the Hope and Change idea, but he was far more specific. It doesn’t mean he will be able to deliver on his rhetoric, but that is how he won. People are craving changes in our leadership in Washington DC. And for those of you that feel that Trump only campaigned to the far right of this country, you are being foolish. There aren’t enough on the far right to have elected him. There aren’t enough on the far right to even get him to win the Republican nomination. Until both parties recognize that, both are threatened. If you don’t like Trump and don’t want another Trump in the future, then you need to elect candidates that are for the good of the country and ALL the people, not just select groups.

stanleybmanly's avatar

It astonishes me that people take Obama for some sort of raging ultraleftist. The truth is that he was a moderate Democrat AT BEST, and from a historical perspective it can be argued that Obama was to the right of Nixon regarding many of the issues afflicting us today. The great failure of the Democratic party is in its refusal to actually confront the conservative juggernaut in its relentless efforts to drag the country toward the mindless stupidities reflected in such bellweather places as Kansas and Texas. The party actually is receiving the whipping it deserves for abandoning its function as the party of the left.

seawulf575's avatar

Obama is often viewed as an ultraleftist because that is what he was/is. He had many goals that were socialist in nature which is about as left as you can go. The reason that liberals today say he was a moderate is because their views of what normal is are skewed way to the left. That is one of the big reasons the Dems are having so many problems. What used to be conservative is now viewed by liberals as being Ultraright or alt-right. What used to be moderates are now viewed by liberals as being conservatives and sometimes alt-right, depending on the discussion at the time. Those that used to be moderate liberals are now being viewed by liberals as moderates. What used to be liberals are now being branded as centrist by liberals and they call the radical lefties merely liberals. They refuse the idea that there can be a radical left. The majority of the country doesn’t follow those guidelines so when the Dems try working to support those definitions, they come off looking out of touch and radically liberal. That is the path Obama was taking the country and the country, for the large part, didn’t like it.

Darth_Algar's avatar

“That is the path Obama was taking the country and the country, for the large part, didn’t like it.”

Hence why he was elected twice by some of the largest margins in our country’s history?

stanleybmanly's avatar

You have it backwards. It is in fact the right that is today extreme as opposed to its former makeup. This is why today you cannot find a liberal Republican and damned few moderate Republicans. Those few moderate Republicans who do exist are shunned as Rinos by their brethren, while 30 years ago both moderate and liberal Republicans were plentiful. Obama’s mild agenda was actually to the right of the course pursued by Richard Nixon who endorsed and sought universal single payer healthcare, rapproachment with China, expansion of welfare programs including a whopping increase in the food stamp program and so on. The democrats are on the ropes because they are no longer genuinely the party of the left, but merely the party mildly left of Republicans. The next time you think of Obama as a leftist extremist, I would ask your opinion of Lyndon Johnson.

stanleybmanly's avatar

There can indeed be a radical left, but there is scant evidence of it today, and perhaps there should be. The sad truth is that this country never in its history made as many social advances as in the days when the Weathermen and Black Panthers were raising hell.

stanleybmanly's avatar

And those socialist goals? People who toss around the idea that socialist goals are evil are usually inherently ignorant of what socialism actually means. For example, that street light on your corner, your sewers, the paved street in front of your house are all prime examples of socialism at work. Social Security, your fire and police department—straight up socialism! The Department of Public Health, the billions in relief that are going to be poured from the public coffers into Houston—SOCIALISM.

seawulf575's avatar

@Darth_Algar he was indeed elected twice. And on the second time there were instances in which 130% of the registered voters in districts cast votes. Kinda hard to do legally, but then it is faux pas to say there is voter fraud, isn’t it? So while you are trying to say he was wildly popular, might want to think about that. Also, give these a thought:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-seen-on-wrong-track-by-nearly-three-quarters-of-voters-1468760580

http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/us-right-direction-wrong-track

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/election/article70329267.html

Of course I can give you a spoiler alert: They support what I am saying all the way. So tell me, why WAS he elected twice?

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly I think you need to take a look at what a liberal believes and what a conservative stands for. Your entire argument tells me either you don’t know or assume I don’t. Your first response demonstrates EXACTLY what I was saying. Liberals believe that conservatives have moved farther to the right, not seeing that they, themselves, have actually moved way to the left. Your blindness to the violence and mayhem brought on by Antifa and BLM in their effort to support the liberal agenda is another example. You state that in the old days there might have been some, but groups like the Black Panthers are no longer raising hell. So you consider armed marches in which they chant for people to “kill the pigs” is not actually radical and instead mild and moderate. You cannot see that they do violence and therefore cannot admit there are wildly radical lefties. Socialism is far to the left. And by your last response it shows me you have no idea what socialism is. Here are some definitions to help you:

1. a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
synonyms: leftism, welfarism
policy or practice based on the political and economic theory of socialism.

(in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of communism.

Or:

1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

If you try taking those definitions and apply them to your ideas and examples, you find you are WAY off base. Paving roads are not socialism. Fire Depts and PDs are not socialism. They are services that people vote on. They usually take the form of bond efforts by a local municipality. Social Security is much closer to socialism and in my book should be done away with. Today it is nothing but a giant ponzi scheme.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@seawulf575 ” And on the second time there were instances in which 130% of the registered voters in districts cast votes. Kinda hard to do legally, but then it is faux pas to say there is voter fraud, isn’t it?”

Jesus Christ…...this tired old debunked bullshit again?

tranquilsea's avatar

Our Conservative Party (Canada) is left of your Democrat Party.

I have to say watching you guys (America) argue about policies that have been in place in Canada for decades is fascinating.

stanleybmanly's avatar

It’s rather shameful.

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