Social Question

chyna's avatar

What do you think of Sarah Sanders getting kicked out of a restaurant?

Asked by chyna (41171points) 3 weeks ago from iPhone

Is it too much?
I feel that it is. Anyone else that goes into that restaurant may have the same political leanings, the same backing of Trump policies, but because they aren’t the press secretary, their convictions are unknown. Also, the fact that it was in the media, from the restaurant employees, so quickly, leads me to believe it was less about the employees not wanting to wait on her because of her political stances, but rather a way to get attention.
I do not support Trump.

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153 Answers

canidmajor's avatar

Well, I hate the idea of “conviction by the Internet”, but when someone is so public a figure, and can’t be unaware that they are unpopular with a large portion of the population, I think it behooves them to recognize that this sort of thing is inevitable, and not to give these places an opportunity to capitalize on this.
The people who are (rightly or wrongly, not my call) targeted these days need to be more careful, and maybe stick to the places they know they will be welcome.

Not escalating these situations would seem to be prudent.

zenvelo's avatar

So it is okay to not bake a cake for someone because of your moral beliefs, but it is too much to not serve someone who lies to the public on behalf of the GOP administration on an almost daily basis, and justifies torturing families with terroroistic actions because her reading of the Bible says it is okay?

Nope. She signed on to support the Administration and is complicit in its violations of human rights and is an affront to human dignity.. She deserves any denial of service she receives.

stanleybmanly's avatar

I think it was a mistake on the part of the restaurant’s owner, but it’s tough to categorize the President’s mouthpiece as comprising a protected class. Sanders behaved prudently by not escalating the incident. She’s worth whatever Trump is paying her!

Patty_Melt's avatar

I don’t make it public that I’m a Trump supporter when I eat away from home. Democrats are downright evil.
She should eat where she knows she can be safe.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

A similar thing happened just north in Knoxville. I have eaten there and met the proprietor before. Don’t think I would say a single bad thing about her. Refusing service is a right the owners have and I believe should not be taken away.

RedDeerGuy1's avatar

Just as bad as O.J. Simpson being denied a steak because they where not for criminals.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@Patty Melt There was no indication that the restaurant owner is a Democrat. I found it interesting that she actually put the decision up to a vote by her staff. I would imagine that if Sanders’ dining agenda depended on the goodwill of restaurant workers she would soon starve to death.

canidmajor's avatar

Hey, @Patty_Melt, go check out how much caring and support you got on your Q about your daughter, then repeat your “Democrats are downright evil” statement.

Hypocritical, much? Geez.

Patty_Melt's avatar

It was tongue in cheek.

Within Fluther, political threads get brutal, but when someone is struggling with a life problem, most of Fluther puts on their thinking caps, and that is when I like being here.

chyna's avatar

^Political affiliations were not mentioned in the articles.

LadyMarissa's avatar

With ALL the lies that have come out of the White House, how do we know that any of this is real??? #FakeNews

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

No sanctuary for fascists. If you work against the interests of the American people, and against the values inherent in the Constitution, actively seeking to make life worse for US citizens and favoring foreign hostile powers over our allies, their will be consequences.

notnotnotnot's avatar

Like @Call_Me_Jay said, “No sanctuary for fascists.”

relevant

JLeslie's avatar

It’s too much for me. If she came to my place of business I would treat her like all my other customers, with respect and good service.

Aethelwine's avatar

but when someone is struggling with a life problem, most of Fluther puts on their thinking caps, and that is when I like being here

Most important word here is most. Not all. How well I know.

I like @zenvelo‘s response.

stanleybmanly's avatar

She is actually someone I’d love to talk to. Were she to walk into my restaurant, I’d actually buy her dinner and as much booze as she would permit. She’s one of the brighter bulbs in the notoriously low wattage Trump chandelier, and it would be fascinating to hear how she can stand there with a straight face day after day tying that bow on the turd.

johnpowell's avatar

It is time to stop thinking there is some master plan. These people were horrible all along. Now they can just say it and play the victim. Trump is exactly who he said he was during the campaign. Sanders is exactly how her father raised her.

NO MORE FUCKING EXCUSES..

These people are deplorable. Do not excuse it. Fight it. And that goes for you too Patty. Well, you won’t fight it because you are it. But you say horrible shit and you need to be shamed for it.

stanleybmanly's avatar

But don’t you ever wonder “does she really believe in this fool”? We know her job is actually about sales, but do you think she TRULY believes in the so visibly defective toxic product?

seawulf575's avatar

I think it speaks volumes about the “protesters” that stalked and harassed her. This is becoming the new norm for Trump haters.

MrGrimm888's avatar

FUCK her…

ragingloli's avatar

Well, considering that conservatives are all for it being OK for businesses to deny service to gays and black people, and that voting for Obama is a perfectly valid reason to fire someone, they should have NOOOOOO problem whatsoever with this situation.

JLeslie's avatar

@ragingloli The Republicans who support Trump are all over my Facebook crying hypocrisy that democrats got bent out of shape about the wedding cake for the gay couple, and now democrats are ok about not serving Sarah. Both sides use the hypocrisy argument.

I haven’t seen any clever retorts from my Republican friends yet explaining the difference and that the cake baker won in the Supreme Court on an artists right to have domain over what he creates. I have a feeling most people don’t even know the case was not fought over religious freedom.

The democrats can come back and say the baker always served the gay couple, except for creating a specific cake for their wedding.

filmfann's avatar

Sarah’s approach to her job as spokesperson to the President has been to belittle, demean, and dismiss reporters, our rights, and the Constitution. Her defense of Trump is an insult.

It should be added that the restaurant in question is now receiving death threats and hate mail. The wait staff, which includes Hispanics, were uncomfortable serving her, and asked their boss if they could refuse service, rather than spitting in her food.
I say fuck that bitter, hateful, stroke faced idiot.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

It’s probably better she got kicked out once she was spotted. That’s not mayo sister and the coffee tastes funny for a reason.

Darth_Algar's avatar

Considering how reliant the food service industry is on immigrant workers why would anyone in this administration go out to eat anywhere in the first place? They have to know there’s a good chance they’ll be unwittingly ingesting a lot of ball sweat.

chyna's avatar

—you guys are grossing me out.—

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 If nothing else, these protests are an indication of just how virulent and extensive the resistance is to Trump and his policies. The dummy is catching hell now from people generally more passive and quiet.

KNOWITALL's avatar

TBH, I think it’s nice to know exactly what people stand for and I’m glad there are social ramifications. Just like I said when we were discussing true racists, let them see that the world thinks they’re insane.

That being said, I personally wouldn’t publicly shame people because I don’t think people deserve that in that setting, but I’d probably write her a note and drop it off at the table. Reason over violence.

stanleybmanly's avatar

No, there’s poetic justice in the unhappy people she turns to for food showing her hungry ass the door!

notnotnotnot's avatar

And don’t forget the recent dining experience Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen had.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@KNOWITALL

They did not publicaly shame Sanders (though lord knows she’s earned it). The establishment’s owner respectfully spoke with her in private and politely asked her to leave. Sanders, however, did use her platform as White House Press Secretary to publicly shame the restaurant.

gorillapaws's avatar

This is about personal responsibility. If you’re complicit in publicly promoting and supporting horrible things that hurt people, you may have to face consequences of your personal actions, and that includes people not being nice to you.

notnotnotnot's avatar

@KNOWITALL – This op-ed (“Stop Shaming Trump Supporters) is not relevant to the discussion.

Sanders is not a Trump “supporter” – she is “Trump” (part of the administration that is destroying people’s lives). Punching up is always acceptable and necessary.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@KNOWITALL

Of no relevance to my post or the topic.

KNOWITALL's avatar

Yes, it was too much. The Left is taking it too far.

Two senior Trump administration officials were heckled at restaurants. A third was denied service. Florida GOP Attorney General Pam Bondi required a police escort away from a movie about Mister Rogers after activists yelled at her in Tampa — where two other Republican lawmakers say they were also politically harassed last week, one of them with her kids in tow.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/06/25/liberals-attack-bondi-sanders-trump-667934

zenvelo's avatar

The left has finally taken a page out of the Tea Party playbook when Democratic lawmakers were heckled relentlessy and needed police escorts to get away from mobs.

ragingloli's avatar

Bunch of SNOWFLAKES, those Drumpf functionaries, amiright.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@zenvelo Better remember which side the NRA is on…lol

Hey, I’m a moderate who’s voted for both, everyone’s nuts right now imo.

gorillapaws's avatar

@KNOWITALL “Better remember which side the NRA is on…lol”

Are you implying that assignation is equivalent with heckling?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@gorillapaws No, I’m saying that things could get deadly if Liberals get off on stalking Reps with a license to carry, especially in their private lives and involving children. Not real smart.

LuckyGuy's avatar

The ruling that allowed the baker to refuse service to the gay couple pretty much opened the flood gates for this type of behavior.
I recently saw that a Walgreens pharmacist refused to fill a prescription that would have ended the pregnancy of a woman with a fetus with no heartbeat.

I guess it’s open season now for all sides – not just the religious right and conservatives.
Extremism sucks.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@LuckyGuy I agree. I don’t see it getting better anytime soon. I hope the Libertarian party picks a great candidate, because I think they have a chance in 2020 due to all this nonsense.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly These protests show that liberals have no common decency. It shows that they are willing to stalk and harass people. It shows that their viewpoints are SO important to themselves that they don’t feel like actually behaving like civilized people. And that people, such as yourself, are trying to find ways to justify their behavior, makes my observation about liberals even more valid. You would have been there if you could have. You see nothing wrong and everything right in their actions.

canidmajor's avatar

Oh, lordy, there they go again. <eyeroll>

RedDeerGuy1's avatar

I think that it is the only way to get back at the Republicans until the next election. The democrats are getting desperate and don’t want to wait till the mid term election. They want to skip the election and go straight to impeachment.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@seawulf575 you are assuming!
Liberals, centrist or anything not HARD right is reacting to the Sanders and all of Trumps dictator moves. So you stay hard right.
I’m waiting for him to tweet he’s president forever, ala “Poppa Doc”

canidmajor's avatar

@RedDeerGuy1: you are mistaken. Rendering this down to an either/or scenario is oversimplified and foolish.

RedDeerGuy1's avatar

@canidmajor Sorry I thought I had a good point. Maybe there is another view point? Are we missing some info?

canidmajor's avatar

@RedDeerGuy1, like I said, it’s not an either/or scenario, it is muc( more complex. You rendering it down to “the Democrats are…” is an over generalization.

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie I’m not assuming anything. You never saw this sort of behavior out of conservatives, even when Obama was violating the Constitution at will. You only see this sort of behavior out of liberal groups. So let me ask a straight out question: Do you approve of stalking and harassing people just because you want to?

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@seawulf575 you are once again a Constitutional expert, (it wasn’t conservative enough) Give me DOCUMENTED examples.

Not from a right wing blog.

They’re not being stalked or harassed, they are public figure with dumb or non-existent ethics.

canidmajor's avatar

Running over a peaceful protester with a car does a lot more harm than refusing service to someone whose presence might dramatically disrupt one’s business. Just sayin’.

And I’m out.

zenvelo's avatar

If a woman can’t go to Planned Parenthood for a routine pap smear without being screamed at and harassed by Christian protestors then Stephen Miller shouldn’t be able to eat his fucking salad without being called an asshole.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I think it’s great. People like Sanders, should be shamed and ostracized. There should be no tolerance for the type of agenda the administration is pushing, or their behavior.

If you walk around with a swastika tattoo, you’re going to get some push back from society.
If I were Sanders, I would be ordering out. I am proud of the people in my country who are getting so fed up that they’re acting. I hope they throw these awful people out in November.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 You really take the cake. Listen to yourself! “Liberals have no common decency” You want to accuse people of bad manners for shaming villains hotly engaged in snatching babies and terrorizing children. Trump’s snatching babies, but it’s the liberals who are uncivilized? And you can stop all that nonsense about conservatives being better mannered than their liberal counterparts. These protesters are contesting your idiot President actively separating parents from their children, while your crowd goes crazy over stupid rumors of Obama snatching their guns.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

You never saw this sort of behavior out of conservatives

After Ted Nugent threatened to shoot Obama, US Rep. Steve Stockman brought him to the House for the State of the Union address in 2013.

And as mentioned above, women are harassed going to Planned Parenthood for healthcare. There is an office 400 yards from where I sit, and conservatives camp out there regularly to intimidate women and make them miserable.

MrGrimm888's avatar

People like Sanders are going to have to be accountable for their actions. They want to be racist, but enjoy life as if they’re not. Fuck that. Own your bigotry, or stop crying…

stanleybmanly's avatar

You want to know the difference between liberals and conservatives? We may protest and even harass powerful idiots for obscene behavior, but you can always depend on conservatives to pick on the weak and defenseless. Trump is the worst sort of bully and a proven coward to boot. He is a walking insult to “common decency”.

notnotnotnot's avatar

@seawulf575 – What you are expressing is a version of civility fetish (a desire for people to be civil in the face of brutality). Sanders, anyone in the Trump administration, and frankly any public official not actively fighting against the actions of the administration deserve a lot more than being uncomfortable for a couple of minutes when they go to eat. But making their public lives uncomfortable is the bare minimum that is required when faced with this fascist shit.

You know what needs to happen here, and it isn’t as civil as being thrown out of a restaurant. It’s what should be done to all authoritarian, racist, xenophobic, anti-human regimes.

JLeslie's avatar

Even Joy Behar, who has been to the hilt in being outspoken about hating Trump, afraid of him and his followers, trying to warn people about him and what she calls his fascist Hitler ways, even she thinks not serving Sarah was wrong.

I was surprised Joy had that response.

stanleybmanly's avatar

The only thing I find wrong is the fact that Sanders was ambushed mid meal. Had I been the proprieter, I would not have chosen that route. But I also would not have come up with the brilliant idea of allowing those doing the work to make the decision. I hope the owner made the point of letting Sanders know that the staff voted her out. The owner of the restaurant showed character in her behavior and in the end would not allow the Sanders’ crowd to pay for the meal. She’s a class act.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Yeah. I think if I were the owner, I would have let her finish her meal and then politely told her not to return. After she paid the bill, in the remote chance that she’s a good tipper.

That being said, I’m pleased even more knowing that bitch didn’t even get to finish her meal. She’s more insulting to the press, than being asked to leave. I have NO doubt that if she could chose which reporters to “talk” to, she would be throwing reporters out left and right. She’s very much like Trump. She can dish it, but she can’t take it

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

I was surprised Joy had that response

No surprise. Wealthy people who only interact with wealthy people identify with their group.

They do not identify with terrified Central American kids who are torn from their parents and thrown into cages.

To them it’s an abstract subject on par with choosing a Starbucks frappuccino on the way to work.

On the other hand, the View hosts do identify with the press secretary who works in a prestigious office and mingles with them at parties.

They are horrified that “people like us” might be inconvenienced and embarrassed because other people are fighting for their lives.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Oh yeah. Many of the wealthy, are detached from reality. I remember when GH Bush was either running, or was POTUS, and he was in a grocery store. They were showing him how they ring up items, with the bar code. He was perplexed. He hadn’t done his own shopping, in a LONG time.

I worked at a gas station once. A lady, in a fancy Mercedes Benz, had no clue how to put gas in her car.

When you’re that far removed from most of society, you’re like retarded.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly You seem to forget in your fervor to harass and run down our president that it was the previous president that started this policy. Obama started the policy of separating children and parents. And yes, he was a liberal. If anything, President Trump is trying to undo the horrible policy. Funny, though…it wasn’t a problem until President Trump picked up the policy. Why is that, do you think? That question goes to the rest of you hypocrites on the left. Where was your outrage when Obama started this policy? Who were you ambushing in public then?
” We may protest and even harass powerful idiots for obscene behavior, but you can always depend on conservatives to pick on the weak and defenseless.” So in your book, a mob surrounding an individual or a family that are minding their own business isn’t picking on the weak and defenseless? You really do live in a fantasy land.

seawulf575's avatar

And I have a question for all you fascists that support the stalk-and-harass ideals: Are you going to feel the same when someone starts doing that to your liberal darlings? After all, what is required to start acting like an unruly mob…the feeling that you want to, right? All you have to have is a feeling that the person you are attacking is wrong. So if Barry Sanders or Hillary Clinton or Elizabeth Warren or Nancy Pelosi suddenly get harassed by a mob, you would be okay with that, right? After all, there are plenty of things to protest, provided you don’t agree with their policies, right?

notnotnotnot's avatar

@seawulf575: “ou seem to forget in your fervor to harass and run down our president that it was the previous president that started this policy. Obama started the policy of separating children and parents. And yes, he was a liberal. If anything, President Trump is trying to undo the horrible policy. Funny, though…it wasn’t a problem until President Trump picked up the policy. Why is that, do you think? That question goes to the rest of you hypocrites on the left. Where was your outrage when Obama started this policy? ”

You can play the hypocrisy card, but you’d better understand what that means. Let me help you understand. Obama is a piece of shit, was a horrible president, and his policies caused great suffering in the world. He deserved all the shit he got from the left. He wasn’t called “Deporter-In-Chief” for nothing.

The fact that liberals suddenly care about immigration policy is a great sign, and it’s nice to have more people speaking out. And there is some hypocrisy there – because where were they the past administration. However, they are here now. They have woken up to the horror of US immigration, and that is a good thing. It took the escalation of the Trump administration for them to get there, but you can’t just hide behind “hypocrisy”. The person beating someone with a baseball bat can’t claim to be right because someone else was just beating the person with a smaller bat. Put the fucking bat down, you monster.

@seawulf575: “And I have a question for all you fascists that support the stalk-and-harass ideals: Are you going to feel the same when someone starts doing that to your liberal darlings?”

I sure hope so. The left’s fear is that liberals will go back to sleep (like they did during Obama, after some progress during GWB).

@seawulf575: “After all, what is required to start acting like an unruly mob…the feeling that you want to, right? All you have to have is a feeling that the person you are attacking is wrong.”

You know how cute you’re playing. Come the fuck on. When someone is wrong about something and it causes human suffering and death, then it’s immoral to stay silent. To stay civil and allow the machine to continue is immoral. These “mobs” that you’re crying about don’t exist. But they should.. Being asked to leave a fucking restaurant that is run by the people whose lives are directly threatened by you, is the civil thing to do.

@seawulf575: “So if Barry Sanders or Hillary Clinton or Elizabeth Warren or Nancy Pelosi suddenly get harassed by a mob, you would be okay with that, right? After all, there are plenty of things to protest, provided you don’t agree with their policies, right?”

Yes. Yes. Yes. If they express support for and implement policies that result in the suffering of people, then yes.

Fuck all of the Republican/Democrat tribalism. Ask yourself what is right and wrong. And stop being so fucking cute. You’re not auditioning for some Fox News shitshow.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 What are you talking about? Even at dinner time there is nothing weak or defenseless about Sarah Sanders who wasn’t mobbed but pulled aside and asked politely to leave. And you can spare me
any lecture on idiot conservatives supposedly holding the moral high ground. Whatever Obama started, he didn’t bungle and screw up to the extent of the loudmouthed dummy who brags to his moronic followers about just how viciously he plans to persecute defenseless and desperate KIDS. You would do well not to include Obama in any sentence with Trump. The contrast is blinding and would be painful if you had the sense of a doorknob. You are correct in stating that Obama turned away immigrants and set records doing it. And he was criticized mightily for doing so. The difference is—and this is important—he had the good sense not to brag about it! The current fool doesn’t understand that kicking desperate defenseless people around is nothing to brag about, and in his eagerness to outdo Obama, the clown rushed willy nilly as (he does every time) to step up detentions without any planning or preparation, and suffered the public beating and humiliation he so richly deserved. The man has the character and integrity of a slug. And instead of owning up to his catastrophic mistake, he offers the lame explanation “it’s the Democrats fault”. Your man isn’t fit to tie Obama’s shoes.

JLeslie's avatar

If someone in the Obama administration had been asked to leave a restaurant in the middle of dinner, because the staff hated Obama the liberals would have gone insane. If you think that isn’t true then I just don’t know what to say. People would have been all over social media and regular media saying it was another instance of racism and hate and that you can’t discriminate against who you want to serve in a restaurant.

Be honest.

People think there’s a difference? Well, that’s because you are not considering that to the conservative, Obama was scary. Some of them saw him as a socialist dictator taking down the country. Some others did add in alll that Muslim, Black, hateful stuff, but even those who weren’t racist, there were still plenty of people who were frightened with him in office.

You say Sarah had protection, she’s with an enterage of protection? Again, would you be ok if it happened to someone on Obama’s staff? Would you be afraid that now restaurant owners would feel permission to not serve people who don’t have protection? Most members of Congress don’t have security with them.

What if you have on a button that says Obama or Democrat? There’s a woman here who walks around town with her Democrat buttons on, and this is a majority Republican area. Should she be denied being served?

Don’t you think people will now feel permitted to deny service to people just because they don’t like their politics?

The only way I see out of this current political situation is grass roots. We need to be nice to each other, it’s fine to demonstrate and protest and speak out, but we need to listen to each other, and VOTE.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@JLeslie

You don’t get it, do you? This isn’t simply a private citizen voting Republican. This is someone who works for, and publicaly represents, an administration that is doing everything in its power to

- undermine democracy and turn America into a fascist dictatorship
– to marginalize and further disempower the weakest and and most vulnerable among us
– to erode what little progress has been made in civil rights for LGTB folks
– to shit all over every standard of civility and decorum this country has held

You cannot act uncivil towards others then demand civility in turn. And you cannot send the clear message to folks that “you are not welcome here” then in turn expect to be welcome in their house (this was an establishment staffed with immigrants and LGBT folks).

Sarah Huckabee Sanders is reaping the harvest that she has sown.

JLeslie's avatar

^^I do get it.

Look, Democrats are freaked out that when the president says hateful racist things it inspires people to feel free to say racist things, and act out in racist ways. That he is increasing the bigotry in America. You don’t get my point that treating people in the administration like this inspires people to feel free to do it to anyone and everyone they disagree with. It works all the way around. It’s not a good example.

You may see it as different to do it to someone in government, and in fact I agree it’s different, but a lot of people won’t see the difference they will see it as permission.

Stop thinking everyone is as smart, or as analytical as you. Let’s say you are in the top 10% for intelligence and smarts. That means 90% of the population isn’t as intelligent as you! Deal in reality. Deal with how it looks. Try to understand the other side, because there are a lot of people on the other side. I think asking her to leave HELPS republicans gain ground. It backfires.

I am all for speaking out against the government. Taking a knee. Right to assemble. But not for violence, nor for not serving someone in an open to the public restaurant. Essentially, a restaurant is a public place according to the law, not simply a private business. It’s very tricky. Are you going to argue the law doesn’t protect Sarah to be served? Basically that’s prjbably true, white people are not protected probably, also there is not protection specifically for politics, but I’d argue that discrimination laws at the heart of the law are to protect everyone, and to have equality in public spaces.

Would you have been OK with a restaurant refusing service to Obama’s people? If they said it was upsetting their staff?

Darth_Algar's avatar

@JLeslie

No, you really don’t. You just glossed over my entire point.

notnotnotnot's avatar

@JLeslie: “I do get it.”

No, you don’t.

JLeslie's avatar

We just disagree. Whatever.

People are now buying up gift certificates at the restaurant. Some people are saying they want the money donated to immigrants coming over from south of the border.

Go get you some gift certificates and show your support.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie I get it, too, I just don’t agree with bullying tactics or public shaming. Especially when their friends and family are involved.

For example- I’m an elected official, I signed up for my position knowing full well what that could bring as far as backlash or negative sentiment over my votes.

I’ve made a few votes that weren’t popular (to say the least) but I’m not assaulted, or shamed or publicly ridiculed. That is reserved for a council meeting, or an open forum dialog. When I go to the grocery store and see an opponent on an issue, that’s still my neighbor so I don’t treat them poorly and they don’t treat me poorly.

I assure you that if you brought it to me in my face or spitting or anything rude, to my family or my home, there would be legal action taken immediately.

Honestly, I feel like some of you are passionate about things, which I love, and making yourselves heard, which I love. But to me this is crossing the line, calling for action like Maxine Waters. If someone did the same to her, there would be all kinds of outrage.

Dutchess_III's avatar

It would appear the move was good for business.

gorillapaws's avatar

@KNOWITALL If you were participating in passing laws that ripped apart children from their parents, then yes, you would be a monster and I would have no sympathy for people saying rude shit to you while you went about your life. People who commit atrocities SHOULD be shamed. That goes for Obama and his buddies too. They’ve done some pretty heinous shit.

There’s a difference between “we’re going to forcibly separate children from their parents” and “we’ve had a heated discussion, but our council has decided in a narrow vote to collect trash on Tuesdays instead of Wednesdays.” These are basic human rights violations and there is no excuse for that.

seawulf575's avatar

@notnotnotnot Talk about cute! You are just adorable that you learned how to use the word “fuck”. Dumas. The fact that you think Obama caught crap from the left shows how out of touch with reality you are. Obama should have been impeached for multiple reasons and he was protected from the left. He lied to the public about many things and got justification from the left. To claim now that the left actually did something to him? Please. Grow up.
You are blaming President Trump for all the immigration woes. That tells me how out of touch you are as well. He has asked and tried forcing Congress to do something about immigration. They refused, on both sides of the aisle. The president is left with little option. He is supposed to enforce the laws. Immigration has a lot of laws. I personally have mixed feelings about separating children from their parents, but I think about a couple things that clear up those feelings quite a bit. (1) Human trafficking exists and many are exploited coming across our borders or are brought across our borders for bigger profits. Children are particularly vulnerable. We need to make sure that the people with the children are actually safe first. (2) We separate American families and take children away from their parents for far less than taking them on high-risk journeys and violating a number of laws to get into another country. If a single mother breaks a law that results in her going to jail, her children are taken from her and placed into protective custody. How is this really any different? (3) I feel that these parents are absolutely horrible to be doing this in the first place. They are endangering their children’s lives and it might be for the best that the children are taken from them. If their lives in whatever land they come from is that bad, they can enter into this country as easily as walking up to the border entry port and asking for asylum. That is a legal way of entering and a whole lot safer than what they are doing. You went on and on about how if someone is doing something immoral and dangerous you shouldn’t stay silent. Yet you are amazingly silent on these illegals and the threat they pose to their own children. Hypocrite much?
Your proviso of IF and THEN on protesting is exactly my point. You are setting yourself up as the sole deciding factor on what should or shouldn’t be acceptable for mob behavior. That is exceptionally arrogant of you. Why can’t conservatives who view liberal policies as being dangerous start doing the same thing to liberals that believe in them? You seem to think that liberal policies are the only good and therefore the only ones that are allowed to use mobs to support them. Might want to look at your ego a little closer, though you will probably need a bigger mirror to see it all.

notnotnotnot's avatar

@seawulf575 – Either you can’t read, or you are responding to someone else’s comment.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly as always, your grasp of reality is warped. Sarah Sanders and her family were asked to leave by the owner of the Red Hen for nothing other than working in the Trump Administration. That in itself is screwed up in so many ways. They left and Sarah and her husband went across the street to another restaurant. But the story doesn’t end there. The owner of the Red Hen followed them out and had already organized a group of “protesters” who then harassed the other that had been with Sanders. So yes, they had a mob and they were harassing others…and not just those that worked for President Trump. So tell me again about how tolerant and rational the left is?
You are right about the difference between President Trump and Former President Obama. Trump hasn’t violated the Constitution that he was sworn to uphold. He hasn’t sold automatic weapons to drug cartels. He hasn’t lied to America about the death of an Ambassador by blaming a YouTube video. There are stellar differences between the two. But if you notice, I’m pretty careful about how I use the two in a sentence. As for blaming the other party? Wasn’t that Obama’s defining trait? He blamed Bush for 4 years, blamed the Repubs for ideas that he, himself, thought up and generally did everything except take responsibility.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@gorillapaws Sure, I understand your outrage, too bad the American issues aren’t a big deal, or worth screaming at politicians about.

Nationally over 7 million U.S. children come to the attention of Child Protective Services each year according to a Children’s Bureau 2015 report.

37% of American children are reported to Child Protective Services by their 18th birthday (African American children are reported at 54%)
1 in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys will be sexually abused before they turn 18 years old.13
34% of people who sexually abuse a child are family members.
Sign up for KARA’s weekly INVISIBLE CHILDREN Friday morning e updates (free) stay informed
3% of girls were age 10 or younger at the time of their first rape/victimization, and 30% of girls were between the ages of 11 and 17.
96% of people who sexually abuse children are male, and 76.8% of people who sexually abuse children are adults.
325,000 children are at risk of becoming victims of commercial child sexual exploitation each year.
The average age at which girls first become victims of prostitution is 12 to 14 years old, and the average age for boys is 11 to 13 years old.
4 million childrenreceived prevention & post-response services.
Highest rateof child abuse in children under one (24.2% per 1,000).
80% of child fatalitiesinvolve at least one parent.
Estimated that between 50–60% of maltreatment fatalities are not recorded on death certificates.

http://www.invisiblechildren.org/2017/12/29/child-abuse-statistics-the-best-resources/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4cSkzufx2wIVnLjACh0znwSbEAAYASAAEgLDRfD_BwE

Only about one out of every 14 incidents of elder abuse (including self-neglect) in domestic settings actually come to the attention of local or state authorities.
Only one out of every 25 cases of financial exploitation are reported. These unreported incidents would increase the amount to 5 million victims of financial exploitation per year (2).
Another study out of the National Elder Abuse Incidence Study indicated that about 20 percent of cases of neglect, exploitation, abuse or self-neglect are reported.
In 1996, about 450,000 US adults who were 60 years of age or older suffered from some kind of abuse or neglect in home settings. When cases of self-neglect were factored in, the incidence of elder abuse rose to about 551,000 cases, according to the National Elder Abuse Incidence Study.
According to Long-Term Care Ombudsman programs in 2003, there were more than 20 thousand complaints of exploitation, neglect and abuse coming from nursing homes and assisted living facilities. The most common type of abuse reported was physical abuse.
The most recent studies indicate that 7–10 percent of the elderly suffered from at least one episode of abuse within the past year. Ten percent were cases unrelated to financial exploitation.
https://www.nursinghomeabusecenter.com/elder-abuse/statistics/

The suicide rate among middle-age and older adult Veterans remains high. In 2014, approximately 65 percent of all Veterans who died by suicide were age 50 or older.
https://onceasoldier.org/veteran-suicide-rates-by-state/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9anGjujx2wIViYbACh3YIw02EAAYAiAAEgJn2_D_BwE

gorillapaws's avatar

@KNOWITALL If politicians were passing laws that compelled people to rape children, or abuse the elderly then I agree that they should ALSO be publicly shamed. I’m not aware of any politicians currently working towards increasing child rape/abuse and elder abuse.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@gorillapaws Like this, in Maxine’s state?

Hey, I’m not a big fan of Trump or Sanders, don’t get me wrong, I just don’t believe this is appropriate adult behavior, and certainly not something to teach younger generations watching confrontation instead of working from inside the system to change things. I want them to run for office themselves, not scream at people they disagree with. That’s my point.

https://yournewswire.com/california-pedophiles-marry-kids/

gorillapaws's avatar

@KNOWITALL Yeah, if a judge authorizes the marriage of a 10-year-old to a pedophile, he should be shamed publicly too.

Would you treat him kindly, knowing what he did to that child’s life?

Dutchess_III's avatar

The parents also have to give permission and THEY should be publicly shamed.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@gorillapaws I wouldn’t publicly shame anyone, that’s what the legal system is for, addressing wrongs.
My own father is one of the worst humans I know and I wouldn’t publicly shame him either, and my anger towards him is huge and justified- took him to court.
I’ve known victims of rape & molestation to not publicly shame their abuser when they live in the same town, they took it to court as they should have.

You literally are shaming someone for doing their job- see description below. She isn’t creating the laws or enforcing the laws.

The White House Press Secretary is a senior White House official whose primary responsibility is to act as spokesperson for the executive branch of the United States government administration, especially with regard to the President, senior executives, and policies.

gorillapaws's avatar

@KNOWITALL You’re talking about private citizens, and I’m talking about public officials who are complicit in human rights violations. There’s a major difference, and I know you’re smart enough to understand that. And just because she’s a press secretary doesn’t excuse the fact that promoting policies with lies and propaganda is also harmful. I hate to jump to Nazi Germany, but to make the point obvious, the propagandists who made it possible were just as evil as the guys doing the genocide back then. Clearly Sanders isn’t a Nazi, but she is an important part of the machine that’s doing horrible things to other human beings.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Being a victim is not the same as being a bystander. As a victim you may not want to publicly shame your abuser because you may not want what happened to you to be public knowledge. If you’re not a victim, you can’t take them to court.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@gorillapaws Wrong, that position is not approved by the senate or the public. Not a public official, more like a civil servant-by definition. Kidnapping her children? It’s literally soliciting a crime!

https://youtu.be/yn-GWFJlmg8

The press secretary serves by the appointment and at the pleasure of the president; the office does not require the advice and consent of the U.S. Senate, though because of the frequent briefings given to the media, who in turn inform the public, the position is still a very prominent non-Cabinet post.

A government official or functionary is an official who is involved in public administration or government, through either election, appointment, selection, or employment. A bureaucrat or civil servant is a member of the bureaucracy. An elected official is a person who is an official by virtue of an election.

Darth_Algar's avatar

It isn’t simply that Sarah Huckabee Sanders works for the Trump administration. Lots of people do. It’s that she’s mouthpiece for his wannabee dictatorial regime, and that she’s every bit as hostile, petty, vindictive and bullying as her boss is. People aren’t taking her to task because of where she works, they’re taking her to task because of how she behaves and the policies she agitates for. Her and her boss want to destroy families and dehumanize people who aren’t white, straight and Christian. I’m suppose to feel empathy for her because she didn’t get to finish a cheese platter? Boo-fucking-hoo.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Darth_Algar I don’t believe that threats to kidnap someone’s children is ‘taking her to task’, let’s not be polite about it, it’s a criminal act punishable up to 20 years in prison.

seawulf575's avatar

@Darth_Algar You know? I find your comments funny. Because much of the description you have for the Trump administration actually applies to the Obama administration. Except he was trying to destroy families and dehumanize people who WERE white, straight, and Christian. Beyond that? Pretty much word for word applies to Obama. Wannabe dictatorial? Check. Bully? Check. Probably the key difference between the two is that President Trump actually wants to enforce the law instead of side-step it.

notnotnotnot's avatar

@seawulf575: “Because much of the description you have for the Trump administration actually applies to the Obama administration. Except he was trying to destroy families and dehumanize people who WERE white, straight, and Christian.”

What the fuck? Do you really believe this crazy shit? Seriously? Are you ok?

Darth_Algar's avatar

@KNOWITALL

I hardly think being asked to leave a restaraunt is comparable to threats to one’s children. If someone has made some credible threat then by all means: investigate it. But I fail to see how that’s relevant to a business owner declining to provide service to her (something she’s ordinarily in support of until she’s the one on the receiving end).

MrGrimm888's avatar

In many conservative minds, it seems that anything that helps others somehow is against them… @seawulf575 is a great example.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@seawulf575

I’m going to address you this once -

Frankly, you bring absolutely nothing to any topic here. From every post of yours I see I get no impression that you are in any way interested in honest, however heated, discussion. Your posts read like the postings of someone who’s only aim is to disrupt, distract and shit up any given thread you enter. As such I have deemed you not worth my time or consideration. I would have you on ignore if this site had such a feature. So now you know my stance and can save your efforts and trawl where you might have more success.

KNOWITALL's avatar

I agree with @seawulf575, this is hypocrisy.

MrGrimm888's avatar

No. This is reality. People are finally getting so fed up with the administration that they are taking their frustrations to the actual culprits.
If people can’t take the heat, they shouldn’t be in the kitchen.
When you are deliberately hurting so many people, you should be shamed. I hope there comes a time when people like here are booed out of every place they go. There isn’t a single good or service that doesn’t have employees that are negatively affected by the current administration. Why should the actors be able to enjoy any of it?

In a way, this administration is making America great again. People are standing up to a tyrant. Bravo America. Bravo…

Dutchess_III's avatar

No, THIS is hypocrisy.

seawulf575's avatar

@Darth_Algar I guess it can only be honest if heated discussion if everyone agrees with you. Other than that you get offended. Sorry boss, I generally don’t agree with you on most topics. I am curious though…is there a topic to which we would agree? Obviously politics is out.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@seawulf575 He isn’t talking to you remember? haha

@Dutchess I don’t debate cartoons.

MrGrimm888's avatar

It’s not a cartoon though. Those are direct quotes, straight from Trump’s lips. Truthfully, there is much more to choose from, but paper is only so big…

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Okay, so let me get this straight. Because Trump says things like in your cartoon, which I have not verified factually btw, then it’s a free for all, we can all just do or say what we want. Threaten criminal acts, bully, harass, etc…

So you’re doing what Trump says now? But he’s a jerk and ruining the country? Or what’s good for the goose is good for the gander mentality? Wow, I get it now.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Oh brother @KNOWITALL. OK:

Here is the Washington Post. The headline reads, “Sarah Huckabee Sanders says Trump has never ‘promoted or encouraged violence.’ She is very wrong.”

August of 2015”….and said that kind of thing would be physically stopped at one of his events.
“I don’t know if I’ll do the fighting myself or if other people will,” he clarified.”

November of 2015: “Get him the hell out of here, will you, please?” Trump said of a protester. “Get him out of here. Throw him out!.... “...maybe he should have been roughed up.”

Feb 2016:“If you see somebody with a tomato, knock the crap out of them.”

March 2016: ”...the audience hit back, and that’s what we need.”

March 2016: “I don’t know if I would have done well, but I would have been out there fighting, folks. I don’t know if I’d have done well, but I would’ve been — boom boom boom boom.”
Trump then mouthed, “I’ll beat the crap out of you.””

March 2016” “In the good old days this doesn’t happen because they used to treat them very, very rough.”

There is more.

I suppose you don’t do research either. I supposed I have to track down the videos @KNOWITALL?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess_III Are you being snide with me?
I didn’t ask you to provide any information or video’s to me at all.

Dutchess_III's avatar

You said you don’t do cartoons, ergo you dismissed Sarah Sanders flat out lying on behalf of her boss. She said he has never encouraged violence, and I provided multiple examples of where he did exactly that.
I was wondering if you will accept the evidence in a form other than a cartoon, even though it says exactly the same thing as the cartoon did.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess_III Okay, so Sarah Sanders lied for her boss and you’re calling that hypocrisy. Got it.

So that is your defense against people like Maxine Waters and Peter Fonda’s comments?
They are hypocrits so they deserve their kids to be kidnapped or public shaming?

Geez, and you think you know people.

seawulf575's avatar

Apparently the same people that don’t like what President Trump says, like doing what he says.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Of course it’s hypocrisy @KNOWITALL! What would you call it?

I haven’t quite figured Maxine Waters out..not sure what her agenda is. Actually, I was going to ask a question about her.

This is the first I’ve heard about Peter Fonda making any comments.

Where in the hell did “kidnapping their kids” come into this debate? The only kids being kidnapped, as far as I know, are the children of immigrants, and people like Trump and Sanders are behind it.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess_III It was a statement, I said I got it?

Again, Sarah doesn’t make policy in any way, shape or form.

Kidnapping
“A Hollywood actor publicly encouraged people to kidnap my children,” Sanders continued.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/06/25/sarah-sanders-trump-red-hen-restaurant-671779

Peter
https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/20/politics/peter-fonda-baron-trump-secret-service/index.html

https://www.westernjournal.com/ct/peter-fonda-slammed-after-attacking-barron-labeled-domestic-terrorist/.

The brother of Jane Fonda also called for violence against Secretary of Homeland Security Kirstjen Nielsen and called White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders a “c**t.”

*It should be noted that Mr. Fonda did issue an apology (probably after the Secret Service paid a visit.)

MrGrimm888's avatar

@KNOWITALL . IMO. There is a big difference in reacting to malice with disdain, or even violence. People from the restaurant owner, to ANTIFA are a reactionary movement. Not proactive. They are ramifications, and responses. They would not exist without the actions of the government. It’s not a chicken or the egg situation, like yall are making it out to be.

The administration is attacking parts of our population. Parts of the population are simply fighting back.

Dutchess_III's avatar

A Hollywood actor proposed kidnapping her children? I assume that was Peter Fonda. I thought he was dead. Of course I disagree with that. That’s terrorism. Only Trump is allowed to practice that type of cold, heartless terrorism, and Sanders backs him up.

And I’ve looked up Maxine Waters. I agree with the overall battle, but I disagree with her aggressive strategy. It’s like the difference between the followers of Martin Luther King, and the Black Panther party.

My strategy would be to walk myself on out of a restaurant if one of Trump’s minions walked in, NOT to aggressively confront them.

seawulf575's avatar

So what if we have a situation like this: a 4 or 5 year old child that is being “raised” by a woman that is strung out on heroin all the time, that has a different guy staying over every other night, that leaves her needles and stash out, then loads her child into a car without a car seat and drives her to get more heroin causing an accident in the process injuring someone and getting arrested in the process. Should we not arrest the mother because we don’t want to separate the child from the parents? Should we take the child and put it in jail with the mother just to keep them together?
How about a situation like this: A single dad decides to rob the local convenient store and takes his 4 year old with him. He gets arrested for armed robbery. Should we put the child in jail with the dad so that we don’t separate them? Should we not arrest the dad to keep the child with the parent even though the odds are good that he will do it again?
Now, what if we have a situation like this: We have a child, 4 or 5 years old, being loaded into the back of a van with their parents or maybe with a stranger and taken across international borders. The van is being driven by shady characters that prey on poor people wanting to get to America. They are taking a travel path that is known for human trafficking and having women and children sexually molested; that has ended up with many people dying along the way. They are coming to knowingly violate the immigration laws to come into another country with the foreknowledge that if they are caught they will be arrested. Should we not arrest these parents who have knowingly put their children into harms way just so that we don’t separate them from their children? Should we arrest the children as well and put them into jail with many of the same people that have shown similar disregard for the safety of themselves or their children?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I think it’s sad, but I understand. Honestly I don’t think it’ll be good for anyone or the country. And I think it’s a shame that the party of peaceful activism that I grew up knowing, the Democrats, will allow Trump or anyone to derail them, but it is what it is.

@Dutchess_III Yes, exactly so.

I suppose my strategy would be to counter all his policies in DC legally and continue to put pressure on my representatives to vote any bad policies down.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Yes @KNOWITALL. Peaceful protests, but firm protest. This administration is just so over the top, so beyond belief, I still can’t believe it happened.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@KNOWITALL . ANTIFA has it’s roots in pushing back against the Nazis before WW2. They were peaceful, at first. Then they eventually had to start using the same strategies as the Nazis. That meant violence, unfortunately.
I hadn’t even heard of ANTIFA, until it’s ranks have swelled, as a result of the Trump administration, and their agendas.

The alt-right shows up at demonstrations, with assault rifles. To balance, a small portion of the left developed a more aggressive reaction.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@seawulf575 . Predictably, you use anomalous occurrences to represent the majority of immigrants.

Dutchess_III's avatar

So, what do we do about those 2000+ kids who have no idea where their mother is? Are they up for being fostered? I’d step up.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess_III It happened because he said the right things at the right time to the right people. He literally plays to almost every point of the Right except the religious, and he submits to that even if not applying it personally.

@MrGrimm888 I get meeting aggression with aggression, it makes perfect sense. I’m just not sure I’d be on the side going against the ‘gun nuts’ who have been prepping for this kind of thing for decades but I guess we’ll see.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I’m not using anomalous occurrences. I’m pointing out that when a parent does something against the law that also threatens the safety of their child, we don’t think twice about taking the child away from the parent. Every city in this country as a department of children’s services that does that every day. But suddenly when we put the term “immigrant” to the scenario we suddenly want to act differently. Especially if we ignore the adjective “illegal” when it is applicable.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Well. I’m a “gun nut.” I’m not on their side. I doubt there would be a time when I would ever even think about bringing one to a protest.

@seawulf575 . You’re looking at it wrong. Many of these parents are doing what they think is best for their children. They’re taking them out of violent, or lawless places, where the children are in immediate danger. By your logic, the parents who live in such places who aren’t trying to seek a safe home with a future for their kids are the bad people.

Dutchess_III's avatar

No, it happened because of the Electoral College. I just can’t believe the EC let us down like that.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Yes but for every (insert political party here) gun nut like you, there’s a liberal who thinks they’re evil and won’t touch the things, and 20 fringe Republicans with a stockpile. That’s what worries me.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Well. I agree that there is likely a massive difference in firearms ownership between the left, and right. That shouldn’t be relevant though, right?

“Fringe republicans?” I doubt that many wouldn’t proudly refer to themselves as republican. I got to know lots of those types of people when I was selling guns. That gun counter was like a guilt free zone for conservatives. When they all felt they were around like minded people, they really let their true colors show. I heard things that I thought were dying out in America. I feel I have an excellent grip on the mindset of those guys, whether I wanted to or not. I don’t get my opinions about conservatives from liberal media. I get it from experience. A lot of those guys are absolutely bigots, and many support simply shooting immigrants at the border.
They take guns to protests, because they want to use them. If they aren’t careful, they will be the biggest contributors to making guns illegal…

gorillapaws's avatar

@MrGrimm888 “They’re taking them out of violent, or lawless places, where the children are in immediate danger.”

Also, let’s not forget America’s role in turning those countries into total hellholes with foreign policy, corporate exploitation, and manipulating their political leadership. The most effective anti-immigration policy is to help our neighbors repair the damage we’ve done.

It’s not illegal to seek asylum in the USA. That’s a perfectly legal means of immigration in the US.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Yeah. I thought I already mentioned that. Apparently it was in another thread. I was talking to @kritiper I think…

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm It’s relevant in war, who is best equipped, better trained and especially who’s side tge govt and military are on. Ya, it’s relevant if it escalates to inciting violence.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^You might should look up some stats, on what ethnicities mainly comprise the US military, before assuming that they would be on the side of the president. And guess what? Nobody, and I mean… Nobody is better equipped, than the US military.

I think if it came to some major civil war, Putin would smell blood, and hit us hard. Probably having ultimately achieved whatever goal he had. If he wanted to take the land, and cities, it would be like Syria times a million. So. It wouldn’t matter anyway.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm I did. Majority are Reps. Can’t post a link on my phone right now. Of course that was pre Trump when I looked.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I meant they’re majority brown. Orders still need to be carried out. And thank you for conceding that it was pre-Trump.

My point is that I have little faith in our nation’s military harming it’s own families. Not in a long, coordinated way. Maybe an incident, but no war. Not on their own people. Minorities, and the anti-Trumpers, and the US military would forge a bloody, and horrific campaign against the Trumpers. Who, despite better weapons from the anti-Trumpers, will not need them, as heads of the military take control and after years of conflict, the civil war will have been won. Taken again, from tyranny. Hopefully, not repeating the mistakes of the past.
The remaining Trumpers, will probably be like ISIS. With their lower numbers, they will commit terrorist attacks, possibly forever.
Glad America eventually becomes great again…

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 It really does puzzle me how you think. And your examples of unfit parents above illustrates my point. It reminds me of your argument some months back that since black folks know the cops are out to victimize them, they should behave better. That one really took me aback and made me realize that the 2 of us are never seeing the same thing. You’ve given some analogies above on the criminality and irresponsibility as parents of people storming the border with their kids in tow. I’d like you to consider this one. Suppose you lived in a house that happened to be burning down around you but it is illegal to go outside. What do you do? Should you leave your child in the building to spare it the taint of criminality? Or do you grab the kid and head away from the flames? OK, let’s suppose you selfishly decide that being labeled a criminal is preferable to roasting alive, and you risk the treacherous trip to possible safety through an entire neighborhood up in flames? Is it worth the risk? I’m just saying put yourself in these peoples’ shoes.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^He’s also suggested that black people home school their kids, if public schools are not up to par. While in the same thread saying they should take multiple jobs, and hold their communities together more.
Basically, if the government isn’t treating you equally, you shouldn’t complain. You should just work harder for things that the government is supposed to provide i.e. public schooling, and public safety, that it does provide to other communities…

I like @seawulf575 . But he’s a jagged pill. He has passion, intelligence, knowledge, and if I’m not mistaken more experience in life than me. But he stubbornly stands with Trump.
My only hypothesis is that he (as with other Trumpers I like,) is either ignoring some pretty obvious red flags, somehow incapable of comprehending the things Trump does or says, or actually being a bigot. Otherwise, I cannot fathom such an otherwise good person supporting Trump…

notnotnotnot's avatar

A bit of good news: Ocasio-Cortez won tonight!

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I fully understand wanting to move to some place that is safer. But you don’t try finding safer places by going along a known challenging path to purposely break the law. Maybe this answer below will help even further:
@stanleybmanly Let’s look at your analogy and then try applying it to the illegal immigration issue. So you are in your house and it catches fire. First off, it is not illegal to go outside…that is a real stretch to try making a point. But let’s say that you need to find a place to live now that your house is burning down. And you can’t afford a hotel. So you go to another home that is not on fire and not in danger of catching fire from yours. Do you break a window and climb through the broken glass with your child so that you can move into that home without the permission of the owners? Or do you knock on the front door to ask for help? And if you break in, what gives you the right to stay there? And if they call the police, aren’t you guilty of breaking and entering? So now let’s apply that to the immigration situation we are looking at. Fire…danger. Living conditions in home country…danger (possibly, but for reasons of argument we will say it is). Leave fire…escape danger. Leave country…leave danger. Travel to neighbor’s house…safety. Travel to US…expected safety. Now it skews excessively. Break glass and crawl illegally through the broken glass with child to enter neighbors house or knock on the door. Which is safer and more legal? Sneaking across US border illegally after traveling through a dangerous path with your child or walking up to the border station and asking for asylum? Which is safer and more legal?
I’m a firm believer that there may be extenuating circumstances where a law will be broken. Example: you drive 30 mph over the speed limit in a mad rush to get to a hospital to save someone’s life. I view that as I still broke the law, but am willing to deal with that later in favor of saving the life. I may get ticketed, I may lose my license, I may be arrested…but those are not as important to me as saving a life. But that’s the point…I recognize I am breaking the law and am willing to face the consequences of my actions.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Ideally that is the way it should work, and that is the way it is professed to to work, but the reality at the authorized door to the safehouse is radically out of step with the advertised methodology. The safe house is chartered under rules that once you are inside you are entitled to due process and must be checked out. The problem is the pileup at the door of those fleeing the conflagration. The staff at the entryway is severely undermanned, and the building’s manager is not particularly inclined to assist those seeking safety. In fact he has declared that the principle function of the door should be to round up the applicants before they can enter the building and thus deny them the rights they accrue automatically once they are inside. The reception at the door, deliberate or not, is hostile and gruff, and refugees are made to understand that they are unwanted and can be expected to be regarded as criminals before their acceptance or refusal for admission, a process that can require years. The reality is (and word goes around) that the actual function of the authorized door is to round up victims, separate parents and children, and in most cases send them back into the flames. In fact the new manager with the big mouth makes a show of doing exactly this as loudly as can be managed. So it turns out that there is a HUGE incentive to avoid the door and “breaking a window” translates to actually risking horrible death in deserts or drowning in rivers rather than submit to the alternative ordeal at the door.

chyna's avatar

@seawulf575 There ya go! You said you are willing to break the law in order to save a life. That is what these immigrants are doing. They may be facing danger getting here, but the known horrors and danger they are leaving is worth it. I won’t use fake scenarios to prove my point. The reality is horrible enough.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^He also claimed that he would be willing to face the consequences. That was his point, I would think…

MrGrimm888's avatar

@seawulf575 . I think you would feel differently, if you were in their shoes. You really think that someone uproots their families if it isn’t a last resort? Indeed, a couple decades ago, we had people coming here to work, and make more money. That’s not the case anymore. The majority of these immigrants are refugees.

seawulf575's avatar

I think that the question that everyone is forgetting to ask or don’t want to try answering is very simple. If you are as desperate as you claim these illegal immigrants are, and which I don’t doubt, why would you go the extra mile to enter this country illegally? Why not either apply for immigration before you leave or go to the border entry and ask for asylum? If they went and asked for asylum, they would not be treated as the criminals they are when they enter illegally. They would enter the country in the process of gaining asylum, entering with a whole different set of rules that would help protect them instead of being all against them.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@seawulf575 you are utterly clueless, you know that? Do you think they’re sitting in well lit, plugged in homes like we have in America, or are they scrambling in bombed out buildings, desperately trying to find some place safe at least for the night! It’s something you just can’t fathom. Jesus said you should try, but you don’t wanna.

seawulf575's avatar

@chyna I have been in the situation I described. A girl I was dating started having a bad asthma attack and her inhaler wasn’t working. She asked me to take her to the hospital that was about 10 miles away. About 3 miles into the trip, she stopped breathing. At that point I chose to get her there as quickly as possible, regardless of the consequences. I made the last 7 miles in about 4 minutes….well in excess of the 40 mph speed limit. But I was willing to take the consequences since her life meant more than my driver’s license. But the difference between my decision and what the illegal aliens are doing is that when I got to the hospital, I didn’t sneak in…I entered the way I was supposed to.

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_III You are hopelessly obtuse, you know that? Why come all the way here to become criminals when you could come all the way here and enter legally? Jesus you should try applying some common sense instead of clinging mindlessly to the liberal talking points.

Dutchess_III's avatar

They. Don’t. Have. The. Options. A. First. World. Country. Has.

seawulf575's avatar

They. Can. Come. To. The. Entry. Point. Easier. Than. Sneaking. Across. The. Border. And. With. More. Rights.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess_III @seawulf575 You two are so funny. We all want them to come in safe and sound and let the govt vet them, and all live together peacefully and as a valued citizen. All this fighting is nonsense, when our goal is basically the same, it’s just the process of getting to that goal we can’t seem to find common ground on.

chyna's avatar

@seawulf575 Aren’t you just the epitome of honor and lawfulness?
Because your lawlessness ended the minute you drove in to the hospital, because you were no longer responsible for a human beings life and your own life was in no danger.
No comparison what so ever.

seawulf575's avatar

Okay @chyna then please answer the simple question: How would these folks be safer…entering our country legally or illegally? It’s a simple question. Please, enlighten us all. Tell us all how entering our country as criminals is better for them than as legal immigrants. OR just STFU.

chyna's avatar

Wow, you are so dense. They are running for their lives. You can only see what you want to see, so I will not engage with you ever again here and I’m done following this question.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 Unfortunately coming here legally is not easy as you seem to believe. It falls on those who survive the trip to prove they are fleeing for their lives. In the past, our government would make a genuine effort to investigate claims of applicants supposedly fearing for their lives. The process can take months and applicants were released to await the verdict. But the pressing numbers are now beyond the capacity of understaffed agencies to cope, and Trump has announced that applicants are no longer going to be released to await the vetting process. What all of this amounts to is the depressing fact that the great bulk of the people attempting to come in legally will be rejected and flown home. Word gets around, and soon everyone realizes that without legal assistance, walking into a legal port of entry is equivalent to rounding yourself up for deportation.

KNOWITALL's avatar

Border chief Padilla says numbers have decreased, so right or wrong, it worked.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Of course it worked. They come in illegally instead. The odds are better!

MrGrimm888's avatar

Correct. The zero tolerance gives little reason to even try the legal route. If anything, it is increasing illegal immigration…

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