Social Question

seawulf575's avatar

Should Franken resign?

Asked by seawulf575 (2718points) 2 weeks ago

Two more accusers have come forward against Al Franken, claiming he groped them and propositioned them during photoshoots and events. Should Franken resign or should we give him benefit of the doubt?

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83 Answers

Darth_Algar's avatar

Perhaps when Moore withdraws and Trump resigns.

Rarebear's avatar

Yes. I believe he should resign.

josie's avatar

False alternative.

He probably does not deserve the benefit of the doubt (I don’t think most politicians do), nor should he resign.

He will be standing for election in 2020. I would be curious to see if the people of Minnesota are so outraged and disgusted that they throw him out.

Any bets?

President Roosevelt allegedly once said of Anastazio Somosa, one of the many Somoza dictators in Nicaragua, that ”...he may be a bastard, but he is OUR bastard.”

I bet no.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Oh @seawulf575 he’s a Democrat not one of your GOP’s. For you yes; if he was a GOP (no names or tweets mentioned) NO.

Bias Q !

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie unfortunately you make some gross and inaccurate assumptions. I am a registered independent, have been for decades. In fact I have voted for Dems, Repubs, and Indys over the years. I go by the person, not the party. Likewise I have many times stated that if one of the GOP accusees is found guilty, they should be tossed out like last week’s newspapers. If there is bias in the question it resides in the resounding condemnation of Roy Moore on the basis of accusations and of Trump on the basis of…well…nothing. Supposition, I guess, would be the closest. The question was put out to see if all those rabidly condemning Trump and Moore because of accusations and saying they should resign, apply the same feeling to Franken. And by the answers I’m seeing, the hypocrisy of most of the jellies is fully in tact. In the question, I gave the out of allowing him benefit of the doubt. That is what I have been saying for many of the accused all along. Just because someone says you did something wrong doesn’t mean you did it. I fully support the benefit of the doubt side of the coin. Now, there is photographic evidence in one case, but you could say it was a gag, not a real thing, and you might be right. However to “joke” like that speaks to extremely poor taste and a low opinion of women. Neither is a crime, but the woman did take offense.

Rarebear's avatar

I agree with @seawulf575 completely. And I am a registered Democrat.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@seawulf575

It’s not that the photo was a gag, but rather that the accuser herself was in on the gag. Her story has fallen apart like wet toilet paper. Probably why she backed away so quickly.

seawulf575's avatar

@Darth_Algar and the stories of the Moore accusers are likewise falling apart like wet toilet paper. Yet you seem to condemn him and support them regardless. As I mentioned, your hypocrisy is in tact. Live well.

Rarebear's avatar

@Darth_Algar I hadn’t heard that part. In that case then I don’t think he should resign.

kritiper's avatar

No. He knows he’s done wrong. Lets see if he can change his ways and/or atone. Besides, what has he done that every other man hasn’t???

seawulf575's avatar

And @Darth_Algar I’d love to see your source for that. I have seen her side of the story, and I saw a recent story of her appearance on The View. In that story, she read a letter she recently received from Franken apologizing for forcing a kiss on her and for taking the picture. If she was in on the gag, why would Franken have to apologize? Why wouldn’t there be more people coming forward for him saying she was in on it? I did see the one-liner where the photographer said the photo was staged and everyone was laughing and having a good time. But if you look in the photo, the guy next to Leeann isn’t laughing or even looking like he is in on anything. He looks asleep…just like her. If it was all staged as a “skit”, why was there only one photo? Why not get the kicker of her smacking him or something while laughing about it? And the only place I can find this claim is on democraticunderground which probably isn’t the most reliable source. Nope, I don’t believe the Photogs story.

Aethelwine's avatar

No. If he is convicted of a crime I will change my tune.

stanleybmanly's avatar

No need to make allowances for Franken. He is willing to submit to the will of the ethics committee in a hostile Republican Senate. Moore on the other hand must first be elected then run the gauntlet of those pressing hard for his expulsion.

LostInParadise's avatar

@seawulf, The police kept Moore away from cheerleaders, and he was banned from the local mall because of his predatory behavior. Link What Franken did was wrong, but there is an order of magnitude difference between groping adults and raping underage girls.

seawulf575's avatar

@LostInParadise Just some thoughts: At least one of those stories have all been debunked. The mall manager, for instance, can find no evidence of Moore ever being banned. And for him to be banned, there would have to be some record of it. It was just a claim from an ex-security officer. Now there is a new claim from an ex-cop that likewise sounds just as foolish and made up. And the stories of the two women that claimed he groped them/raped them are falling apart. My point is not that Roy Moore is pure as the driven snow. My point is that when it is just accusations, we need to be more open-minded. And I’m not concerned with the political party of the accused. John Conyers is facing sexual misconduct charges, but I’m not ready to start calling for him to resign or be flogged or anything. They are just accusations. In all these cases, I take the same stance: If the accused is determined to be guilty, then do what you like with them. But give the accused a chance to defend themselves before hanging them.

LostInParadise's avatar

It is not clear whether Moore was banned. At the very least, there were rumors. Why in the world would there be rumors about a state supreme court justice pestering young girls? Something is not right. Moore, in trying to defend himself, said that he asked permission of the girls’ parents. WTF? A man in his 30’s asking permission to date teenage girls?

seawulf575's avatar

I can think of a really good reason for circulating rumors about Moore: He is winning in the polls. Think about it…he was hands-down the winner effectively. His opponent was not popular enough and did not have enough support to even come close. Suddenly all sorts of rumors, accusations, and innuendo are coming out of the woodwork. It’s called a smear campaign and has been used in politics for as long as politics have been around. As for him asking permission to date a teenager: think about that. While in my world it might be creepy and I wouldn’t give my permission as a parent, what pedophile actually asks permission? And once it is not given, did he continue to pursue it? No. While this might speak to his tastes in women (girls) 40 years ago, it also speaks to his character that he would ask. Pedophiles typically (if not always) continue their efforts throughout their life or until they are arrested and and the court restricts them. Even then, they often try to continue. Moore, if considered a pedophile for chasing underage girls, doesn’t follow this mold or there would be women coming out of the woodwork claiming misconduct for the past 40 years…not just 40 years ago.

LostInParadise's avatar

Those rumors date back pretty far, according to the police and others who are interviewed. In saying that he asked permission, Moore is acknowledging that he dated teenagers. Why else would he need to ask permission?

Demosthenes's avatar

Franken should resign if it is demonstrated that he is guilty of criminal behavior. I give anyone accused the benefit of the doubt. Isn’t that what “innocent until proven guilty” means? It shouldn’t depend on what political party the accused is a member of, but that’s often how it works in practice. You’re more likely to see someone as guilty if they are on the “wrong” political side.

But even if he’s not guilty or even if his actions aren’t criminal, he may choose to resign if the negative pressure becomes too high.

Rarebear's avatar

I don’t agree with the gaslighting that people are doing here.

stanleybmanly's avatar

This ongoing effort to trivialize the accusations confronting Moore will avail him scant relief. As with the corresponding effort to elevate Franken’s misadventures to an eququivalence with those of “His Honor”. All of the useless noise arranged to deflect attention from the righteous pedophile ignores the central issue, and the ensuing ruckus confuses only the more feeble minded among the electorate, (though their numbers appear depressingly substantial).

Rarebear's avatar

I’m back to my original answer, since @Darth_Algar didn’t come up with evidence. Franken should resign. Moore should drop out of the race. Patriarchal sexism is blind to party and Democrats do not have the moral high ground here.

stanleybmanly's avatar

forget moral high ground. Are you suggesting that the charges leveled against the 2 men are equivalent?

Rarebear's avatar

@stanleybmanly Of course not. I never said it was.

stanleybmanly's avatar

ok. Thank you

rebbel's avatar

If he doesn’t, I can already see the headline in the newspaper:
Franken Stayin’

I’ll leave myself out….

stanleybmanly's avatar

Silly oafish behavior from a very smart man. How smart? Franken threw himself at the ethics committee. Any investigation of his behavior GUARANTEES an in depth scrubbing of the hapless Moore should he dare to arrive at the Senate.

MrGrimm888's avatar

This q is an obvious boobie trap.

False analogies aside, my answer is “no.” If charges are filed, and he is found guilty of a crime, yes.

I would add, if we threw out politicians for unethical behavior, we wouldn’t have any.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I’m missing how the question is a boobie trap. It is a question. Given all the accusations coming against Franken, should he resign or should we give him benefit of the doubt? Your answer says benefit of the doubt. I’m in support of that as well. Accusations are just that….accusations. I am a firm believer that a person should be innocent until proven guilty. Throwing out unethical politicians should be the norm instead of the bad joke it has become.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly I would indeed say the accusations against Moore and Franken are equivalent. They are accusations. There are no actual charges against either man. There is no proof except what has already come out. In Franken’s case, it is pretty damning since it was in photographic form. But regardless, he is still just accused.

Aethelwine's avatar

Relevant- https://medium.com/@SIIPCampaigns/a-survivors-defense-of-al-franken-ea994c5bbc9a

“Both SNL and USO stage skits are well-known to be over the top when it comes to topics such as sex, but the USO performances are even more so due to the audience of mostly military males. Since the days of Bob Hope, there have always been beautiful bombshell women showing up in scanty outfits and sexual dialogue running from innuendos to outright blatant views. If you are either a male or female performing in these shows you are expected to play along.
…. there are a number of images as well as videos appearing that show that Tweeden didn’t seem to have a problem with sexual performances on stage including that of her grabbing the butt of a Country and Western performer and rubbing her behind up against him and the singer grabbing at her butt. Additional videos of the tour have included a very sexual performance with the comedian Robin Williams as well as the real on-stage ‘kiss’ with Franken.
In this case, we have a woman that signed up for known sexually oriented skits and performances that she approved of, and rehearsed, and then performed many of them onstage in both a preplanned and ad hoc way.”

seawulf575's avatar

@Aethelwine so your stance is that the woman brought it on herself? Seems like old school chauvinist thinking, but okay. But by Tweeden’s own words, the kiss on stage wasn’t the problem, it was the forced kiss during “rehearsal” even after she declined. And Franken has even publicly apologized for his behavior in specifics. But feel free to see it however you like. That’s really what all this is about.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^That’s why these political threads become circular. Most are capable of expressing their thoughts on the subject in one response. Then, a debate over facts ensues. I find that most people make up their mind about something when they first hear of it. New/recent revelations, don’t usually tilt a person in a different direction.

I also don’t agree that she was “asking for it.” There are many shades of gray in this story, but just because she didn’t want Franken’s tongue, doesn’t mean she can’t be a sexual person. There are still rules and etiquette. In a strip club, the girls can touch you, but you can’t touch them. Some of those USO tours are like a big strip show. No doubt that she enjoyed the attention, and probably toed/crossed some lines herself, but in our society the women have more leeway there. Plus, she wasn’t going to run for public office one day. I wonder if Franken had any political aspirations when the incidents took place. If so, he screwed himself…

Aethelwine's avatar

“so your stance is that the woman brought it on herself?”

Not at all, @seawulf. The stance from the article is that she was in on the photo. Her story is exaggerated to benefit Republicans and her claims make it worse for true victims of sexual abuse. I am a true victim of rape (twice) so I can relate to what the article says.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 Franken’s situation is beyond mere accusation. The photo along with his open admission render him culpable. The consequences awaiting him should hinge on the severity of his offenses. Whether or not they are substantial to the point of costing him his political csreer is an open question. You are mistaken in the assumption that I think he deserves a pass. My view is that he did some stupid things years before embarking on a political career and those stupidities now return to bite him. If his history is enough to torpedo his career, so be it. The hurdles confronting Moore on the other hand are about a public official-an officer of the court accused of multiple incidents of undisputed heinous criminal behavior.

seawulf575's avatar

@Aethelwine The problem with the claim she was in on the pics is that Franken has apologized for the misconduct. In other words, the claims of her being in on it are a false narrative designed by the dems to do damage control. I’ve also heard the one where it was a joke…a prank…not a real thing. And if you look at the other accusations against Franken, that was his M.O. Grab some woman inappropriately, but make it look like a joke. Sometimes the woman didn’t mind (I’ve seen a number of pics of him doing this with women that aren’t accusing him of anything) and in some cases, they did.

JLeslie's avatar

^^She herself also accepted his apology. Probably because she knows a shitload of men who do things like this, and she appreciated the acknowledgment, and he does seem sincere that he regretted it and won’t be doing it in the future.

If some guy kissed me without permission I’d be beyond pissed, but I would not be calling for him to resign from his job, unless I felt like he truly was an abusive man ongoing, and women were in danger.

seawulf575's avatar

^^I agree. If a guy was in a position of power, such as your boss at work, and he was forcing himself on you, calling for his resignation might be the appropriate response if for no other reason that to keep it from happening to the next girl (or guy).

JLeslie's avatar

It’s not going to happen to anyone else with Franken. That’s my belief anyway.

And, no, I’m not always in the mind that an idiot guy at work has to be fired. It depends what he did, it might be enough to just counsel and warn him.

seawulf575's avatar

^Franken will probably have learned his lesson, but there are already a good number (4? 5?) accusations out there, so he may not. It may be who he is. But again….I tend to be the “benefit of the doubt” guy. Tweeden is a known…Franken has admitted it. But the rest are still just allegations to which I believe Franken is entitled to respond.

JLeslie's avatar

^^I haven’t called for anyone to resign or pull out of any political races. I didn’t regarding Bill Clinton when he was running for President. I felt the impeachment of Clinton was ridiculous, and a horrible waste of money and time. I do think Moore is guilty of at least some of what he was accused of.

Anyway, what I would put to you is, have you been consistent? Were you in favor of Clinton’s impeachment? Were you one of the republicans saying immoral in personal life, so he must be bad at his job? The study I linked (I don’t remember if it’s on this thread or a different one) that a majority of republicans felt Clinton could not be a good president since he cheated on his wife and wasn’t a moral man, and now the majority of republicans say it doesn’t matter. Don’t get me wrong, I see hypocrisy among liberals too, but I’m just asking you right now—are you consistent? Have you been consistent?

MrGrimm888's avatar

^He doesn’t claim to be a republican, despite his seemingly obvious leanings. Just saying…

JLeslie's avatar

^^Ok, even if he is not a republican, whatever he is, is he consistent?

MrGrimm888's avatar

^I won’t speak for him there…

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie I actually was for the impeachment of Clinton, but not for fooling around on his wife. He was impeached for perjury and obstruction of justice….two pretty serious charges for a president to have against him. In fact, I found the entire thing with Monica Lewinsky to be ridiculous. I felt Clinton handled it all badly. He tried denying, he tried lying when what he should have said was “yes, I did this and I’m sorry. I have come clean with Hillary and she has forgiven me, I hope you, the American people can forgive me as well”. At that point, the entire thing would have gone away.
But there is a slight difference between Clinton’s indiscretion and what Franken or Moore are accused of doing. In Clinton’s case, he was fooling around with a willing girl. She was all for it. In the case of Moore and Franken (or Weinstein or Spacey or any number of others), their accusers claim they were not willing. When you force yourself onto someone, whether it is sex, kissing, groping, etc…that is sexual assault and could be rape, depending on how far things went. In Clinton’s case, he was a fool. In the others, they are some various degrees of criminal, if the accusations are true. I have known people that got arrested and now have to register as sex offenders for doing nothing more than what Franken is accused. I have to ask why we insist on having two standards in this country for dealing with criminals…one for the everyday Joe and one for those with money or power.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Well. There you go. He stepped down. Is it now Trump, and Moore’s turn to be accountable for their actions?

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Republicans don’t have to have to be “Accountable” just like the Jerusalem thing will blow up into a “world wide” ISIS and Taliban war on the West.

Pence and the other fundamentalists will cheer for the “End of Days” and coming of Christ.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Franken is now a moot issue. He’s gone. His exit puts fire to the feet of his honor as another woman steps up from his past.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Right now, there are still questions. There is no solid evidence of any wrongdoing by Trump or Moore. However, as I have stated before, if they were found to be guilty of crimes, they should indeed be punished. And I don’t believe stepping down is an appropriate punishment.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@seawulf575 “Put a sock in it.”
You’re going on about it day after day that CNN, ABC, CBS, MSNBC are biased and the only unbiased news source is Breitbart (an admitted far-right news source).

Your above paragraph skips that Trump has admitted, on tape, that he “GRABBED HER PUSSY!”

The GOP is loving the pedophile and hating Franken just to build the GOP’s control of the Senate. They have said when he appears Moore will be brought up on charges, then he will be replaced by another GOP right wing Senator. (Why would the GOP want a fair election? ? )

seawulf575's avatar

Wow, @Tropical_Willie, you are really out there. Let’s take it one step at a time. Nowhere in this string have I mentioned any of the aforementioned news outlets. You are in the wrong string for that. And in that string, I never claimed Breitbart was unbiased. In fact, I have stated they were biased to the right, just as I stated all the others you list are skewed to the left. Get it straight before come out guns blazing against me.
Secondly, I never got to any Trump accusers. But in reference to the tape you are citing, again, you need to get your facts straight. He never said he grabbed anyone’s pussy. He stated that with certain women, you can do pretty much whatever you like, including grabbing their pussy. But his statement was not that he had done it. It was locker room talk. Yep, tacky and full of boasting, but meaningless. Of course the liberal media (now I am mentioning them!) wants to blow it out of all sorts of proportion and people like you take their lead and change the story to him actually grabbing some poor woman’s pussy, just out of the blue. Stop being brainwashed!
The statement about the GOP is so full of inconsistencies, I apologize if I forget to mention one. Here we go. You state that the GOP is loving the pedophile and hating Franken just to build the GOP’s control of the Senate. Then you state that the GOP will toss Moore (the pedophile) out if he gets elected. Which is it? Do they love him or hate him? I’ll give you my view of it. The GOP in the Senate don’t like Moore because he is a conservative and stands by his values. That is in direct contradiction to the views the establishment Repubs hold. They want someone that will do whatever they say. The same old crap we have had to deal with for decades from both parties. That is why Congress always has such a miserable approval rating. But that is my opinion.
Now let’s continue on. The same statement: It sounds like you feel Franken was railroaded or that the GOP tossed him out. HE SEXUALLY ASSAULTED WOMEN!!!! There was photographic evidence. He apologized for it. He has admitted it! You get all bunched up about your misinterpretation of what Trump said, but want to downplay Franken. Which is it? Is sexual assault okay or not? Or does it just depend on what side of the aisle you’re on? And Franken was not tossed out, he resigned. Of all the things he could have done to help the Dems, that was probably the best. It pulls him out of the spotlight and stops showing that yes, Dems can be scum too. Honestly, I know people that did nothing more than Franken and now have to register as sexual predators wherever they go. If nothing more happens to Franken, he will still get off lucky.
And moving on…You claim that the GOP, in this evil plan, want to replace Moore with another GOP right wing senator, and why would they want a fair election? This statement shows you are entirely clueless about how things work. First off, as I mentioned, I don’t believe they want a right wing senator at all. But that is my opinion. The FACT that you miss is called the 17th Amendment. If Moore got elected and the Senate expelled him, the 17th Amendment would kick in. That allows the state legislature to figure out how to replace him. The Federal Senate GOP have no say in it. The Alabama state legislature will follow their rules for replacement which could include allowing the Governor to appoint a replacement or holding a special election. I’m not sure of their process, but the state, again, gets to elect the replacement. And there is one other part you are overlooking…they have no grounds for expulsion of Moore. He has been accused of some ugly things, but those accusations are starting to fold like a cheap lawn chair. It is starting to look more and more like they were all made up, just to help throw the election to the Dems. Now, before you get all wound up, I have stated before and I stand by it still, if Roy Moore were actually found guilty of the things for which he is accused, I would be more than happy to watch him fry. Mine is not a biased opinion full of hypocrisy. I’m not a republican or a democrat. I am an independent. But I do believe there is a lot of hypocrisy at work in today’s world, and I will call it out whenever I see it.
So in summary…You don’t know what string you are in. You don’t bother checking facts and just take what the far left outlets tell you, or at least what they infer. You can’t make a solid stand on the topic of sexual assault. And lastly, you have no idea, and don’t care to research, how basic civics in this country work. Did I miss anything?

stanleybmanly's avatar

far left outlets?

Darth_Algar's avatar

@seawulf575 ” It sounds like you feel Franken was railroaded or that the GOP tossed him out. HE SEXUALLY ASSAULTED WOMEN!!!! There was photographic evidence. He apologized for it. He has admitted it!”

Since you are so big on people getting their facts straight then you should get your facts straight. Franken never admitted to sexual assault. He acknowledged a photograph of a dumb, sophomoric gag. As for the photograph itself goes it shows no assault nor any groping. In the photograph, tasteless as it may be, his hands are clearly not touching the woman. And an apology for any offense caused is not an admission of guilt.

Rarebear's avatar

It’s more than just an oafish photograph
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/12/i-believe-frankens-accusers-because-he-groped-me-too/547691/

And others.

Franken is a pig. He may be a liberal pig, but he’s a pig. I’m glad he’s going.

Darth_Algar's avatar

That’s reaching, to be frankly honest.

seawulf575's avatar

@Darth_Algar you are partially right. The photograph was only one piece of evidence in a much deeper claim. But I disagree with you…it looks to me as if he is touching her.
I guess if you want to say she was wearing a flack jacket so he wasn’t, that is a stretch but okay. Does that mean if you touch a woman but she is wearing a bra, it doesn’t count?
Also,remember the rehearsal where he forced himself onto Leeann Tweeden? Franken addressed that in the apology letter to her as well. He did say he didn’t remember it the same way, but he realizes he can’t discount how she feels about it. That incident was when he wanted to “practice” a kiss and she refused. He pushed and pushed and finally went to kiss her. when she went to turn her head, he held it and kissed her on the mouth, sticking his tongue into her mouth. She got pissed and warned him not to do it again. I don’t know where you come from, but that sounds amazingly like sexual assault to me. But maybe you have a different definition? I like “Non-consensual sexual touching of a person”. What is your definition?
As for the other claimants, I still stand by the idea that Franken should have the right to defend himself from their claims. He should be innocent until proven guilty. But with Tweeden, he has confirmed a lot.

Darth_Algar's avatar

“I guess if you want to say she was wearing a flack jacket so he wasn’t, that is a stretch but okay.”

No, flak jacket or not, he is visibly not making contact with her person.

Out of curiosity though, are we going to hold Tweeden herself to the same standard? She herself did a lot of groping of men on that tour as well.

MrGrimm888's avatar

My interpretation of the picture is the same. I don’t see his hands actually touching her. As @seawulf575 mentioned, it was the forced kiss, that made the picture so tasteless. I haven’t read up, on the newer accusers. I have regretfully, given up on Franken. Someone who actually, previously, gave me some glint of hope, that my blanket statements about politicians, were just pessimistic ramblings.
It’s disappointing. He could have helped this country, when it really needs help. Oh well…

Tweeden will, of course, face zero ramifications. Regardless of what she did, she still had/has rights. Franken violated them…

I’m more interested in seeing Trump, and Moore resign. If we’re cleaning house, in regards to sexual misconduct, they should both be gone.

Just because they threaten, and degrade their accusers, shouldn’t change the outcome.

Franken, apparently did some bad things. At least, he finally did the “right” thing. Even if it was just because he got caught. I felt Franken was remorseful, and saw the error in his ways. Are Moore, and Trump capable of being accountable also? I don’t know that Trump has ever been accountable for anything he’s done. He apologized for his “pussy grab” remarks. Last week he changed his tune, saying he didn’t say that, and that it was manufactured. So. So much for his one apology…

seawulf575's avatar

@Darth_Algar If someone came out against Tweeden accusing her of sexually assaulting them, I feel the same as I did about Franken, Moore, Spacey, Weinstein, and anyone else…she should be allowed to respond to the allegations. She should be allowed to defend herself. She would be innocent until proven guilty. But if guilty, she should be punished every bit as fully as any of the guys.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^If I’m not mistaken, they have film, and pictures of her being grabby. But I think it was all horny service men,or ordinary /won’t say anything men. I don’t think she has any “accusers.”

That’s where it gets even more grey. Most such tours, I wager the powers that be recommend to the ladies, to be sexual, and flirty. Hard to punish her, for doing her job. It’s a big political mess…

seawulf575's avatar

^agreed. It gets really gray when you start talking about sexual assault. There is an extremely fine line between sexual assault and consensual contact. It all revolves around the receiver of the contact. In the case of Tweeden having contact with guys, they probably welcomed it. It was fun, exciting. In the case of Franken having contact with Tweeden, it was not. It does make for quite a mess.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Yeah. At risk of a pun, I would call it a cluster fuck…

Rarebear's avatar

More than just Tweeden.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Yeah . I was referring to society’s current issue. Not a specific case.

There are SO many variables. That makes it harder to stop.

seawulf575's avatar

Those darn fusterclucks.

Darth_Algar's avatar

The point of my mentioning Tweeden’s own actions wasn’t to deflect from Franken or point fingers at Tweeden in a sorta “but she did it too”. I brought it up because it speaks to a particular atmosphere prevalent on that tour. One Tweeden herself actively participated in. In light of that I don’t really think we can hold Franken to task too much over a juvinile photo gag.

Rarebear's avatar

Yes. Exactly. And if it were just the photo gag I would agree with you. But it’s not.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Indeed, a pattern seemed to emerge. If it were just that incident, I think Franken could have rode that storm out. He clearly thought it was getting worse, not better, and maybe bailed before worse things came to light…

Rarebear's avatar

Well, he didn’t want to bail. He was forced out by the Democratic caucus. Clearly his offenses were nothing like Moore, Conyers, or Weinstein.

However, there should be zero tolerance. And now the Democrats can claim (rightly or not) the moral high ground.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^It seems pretty obvious, to me, that voters could care less. Trump was clearly the most morally deficient man to ever run for office. His public declarations of the future for women, minorities, and immigrants didn’t stop them from voting R. Trump said vile things behind closed doors, but he said equally deplorable things at podiums around the country. Preaching hate, intolerance, sexual predation, divisiveness, and xenophobia amongst other things.
The congress, which deliberately shutdown the government multiple times, and basically halted most beneficial progress, was largely re-elected.

What good, is being the morally superior party? It’s gotten the dems, and the country, nowhere.

They probably could have stuck with Franken. That way, at least they could help the country. But the liberals in their base, wouldn’t stand for that. I don’t like, or condone Franken’s behavior, but I could tolerate him in office. I’ve certainly tolerated worse…

Darth_Algar's avatar

Ah yes, the high ground has really worked out well for the Democrats so far.

Rarebear's avatar

I didn’t say that they HAD the moral high ground. I said that they could CLAIM the moral high ground.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^And I said, that that is sadly irrelevant. I think they can easily claim the moral high ground, right now. That has gotten them a republican majority, across the board. The “morally superior” dems are circling the drain, as a party. They just lost Franken too, a pillar of their party.

I agree with you, that it should matter. History says otherwise…

stanleybmanly's avatar

I agree. The Democrats are trapped with a constituency which forces them to at least present an appearance of upholding ethical standards. The GOP on the other hand is not nearly so inconvenienced. It is blessed with and increasingly defined by a low wattage contstituency convinced that any right wing ethical shortfall is merely the invention of a hostile press.

stanleybmanly's avatar

A certain paucity of intellect is required in order to swallow the notion that what passes for the left nowadays has all credible journalism in its pocket. Conveniently for the right, the bulk of those with the acuity to discern the tale as bullshit just happen to be crowded on the left. Those on the right who DO have the mental chops are of the crowd that INVENTED the myth and tend to its dissemination.

seawulf575's avatar

The problem the Dems have is that they don’t have a constituency that holds them accountable for anything. If they actually stepped up and held themselves accountable to be good leaders and would hold even their own party accountable to meet standards, they would walk away with elections, and rightfully so. And before you get bunched up…the same goes for the Repubs. They are no better. There is a reason that Congressional approval ratings are always abysmal. Obama campaign on “Hope and Change” with the idea he was against the partisan politics and the corruption in Washington DC. He failed miserably on that since he made it worse. That failure, and the blind support he got from the Dems, is what cost them the House and the Senate and the Presidency. Now we have Trump who is about “Drain the Swamp”. The Repubs are bucking that ideal so it is predictable that they will eventually lose the House and the Senate and eventually the Presidency. The issues are the same. The American people are tired of the corrupt, partisan politics that we have had to swallow for decades. They are willing to throw their lot in with anyone that seems sincere in their desire to change the way our federal government works.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Isn’t Franken stepping down just that? Accountability? ...

stanleybmanly's avatar

Yes, pushed or not, both he and Conyers took the hit, yielding the Dems the club with which to mercilessly beat Trump & Moore should he show up.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Actually it is accountability. I have stated that already…it is about the best thing he could do for the party. But let’s be honest…one example isn’t a trend. And this didn’t change the same old corrupt, partisan politics that infest our government.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Hmm. Agreed on all points…

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