Social Question

stanleybmanly's avatar

Did Putin get his money’s worth?

Asked by stanleybmanly (18447points) May 22nd, 2018 from iPhone

It appears that James Clapper’s book is the most severe indictment of Trump thus far published. Clapper states unequivocally that Trump would not have made it without the massive Russian misinformation effort

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

115 Answers

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

Helping install the least competent US president ever?

Priceless.

And the Russian expenditures were in millions, not billions.

Response moderated
Kropotkin's avatar

Clinton and her campaign team used their media links to give Trump $2 billion worth of media coverage with their foolish “pied-piper” strategy, but somehow it’s a few million $ worth of Facebook ads, and some anti-Clinton coverage on Russia Today (viewed by hardly anyone in the US) that swung it for Trump.

Risible.

filmfann's avatar

What Russia wanted was chaos in the west.
Mission accomplished.

SquirrelEStuff's avatar

This James Clapper?
https://youtu.be/zRhjgynfhag
I am not a Trump supporter, but how is Clapper being taken seriously?

flutherother's avatar

Putin has been manipulating public opinion in the US by inserting cleverly designed “news” stories into social media sites such as Facebook for some time now. The US has been very slow to appreciate the effect this might have. Zuckerberg dismissed the idea as “crazy” until late last year and even now half of America wants to shut down the investigation into Russian meddling in US elections. Putin’s experiment didn’t cost much but it has been and is still hugely damaging to western democracies.

notnotnotnot's avatar

@Kropotkin – You have to understand why the Russian conspiracy theory has such legs here in the U.S. among liberals….

- Liberals are unaware that governments are always active in attempting to influence elections of other countries.
– They are unaware that the U.S. intervenes directly in the elections of other countries all the time, including coups.
– They believe that the U.S. has a functioning media. The fact that it’s just a few large corporations, and is considered top-notch propaganda is not part of their understanding.
– They see social media as a threat to corporate media, and support corporations implementing algorithms to censor and bring power back to the corporate media.
– They have a deep trust in despicable state terror groups, like the CIA, NSA, and FBI.
– They believe that the US was already great prior to Trump.
– They believe that Democrats and Republicans differ greatly on the fundamentals.
– They fetishize civility and decorum, which is why they really object to Trump.
– They see impeachment as a worthwhile goal.
– They see risking the destruction of life on the planet worth impeaching Trump. Rebooting the cold war and antagonizing a nuclear power is all fair game.
– They are able to focus on Trump as the problem, because they were politicized by his election, and saw very little to complain about prior. Obama doing similar things didn’t bother them, because he did it with style.
– They do not disagree with Trump fundamentally.
– They do not disagree with the Republicans fundamentally.
– And while they symbolically punch right, they punch left far more often and with more passion. Liberals despise the left far more than they actually disagree with the right.

This is just a few insights on US liberals, and why the Putin/Trump bogeyman narrative is so easy a sell. Liberals gave us the very thing they now profess to loathe. And when the left doesn’t give a sh*t about the Russia/Putin/Trump corporate media story, we are immediately considered a Russian stooge. Liberals are – and have always been – the problem.

flutherother's avatar

@notnotnotnot The Russian conspiracy theory isn’t a theory. Up to now the US has charged 13 Russian nationals and three Russian firms for meddling in the US 2016 election. You can find the full indictment here

Russia’s underhand attempts to influence election results are not acceptable. It would be the height of foolishness to ignore them and make no attempt to find out the extent of it.

As a liberal myself I am very wary of the powers the CIA, NSA and the FBI have now and might have in the future but to call them “despicable state terror groups” is ridiculous.

Much of what you say is equally ridiculous and frankly, I wonder where you got it from. To finish, Liberal thought is part of the national discourse and to call Liberals “the problem” betrays a very undemocratic spirit in you.

Yellowdog's avatar

The indictments, of course, were bogus. Mueller never expected them to respond.

Concord Management and Consulting, and several others, responded. Mueller had nothing on them and requested to drop the case, but Concord wouldn’t let him. Mueller will have to come up with SOMETHING
,
Mueller cannot back up his case against at least one of those thirteen Russian firms. Lets hope all thirteen of them respond.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Yes. Everything is fake, you see….

Yellowdog's avatar

I suspect you are still clinging to the delusions from your own sources. There have been a number of judges who have thrown out or denied Mueller for lack of evidence or for probing outside of the scope of his investigation (including indictments against Paul Manafort),

The story about the Russian firm was carried in Newsweek, Politico, and U.S.A. Today, and several other sources..

The Judge denied Mueller’s request to delay the first court hearings involving the Russian firm Concord Managament. Mueller had no evidence when the judge demanded Mueller to turn it over. and Mueller has requested more time (which the judge denied).. Lawyers for Concord are holding Mueller to the indictment proceedings.

From Politico:

A federal judge has rejected special counsel Robert Mueller’s request to delay the first court hearing in a criminal case charging three Russian companies and 13 Russian citizens with using social media and other means to foment strife among Americans in advance of the 2016 U.S. presidential election.

In a brief order Saturday evening, U.S. District Court Judge Dabney Friedrich offered no explanation for her decision to deny a request prosecutors made Friday to put off the scheduled Wednesday arraignment for Concord Management and Consulting, one of the three firms charged in the case.

The 13 people charged in the high-profile indictment in February are considered unlikely to ever appear in a U.S. court. The three businesses accused of facilitating the alleged Russian troll farm operation — the Internet Research Agency, Concord Management, and Concord Catering — were also expected to simply ignore the American criminal proceedings.

Last month, however, a pair of Washington-area lawyers suddenly surfaced in the case, notifying the court that they represent Concord Management. POLITICO reported at the time that the move appeared to be a bid to force Mueller’s team to turn over relevant evidence to the Russian firm and perhaps even to bait prosecutors into an embarrassing dismissal in order to avoid disclosing sensitive information.

On Friday, Mueller’s prosecutors disclosed that Concord’s attorneys, Eric Dubelier and Kate Seikaly, had made a slew of discovery requests demanding nonpublic details about the case and the investigation. Prosecutors also asked a judge to postpone the formal arraignment of Concord Management set for next week.

The prosecution team sought the delay on the grounds that it’s unclear whether Concord Management formally accepted the court summons related to the case.

Yellowdog's avatar

StanlyBManly: Clapper left the F.B.I. in disgrace. He lied dozens of times to congress and to the American people.

He has changed his story five times in two days about spying on the Trump campaign.

A new Inspector General report will be coming out in several days.

Clapper and Comey will likely be indicted.

flutherother's avatar

@Yellowdog You should check out Concord Management and Consulting. It is a pretty dubious organisation that runs contracts for the Russian military and the Russian government and its owner Yevgeny Prigozhin, a particularly disreputable character, has close ties to Putin himself. It has been charged with funding Russia’s interference project and it now appears it is going full out to confound Mueller’s investigation.

stanleybmanly's avatar

The problem faced by defenders of Trump is that such a defense becomes increasingly problematic as the evidence accumulates. It’s bad enough that scores of individuals, senior civil servants distinguished for decades of exemplary public service are arrayed against Trump. Once the President’s public utterances, and visible aberrations are factored in, such a defense amounts to something North of the labors of Hercules. This is what we are asked to accept: Liberals are arrayed against Trump, not because he is inept and openly unfit for the office—that has nothing to do with it. They’re opposed to him because they are liberal. If you ARE conservative and notice that he is unfit for office, you too are liberal. The media reporting on the daily deluge of oafish words and thuggish bungling is liberal for paying attention; and lastly the government itself, the FBI, NSA, the entire security apparatus is in the liberal camp. In a more rational period, it would be impossible to spin such a yarn and expect credible acceptance on the part of any outside “the lunatic fringe”. The expansion of that fringe is apparently one of the thriving growth industries in the country.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

Clapper and Comey will likely be indicted

Like when the loons were all excited that Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson were going to be indicted for pointing out Bush administration deceit.

Soft-headed rubes are comedy gold. They embrace anything Fox and AM radio feed them and become tireless rabid defenders of The Truth!!!! they have received.

And they never learn.

seawulf575's avatar

Ummmm…massive Russian misinformation? Please…tell us one thing that was misinformation that had any impact on the election? In your mind it has blown up to some massive thing when, in fact, it was nothing. Any “interference” from Russia was meaningless and I would challenge all of you to list the “misinformation” that they put out and produce people that actually changed their minds on who they would vote for based on that misinformation.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

tell us one thing that was misinformation that had any impact on the election

You believe in the Clinton Body Count,. And you believe the Muslim Brotherhood was embedded in the Clinton campaign.

Just the first two off the top of my head.

Granted, that did not impact the election. You vote Republican regardless, those ridiculous lies just cemented your beliefs.

flutherother's avatar

@seawulf575 Political parties in the US spend a lot on campaign advertising. It is difficult to gauge the effectiveness of these adverts and impossible to produce lists of people who actually changed their minds as a result. That doesn’t mean the adverts are “nothing” I’m sure they have an effect. But the point is, effective or not, foreign agencies shouldn’t even attempt to influence US elections in this way and US law bans foreign agents from spending money for the purpose of influencing federal elections.

seawulf575's avatar

@Call_Me_Jay the Clinton body count and the Muslim Brotherhood items were around long before this past election. It’s time to face it….this past election was decided at the outset. You either liked Hillary and hated Trump or liked Trump and hated Hillary. There was really no middle ground in this past election. All the “interference” that Russia supposedly did was in the last 6 months leading up to the election. I don’t believe for one second that they swayed anyone. In fact, no one can even tell me one thing they aired, specifically. They “hacked” the DNC computers and gave it to Wikileaks, or so the story goes. But can anyone really tell me anything that was in the emails that were released? No. How about all those ads on Facebook. Can anyone actually recall what any of them said? For them to have been effective at changing anything, they would have to have been very impactful. You remember impactful.

seawulf575's avatar

@flutherother you are right…it is wrong for foreigners to interfere with our elections. So how do you feel about Hillary and the Dems hiring a Brit to gather data from Russians that they could use against Trump? Isn’t that foreigners interfering with our elections? And if you carry it over, the left is still using that data, gathered from foreigners, to try undoing the President. I know, there is some proof somewhere that Trump worked with foreigners and that is what counts. But it seems odd that when Dems do it, it is okay, but if Trump did it, it is horrible.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

the Clinton body count and the Muslim Brotherhood items were around long before this past election.

And you confirmed your belief in them in the past two weeks.

And I would bet real money they were advertised to you during the election. That was not random.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 The election was close enough that whatever effort the Russians committed to Trump’s election (a fact no longer disputed by any but the far out wing nuts) might have been enough to put Trump over the electoral college top. In the end though, I must grudgingly agree with you. There should be nothing a Russian or anyone else could say that would serve to compensate for the glaring VISIBLE baggage accompanying the man.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@seawulf575 . You mentioned before, that Trump had “no base.” He was not a “career politician.” If your own words are true, then the 6 months leading up to the election were extremely important. Judging by how quickly the conservatives jump at any chance to defend Trump, even if fake news stirred it, I see the conservatives as highly vulnerable to any Russian tampering. Trump personally/publicly calling for Russian hacking on Hillary, does not help his case…

I hated Hillary, but also hated Trump. It was not an either, or situation. I guarantee that if many people thought Trump had a small chance to win, voter turn out would have been different, and Trump would have lost by a landslide. Many people stayed home, assuming Hillary would walk away with it. Another possible form of Russian interference, was making Hillary look like an easy victor…

I do feel hypocritical here, because the US probably messes with almost every Democratic election on Earth. But, cheating is cheating…

seawulf575's avatar

@Call_Me_Jay I’m curious when I have confirmed my belief in them in the past two weeks. I have opinions on them of course, but I don’t remember mentioning them. If you would like my opinions I would be happy to share, but this seems the wrong question for that.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 It is my opinion, and only my opinion, that this past election had nothing to do with the candidates themselves. It was more about views of the country. Most people felt the country was on the wrong path under Obama, at least according to the polls. Something like 72% felt we were going in the wrong direction. Most people were fed up by all the corruption in Washington DC. That is what was on the table. On one hand you had a candidate that was part of the corruption and games of DC that wanted to push the country farther down the path that most felt was the wrong direction. On the other hand you had a candidate that was an outsider to DC and that was saying he wanted to put the country back onto a different path, one that was more in line with what people wanted. I’m really not sure how any advertising anywhere could have changed a preference of any voter.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@seawulf575 72% ^^^^^^ please document, not give your opinion.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

@seawulf575 You showed your belief in crackpot theories that have no basis in reality. It reflects on your judgment.

It was two months ago, not two weeks. Time flies That doesn’t change the point.

Clinton ‘also puts in place Huma Abedein who had solid ties to the Muslim Brotherhood’

‘Add to that the Clinton body count…’

seawulf575's avatar

@Call_Me_Jay So you want to go into this here? Ok. Huma Abedein does in fact have solid ties to the Muslim Brotherhood. This is a truly enlightening read and far more extensively researched than anything by Media Matters or Anderson Cooper.

http://www.shoebat.com/documents/Huma_Brotherhood_Connections_072412.pdf

As for the Clinton body count I will state it again as I have stated many times before. I am almost 60. In all that time I have known 3 people that committed suicide and one that died of an accidental shooting. I would put forth that I am fairly common among most people on this planet. Give or take a few people, I am probably statistically average. Most people know a few people that have died either by suicide or through some accident. There are probably many that also know those that have been murdered. Yet the total number of people that someone knows that died under theses circumstances (war excluded) is usually pretty low, between 0 and 10? I’d say that is a safe bet. Yet close associates of the Clintons have died in far greater numbers. what is it now…50? And there are even more than a few of those that died under unusual ways. Statistically, they are the dead people lottery winners. And the timing of many of these deaths was very convenient for the Clintons. Here’s a list I found, just so you don’t have to strain yourself trying to look it up:

1 – James McDougal – Clinton’s convicted Whitewater partner died of an apparent heart attack, while in solitary confinement. He was a key witness in Ken Starr’s investigation.

2 – Mary Mahoney – A former White House intern was murdered July 1997 at a Starbucks Coffee Shop in Georgetown. The murder happened just after she was to go public with her story of sexual harassment in the White House.

3 – Vince Foster – Former white House councilor, and colleague of Hillary Clinton at Little Rock’s Rose Law firm. Died of a gunshot wound to the head, ruled a suicide.

4 – Ron Brown – Secretary of Commerce and former DNC Chairman. Reported to have died by impact in a plane crash. A pathologist close to the investigation reported that there was a hole in the top of Brown’s skull resembling a gunshot wound. At the time of his death Brown was being investigated, and spoke publicly of his willingness to cut a deal with prosecutors.

5 – C. Victor Raiser II and Montgomery Raiser, Major players in the Clinton fund raising organization died in a private plane crash in July 1992.

6 – Paul Tulley – Democratic National Committee Political Director found dead in a hotel room in Little Rock, September 1992… Described by Clinton as a “Dear friend and trusted advisor.”

7— Ed Willey – Clinton fund raiser, found dead November 1993 deep in the woods in VA of a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide. Ed Willey died on the same day his wife Kathleen Willey claimed Bill Clinton groped her in the oval office in the White House. Ed Willey was involved in several Clinton fund raising events.

8 – Jerry Parks – Head of Clinton’s gubernatorial security team in Little Rock. Gunned down in his car at a deserted intersection outside Little Rock. Park’s son said his father was building a dossier on Clinton. He allegedly threatened to reveal this information. After he died the files were mysteriously removed from his house.

9 – James Bunch – Died from a gunshot suicide. It was reported that he had a “Black Book” of people which contained names of influential people who visited prostitutes in Texas and Arkansas.

10 – James Wilson – Was found dead in May 1993 from an apparent hanging suicide. He was reported to have ties to Whitewater.

11— Kathy Ferguson, ex-wife of Arkansas Trooper Danny Ferguson, was found dead in May 1994, in her living room with a gunshot to her head. It was ruled a suicide even though there were several packed suitcases, as if she were going somewhere. Danny Ferguson was a co-defendant along with Bill Clinton in the Paula Jones lawsuit. Kathy Ferguson was a possible corroborating witness for Paula Jones.

12 – Bill Shelton – Arkansas State Trooper and fiancee of Kathy Ferguson. Critical of the suicide ruling of his fiancee, he was found dead in June, 1994 of a gunshot wound also ruled a suicide at the grave site of his fiancee.

13 – Gandy Baugh – Attorney for Clinton’s friend Dan Lassater, died by jumping out a window of a tall building January, 1994. His client was a convicted drug distributor.

14 – Florence Martin – Accountant & sub-contractor for the CIA, was related to the Barry Seal Mena Airport drug smuggling case. He died of three gunshot wounds.

15 – Suzanne Coleman – Reportedly had an affair with Clinton when he was Arkansas Attorney General. Died of a gunshot wound to the back of the head, ruled a suicide. Was pregnant at the time of her death.

16 – Paula Grober – Clinton’s speech interpreter for the deaf from 1978 until her death December 9, 1992. She died in a one car accident.

17 – Danny Casolaro – Investigative reporter. Investigating Mena Airport and Arkansas Development Finance Authority. He slit his wrists, apparently, in the middle of his investigation.

18 – Paul Wilcher – Attorney investigating corruption at Mena Airport with Casolaro and the 1980 “October Surprise” was found dead on a toilet June 22, 1993 in his Washington DC apartment. Had delivered a report to Janet Reno three weeks before his death

19 – Jon Parnell Walker – Whitewater investigator for Resolution Trust Corp. Jumped to his death from his Arlington, Virginia apartment balcony August15, 1993. He was investigating the Morgan Guarantee scandal.

20 – Barbara Wise – Commerce Department staffer. Worked closely with Ron Brown and John Huang. Cause of death unknown. Died November 29, 1996. Her bruised, nude body was found locked in her office at the Department of Commerce.

21— Charles Meissner – Assistant Secretary of Commerce who gave John Huang special security clearance, died shortly thereafter in a small plane crash.

22 – Dr. Stanley Heard – Chairman of the National Chiropractic Health Care Advisory Committee, died with his attorney Steve Dickson in a small plane crash. Dr. Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton’s advisory council personally treated Clinton’s mother, stepfather and brother.

23 – Barry Seal – Drug running pilot out of Mena, Arkansas, death was no accident.

24 – Johnny Lawhorn Jr. – Mechanic, found a check made out to Bill Clinton in the trunk of a car left at his repair shop. He was found dead after his car had hit a utility pole.

25 – Stanley Huggins – Investigated Madison Guarantee. His death was a purported suicide and his report was never released.

26— Hershell Friday – Attorney and Clinton fund raiser died March 1, 1994 when his plane exploded.

27 – Kevin Ives and Don Henry – Known as “The boys on the track” case. Reports say the boys may have stumbled upon the Mena Arkansas airport drug operation. A controversial case, the initial report of death said, due to falling asleep on railroad tracks. Later reports claim the two boys had been slain before being placed on the tracks. Many linked to the case died before their testimony could come before a Grand Jury.

THE FOLLOWING PERSONS HAD INFORMATION ON THE IVES/HENRY CASE:

28 – Keith Coney – Died when his motorcycle slammed into the back of a truck, July 1988.

29 – Keith McMaskle – Died stabbed 113 times, Nov, 1988

30 – Gregory Collins – Died from a gunshot wound January 1989.

31 – Jeff Rhodes – He was shot, mutilated and found burned in a trash dump in April 1989.

33 – James Milan – Found decapitated. However, the Coroner ruled his death was due to “natural causes.”

34 – Jordan Kettleson – Was found shot to death in the front seat of his pickup truck in June 1990.

35 – Richard Winters – A suspect in the Ives / Henry deaths. He was killed in a set-up robbery July 1989.

THE FOLLOWING CLINTON BODYGUARDS ARE DEAD: 36 – Major William S. Barkley Jr. 37 – Captain Scott J. Reynolds 38 – Sgt. Brian Hanley 39 – Sgt. Tim Sabel 40 – Major General William Robertson 41 – Col. William Densberger 42 – Col. Robert Kelly 43 – Spec. Gary Rhodes 44 – Steve Willis 45 – Robert Williams 46 – Conway LeBleu 47 – Todd McKeehan

48 -World-renowned “space economist” Molly Macauly was brutally murdered in Baltimore park.

49-John Ashe- The former President of the UN General Assembly was awaiting trial on bribery charges when he turned up dead in June, apparently having crushed his own windpipe while lifting weights in his home…

50-Victor Thorn-Prominent CLINTON Critic VICTOR THORN Found Dead Of Apparent Suicide On His Birthday

51-Seth Rich-Still No Clues in Murder of DNC’s Seth Rich, As Conspiracy Theories Thicken

52— Joe Montano-Filipino American activist and aide to Sen. Kaine, dies at 47

53-Shawn Lucas-Death of DNC Lawsuit Processor Shawn Lucas Adds to Seth Rich Conspiracy Theories

54-Seth Rich-Family’s private investigator: There is evidence Seth Rich had contact with WikiLeaks prior to death

55-Klaus Eberwein Found Dead Before Testifying Against Clinton Foundation in HAITI COVERUP

Lots of suicides, lots of shots to the head, lots of murders, lots of plane crashes. Seems an awful lot of people they know or associate with end up dead, often as investigations are going on that involve these people. So you may think it is a crackpot theory, but let me ask…how many people do you personally know that committed suicide or were killed in hunting accidents or plane crashes or were murdered?

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

@seawulf575 Wherever you find this stuff, they aren’t doing you any favors.

The Clintons were investigated tirelessly by zealous right wingers in private and government, including years of the Starr investigation and the Benghazi crap in the house.

And all they came up with is Paula Jones.

But you’ve been told there’s a secret truth only available to sharp characters like yourself. And you buy it. It makes you look like a gullible fool who mindlessly copies and pastes anything that vaguely agrees with his prejudice.

You’re welcome for the free advice.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 So the Clintons got away with murder and more than once. I suppose the glaring injustice lies in the fact that Trump is not nearly so diabolically clever.

flutherother's avatar

@seawulf575

1. James McDougal had a history of heart disease and blocked arteries. It isn’t too surprising that he should die of a heart attack.

2. Mary Mahoney was killed during a botched robbery attempt at the Starbucks coffee shop where she worked. Carl D Cooper admitted to the crime and is serving life in prison for it.

3. Vince Foster’s body was subject to autopsy which established that he suffered a single, self inflicted gunshot wound. The story that his body was exhumed, autopsied again and his death ruled a homicide was first published on TheLastLineOfDefense.org which doesn’t state that the story was made up but notes in the About Us section “all articles should be considered satirical and any and all quotes attributed to actual people complete and total baloney” Despite this the story has been repeated on many other websites and to his shame Trump himself seemed to give it some credence during his election campaign.

I’ve gone no further but obviously anyone can post anything on the Internet and just because there appears to be a lot of detail doesn’t necessarily mean a post has been properly researched or that it is free from bias.

seawulf575's avatar

And @Call_Me_Jay and @flutherother have avoided the question. How many people have you known that have been murdered or committed suicide or died in plane crashes or died in hunting accidents? I will go back and check but I’m pretty sure you have both used the where-there’s-smoke-there’s-fire excuse with me when talking about investigating Trump. Funny how you don’t have that same attitude about murder when it could apply to a Dem darling.

flutherother's avatar

Probably around 20 or so. They all died natural deaths of one kind or another but I’m sure Shoebat could make it look like another conspiracy.

seawulf575's avatar

@flutherother you are dodging. I didn’t ask how many people you know that have died. Please note the question…how many people have you known that have died from murder, suicide, plane crashes or hunting accidents? None of these are natural causes. Then, when you get that number, compare it to the list above and tell me it is anywhere near the number that fall into that category from that list.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Mueller’s year long investigation of footsie with the Russians is a joke next to the 35 plus year effort to fabricate a single prosecutable crime against either Clinton or anyone associated with either of them. And the very best that tens of millions of dollars and 35 years of looking have produced is a single charge of lying about a blow job, a crime even the dullest of moronic Congresspeople understand they dare not impeach Bubba due to the inevitable and unavoidable “glass houses” repercussions. Mueller, on the other hand has been at it but a year, and the indictments are churning out at factory efficiencies. There is no denying that there are political motivations in the pursuit of both the Clinton and Trump regimes, and the argument must boil down to either the Clinton crowd is composed of slicker more competent criminals, or the more likely probability—there’s no meat on the “trumped”-up charges.

flutherother's avatar

@seawulf575 If you’d had read my answer to your question you would have seen that I don’t know of anyone in my circle who has died a mysterious death. Does this lend weight to your lengthy and “well researched” list. I don’t think so.

I personally checked out the first three cases mentioned in the list you provided and that was enough to convince me that it is dishonest and was put together for a purpose other than to give us the truth.

I subsequently came across a website that debunks all the other cases in your spurious list. Providing “evidence” like this does nothing for your own credibility.

seawulf575's avatar

@flutherother please don’t insult my intelligence by citing Snopes. I found nothing in that article that really disproved anything. That is pretty standard for Snopes. They make opinion and use the opinion as a claim to fact. My point is not that the long list is all true evidence that Clintons had people whacked. My point is that there is something suspicious about the number of really unnatural deaths surrounding the Cliintons. As I stated, most people know a couple suicides, maybe a murder victim throughout their entire lives. Statistically, there would be upper ends of these numbers and lower ends of these numbers. But the sheer number of plane crash victims, suicides, murders, etc around the Clintons is off the charts. And that isn’t throughout their entire lives. Most are just within the past 30 years. That makes it even worse. I would challenge you to find anyone with as many. The odds of dying in a plane crash are 1 in 11,000,000. Pretty far fetched. Yet there are 6 people on the list that died in just this way. And until anyone can actually show me that I’m the odd man out by only knowing 4…that I’m at the low end…I will continue to view this body count as being a suspicious thing.

flutherother's avatar

I don’t insult your intelligence and I believe you are as capable of checking out original sources as I am. That is one reason why I find Snopes credible and Shoebat not.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Truth hurts !
Conspiracy theory is better for propaganda and misleading the uneducated.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

—The 1992 Bush Sr campaign didn’t know about the Clinton Body Count and use it.
—The 1994 Dole campaign didn’t know about the Clinton Body Count and use it.
—The 2016 Trump didn’t know about the Clinton Body Count and use it.
—None of the police departments in the United States know about the Clinton Body Count.
—The FBI doesn’t know about the Clinton Body Count.
—None of the hundreds of local and federal prosecutors in the United States know about the Clinton body count.

It’s Top Secret information, restricted to patriots who receive The Truth!!!! from their AM radios.

seawulf575's avatar

@Call_Me_Jay so you peersonally know at least 30 people that have been murdered, committed suicide, were killed in plane crashes, and hunting accidents? If so, then please enlighten me. Otherwise all your comments are nothing but fluff and really don’t address suspicious nature of the sheer volume around the Clintons.

seawulf575's avatar

I notice there are a lot of people trying to say there is nothing to the Clinton body count thing. Except none of you are actually addressing the statistics around it. Come on people! You opened this up, I have told you why I find it suspicious, and not one of you can tell me my reasoning is wrong. If you want to bury your heads in the sand, that is perfectly fine. I have come to expect that from supporters of Hillary and Obama. But trying to put something out that really doesn’t address my concern just so you can feel better about your head being in the sand is silly.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

@seawulf575 See may last post. The idea that the truth is only known by you and hidden from the authorities isn’t plausible. You don’t have the ability to sort fact from fiction. I’m not going to engage any more. Enjoy your dotage.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 Even if we accept your premise that the Clintons are death magnets, the eagerness and dedication of those behind the 3 decade project to nail the couple precludes the likelihood that even the most skillful of criminals could pull off so spectacular a string of serial murders, be investigated nonstop, and emerge from the ordeal without a single charge, warrant or arrest. As far as I know the Clintons never achieved even suspect or person of interest status even with persistent egging on from powerful right wing interests. What is it with the right and SO many scatterbrained conspiracy theories?

seawulf575's avatar

@Call_Me_Jay understood, you really have nothing and are burying your head. Carry on.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly isn’t it you that loves the where-there’s-smoke theory when it applies to Trump? You know…on all the evils he did with Russia for which there is nothing but innuendo? Well, with the huge number of odd deaths surrounding the Clintons, why doesn’t that set off your smoke alarm? Oh wait….their liberals. Never mind.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Or maybe the difference is that with Mueller the “smoke” is generated from flames that can be seen for miles.

seawulf575's avatar

Or maybe there is no difference. If there were flames you could see for miles, there would already be charges against President Trump. Time to give up your fantasy and admit that. But at least you are consistent…trying to find justification when it applies to a conservative and burying your head when it is a liberal.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

@seawulf575 Why has there been no prosecution for all those murders? Why are you withholding the information from law enforcement? Why are you letting them get away with it?

I wouldn’t risk prison for free. Are you being paid by the Clintons?

Yellowdog's avatar

Law enforcement, even a few governors, have pursued the murders. Its kinda like O.J. Some higher official has let them go or dropped the case numerous times.

When people keep dying in the same ways before they testify, over and over, court case after court case, law enforcement may do nothing, but its a pattern that’s pretty hard to deny. Seriously,

Both Bill and Hillary have lost their law practice credentials for ethical violations. That says enough. Nothing similar has happened to Trump.

I cannot understand why so many of you still believe there is some crime, yet unforseen, involving Donald Trump. As eager and out for blood as you are and as pressured as Mueller is, if he had anything at all, it would leak—if only to justify Mueller’s existence.

Mueller and his goons have been threatening everyone associated with Trump in order to get them to sing, or compose (make something up to save themselves or their families—- Mueller has an unlimited tax-supported bankroll, those who have to defend themselves need about 25 million on average) . Still, nothing.

A lot of you are mentioning a meeting with a Russian attorney at Trump Tower—that Russian Lawyer worked for Fusion GPS—on Hillary’s team.

Fusion GPS worked with Hillary and Russians for the Steele Dossier which was used illegally to obtain a FISA warrant at least three times, to spy on the Trump campaign during and election year, This is far more serious than Jared meeting with one of Hillary’s Fusion GPS lawyers at Trump Tower. But other than that, what do you have? Nothing.

flutherother's avatar

@Yellowdog Mueller is investigating Russian interference in the democratic process in the USA. It isn’t an investigation into Trump per se. If Trump is innocent he has nothing to fear and on the contrary he should welcome a thorough investigation. But he sure isn’t acting like an innocent man.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

Law enforcement, even a few governors, have pursued the murders

Prosecutions in which jurisdictions? Who was indicted? What were the charges? When were the trials?

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

A lot of you are mentioning a meeting with a Russian attorney at Trump Tower

Nobody mentioned that. Why are you lying? Are you on the Clinton payroll, too?

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 The difference is that the Trump smoke is yielding flaming indictments, while the alleged Clinton smoke amounts to 30 years of false alarms!

flutherother's avatar

Stealing identities of US citizens to post derogatory information about political candidates on social media sites…........500,000 roubles

Employing hundreds of people to create fictitious personas and for technical and administrative support….... 1,000,000 roubles

Budget for misinformation activities in the run up to the US elections…....73,000,000 roubles. (per month)

Getting Trump elected ……….............Priceless.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Well. If you judge this site, as a microcosm of America, Putin got a deal. He wants us divided. Divided we are less powerful. Divided we are…

stanleybmanly's avatar

Considering the disarray and stark ineptitude now defining the executive branch, the Russian achievement is spectacular and will go down in history as such.

seawulf575's avatar

You know @stanleybmanly you keep talking about the disarray and ineptitude of the executive branch. But he has done quite a few things in a little over a year. And he has done it despite all the antagonism and obstructionism he has gotten from the MSM, Democrats, and some Republicans. Here’s an opinion from Newsweek showing what I am talking about:

http://www.newsweek.com/trumps-first-year-his-top-82-accomplishments-786130

I think you need to look up the definition of ineptitude. As Indigo Montoya said: “You keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means.”

MrGrimm888's avatar

^I don’t agree. But I had to GA a “Princess Bride” reference. Inconceivable!

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 Inept is the kind description of Trump regarding foreign policy. The more accurate description is the one from his own exasperated Secretary of State—-fkn moron!

seawulf575's avatar

Huh. So getting back kidnapped Americans, getting NK to at least talk about summits, and actually trying to put some legality into the Iran deal is inept. Again…I would dearly love to hear what your definition of inept is. Maybe some examples of what good looks like. Yeah…that would do. What would good look like? Please be specific. Don’t cop out with “the exact opposite of what he is doing” or “he isn’t capable of good”. Let’s hear what you think ideal foreign policy would look like.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO YES NO
Trump’s position on using diplomacy with North Korea and a summit.

flutherother's avatar

@seawulf575 Trump trying to put some legality into a deal? Now there’s an original concept.

stanleybmanly's avatar

I’m not going to bother with what my idea of competence might be. It is so much simpler to parade the examples of gross incompetence for which his nibs is legendary, if only for their sheer abundance.

Let’s start right at the top. Whatever is on Trump’s diplomatic agenda, he has proven grossly obtuse when it comes to couching such matters in any rhetoric one might regard as “diplomatic”. In fact his propensity for unnecessarily antagonizing and insulting world leaders drove his Secretary of State to that rather accurate “fkn moron” characterization (language nuanced such that Trump understands). In fact, there is actually no need to list examples of Trump’s crippling failures in this arena. The daily telecasts are chock full of them.
But worse than his tendency to denigrate and insult any and all before him, is his unfortunate habit of running his mouth to no purpose other than to display his ignorance on whatever topic involved. Indeed the man’s appalling ignorance and volatile rhetoric render him a nightmare as a negotiator, and the foreign policy interests of THIS country would be better served if someone would slap a muzzle on him and lock his ignorant ass in some White House basement closet.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly Understood, you really can’t define what good looks like, but have no problem criticizing. You recognize that you become part of the problem, right?

seawulf575's avatar

@flutherother Per the law, when this nation enters into a treaty with another nation, such as the Iran deal, that agreement has to be passed through Congress. Obama opted, as he frequently did, to do whatever he wanted, without involving Congress. So while we are talking about legality as an original concept, wanna start at the beginning? Pick a topic that you liberals are hitting President Trump on and you will likely find that Obama violated the Constitution to institute something that President Trump is attempting to undo. DACA? Illegal. Iran? Illegal.
Maybe you need to review the definition of legal.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

@seawulf575 Policies and agreements don’t have to be treaties.

You have to lay off the AM radio and right wing blogs. You’re embarrassing yourself.

stanleybmanly's avatar

This country would have had no foreign policy under Obama due to to the monumentally blockheaded and unprecedented behavior of the Republican Congress. Obama was forced to go it alone, and you can talk that silly shit about illegal all you want. NONE of his people are under indictment.

stanleybmanly's avatar

What is it about conservatives that EVERY solutiion to ANY problem is ALWAYS the mean way out. Repeal DACA, cut the school lunch program, eliminate food stamps, curtail voting rights under the pretext of imaginary fraud, close the vice on abortion rights when the effects fall ONLY on the poor, destroy the EPA after forty years of success at cleaning up the air and waters. Just what is wrong with you people?

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

@stanleybmanly Conservatives see the world as a zero-sum game.

1)
If minorities/women/the poor benefit, conservatives feel harmed.

2)
If minorities/women/the poor suffer, conservatives feel they gain.

stanleybmanly's avatar

But MOST of them ARE poor and their ranks are doomed to swell as they persist in voting DIRECTLY against their own interests.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

But MOST of them ARE poor

But not “those” poor. The “wrong” poor.

White ethnic authoritarian followers will cut off their own noses if they think blacks will suffer.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly so you agree Obama violated the Constitution? Good to know.

stanleybmanly's avatar

There you are, once again making nitwit assumptions on facts not in evidence Let me put it this way. And just to clear up the matter (hopefully) once and for all, let’s lump the Clintons in with him. IF your evil trio is guilty of anything AT ALL why hasn’t your Republican Congress and President brought the despsised three up on charges? Are they in on the coverup?

MrGrimm888's avatar

^That’s a point I’ve also made. Obama, and Bill, withstood amazing scrutiny. Hillary, and those two, are still the subjects of multiple conspiracy theories. And yet, nothing….

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly but your words: “This country would have had no foreign policy under Obama due to to the monumentally blockheaded and unprecedented behavior of the Republican Congress. Obama was forced to go it alone” say it all. Despite the law requiring some things to go through Congress, such as the Iran agreement, Obama decided it was too annoying so he went it alone. And the only way to do that is to violate the Constitution. I’m not assuming anything…I’m just stating the meaning behind YOUR WORDS. Don’t like the words? Maybe you need to rethink them. But wait! What am I thinking? You are incapable of admitting you or your liberal heroes are wrong.

stanleybmanly's avatar

they are not my heroes and you will never hear me claiming otherwise. And you know-nothing conspiracy goobers should stop embarrassing yourselves with this nonsense. Obama is a Constitutional scholar and unquestionably the best you dummies will ever see. Do you suppose for one seccond that if he had violated the Constitution, the Republican Congress would have sat still for it? Once again, it is your own ignorance that allows you to interpret my words as proof of Obama’s guilt. Pay attention. The agreement with Iran is not included in those “things required to go through Congress. Obama KNOWS the law, and you and the other conspiracy loudmouths should appreciate that unlike the current fool, he would not allow himself trapped in anything so asinine as a direct violation of the constitution. The Congress is required to ratify TREATIES, which is why Obama reached only an AGREEMENT with Iran. And there IS a difference.

flutherother's avatar

It wasn’t just Obama and the US that reached an agreement with Iran. China, France, Germany, Russia, the United Kingdom, and the European Union were equally involved.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly you truly are just too cute! If Obama had violated the Constitution…HE DID! Repeatedly. I have listed examples previously. Iran was certainly not the first time. Why didn’t the Repubs do anything? Very simple…the corrupt Dems. They would never have voted to impeach Obama even if he had pulled out a gun and shot someone on nationwide TV. And other than impeachment, there is not much you can do to a sitting president. But make no mistake…he was the most lawless president this country has ever seen. It isn’t a conspiracy theory at all. It is documented fact. What is particularly scary, though, is the brainwashed acolytes such as yourself that cannot possibly fathom their heroes were crooks.

seawulf575's avatar

@flutherother so what do you think…did they actually follow their own laws to support that deal or did they violated all the laws of their nations to support it?

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

@seawulf575 Have you reported the heinous crimes to authorities yet? Withholding the information could be a felony. Why is protecting the Clintons so important to you? How much are they paying you?

Tropical_Willie's avatar

~ ~ ~ ~At the very least I think @seawulf575 should pass this on to Roseanne so she can tweet the world. j.k.

Don’t you think so @Call_Me_Jay ? ?

MrGrimm888's avatar

Get your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty latinos!...

flutherother's avatar

@seawulf575 The Iran deal was a political agreement rather than a legal agreement. If it was law Trump wouldn’t have been able to go back on it.

seawulf575's avatar

Ok boys and girls, I’ll do it again…the long list:

(1) Used Executive Action in direct opposition to the law, and unilaterally changes the law for at least five million illegal aliens; Article 1 Section 1, ALL Legislative power held by Congress; “he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed,” Article II Section 3; Article I Section 8

(2) Ignoring Federal law requiring that each state be notified when/where refuges are being placed in their state. Article II Section 3
(3) In direct violation of ACA Law ( Section 36B ) ordered subsidies be paid under Federal Exchange. Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3.
(3) Ignored law by taking Iran Deal to UN prior to 60-day review period mandated by Iran Nuclear Agreement Review, and failed to turn over side agreements as outlined. – “he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed,” Article II Section 3
(4) Ignored Congressional Treaty Powers. Article II Section 1, Article II Section 2
(5) Operation Choke Point program – Direct infringement on 2nd Amendment.
(6) Violated statute on “Material Support of Terrorism” by returning top terrorists back to terrorist organizations. Article II Section 3; Dereliction of Duty Article II Section 4
(7) Violated Appropriations Act (DOD Section 8111) – GAO report; Article II Section 3
Ignored law that requires Congress be notified prior to any detainees being moved from Guantanamo. “he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed,” Article II Section 3
(8) Using EPA to “legislate” over States, Congress, and Federal Court; Article II Section 3; Article I Section 8; Direct violation of Presidential Oath.
(9) Appointed 24+ Federal agency czars without advice and consent of the Senate; Violation of Article II Section 2
(10) Used Executive Privilege in regards to Fast & Furious gun running scandal. When Government misconduct is the concern Executive privilege is negated.
(11) 23 Executive Orders on gun control – infringement of the 2nd Amendment
(12) Exposed identity and methods of operation of a Navy SEALs team – Illegal for a President to reveal classified military secrets. Article II Section 3
(13) 2 Executive actions mandating private health information on patients be turned over to NICS – Violation of HIPPA law.
(14) Executive Order bypassing Congress on immigration – Article 1 Section 1, ALL Legislative power held by Congress; Article II Section 3; Article I Section 8
(15) Unilaterally issued new exemptions to immigration restrictions law that bars certain asylum-seekers and refugees who provided “limited material support” to terrorists. – Article 1 Section 1; Article I Section 8 Congress shall have the Power..to establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization.
(16) Issued directive instructing ICE to NOT enforce immigration laws in certain cases. Article 1 Section 1, ALL Legislative power held by Congress; “he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed,” Article II Section 3; Article I Section 8
(17) Release of convicted illegal aliens ordered in direct opposition to law-Article II Section 3
(18) Expanded executive action for amnesty to illegal immigrant relatives of DREAM Act beneficiaries. Article 1 Section 1, ALL Legislative power held by Congress; “he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed,” Article II Section 3; Article I Section 8
(19) Executive action directing DHS that almost all immigration offenses were unenforceable absent a separate criminal conviction. Article 1 Section 1, ALL Legislative power held by Congress; “he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed,” Article II Section 3; Article I Section 8
(20) Ignoring Law (2006 Secure Fence Act) “he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed,” Article II Section 3
(21) Used DOJ to ignore section 8 of the Voting Rights Act. ” he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed,” Article II Section 3
(22) Used DOJ to prevent Arizona and Alabama from enforcing immigration laws. – 10th Amendment
(23) Information memorandum telling states that they can waive the work requirement for welfare recipients, thereby altering the 1996 welfare reform law. – Article 1 Section 1, ALL Legislative power held by Congress.
(24) Used NLRB to dictate to a business where they can do business. (Boeing Dreamliner Plant). No Constitutional authority to do so.
(25) NDAA – Section 1021. Due process Rights negated. Violation of 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th Amendments.
(26) Executive Order 13603 NDRP – Government can seize anything
(27) Executive Order 13524 – Gives INTERPOL jurisdiction on American soil beyond law enforcement agencies, including the FBI.
(28) Executive Order 13636 Infrastructure Cybersecurity – Bypassing Congress Article 1 Section 1, ALL Legislative power held by Congress
(29) Attempt to tax political contributions – 1st Amendment
(30) DOMA Law – Obama directed DOJ to ignore the Constitution and separation of powers and not enforce the law. ” he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed,” Article II Section 3
(31) Dodd-Frank – Due process and separation of powers. Consumer Financial Protection Bureau writing and interpreting law. Article. I. Section. 1
(32) Drone strikes on American Citizens – 5th Amendment Due process Rights negated
(33) Bypassed Congress and gave EPA power to advance Cap-n-Trade
(34) Attempt for Graphic tobacco warnings (under appeal) – 1st Amendment
(35) Four Exec. appointments – Senate was NOT in recess (Court has ruled unconstitutional yet the appointees still remain)
(36) Obama took Chairmanship of UN Security Council – Violation of Section 9.
(37) ACA (Obamacare) mandate – SCOTUS rewrote legislation and made it a tax because there is no Constitutional authority for Congress to force Americans to engage in commerce. SCOTUS has no authority to Legislate or lay taxes. Article I Section 1 & 8.
(38) Contraceptive, abortifacients mandate violation of First Ammendment
(39) Healthcare waivers – No president has dispensing powers
(40) Refuses to acknowledge state’s 10th Amendment rights to nullify Obamacare
(41) Going after states (AZ lawsuit) for upholding Federal law (immigration) -10th Amendment.
(42) Chrysler Bailout -TARP – violated creditors rights and bankruptcy law, as well as Takings and Due Process Clauses – 5th Amendment (G.W. Bush also illegally used TARP funds for bailouts)
(43) The Independent Payment Advisory Board (appointees by the president). Any decisions by IPAB will instantly become law starting in 2014 – Separation of Powers, Article 1 Section 1.
(44) Congress did not approve Obama’s war in Libya. Article I, Section 8, First illegal war U.S. has engaged in. Impeachable under Article II, Section 4; War Powers Act – Article II Section 3.
(45) Obama falsely claims UN can usurp Congressional war powers.
Obama has acted outside the constitutional power given him – this in itself is unconstitutional.
(46) Bribery of Senator Ben Nelson and Senator Mary Landrey. (Cornhusker Kickback and Louisiana Purchase) Article II, Section 4.
(47) With the approvalof Obama, the NSA and the FBI are tapping directly into the servers of 9 internet companies to gain access to emails, video/audio, photos, documents, etc. This program is code named PRISM. NSA also collecting data on all phone calls in U.S. – Violation of 4th Amendment.
(48) Directed signing of U.N. Firearms treaty – 2nd Amendment.
(49) The Senate/Obama immigration bill (approved by both) raises revenue – Section 7. All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives
(50) Obama altered law – (A president has no authority to alter law) Delayed upholding the Employer Mandate Law (ACA) until 2015 – Individual Mandate will be enforced. A President does not have that authority – Article. I. Section. 1. All legislative Powersherein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States; The president “shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed” -Article II, Section 3; Equal Protection Clause -14th Amendment.
(51) Obama altered law – ACA Medicare cuts delayed until 2015. Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3.
(52) Obama altered law – Enforcement of eligibility requirements for ACA delayed until 2015. Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3.
(53) Obama wavered ACA Income Verification Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3.
(54) Obama altered law – Delayed ACA caps on out of pocket expenses until 2015. (when implemented premiums will skyrocket) Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3.
(55) Obama ignored judicial order to fulfill legal obligation regarding Yucca Mountain waste. Article II, Section 3
(56) Waived Federal provision that prevents U.S. From arming terrorist groups – Article I. Section 1; Impeachable under Article III, Section 3.
(57) Directed State Department HS to ignore law barring entry to U.S. those giving political or charitable aid to known terrorist groups. Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3.
(58) Obama shelves part of the ACA Law for Insurers, extending the life of non-qualifying (according to ACA) plans until Jan. 1, 2015. Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3. Violation of the Take Care Clause, Separation of Powers.
(59) Obama waved ACA individual mandate for those that lost their insurance. Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3. Violation of the Take Care Clause, Separation of Powers.
(60) Obama alters ACA law and exempts companies employing between 50–100 full-time workers from business mandate until 2016. Article. I. Section. 1; Article II, Section 3.

But really, why do I bother? You Ostriches will just bury your heads in the sand. You are all incapable of seeing that Obama was anything other than a shining boy.

stanleybmanly's avatar

You’re right of course, and I’m certain that History will vindicate Trump as the REAL scholar and champion of the Constitution while Obama is recognized for the vile criminal and threat to our liberties that he most assuredly is.

But in all seriousness, you are probably invaluable to have here. You and yellowdog are the window on what’s cookin in the heads of people whose reasoning I don’t understand. It would be convenient to dismiss your musings as delusional, except for the sobering fact that the one thing the current political situation in this country clearly demonstrates is that ours is a land where crackpot ideas can acquire momentum.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I agree with Stanley, about you being a valued asset to Fluther.

But I’ll tell you what I said, last time you posted that list @seawulf575 . Take your list to the Police. If they don’t act, take it higher. Take it to the media. If such acts are indeed crimes punishable by law, then we should see Obama in prison soon. I mean gosh, that’s a HUGE list of crimes…

Yellowdog's avatar

Executive orders that are unconstitutional are not illegal. They are not crimes, and they DID happen en masse under Obama.

However, they can be contested and invalidated as illegal or unconstitutional. That’s why Obama’s ‘legacy” is so easy to dismantle.

A lot of court decisions are passed due to illegal, unconstitutional, or arbitrary interpretations of the law. They are usually easy to reverse or invalidate on legal or constitutional grounds.

stanleybmanly's avatar

nice goin. now explain your latest post to seawulf. And might I suggest nonconstitutional. Tell him the courts are there to determine what is flat out unconstitutional, and the courts are there to entertain his ideas. Why don’t those of his ilk seek redress through the courts to rubber stamp their allegations and assure Obama’s heinous criminality enshrined in the annals of History.

flutherother's avatar

Executive orders are simply a power that the president has to set policy. Why say they happened en masse under Obama? Obama didn’t use this power any more than his predecessors.

seawulf575's avatar

Okay, so let me understand this…If President Trump starts making laws, excluding Congress, you will all be okay with it? If he makes treaties without involving Congress you will all be okay with it? If he makes recess appointments while the Senate is in session, you will all be okay with it? After all, that is what you are telling me…it’s no big deal. If that’s what you really want, let’s go ahead and tell the President! In fact, why don’t you all write your congressmen and senators and tell them that you don’t care if President Trump follows the law or not. In fact, let’s take it a step further…what you are really saying is that the entire Russian investigation is a sham since really, it isn’t a big deal if any law was broken by the President, right?

flutherother's avatar

@seawulf575 Surely you can see that is not what we’re saying at all. Issuing an executive order is not breaking the law.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 Once again, OBAMA ENACTED NO TREATIES without Congressional ratification. Any AGREEMENT with another nation is possible through action of the executive branch alone, but IT DOES NOT BEAR THE FORCE OF LAW. Dump that hillbilly conspiracy blog site where you pick up all this ignorant bullshit , and return to our 3 dimensional existence.

seawulf575's avatar

@flutherother if you say so. However you might want to look back in history. EOs are a privilege of the office of the POTUS. However there have been other times where EOs that were issued were ruled to be Unconstitutional. So the conclusion remains the same…since you are supporting Obama’s actions so much, you would then be okay if President Trump started issuing EOs in violation of the Constitution.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly Time for you to be schooled, son. Ever hear of the Iran Nuclear Agreement Review act of 2015? Yep…that was a LAW that congress passed in May of 2015 that states the POTUS has no authority to change sanctions on Iran concerning their nuclear program unless he gets approval of Congress. He did not get that approval. It was shot down. So he looked at this LAW and unilaterally decided he didn’t need to follow it, moving ahead with his version of the Iran deal. THAT DOES BEAR THE FORCE OF LAW. IT IS A LAW THAT OBAMA VIOLATED. Get over this hillbilly belief that Obama can do no wrong. He did wrong.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Tell it to the po-po (police.)...

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 check your facts again and for the love of God stop embarrassing yourself.

Yellowdog's avatar

Seawulf is GIVING you the facts. Well documented and referenced. What part do you not understand?

stanleybmanly's avatar

Let’s begin with how and when Obama violated the Iran Nuclear Agreement Review Act.

seawulf575's avatar

May 7, 2015: The Senate passes the Corker legislation 98–1 on congressional review of an Iran nuclear deal.
July 19, 2015: The Obama administration sends the comprehensive deal and supporting documents to Congress, beginning the 60 day review period mandated by the Iran Nuclear Deal Review Act.
September 10, 2015: A vote to end debate and move to vote on a resolution of disapproval fails to reach the required 60 votes on the Senate floor. The measure fails 58–42. Four democrats joined the 54 Republicans in favor of moving to vote on the resolution of disaproval. Similar votes fail on Sept. 15 and Sept. 17.
September 11, 2015: A vote on a resolution of approval fails in the House of Representatives, 269–162, with 25 Democrats voting joining the Republicans in voting against the measure.
September 17, 2015: The congressional review period ends without passage of a resolution of approval or a resolution of disapproval.
October 18, 2015: Iran and the P5+1 formally adopt the nuclear deal. Iran begins taking steps to restrict its nuclear program. The United States issues waivers on nuclear-related sanctions to come into effect on implementation day. The EU announces it passed legislation to lift nuclear-related sanctions on implementation day.

Not that any of that matters to @stanleybmanly. It points to the fact that Obama did not have approval to embrace the Iran nuclear deal and lift sanctions, and he did so anyway. It was a blatant violation of law because, as @stanleybmanly stated before, “Obama was forced to go it alone,”. In other words, despite the law, despite the fact that Congress did not support his efforts, he did whatever he wanted. He broke the law.
Now watch….here goes @stanleybmanly burying his head in the sand…..“gotta avoid reality, gotta avoid reality, gotta avoid reality….”

stanleybmanly's avatar

It seems to me that the law requires the President to submit all documents concerning the agreement to the Congress for review. Where in the “law”. is it stated that Congressional approval of the measures is required? And since the Congress failed to disapprove of the measures, how EXACTLY did Obama violate the law? And if there is no provision in the law requiring the approval of the Congress, why do you suppose that is? Want a hint?

seawulf575's avatar

And it happens again. Head-in-sand. I’m not going to waste any more time explaining law to you. You can go look up the law, just like I did. You can read it, just like I did. The big difference is that your mind refuses to acknowledge anything that says Obama was a crook. You cannot face that. I really pity you.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@seawulf575 It is YOUR opinion that a law is broken.
I worked with a retired Army Captain, he had name for people that had legal opinions with no background in law; it was “Barracks Lawyer” they only the personal view of how the world worked and it was usually cock-eyed.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 I apologize for your frustration with “teaching me the law” But before you leave (if your pity for me isn’t too strenuous) and since you’re so hot on the Constitution, which branch of the Federal government is Constitutionally granted exclusive powers in negotiating with foreign governments)

stanleybmanly's avatar

Now now TW. We don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@seawulf575 . I bet you could start a go fund me page and raise money to have this pursued. Seriously. I bet lots of conservatives would donate. Most have a passionate disdain for Obama. I’m not sure how much money you would need, but I bet you could raise tons. Trump might personally donate.

I don’t know much about go fund me pages, or I’d make more recommendations.

Yellowdog's avatar

I think its already coming / in the works.

Information about McCabe, Comey, and the Clinton email scandal is about to be released in the Inspector General’s report, and Comey is / has already been interviewed by the Department of Justice in a criminal investigation.

The Hillary/Obama administration was involved in spying and other crimes against the Trump campaign and it is not going away, It doesn’t surprise me that you aren’t aware of the proceedings.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^We’ll see….

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly here is why I pity you and all the other fools here. You cannot face reality. It seems a very scary way to go through life. Scary for you and scary for those around you. I tell you Obama violated the Constitution. Your response is that I“m embarrassing myself and that Obama was a Constitutional scholar. I give you a whole long list of examples of where he violated the law and the Constitution. You cannot admit it…it’s all a right wing conspiracy. He’s allowed to make EOs, right? When I ask if you would be okay, then with President Trump doing all the same things, you all cannot answer, you have to dodge away from the question. Instead you go back to right wing lunacy as a response and actually try to challenge the long list by saying the Iran Deal didn’t break the law. I point out the exact law that was broken and how it was broken. We are back to “check your facts” and “stop embarrassing yourself”. You then ask for specifics on how the law was broken. I give you those and you are still in denial. You want me to do more because you just cannot admit that Obama broke the law. In the end, it doesn’t matter how much information I give you, you are incapable of admitting the truth.
I truly believe you and many others on these pages need psychiatric help in dealing with reality. When confronted by facts you don’t like you attack the person that presented them. You find excuses that make no sense to try avoiding the admission of those facts. You make claims that make no sense and you dodge direct discussions. Please, do yourself and your family a favor and seek help.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 your answers aren’t much better than those of @stanleybmanly. “Call the po-po”. Here’s the problem…his crimes were when he was POTUS. The only punishment you can give a sitting POTUS is impeachment. Now that he is out of office there really isn’t much that could be done. And while in office, the Dems were going to band together to ensure he was not impeached. Even if the House voted for Impeachment, the Senate would never carry the required votes. And that is why Obama was allowed to continue to break the law. Remember, we aren’t talking about one violation; we are talking about habitual violation of the law. The scary part of your response is that it dodges the admission of actual wrongdoing on the part of Obama. You really support a president that violates the Constitution and those members of Congress that support him. As long as it supports the liberal agenda as well. Your response speaks about you. It says you don’t view the law as applicable to those that support an ideology you like.

stanleybmanly's avatar

I don’t know what to do about you. There is just too much that you do not understand. You do not understand me, the topics we discuss, or what is right in front of you. For example, I am NOT a big fan of either Obama or Hillary, but I desperately want you to broaden your scope beyond those ridiculous and patently stupid right wing blog sites, because you obviously have both the intelligence and stamina to genuinely LEARN. Those sites are traps, and when you base your philosophy and answers here on the nonsense gleaned from them you expose yourself as both ignorant and gullible. It is crucial that you understand where I’m coming from. The Clintons and Obama are nobody’s prizes, but they are NOT what that blog bullshit purports, and you force me into a position of appearing to defend both Clintons and Obama in spite of my preferences. You cannot advance your arguments on flawed or patently dishonest information, and though your passion is admirable, the basis for it is tragic.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@seawulf575 . Apologies. I thought that I had time and again said that I don’t care about ANY politician going to prison.

Remember, I am not a Democrat. Obama was one of my favorite politicians.

For perspective, that’s like declaring your favorite cancer…

And don’t you DARE have the audacity, to call me on not holding politicians accountable for their crimes. You are throwing WAY too many stones, for someone living in a glass house

seawulf575's avatar

I rest my case

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@seawulf575 go back to reading the blogs paid for by the NRA (New Russian Agency).

Answer this question

Login

or

Join

to answer.
Your answer will be saved while you login or join.

Have a question? Ask Fluther!

What do you know more about?
or
Knowledge Networking @ Fluther