Is Trump’s decision to rescind the child snatching directive an indication of his ability to “learn on the job”?

If I understand it correctly, nothing much has changed except children and their parents may not be separated. It still doesn’t mean that all parents who claim a child is theirs can keep the child with them if they can’t prove the child is indeed theirs. Normally, any adult with a child who enters the US illegally and is arrested will have the child taken away. Supposedly it is also true if a US citizen is arrested and has a child.
So, nothing much has changed, as I understand it. It’s complex and I’m still trying to understand it all.

It just shows how poor a leader Trump is. He has rescinded the child snatching directive but hasn’t said how he will deal with the 2,300 children who have already been separated from their parents. Nor is it clear how his “zero tolerance” policy will work now immigrant children can be held for only 20 days. Trumps backing down is a stop gap measure and the situation remains muddled and confused. If Trump is learning on the job he isn’t showing many signs of it.

Again, the situation is only confusing to you because you’‘ve been receiving bad information.

The separating children from their parents and putting them in foster care has been going on since a congressional bill was made into law by congress in 1997 The Democrats thought, rightfully so, that having these minors brought here by their parents locked up with them, was abhorant—the demand was to put them with relatives or in foster care. Now, we are back to where we were pre-1997, with children detained in detention-type facilities with their parents.

At least for twenty days the congressional order will be in place.

The separation of children from parents is NOT a new policy. It has been going on since 1997 and has been a concern by some advocacy groups since 1997. I first saw this in 2000 and multiple times under the Obama administration, when more and more foriegners began storming the border.

All that has been different under Trump was a Zero Tolerance policy, signed in April, but not much has changed as far as children and parents.

BTW—why are the children we hear wailing—why are they speaking in English? “Mommy?” “Mommy-Daddy”? “I want my Mommy” I thought these were Hispanic and Portuguese or maybe Creole speaking families.

No. It’s an example of taking something away or withholding it and then expecting gratitude and maybe even groveling for giving it back. Abuser’s behavior.

Well another day the the first lady won’t be holding “little hands”, she is in Texas at a child detention center, supporting the children and try to get them returned to their parents.

How about the hundreds that were spirited out of state? How is shipping children to New York and placing them in foster care going to hep them reunite with their parents? What possible aim does this serve other than to magnify the trauma?

The concern is that families be detained in facilities such as military bases and FEMA camps—something better than jail, where families can remain together—something where medical aid, recreation, education, etc etc is possible to help people become legal citizens and not be merely a detaining facility.

I think as long as dialogue is now open, there is hope. Stop the hate and look towards a solution. This was meant as an effort to make Trump look bad, and even when you got what you demanded, you all are still bitching about Trump

Your cause was never for the children or the families. It was to smear Trump, who in no way started or exacerbated the problem. He will probably be the one to end it. But that was never your motive.

Baloney. No one has to smear Trump. Who believed the idiot
when he claimed “I have nothing to do with it. It’s the Democrats’ fault”? The tact of a warthog and integrity of a hyena.

@Yellowdog this was signed into law just a few months ago and has not been happening since 1997.
Trump went back on this because the mid-term elections are just around the corner.
Predictable.

Didn’t someone say that the presidency is not a learning on the job position? Nor entry level . Was it one of the Clintons?

@ARE_you_kidding_me So, you are saying Obama never addressed the ethics problem of children in cages?

@Yellowdog While both Obama and Trump confront the same ethical dilemma at the border, Trump seems hell bent on testing the limits on what he can get away with. The public relations catastrophe this time was certainly predictable, but his weathering of the other daily scandals, overreaching and screw ups seems to have reinforced his belief in himself as bulletproof. A true sociopath and lacking any conscience himself, he must rely on public reaction to determine what is within the borders of decency.

No. He’s just as clever as ever. He is loved by his base. He has them completely figured out. He had a few people who voted for him upset for a little bit, but I think most of those people who were upset, were never in love with him, they just voted for him with no other choice.

Every week its a new scandal—but I haven’t heard any that weren’t made up.

None of them worked, because there was no truth to them. If any of them were of any substance he would be brought down rather quickly. There were many who have tried and many who want to There has been war (‘resistance’ as Hillary declared) on this administration to the youngest members of his family since election night. But you’re really grabbing at straws.

There are people on FLUTHER who still actually believe Trump created this “crises” just a couple of months ago, as just about all of you heard on your news. Now there is confusion because it turns out most of the images they saw were four years old, and its confusing. But people need to learn from this that once again their news sources and talking heads and disgusted panel discussions lied to them in order to make Trump look bad.

Quit pretending to have the moral high ground. This wasn’t about the children. It was about Trump. Shame on ALL of you.

@Yellowdog The zero tolerance border policy that separates children from families is a new development.

I don’t think so. Trump is all about the optics and the optics on this particular policy were increasingly negative. Better to cancel the program you initiated and then claim you are the good guy for doing so and hope that your opponents are not smart enough to notice that it was you who began it in the first place and that your base doesn’t give a shit.

@Yellowdog I fear there will be no solution or compromise because, for better or worse, Trumps idea of compromise is to do it his way and that ain’t gonna happen. Give me money to build my wall and I will release the children is his idea of a negotiation tactic.

@Yellowdog If it makes you feel better, not all the children shown were screaming and crying on MSNBC. Some were playing on colorful play mats, another photo showed a decent room with nice beds. Not every photo was traumatic looking.

People know that young children need to be in contact with their parents. They get separation anxiety, and have physical withdrawal, it’s not only mental, it’s physical.

Honestly, it might be almost worse for the parents. It’s a true assault on them that they have their child taken, and then to not know when they will see their kid again? In a new country, new government, and being from a country where the government is not trustworthy.

It’s like losing a limb to not know what is happening to your kid, and I don’t even have kids, but I can imagine. If my husband was separated from me and I didn’t know what was happening I would have a level of grief and stress just from that.

You don’t need a photo to know it’s not right to take the children away. Trump said he was doing it so immigrants won’t even try to come across he said he was doing it as a deterrent. He said it, believe him. I think he does it also to excite his supporters who don’t want more Latin Americans in the country.

Open your eyes. Trump changed when the Republican Party finally started speaking out. Like I said, the churches, Ted Cruz, other republican politicians. Church leader and republicans condemned Sessions for his statements. That’s when he finally put his signature on the document.

I have never said taking children away from their parents is okay. I am saying nobody cared until they could blame this on Trump.

It was used explicitly as a tactic to damage or disparage the public’s view of Trump and his recent successes in NK and, of course, to distract from the VERY damning Inspector General’s report. A few top F.B.I. echelon members may be going to prison. Congress is holding Rosenstien in contempt for stonewalling and withholding subpoenaed documents from congress.

Using children and the separation of families this way, which both parties have shamefully ignored for years, is reprehensible. The only good that came out of it was that something may be done about it, but congress needs to get their act together and act now that the president is willing. Trump can do no more than Obama but at least it will stand for twenty days and that’s really enough time to come up with a solution,.

There are those on this website (many) who believe that Trump is putting children in concentration camps. Most of these beliefs were spread through ignorance and not malice, but Putin couldn’t have done a better job than the efforts made here to divide and deceive.

@Yellowdog I don’t think anyone thinks the kids are in concentration camps, they are comparing what is happening to a time when there were internment and concentrations camp. Comparing it to what America did to our Japanese, and what the Nazis did to Jews.

I personally do not see it as equal, and I’m not keen on dimisinshing how horrific the actual Nazi concentration camps were. But, what we are doing is pretty horrific. To a child, being taken from a parent here or Nazi Germany fundamentally what is the difference in that moment? Ok, Nazi Germany the parent might actually be murdered, but the little kid in both instance doesn’t know what’s happening, only that their mom is being taken away.

So, if Obama was doing it, where was the Republican outcry back then? They didn’t give a damn, what happened?

@Yellowdog it never ceases to amaze me how we can spin anything to meet our own preconceived biases. Retaining our own personal world view is more important than actuality.

No one should forget how the media likes sensationalism!

There WAS outcry among many people at this inhumane practice. Obama did nothing, nor was he really able to. Trump really can’t do anything that will last more than 20 days, as was true with Obama.

Congress is the only one who can get this through, and Trump can ratify it.

Although people have been aware of this for a long time, and we are all glad something CAN be done about it now via Congress, what I am offended by is the fact that the Democrats are blaming this on Trump as a midterm election stunt. And even though Trump acted on this, they are STILL saying Trump is responsible for this.

You know what else? Congress and judges on both sides will arbitrate and obstruct for political purposes and continue to blame Trump, again, because that’s the goal for midterms..

The “child grabbing” was an EXECUTIVE ORDER.

What part of he (old orange hair and bad make-up) is a drag on the country don’t you understand? ? ?

@Yellowdog The separation of children from their parents followed Trump’s zero tolerance order as night follows day. Either Trump was too heartless to care or too incompetent to understand the ramifications of his own actions. Personally, I think it was both but anyway the responsibility lies with Trump. He is president and the buck stops with him.

There is absolutely no way for Trump to wiggle out from under responsibility for this latest debacle.

Then why were so many pictures used from 2014?

Okay so it didn’t happen @Yellowdog; move along.
It was because he had security dialed up so no pictures, pictures from whenever do not negate he is a FLAMER !
HE issued the executive order to grab the kids and impose maximum pain to the people coming in for asylum . Foreigners don’t count and don’t have any rights especially human rights.
Oh don’t to worry we jumped out of the U.N. Human Rights Council, my bad.

Well, I admit we got out of a good thing, that U.N. Human Rights Council

Real experts at Human Rights because some of the most frequent violators of human rights are members. Afganistan, Nepal, Qatar, China, Nigeria, Angola, Syria, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, Rwanda, Venezuela, Cuba— among others. Only the United Kingdom, Australia ,Switzerland, and Spain have fairly decent human rights records

And your information about what happens at the border is far from reality Over ten thousand of these children and youth came over unaccompanied or with human traffickers or drug cartels.

The child grabbing was not “Over ten thousand of these children and youth came over unaccompanied or with human traffickers or drug cartels”
but delusion are delusions.

You keep making up numbers, what “right wing” blogs are you quoting? ? ?

@Yellowdog From what I understand, the US has helped to reduce human rights violations around the world because we were on the council. I see the point of not wanting to be on a council that has some horrific offenders, but being there also gives us a chance to be heard and have some influence.

I think if we are ok with Trump meeting with the leader of North Korea and signing deals, we should be ok with the US being on the council. Being for one and not the other seems incongruous to me. Or, being against one and not the other, also seems a little off.

@Yellowdog thinks it is okay for the USA to continue abusing human rights because it is what Trump wants to do.

The increase in what’s going on at the border DOES result in part from adherence to zero tolerance as opposed to catch-and-release.

But more significant factors include:

—A 250% increase in unaccompanied children coming across the border

—A 435 % increase in family units crossing illegally;

—A 1,700% increase in LEGAL asylum-seeking cases, resulting in a backlog of over 600,000 cases of persons or family units requesting asylum (these do not result in parent/child separations but create the dire need for temporary shelter in poor, overcrowded conditions while their cases are reviewed.

We do not just release or allow entry for these huge influxes of people wishing to enter our country. Among their numbers are gang members and drug cartels and sex traffickers who prey upon those legitimately seeking to migrate (legally or otherwise)

Whereas I am glad something is finally being done, the efforts to blame this on Trump, or call Trump supporters Nazis or enslavers, and ICE agents a terrorist organization, is a midterm stunt from the Left— who loves to demonize and de-humanize their political enemies with labels and caricatures depicting them in ways similar to how the REAL Nazis did some eighty years ago, and it is frightening that such people even exist today.

I repeat. There’s no need to demonize Trump. The truth is more than sufficient when it comes to his obvious repugnance. Trump plays into the hands of his detractors and betrays his followers so consistently that I don’t understand why you waste your time defending behavior which is clearly indefensible. After months of the orange ogre loudly deriding these visibly desperate people as rapists and murderers, you want us to believe that Trump is the victim of dehumanizing demonization from the left? He’s been boasting since he was elected on his intention to brutalize the people fleeing horrors beyond the risks of coming here, and like the cowardly bully he is, when called on his inhuman behavior,claims “I have nothing to do with it. It’s the Democrats’ fault.” The obvious and deliberate lie of him somehow not being responsible for this public relations catastrophe human rights disgrace is evident from the speed with which he shut it down. Your faith in the fool is beyond gullible.

@Yellowdog What are the actual numbers that go with those percentages? Percentages mean nothing without some sort of reference to the numbers they are derived from. Are we talking thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Just a few hundred?

I’m actually a little on the Republican side on parts of the immigration problems, but overall they have become so seemingly hateful, that if I have to pick a side with no middle ground and no compromise I have to go with the Democrats.

I won’t go through all the details where I’m more right or left.

When Peter Fonda tweets that we should rip Baron Trump should be ripped from his mothers arms and locked in a cage with a pedophile, or when people who work for the president on the United States are literally being run out of restaurants or harassed in their own homes, when Trump supporters are being chided as Nazis—that might indicate where the hate is actually coming from.

Could anyone have predicted that it would ever get this bad, that people are getting harassed in restaurants, have T.V. shows cancelled, have their children threatened to be placed in cages with pedophiles and riots started on college campuses when a conservative is invited to speak?

Could anyone have predicted it would ever get this bad? And WE are called the Nazis, haters, racists, homophobes. Even on Fluther.

The Right has called an illegal immigrant what they are because they are crossing the border illegally and that is called hate speech, That is calling a specific act what it is, it is not a statement of hatred.

But continually calling conservatives and especially Trump supporters Nazis, racists, homophobes, etc. that is CALLING someone something they are not. It is, in fact, what REAL Nazis did to demonize and marginalize and alienate their political opponents.

JLeslie, I think you should consider whose side your on. Stanley, you are a pretty nice guy on some issues but characterizing or depicting us as racists and Nazis and misquoting or misinterpolating acts of this administration and laws of the land, is hate speech—if it is directed against a group adhering to a particular point of view.

I am particularly leery of people and ‘resistance’ movements who harass and demonize people and caricaturize them as Nazis and Klanspersons. Those acts, and acts of harassment—are too common among the left and too similar to what actual Nazis did

@Yellowdog I know which side I’m on, I’m just disappointed by some of the actions being taken by some Democrats in the last few years, but I’ve never perfectly lined up with the mantra of the day with any party, it’s scary to me when people do.

The Republicans (not all of them) have been hypocrites and liars and against civil equality for many years now.

They were against same sex marriage (again not all republicans). Against gays in the military (the sky doesn’t seem to have fallen). Against gay adoption. Want borders much more closed than I do, I want to give out more papers so more people can be legal. Take funding away from public schools. Make abortion illegal (terrifying to me considering I had 5 pregnancies that did work out, ALL PLANNED, and if I ever needed a medical procedure in the case of a bad pregnancy with republicans like Ben Carson who doesn’t believe that happens) I might be left to die. Republicans support leaving healthcare completely up to the free market, and we have proven in the past that doesn’t work. The religious right wing of the Republican Party believes God put political leaders in place in America, which is incredibly scary to me. Republicans seem to believe God wants haves and have nots, and I want less discrepancy between the two, but I’m not saying everyone is equal regarding their career, or should be paid equally. I know too many republicans who are hateful towards Muslims. Who are angry if there is a Spanish option on the telephone system for a company. Who hated Clinton for being a womanizer, but are ok that Trump is. A smaller percentage, but still surprising, who say Obama never showed his birth certificate from Hawaii, yes he did, and still believe he wasn’t born there. Who still say things like maybe we should go back to only land owners voting (that was the Mayor of Arlington, TN on Facebook when Obama was running).

Really hard for me to identify with all of that.

Many republicans cited religious freedom for not baking a cake for a gay couple, but think it’s an outrage that someone won’t serve Sarah. I know that the cake baker didn’t win in court based on religious freedom, but my point is plenty of republicans used religion and morality as a reason to deny someone a service.

I am glad to know that some have valid points and concerns about the views many of the conservative Right-wingers hold. These are legitimate concerns. Calling someone a Nazi or Racist or throwing them out of restaurants over political views just doesn’t get it for me. This is why I became a Rightist.

I once was able to explain both political party views cogently and without bias.

During the Obama administration (I voted for Obama in ‘08) I was largely a Huckabee supporter on the Right and an Obama and even a Hillary supporter (when she was up against Obama’s second term, which she dropped out) but A Huckabee-Cruz-then a Trump Supporter in 2016 The hatred and lying and propaganda (even in the news) this country is degenerating to, even on Fluther, is alarming.

@Yellowdog I liked a lot of things about Huckabee, but I do admit his religiousity worried me a little. Not that he is religious, but the extent to which it seemed to influence him politically, but overall I felt he was a “good” man, and I agreed with him on some things. I doubt I would have ever have voted for him, but I probably wouldn’t have been very worried about him at least.

I was much more on bored Romney or McCain, even though I still would have wound up voting democrat. Both Romney and McCain disappointed me by moving much more right than they had been before running in the national election. They changed to win over the “base” of the party. My point back then is I think the “base” back then was about 50% of the party, and there is a whole 50% more that do count, PLUS independents who might be more influenced by someone more to the center in some issues.

I’m with you on hating all the name calling. We agree completely.

It’s one big mistake to believe that it is Democrats alone who gauge Trump repulsive and unfit for office. Trump’s Presidency is a crisis for the REPUBLCAN party, as the intellectual component of the party was quick to appreciate. Guys like George Will and Charles Krauthammer understand Trump’s significance regarding the absence of ethical integrity and deficit of competence.

The republican party is on hiatus right now.

@Yellowdog Ugh, I just saw what’s going around about Huckabee saying something about Pelosi being responsible for MS-13. I actually hate when he disappoints me.

MS-13 is a nightmare! It’s the reason some people I know who are democrats vote republican at the state and local level in Maryland and Virginia. They are really bad news.

Democrats should want to get rid of MS-13 the same as republicans. Republicans should not be trotting these gangs out like they represent the majority of Latin American immigrants. Both sides need to get a grip.