General Question

tinyfaery's avatar

What is white American culture?

Asked by tinyfaery (42584points) June 27th, 2018

Not German-American, or Italian-American, or any other specified country/ethnicity.

What is general white American culture?

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

114 Answers

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

And before anyone leaps in to cry, “there is no single white culture!!!!’, note that there is also no single Arab culture or Japanese culture, but asking about them wouldn’t get people freaked out.

Part of white American culture is assuming that white is normal, and everything else is an aberration.

News stories will specifically mention something like the black president, or a black mayor, or a black Navy officer. If the subject is white, no mention need be made. If not, their race is spelled out.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Lawrence Welk “turn off the bubble machinah”

ragingloli's avatar

Monster trucks, deep fried butter, longing for slavery reinstation, oppressing minorities.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@tinyfaery Now do you see why some of us choose not to participate in witch hunts like this question? There can be no ‘right’ answer for this crowd who is predisposed to screaming ‘racist’ at every turn, true or usually not.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

The leave it to beaver,type time.

ragingloli's avatar

Just admit already what you know to be the self-evident truth:
“White Male Culture” is chiefly defined by how it views and treats other cultures, ethnicities and genders.
It does not see them as equals, or itself as just one among many. It views itself as superior, baselessly demanding for itself the right to rule over all other, and historically, it has employed merciless violence to assert and maintain its dominance, culminating in the industrialised mass murder of 11 million Jews, mentally and physically disabled people, gays, gypsies, communists, and others not fortunate enough to live up to the white aryan ideal.

White culture is a tiny mustache.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@ragingloli And that is the problem. Do you believe all white men think this way? Even all white men who are jellies? Come on, it’s simply not true.

stanleybmanly's avatar

It’s a question searching for stereotypes, most of them perforce negative or presumed derogatory. Think the viewing stands at any Nascar race or the assembly at NRA conventions.

ragingloli's avatar

It is no accident that so-called “white culture” is exclusively advocated by white supremacists.

janbb's avatar


Response moderated
Tropical_Willie's avatar

Where’s my box of popcorn? ?

JLeslie's avatar

I’m calling @janbb the winner.

tinyfaery's avatar

So no answer? So when white people say “we are trying to preserve our culture” it has no meaning and is thus a ridiculous claim to assert? Got it.

@KNOWITALL I’m not trying to hunt witches. I saw a question that asked about someone wanting to save their culture and they had no definition of what that culture is, so I asked.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

“White culture” to the KKK is:

straight, white, landed gentry (read males only), Baptist Christian.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

No,no this video shows it best…....

MrGrimm888's avatar

When I hear the term, I think about American right wingers. Not saying that is correct. Just the first thing that pops into my brain. Like Tea Party people. Proud to be white, and hoping to be on top. Terrified of a level playing field. Scared of inevitable change…

Jeruba's avatar

I’m a born-in-the-U.S. white American, but I don’t feel that I have much in common at all with many or most of the people I know of who fit that description.

So does that mean that I don’t belong to the “white American culture,” or does it mean that whatever the “white American culture” is, it’s a lot broader and more elastic than the way it’s being described here?

(Actually, I never think of it as “white American culture,” but just as “American culture.” White is not assumed.)

Speaking for myself, I identify with some stereotypical American traits and not others, and I find some of them painfully embarrassing. I think many of us identify more with a geographic region and/or our ethnic or social origins than with the nation as a whole, which is so very diverse and ill defined. But if a number of us suddenly found ourselves transported into an altogether foreign environment, with no familiar elements and no English speakers, we’d discover commonalities that are hard to see here and now.

Kardamom's avatar

I am a white American female, but I don’t align with many of the stereotypes.

I am a liberal, vegetarian, animal loving, sports disliking (except for figure skating and gymnastics) person who enjoys the wide array of wonderful things that other countries offer to us by way of art, and music, and literature, and food.

Although I am American, with French ancestry, I am a huge Anglophile, and love everything British, although I am very happy to be an American, while at the same time I am disgusted with our current President and most of his policies, and most of his followers.

I think I can honestly say that being a Californian is just as important to me as being an American. I love our allies and hope that they will remain our friends, despite the ill treatment at the hands of Donald Trump and his followers.

Am I proud to be white? No, pride isn’t something that is even a part of the equation. I am white, but that is something that just is, in the same way that I am a female, and that I was born in the US, and in CA. Those are just the facts of my situation.

Response moderated
LuckyGuy's avatar

White American here…. Here’s my take on WAC .
Living in the burbs – house, 2 cars in the driveway and kids’ bicycles in the garage,
Working on the lawn pulling dandelions and other weeds,
Spraying for mosquitoes,
Cookouts involving meat patties and/or cylinders,
Inviting friends over to help with a projects or two.
Coffee in the morning with any kind of food in the fridge or left over on the counter.
Saturday night pizza and wings while watching Netflix.
Going into Goodwill to donate unneeded goods and ending up with more than you dropped off.
Waving to every person who drives down the road.
Weekly trash collection from a truck the size of a house.
And more. So much more…

gondwanalon's avatar

A huge complex of manifestations of behaviors and arts selected from many counties from around the Earth.

White color is a mixture of all colors.

White culture is a mixture of all cultures.

ragingloli's avatar

By that logic, black culture is the absence of all culture.

janbb's avatar

In all seriousness, I would never use the term “white culture.” I think it’s bullshit.

gondwanalon's avatar

Black culture is deep, rich and beautiful.

Demosthenes's avatar

Well, “Stuff White People Like” may help define it a bit:

-farmer’s markets
-gifted children
-David Sedaris


Nah, I’m still confused. I remember Anthony Bourdain once using the phrase “kiss-your-dog-on-the-mouth white” to describe a certain neighborhood. That’s way too white for me.

Serious time now: As I said in the other thread, there’s no one “white culture”. I think rural white Americans from Mississippi probably have more in common with rural black Americans from Mississippi than they do with white Americans from Berkeley, California. The similarities often have more to do with geographical region and economic status than they do with skin color.

janbb's avatar

@Demosthenes I agree. Class, geographic location, ethnic background (even white people have ethnic backgrounds), experience have more to do with culture than skin color.

tinyfaery's avatar

@janbb As far as I can see, mayonnaise is the one and only certain answer.

janbb's avatar

I was pretty chuffed with it, I have to say.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Is it really true, that mayonnaise is the glue that binds us?

stanleybmanly's avatar

that’s the theory. Proof will get you the Nobel Prize.

JLeslie's avatar

I’m thinking you don’t have to be white to be part of the “white culture.”

I said on another Q that I would never use the term white culture, but I do use “American culture.” American culture only kinda sorta works since we have so many cultures as part of the fabric of America.

I’ve said in the past we want some conformity and assimilation. That is sometimes criticized as being xenophobic, or ethnocentric.

I think @LuckyGuy had a good explanation.

@janbb’s mayo hit me as a classic Jewish answer to describe the not Jewish middle America people.

I also think white culture maybe is “not” black culture or “not” Asian culture. Kind of a comparison. I know black people who use the term “black culture” but I know black people who reject it also. I wonder if my MIL means white gringos when she stereotypes gringos, or she includes all Americans.

I don’t like the term white culture. I think it’s offensive to a lot of people, and I as a white person (I guess I’m white??) find it very odd. I never heard the term until recently. Is it the same as using WASP back in the day? I don’t hear that anymore.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

I also think white culture maybe is “not” black culture or “not” Asian culture

It does not work that way. That’s like believing other regions have an accent and yours does not.

JLeslie's avatar

@Call_Me_Jay Lol. I’m always dumbfounded when people think they don’t have an accent. I went to school in Michigan, and it was the first time I met people who thought that, and it was almost everyone I came across. To this day when I meet someone and guess they are from MI within a short time of talking to them they ask, “how did you know?” I reply, “your accent.” And, about half of the people say they don’t have an accent, or don’t understand what gave them away.

Note: I said, I don’t think you need to be white to be part of white culture, if there is such a thing. But, that’s because I’m going with @LuckyGuy’s definition, which actually has all sorts of problems with it in a technical sense.

I grew up in an extremely diverse part of the country, and there would be no way to say white culture and have it mean much of anything.

One jelly wrote on another Q that being proud of her people who founded America, white people, should be ok. Honestly, I’ve never thought in terms of white people being the founders. I think there is some brilliance in the founding of our country, and that has given me some pride as an American, and gratitude bring born here, but I don’t associate it with being white.

When I say not black or not Asian, I mean those groups might group white people together, not that I am. Living in the south I definitely felt grouped together as a white middle class person by plenty of black people. They assumed I was Republican, assumed I was Christian, assumed I had no understanding of being a minority, assumed I didn’t want to pay taxes for schools, assumed all sorts of things that were wrong. They put me in their white box. Living in the South there was more separation of white people and black people, and it was much less diverse, than where I grew up. Most of us out-of-staters were bothered by it.

There are subcultures within the country. That’s all that demographic and psychographic work that is done by marketing professionals and sociologists. It’s mostly a socio-economic evaluation in my opinion in the end, not anything to do with race, religion or ethnicity. It’s not like your born white or black or Hispanic and that predetermines what you will be like culturally. That’s pretty much the very definition of racism in my mind.

How we think, act, and our mores and norms are influenced by our environment and information we process. It has nothing to do with race. That’s why I don’t like the term white culture or black culture for that matter. My closest friends who are black I don’t perceive as culturally different. I don’t perceive my husband as culturally different and he was born and raised in Mexico as a Catholic, and I’m a Jew from the northeast. He has a few things where we are different in how we deal with things, but that’s just small personality differences and men are from mars things. We do deal with some “cultural” differences with his family. My own family has some very stereotypical things about it that could be characterized as cultural. I just don’t relate any of that to race though, it’s more generational and ethnicity stuff.

I said on that other Q the term “white culture” comes across much like the confederate flag. Some of the people identifying with it and saying might not be racist and might not mean any harm, but it comes across as racist and offensive. Then there are the people who use the term and fly the flag who actually are racist.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie I find these threads sad, when you are proud of your Jewish heritage, yet can’t recognize anyone may have a culture or identity YOU may not understand. I’m not Jewish and may not understand all of yours, but I respect it and don’t demean it or assign it a negative connotation or value. I think you’re being prejudicial and unfair, which I expect from fluther, but not from you. Same with my Japanese aunt and my Vietnamese friends.

You know me better than that after many years on this site, than to believe it has anything to do with people’s skin color or tones. I’m highly offended tbh.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I just mean I don’t think of myself in terms of white, but I understand why people have a problem with it. I am white, except to those who don’t acknowledge Jewish people as white. It’s easy for white people to not think about being white, we aren’t really reminded of it like other groups.

The confederate flag I understand some people just see it as a Southern symbol and their proud to be Southerners, but that flag makes me nervous people might want to kill me. If I were black I’m sure it would be even more nerve racking. I don’t know the intention of the person flying that flag, what truly in their hearts, of their strangers.

Would you agree any race can be part of “white culture.” Or, am I wrong about that?

Race is an accident of birth. It’s the culture of the people that I think most people find pride in.

Minorities in America try to hold onto things that they can be proud of, because they are not acknowledged with the majority that has power equally. White people already give themselves credit all the time. Scientific discoveries, inventions, Presidents, explorers, you name it. Only recently are black people and women getting more acknowledgement in a large sense regarding these things, and I’m talking about innovation from many many years ago.

I’m definitely not as offended as some here. You see they jump on me too, because I acknowledge there are cultural differences—even by race. I just think it’s really dependent on outside influences in the end, not skin color, and it’s just generalizations, you can’t pin anyone into a cultural group just based on outward appearance.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie Yes, I agree any race can be part of ‘white culture’. I’ve met people who are different races that are more like me or think more like me than many liberals or republicans, of any race. I’ve felt safer being the only white girl in a house where white is the minority, than I felt safe around sketchy white folks, too.

And yes, I see you do get some blowback for being more reasonable than most, and I appreciate that you stand up for what you believe.

The point I’m making is there is an odd resistance to white people being proud now, and it always leads back to racism, which I assure you, is two VERY different things. One I support wholeheartedly, like I would for any other race or culture, one I would never support and know a lot about, and have shared stories about here. I don’t appreciate the two being made to seem in any way similar.

Put it this way, normal white folks don’t have any problems with the Jewish folks, like me.
The other group has a major problem with Jewish people. You can see by some of Trumps moves and his supporters via Isreal, that that is not the case, that he is not actually fomenting racism. At least regarding this subject. It’s a pretty major distinction, which is why it’s disappointing no one here gets it.

stanleybmanly's avatar

It is understandable why white people, and particularly white people from the lower economic and educational strata feel under siege. Their reaction is defensive as the world with which they are familiar disintegrates around them. You can’t blame them. But there are votes to be realized from these fears, and we see the results in the current White House. I would like nothing better than with a clear conscience decry the overt racism of ignorant crackers, but I believe that at heart all people are basically decent. When you put yourself in the shoes of someone under the gun economically it’s simple to understand why the wing nut explanation as to why where you live it’s the doctor from Bangladesh examining your kid, because no white doctor would be caught in your failing little town.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@stanleybmanly Do you believe all Trump supporters are poor and uneducated, kinda like the thread here about all the military folks being poor and wanting a free education so they joined the service? Wow.

So in our town of 3000 in rural Missouri, we have an Indian with a restaurant, a Vietnamese with a restaurant, prayer rugs out regularly at the truck stops and many LGBTQ families, yes FAMILIES. Keep believing your negative stereotypes, but actually many people are actually good accepting, loving people, even ‘crackers’. Even Christians. Even rednecks. You really don’t get it and I feel sorry for you, no wonder you’re so angry all the time.

stanleybmanly's avatar

I don’t believe ALL Trump supporters are poor or illiterate, and a defense of your virtuous little town isn’t necessary. As for the military relying inordinately on those suffering the consequences of declining opportunities, there is absolutely no debate. Military enlistments are about the best indicator you can find on the actual health of the economy. And contrary to anything you might perceive, I’ve probably lived through more of my negative stereotypes than you are old enough to appreciate. I am angry, but I’m angry for you.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@stanleybmanly I’m not sure why you’d be angry FOR me, I’m 45 years old with no kids, I can just sit back and watch you people let the world burn.

I wasn’t defending my town, I was showing you you have no idea what rural America is like, at least not in my area in a Red state. Ya’ll talk much more about racism and hate here than anyone I know.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL For sure people have a misconception of rural Bible Belt areas, and lots of people in those rural areas have a misconception about people who live in the big cities.

I absolutely know that many Trump supporters are not racist, I’ve said it a hundred times here and I get blasted! Unfortunately, in the Trump camp are quite a few racist people, some of whom are very scary. Not that there aren’t some scary people voting for any president you could name.

I think it’s just everything altogether you know? The last 15 years or so I think it’s been building like a perfect storm. 9/11 happened and suddenly the average white guy felt like he could be harmed. Economy takes a bad turn a few years later. Conservatives worried Obama was a socialist. Gay marriage gets passed. Trump says things that get his supporters chanting horrible things (mob mentality). The country is now quite saturated with Spanish speaking people, so it’s at the point where some people feel like things are really changing. That America as they know it is in jeopardy. It’s like a tipping point I think. Part of it has to do with (IMO) how prolonged the migration from Latin America has been. We always have a significant number of new immigrants from Latin America for many many years now. Other groups the immigration was more finite, and then they had babies, and the new generation were more assimilated and their English was their native language, etc. the same is true for Hispanics, the generation born here speaks English and assimilates, the thing is there are ongoing waves of new immigrants still coming so it feels to some people that that’s not actually happening. They don’t see the assimilation even though it is there.

To people who live in big cities, especially on the coasts, diversity has been the norm for a really really long time. Ports of entry. Our America is a very diverse America, so we don’t feel a change in the same way parts of the middle of the country feel it.

Yellowdog's avatar

When people say they wish to preserve their culture—well, let me give a few examples.

Bellevue Baptist Church, one of the largest churches in the country, for years did one of the best Fireworks displays on or around July 4th. It was free to everyone and a major city event in Memphis and its suburbs.

I learned they weren’t doing one this year. I heard rumors that there were gangs that started trouble last year, but was not aware that for two years, several gangs had been robbing people at gunpoint and robbing or desecrating the campus.

For public safety, they had to cancel all Fourth of July events (which had been wholesome family events) because of the problem with inner-city gangs.

Another example: after a hostile takeover of the Shelby County Schools, several suburbs and small towns incorporated their own school systems/ But people who don’t live within the municipalities that were able to incorporate had to send their kids to gang-infested inner city schools, since no schools are in their areas. The White culture was school dances and proms and homecoming games and band trips. The Inner City culture was gangs and weapons and belonging to a gang and being forced into selling drugs and doing the dirty work of the gangs, and being beaten almost dead to prove one’s self.

Then there is retail. Shopping malls once were a place of first dates, before young couples could drive—and even preteens could go to movies and entertainment. Now, they are regular battlegrounds for gangs, and gang recruitment targeting kids who once could hang out there safely. We built these havens for different purposes. We want our culture back.

For you liberal elitists, there once were parts of the cities that were enjoyed by the arts crowd and arts bringing people together. There were specialty shops and LGBTQ havens. But acceptance of certain elements of society has led to these areas being full of crackhouses, carjackings, armed robberies, and drug trafficking.

I imagine a lot of people feel the same way, who once lived in American small towns with friends and neighbors and elementary schools and libraries and small Southwest U.S. town restaurants and theatres—are now transitory places with Mexicans and Central Americans passing through in large numbers, along with gangs, drug cartels, child trafficking, sex trafficking, kidnappings, and guns.

No one minds the positive aspects of healthy multiculturalism or including diversity in the fabric of our society and culture. What we DO mind is being preyed upon and loosing our culture altogether.

I hope this helps

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Arm the tourists with 50 caliber machine guns, then the gangs (Mexicans and other unwanteds) won’t bother them; right @Yellowdog Or is the Neo-Nazi followers of the Orange haired one.

innuendoes noted

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

For you liberal elitists, there once were parts of the cities that were enjoyed by the arts crowd and arts bringing people together. There were specialty shops and LGBTQ havens. But acceptance of certain elements of society has led to these areas being full of crackhouses, carjackings, armed robberies, and drug trafficking.

Sad to see someone so uninformed as to believe that artists and gay people cause neighborhoods to decline.

Artists are typically the pioneers when a neighborhood gentrifies. Which leads to young professionals moving in which leads to young families walking the block with strollers.

For examples, see Brooklyn NY. And now Harlem. Here in Chicago my neighborhood is one. In the 1980s it was cheap real estate for photographers and painters and galleries. Now we have $2M homes and $500K condos and kids play in the street until it’s dark at 9PM in the summer.

Yellowdog's avatar

I didn’t say they cause neighborhoods to decline. They are usually the first to move back into a declining or blighted area, especially those with historic preservation interests. They seldom move into a 1960s or 1970s neighborhood.

They are also easy victims for gangs. The Cooper-Young area of Memphis is kind of like Atlanta’s Five Points, which might be better known. There have now (since 2012) been carjackings and armed robberies that have driven several businesses out of business, and forced several residents to move (fortunately there are other arts districts but they command higher prices, which many casual artist types cannot afford.

Some areas had high promise for arts districts but have become just another high crime ghetto. Those who can move to pricier areas

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

I didn’t say they cause neighborhoods to decline..

You did very plainly. Are you like this in person? Slippery denials would be a real turn-off. Do you notice people don’t take you seriously?

JLeslie's avatar

@Yellowdog I moved away a few years ago, but I don’t remember Latin Americans being the problem in Midtiwn, nor Latin Americans being the problem in Cordova/Wolfchase Mall, or other malls.

The guy who supervised my irrigation that I had put in on my property told me they were having trouble, because all the Latin American workers they had were going back home. This was back in 2008 I think. When the economy took a big dip.

It didn’t seem like there was a large Latin American population there, not compared to other places I have lived. Although there were a few very good Mexican restaurants. Lol. Chicken soup at Mezcal is the real deal! Although, a lot of the menu is Tex-Mex otherwise. And, tortugas, also known as Deli Mexicana, also is the real real deal. they have real Mexican food you don’t find other places. I’ll tell you what to order if you want to know.

Memphis has been famous for violent crime way before the Hispanics started coming in. The problem is just growing out to the burbs now I guess, but I think part of the problem is the violence breeds more violence.

As far as the schools, I voted against Lakeland becoming its own school district, that’s where I lived at the time all of the votes were done. I have wondered how that all is coming along now.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@Yellowdog . You are making the common mistake of blaming race, rather than poverty. Impoverished areas are historically full of crime. Do you think the black guys that shot you did so for fun, or were they desperate people? The poverty makes people desperate. It creates drug problems, and violence. When such areas are allowed to fester, a dangerous ghetto is the outcome.

Aethelwine's avatar

Madison, WI is full of liberal, LGBT artists and it’s one of the most desired places to raise children in the U.S.. It has lower average crime than other cities its size. New argument, please.

Yellowdog's avatar

Madison, Wis doesn’t have a gang problem, either. The LGBT community is the original culture there.

This is a discussion about another culture taking over yours.

But say, for instance, some group decided to bring in Somali Muslims because they thought they’d fit well into the tapestry of Madison, Wis.

Yellowdog's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Yes, they shot me for fun. I gave them everything I had, which amounted to about 20 cents, a bank card, an EBT card, some Missionary training materials, and a 1993 Toyota Corolla.

The shooter, Stephan Bobo, drove a BMW. He was 20 years old, had a criminal record, yet lived in a Section 8 Hud house. Yes, there will be a barrage of people who say you cannot get a HUD house if you are a felon on probation.

He drove a BMW and had a house. I was living with a friend and taking care of my parents,where I crashed between two and eight most mornings. I drove a 1993 Corolla.

BTW these weren’t Mexicans or Latinos. Few if many Drug Cartels from Latin America in Memphis. Memphis’ crime scene is mostly the Crips and the Bloods and the Vice Lords.

Aethelwine's avatar


The white, meth head, redneck Trump supporters commit more crimes in my neck of the woods in rural western IL than the Mexicans who work in restaurants and fields. The same goes for the Muslims who own all the gas stations in the area.

Yellowdog's avatar

@JLeslie Memphis still does not have a large Hispanic population. The Latinos aren’t violent here. Most of them live among what might be called the Summer Ave corridor, from Binghampton to Cordova.

This is a discussion about “white culture” and what people mean when they say they want to preserve their culture. In Memphis, gangs and crime have taken over many areas.

I have actually been quite close to the Latino culture here. First Evangelical Church, and Austen Wolf, have worked closely with Latinos and do much missionary work in Central America and Mexico.

But they ARE a tremendous drain on the resources in some cities, including our ERs

MrGrimm888's avatar

@Yellowdog . I will stick with my assertion that poverty created your shooter. It’s your right to disagree…

Yellowdog's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Maybe in his upbringing.

MrGrimm888's avatar

The man you described sounds like a description of thousands of Americans. All in impoverished areas…

I would be shocked that he came from a house where both his parents were educated well, or had time to raise him while working multiple jobs. I would be shocked if the public school he attended had proper funding, or decent national test results.

When people are born into poverty, there’s a very strong chance they will not escape it.

Yellowdog's avatar

Racism is a major factor, too. You can LIVE in poverty on the government as I have, But many Blacks in the poverty you describe think white people are made of money and an easy target.

Again, I gave them everything I had, and nothing about my car or my parents house suggest anything less than poverty. I was still shot and barely survived.

Now, before people cry racism here, let me say that the police, arresting officers, everyone assigned to the case, the judge, the medical help, the District Attorney, everyone who helped me, were African American. I suspect many of them grew up in poverty, except maybe the Judge

MrGrimm888's avatar

You were a target. That’s probably true. A target for bad people, who do bad things, because they grew up a bad person. Because they grew up in an impoverished area…

Not sure what you’re implying about those minorities involved legally. A jury, for example, is supposed to be comprised of your “peers.” If there are lots of black people in this area, sounds like the system works fine….

Yellowdog's avatar

Just want to affirm that not all African Americans are violent thugs, even if the gangs are almost exclusively African American. African Americans and Hispanics are usually the victims, or innocent bystanders, of the gang crime.

MrGrimm888's avatar

It varies depending on the region…

Demosthenes's avatar

@Yellowdog While I think you make some valid points, some of your gripes about “culture” are due to other factors. The decline of malls has more to do with the rise of online retail than it does with multiculturalism. And what of the opioid crisis? That’s a major drug problem contained almost entirely within the white, rural, small town subset of America. That can’t be blamed on “diverse gangs”.

janbb's avatar

And mass shootings are almost invariably done by disaffected white men.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I have to say, when I hear about a mass killing, I assume it’s a white guy…
Some even specifically target minority groups. I can’t really think of anything like that, except maybe back in the Black Panther days of the 60’s-70’s…

I’m saddened to know that some of my fellow Americans, can’t see the obvious reasons for the negative changes in society, and instead blame minorities. That’s the Trumper way. Also 1930’s Germany way…

JLeslie's avatar

In @Yellowdogs defense:

If you lived in Memphis you wouldn’t be surprised if most of the shootings are done by black people. I don’t know if they actually are, but it is the predominantly black zip codes that have the most shootings. Having said that, out where I lived in the burbs just outside the Memphis line there was definitely violent crime committed by white people.

In other cities I would never even try to guess race statistics for crime, I have no assumption in my head. Where I live now I would bet money most violent crime is committed by white oeople.

Stating a statistic is not racist in my opinion. Memphis shootings isn’t black people being pulled over more by cops or black people being arrested more than their white counterparts for drugs. We are talking shootings, and most majority black cities have more black on black crime than white on white or white in black. But, and this is a big but, the city is majority black, so statistically it just lines up as a percentage of the population most likely.

Memphis is FULL of guns.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^You need to be cross-referencing ,when looking at data about crime, with data about poverty. They are hand, in hand.

I live in Charleston, SC. Whites are the minorities. But the really bad areas have something in common, other than race. Poverty.
Any predominantly white areas, that have high crime, will also have high poverty rates.

See “Trailer Park Boys.”...

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrG bahaha! You’re not wrong though.

JLeslie's avatar

^^I agree that socio-economics is the real divide not race, but also middle class and wealthy people commit crimes too. I don’t like saying a certain race commits more crimes and I’m loathe to pin poor people as committing more crimes also.

My only point was that Memphis is not like NYC or where I live in Florida. Memphis has a horrible amount of violent crime per capital, it was in the top three for years, but I think now it has decreased, and it’s just a fact that the majority living in the city are black. However, it’s not like 90%, it’s probably 60 something percent.

I’m the first to also say that the history of the South has created many of the “race problems” they have today, including the economic divide. Memphians will quickly point to northern cities like Detroit as being just as bad, and Detroit is bad, and Baltimore, and DC, also, but the surrounding suburbs of those cities are very diverse, which makes it feel different.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Crack changed the game. When it came on, in the 80’s, it hit impoverished areas HARD. The drug combined with the poor neighborhood environments, were a perfect storm. Most historically poor areas, are still feeling the effects of the drug and subsequent drug war, on generations of people…

Interestingly enough, the government has taken very different approaches to dealing with the mostly white community problem, opiods.
I have not heard conservatives calling for these communities to “handle their own,” as so many do of communities of color. No. No drug war now. This is an “epidemic.” Otherwise, there might be generations of white people in prison, destroying their communities…

JLeslie's avatar

^^There is definitely some discrimination in how the US has handled drug problems.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Yah think?...~

tinyfaery's avatar

Oh, boo hoo, @Yellowdog.

I grew up with all that ghetto gang nonsense and we still had fireworks, and hung out at the mall, had school dances and all that supposed “white culture”. We never let the possibility of violence stop us and we didn’t become scared of brown/black people and start blaming them for all our problems, nor did we stop living. We rolled with the punches and lived our lives. Your gripe is about changing times. That’s going to happen no matter what.

Yellowdog's avatar

I answered a question (asked by YOU, ironically) about what someone meant by wanting to preserve white culture.

I can explain about agreements between the Choctaws and Cherokees, That doesn’t mean I’m boo hooing about it.

This is YOUR question I answered. Did you ask it just to attack someone?

Yellowdog's avatar

BTW—Ghetto trash shot up a Fourth of July celebration in Bartlett, TN last night—one of the few ‘white’ (30% black but of the same American culture) suburban towns that still does these things. It was gang related.

JLeslie's avatar

^^OMG. Where was it? I need to google the story. My friends in Bartlett don’t have young children, so I’m guessing no one I knew was there. Pied_Pfeffer is from Bartlett I think.

Edit: it says the police believe the two guys involved knew each other. The shooter and the victim. It was at a Taco Bell near the fireworks.

janbb's avatar

But the problem isn’t guns; it’s brown people. ~

Yellowdog's avatar

The Taco Bell at Summer Ave (Highway 79) and Appling.

Most of the Bartlett civic buildings, performing arts center, and a large lake, are in the area. The area was very densely populated, and how anyone drove through is beyond me. But after the fireworks, around 9:40, someone drove through the Taco Bell lot and fired 7 shots; there were three ambulances and untold police cars.

The perpetrators were reputed to be members of the Vice Lords, who seem to prey upon Bartlett but are mainly associated with the McLemore area South of downtown.

Apparently the Vice Lords and another gang have been targeting the Bartlett civic activities, and large gatherings at Bellevue Baptist Church also on Appling but in Memphis, for several years. Bellevue ended their outdoor community events and has greatly increased security for indoor ones.

I do not know how many were shot, but there were three ambulances on the scene.

JLeslie's avatar

@Yellowdog Why are those places their target?

stanleybmanly's avatar

come to think of it, mass shootings would certainly fit in the white American culture category.

Yellowdog's avatar

I Bartlett is adjacent to Raleigh and good interstate connections to downtown and the North end. Most of the Germantown and Collierville activity comes around from the south leg of 240.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@Yellowdog . You may find some of the “Gangland” episodes, involving the gangs you mentioned interesting. It provides a semi-accurate portrayal of the development of the gangs, and some other things that you probably never heard.

Crips, Bloods, ViceLords, MS-13 etc…

Response moderated (Spam)
mrainer's avatar

Perhaps this would add to the discussion:

Let us consider “white American culture” to mean “a culture dominated by white American men.” I say this because in most cultures and sociopolitical settings, it is better and advantageous to be a male than a female. Males are privileged, get higher pay, and have been largely responsible for shaping the world as we know it today. Women have resisted for so long, yet equality remains a distant dream. To be sure, it is better to be a white male than anything else. The question that follows is—is it better to be a white female than a black male, or a male from one of the stigmatized minorities? Indeed, let us also consider whether it is better to be a white female than a black female or a female from one of the stigmatized minorities. I think this consideration is important to probe what White, American culture means.

I hope I did not digress; I merely feel it is important to examine the gendered aspects of this question.

Yellowdog's avatar

I still don’t think people get it, Maybe I should come up with a list. But even that list wouldn’t make sense to people who are unfamiliar with anything on it.

In the first place, white American culture is not by itself anything that oppresses anyone else. With the exception of maybe Russia and parts of the old Soviet empire, white people have been very liberal on the world stage—think of Scandinavia and Canada and most of Europe. America itself is still a beacon of freedom from its inception. I do not deny atrocities done to the Native Americans and the rather self-contradictory fact that Americans, where all are created equal, actually had slaves. But for the most part, America was envisioned as a place of freedom from oppression and dictatorial rulers. No matter how bad you think Trump is (or any other president), look at regimes under the people you compare him to or call him as they really were, and you will quickly understand that America has been that beacon of hope.

‘White America’ is, ideally, an inclusive society, that was founded by New England Patriots and Patriots up and down the Atlantic coast, from Maine or even Canada, down to South Carolina. It is mostly English-American.

Country Music is another aspect—think of Olivia Newton John in the 1970s, Most of what people call ‘country’ and ‘family values’ stems from the Scots Irish, Ulster Scot, and similar-named groups—think Appalachia, Nashville, the Ozarks, Kentucky, cowboys and the settlement of the west—the poor whites who searched for and made a better life in their own country. Yes, they oppressed others along the way. But most of the Scots Irish or Ulster Scots fought on the side of the North during the civil war. Many had families divided.

White immigrants, such as Scandinavians and Germans—they too might be considered White Americans—though for about seventy years have been inclusive and liberal, especially in our current time.

The American Melting Pot—American culture as a whole, includes many non-white groups, including African Americans, Latinos, Asians, and people of every part of the world. But ideally they seek and live by the ideals of the original patriots, that all are created equal.

There probably has been more of a divide with Latino America—as much of our Southern borders and border states, including Florida and the Southwest, what has actually been English-American and Hispanic American has long been tenuous and disputed.

White America sounds racist, as they do not like foreign encroachments and the changes that come with time. I have become more aware of them this Fourth of July—I think it is still epitomized in a Fourth-of-July weekend in a small town, or in a mecca like Branson, Missouri / Silver Dollar City, or the various colonial days and traditional home arts and home crafts where they display things like lye soapmaking and folk music.

In order to not be confused with ethnocentric or racists, however, White American Culture, as American culture as a whole, should reach out to others through venues such as Folk Music inclusive of other cultures, new age and health food /counterculture venues, Rennaissance fairs, working with communities right outside their perimeters, working with other cultures among themselves (multiculturalism) and, perhaps most of all, aiding the world though organizations like the International Red Cross, The Peace Corps, and the multifarious Missionary groups that have brought aid and actually rebuilt countries and lives.

They really are at their best when we all pull together, calling for all races and ethnoi coming together and working for a better world.

JLeslie's avatar

@Yellowdog Why not just say American culture? I know you might even get blowback from that with how things are today, but I think it definitely sounds better, and might even be more accurate since you are including all the diversity in America as welcome to join in. You just have some cultural norms and mores that you believe are important.

I wrote recently, on another Q, that it was the English, and some Dutch, and others who mostly formed America. It’s why we speak English as a primary language, and it gave us the collaboration and inspiration to come up with separation of church and state, and our constitution. Of course we did have Spanish settlers already here, and French, in parts of the country, but the English Protestants dominated. It’s a big part of why we aren’t Spanish speaking, and why we didn’t have Catholicism ruling over us intwined with government like most of Latin America.

They are worthwhile historical facts, but let’s not lose site of the main intention of the founders, of those who organized our government. They words as written on paper were to be inclusive of new groups into America, and treating them fairly is why we have very good assimilation in our country. Saying things that will make new immigrants feel ostracized or condescended to will not be helpful, it will achieve the opposite of your goal I think, if your goal is to maintain a culture that is inclusive.

You have to lead with kindness and equality. People who are attracted to America see freedom and a fair shake at being prosperous. If they see how Americans achieve success, they will want to emulate that. You, we, just need to be a good example.

The first generation born here historically are very assimilated, by the third generation completely assimilated. People focus too much on the immigrant generation. They focus on things like their struggle with the language, some have minimal education, are poor, they might have some cultural differences, or religious difference, but most of that disappears within a generation or two, while still holding onto some small traditions, which all of us usually like and appreciate. Americans like celebrating St. Pat’s day and Cinco de Mayo, and Tartan Day and Oktoberfest (we even make up stuff that they didn’t do in the original countries) and various religious holidays with each other.

Would you say UK culture represents American culture at this point? Is it synonymous to you? You and I talked about the history, and dominating forces in shaping America, but my guess is you view American culture as being different than the Brits. The people who settled America were brave and daring and sought freedom and rejected some of their own culture to create their own.

Yellowdog's avatar

Why not just say American culture? Because the question is asking what is white American culture. And not all cultures that make up the tapestry of America are white Anglo-Dutch or Anglo-Friesian cultures.

The essence of “white” culture is that of Anglo Saxons (the 13 colonies) and Ulster Scot/Scots Irish (Appalachian, Ozark, and Country/Western U.S.) culture.

JLeslie's avatar

@Yellowdog I’m pretty sure the OP is asking about White Culture, because she finds it offensive and wants to know what white, right wing, republicans mean when they say it. I’m pretty sure she identifies as white when she fills out the census if she bothers to answer that question, but she knows republicans aren’t counting her as white when they say white culture. If people find it offensive, maybe it’s time to rethink the term and why it’s used, is what I think.

Maybe it’s better to ditch the term. If the WASP’s had a strong influence on the original American culture and how it has basically continued over the last few hundred years, then just substituting American Culture would be less offensive and practically synonymous. It’s not perfectly synonymous, I realize that. We have some variety, it’s not a country of robots (thank goodness) more variety, and you know, whole regions tend to not use mayo on a sandwich, it’s not just the Jews.

Funny, I never hear WASP anymore. In my world it was not quite derogatory, but it was used when you knew they were a little different than “us” on some points. WASP also implied some wealth. I picture their life as being women with bob-like haircuts (I pretty much have that hairstyle now) drinking at 11:00am on their boat/yacht with perfect noses, and pretty diamond jewelry, wearing subdued colors like beige and white, maybe some navy, unless they ventured into wearing Lily Pulitzer. The men tended to have fairer hair, tall, liked to play golf. I think Roseanne did a show on it back in the day. Now, maybe it’s used for all social class levels.

Terms like Apple pie America, white bread America. I use middle America usually I think.

I almost always use “Middle America” regarding food though. Lol. It usually goes like this: You drink milk with dinner? Were you raised in Middle America? Ketchup on your hotdog? Do you pronounce Mary, Merry, and Marry all the same? It’s not truly race related, but those things come from the original settlers in the area probably, who were likely white. Although, my ysband puts ketchup on his hotdog (ketchup and mustard) and he’s Mexican. Blech.

More and more, I see less and less reason to use any of the terms as time moves on, and people get more blended, and Americans move around the country, and regions get more diverse.

tinyfaery's avatar

The only reason I asked this question is because someone mentioned on another thread about preserving “their” culture and then I asked what they meant and I got no answer so I decided to ask. I still haven’t received an acceptable answer. So, when I hear people talk about preserving their culture all I can assume is that they are talking about bigotry and hate, and mayonnaise.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

@tinyfaery Agreed, I lift an eyebrow when I see things like, “there is an odd resistance to white people being proud now”.

Some people can’t grasp, “you should be aware of horrendous mistakes and crimes”, and they can’t grasp that as whites, they also benefited from slavery and genocide and institutional racism.

They leap to “well, I personally did not own slaves or lynch anybody! How dare you!!”

JLeslie's avatar

@Call_Me_Jay They also probably didn’t write the constitution that they take pride in. They might even be related at all to the original settlers in America. You can say that back when you get that answer. I haven’t heard anyone say things like they didn’t own slaves though. More often I know white people who seem to feel some guilt about slavery, or unequal treatment. I don’t understand that either, unless they were part of it. We obviously do have people still alive today who remember when things were “separate, but equal.” So, they might actually have some reason.

@tinyfaery I should have said I can’t speak for you. I hope that was implied.

Just to clarify about the mayo, that’s not really anything to be taken seriously. It’s like Americans eating hard taco shells or fajitas, Mexicans from Mexico didn’t grow up on that. It’s like a tell sort of. It’s insignificant.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

More often I know white people who seem to feel some guilt about slavery, or unequal treatment. I don’t understand that either

It’s not guilt over it. It’s recognizing and admitting it is your heritage.

You can’t honestly claim the “Founding Fathers” and Constitution and Declaration of Independence as your proud heritage while pretending that slavery and genocide are not your heritage.

This is not complicated. They are all your family history or none are.

JLeslie's avatar

^^Exactly. That was my point actually.

I feel grateful to be an American, but I share no pride with the creation of America like I had something to do with it.

Hell, the whole idea of America is to succeed or fail on your own merit. You don’t get condemned by your ancestry, nor the social class you are born into. You get judged on your own work. That’s the idea anyway.

My family had nothing to do with the founding this country nor owning slaves as far as I know, so it really has nothing to do with me anyway.

I guess I could relate to feeling some pride about Jews and everything they have overcome, but personally I had an average middle class American life. Plus, I like diversity, so I don’t get wanting to have everyone around me look like me, act like me, or think like me. How does one ever progress in that situation?

Yellowdog's avatar

@tinyfaery What is it, then, about ‘white culture’ that makes you presume bigotry and hate?

Just about all white people I know are either central right or central left, politically. I am about 54 years old and have never seen segregation or racial discrimination, though separation between blacks and whites was a way of life prior to the end of the civil rights movement.

You have to get into a pretty extreme fringe minority to find actual racism among white people. Whites have largely overlooked race and most people associate freely with people of other races without thinking it any more than maybe a physical description of someone.

Americans preserving ‘their’ culture means American culture, not, say Sharia law or other values foreign to America’s freedoms, values, and traditions.

JLeslie's avatar

I would say if you don’t want Sharia law, then don’t start legislating Christian law. Don’t set precedents for religion in politics and our legal system.

I never worry about Sharia law in America, because in my mind, we don’t tolerate religious extremism in our government, we have a secular government.

I also agree the majority of Americans are not racist. But, racism in the past has created long lasting effects that still divide people and leave some groups at a disadvantage.

MrGrimm888's avatar

GA. The conservatives wouldn’t like watching their daughter get stoned to death for being raped…

What’s interesting about this point, is that white Christians will inevitably be the minority, in the near future. So. All this is setting them up to have a future majority (which won’t be them) run over them politically, and instill some new religiously motivated crap.

If there are 6 Muslims in the SCOTUS, in 40 years, the Christians will pay mightily, for what they are currently trying to do… Or 8 “minorities.”... Conservatives should be preparing for assimilation into a new world. Not fighting it, and exposing their issues with race, and change… They cannot bend America, into some giant theocratic nonsense of a dictatorship/theocracy. The country will eventually pop. I don’t know how. Revolution, voting, massive civil unrest (constant rioting,) etc.

IMO. It’s on. The conservatives are acting like China, with the South China Sea. If they’re going to steal it, they need to do it now. They’ve positioned themselves to potentially change many things that make America what it was/should be. I don’t know what they think the population will do. That’s another reason why the conservatives want so many brown people deported as possible. Just in case America doesn’t bend over and take this, the conservatives want less brown people/potential adversaries in a revolution. And of course, to a conservative, less brown people is never bad…

JLeslie's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I actually have more faith (or maybe I’m just an idealist) that religious minorities will not try to inject their religion into our government, but certainly injecting religion at all runs some risk.

Religious minorities here usually flee their countries, because of what America stands for, religious freedom and opportunity. When Mitt Romney was running for office I knew some Christians who worried about him being Mormon (which I consider to be part of Christianity, but some of them don’t) anyway, I wasn’t worried at all about him being Mormon. He knows what it’s like to be a religious minority, and he had never shown any inking of wanting to inject Mormonism specifically into government. There were thing I didn’t agree with him on, but his religion never caused me worry.

It’s the same with Kennedy. Many Christians don’t like the Catholics, and don’t consider them to be Christians (I do) and there was a lot of talk of the US being under the spell of the Vatican if he won.

Christians (non Catholics) may become a minority, actually maybe they are already? I really doubt they comprise over 50% of the country, maybe it is very close to that, but Christians including Catholics will stay the majority for a while I think. Especially if they let the Latin Americans in. ~

There is growth in unaffiliated also, and my guess is they fit just fine into the “white culture” being talked about. They might be more progressive than the conservatives in general, but they probably culturally fit right in in every day life, and Christians have no clue that person isn’t a Christian. People assumed I was Christian all the time I think when I lived in the Bible Belt.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I think religious representation is way off. I remember when I used to get asked, I would say Baptist. But I just said the one I knew, but wasn’t baptist…

I think a lot of people just say they are a certain religion, but are agnostics, or atheists…

tinyfaery's avatar

@Yellowdog You are delusional. EVERYONE holds racist/prejudicial biases. Anyone who says they have none is either lacking in self-awareness or is a liar. But this is not about inherent racism this is about white Americans complaining about “their” culture being destroyed when the only uniqueness is the long history of prejudice, violence and hate.

Yellowdog's avatar

Don’t project your own delusions or prejudices on people you hate. Most of us live in reality, and interact with people of all races, and don’t hold the prejudices, assumptions, and hatred that your question implies

To assume such, without actual evidence in normal day-to-day society, might imply that you yourself hold such mental disease, and project that everyone is that way.

I don’t go around in public looking for people to hate. I interact with everyone I come in contact with, without hate or assuming they hate others for the reasons you espouse.

tinyfaery's avatar

OMG, read a book, man. Or just google inherent bias.Your ignorance (you are not learned on the subject) is not surprising, at all.

Here is a test


Scholarly articles

If you can’t bother to learn than I have no time for you.

Yellowdog's avatar

This isn’t about inherent bias, so hidden that a special test must be done to find it.

This is about YOUR assertion of “a long history of racial bias and hate” where all is being described is the existence of a distinct, definable ethnic group or culture—the one that is in fact the root of the founding of this country. It exists, and its existence is not an effigy of hatred and violence.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

More proof @Yellowdog. “This isn’t about inherent bias, so hidden that a special test must be done to find it”. LA-LA-LA-LA.


KNOWITALL's avatar

@Yellowdog Fact is, if you agree with those here, white folks have zero to be proud of, unlike every other group or race in the world. Bottom line and end of story.

So I guess the Dems won’t need my vote ever again in my lifetime, which is fine with me. I have finally been convinced which party I truly belong to here on fluther, who knew it was as simple as skin color. Not sure why they are upset at Trump when they use race as a weapon just as much as he has.

Yellowdog's avatar

Well, first, there was The Trail of Tears—the first stain on White American Culture

This is when the Democrat party was formed, separating from the Republicans—a series of forced relocations of Native American peoples from their ancestral homelands in the Southeastern United States, to areas to the west that had been designated as Indian Territory. Most Naive Americans died.

Then the issues of Slavery, Jim Crow, the Klan, and the wrong side of the Civil Rights movements—also Democrat.

Only when the Democrats needed votes did they change in Alabama. But the stain that is the long history of hate and violence was the separatist group known as the Democratic party. Look at the hate now,

Demosthenes's avatar

The Democrats used to be more conservative and the Republicans used to be more progressive, so what? You’re still saying that conservatives were on the wrong side of history. It doesn’t help your “side”.

The parties also used to be more mixed. In the 60s, there were socially conservative southern Democrats and more socially liberal Republicans. People like that would be considered “party traitors” nowadays.

MrGrimm888's avatar

He’s just saying that since the democratic party used to be racist, it’s OK that conservatives are now. The problem, as always, is nobody is sticking up for old racist Democrats. He has this argument, with himself frequently…

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

Fact is, if you agree with those here, white folks have zero to be proud of, unlike every other group or race in the world

What white accomplishments are you proud of that other races have not achieved?

Be specific.

Not a trick question.

Stache's avatar

@KNOWITALL So I guess the Dems won’t need my vote ever again in my lifetime, which is fine with me. I have finally been convinced which party I truly belong to here on fluther, who knew it was as simple as skin color.

Are you allowing a few people on the internet dictate how you feel what is best for this country or are you being facetious?

MrGrimm888's avatar

^It seems the former. Some would rather vote against those who called them out, than vote intelligently, or for the benefit of the nation/world…

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Stache I’m a moderate who has voted both parties, I’m being facetious because both parties are so screwed up and racist. I can’t fully support either side at this point BUT Dems have disappointed me more because I’ve always considered them to have higher standards of behavior and tolerance. Not anymore. When both parties come across as intolerant, we’ve reached a new low.
Careful @MrGrimm, at least I vote unlike you, so you don’t get the high ground.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Correct. I don’t vote. But that’s out of protest.

It’s not that black and white anyways. With voting, people act like you’re either fanning the flames, or putting out the fire. I disagree. Take @KNOWITALL . She has acknowledged that she isn’t happy with either party, and that she will essentially pick the lesser of two evils, but will pick. That’s just playing their game. The government comes up with two candidates, who sometimes aren’t even that different, and you are basically forced to legitimize one of them. Any votes for an independent, or third party, are essentially a wasted vote, or a vote against the candidate you would have supported second (see how votes for Bernie, were really votes against Hillary.) I don’t consider that a democracy. And it’s not a good selling point to any who don’t vote. Besides, Hillary won by over 3 million votes, but lost anyways. What a fucking joke…

You can pick your poison, and eat it. Washington has to force feed me my morning bullshit.

Ordinarily, I would agree that my non-voter status gives me no high ground. In these times, I disagree. Only the lowest of the low support this administration.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm888 IMO too many women fought for the right to vote, I’m not giving up on democracy just because both parties stink. I see your point, though, and a lot of people agree with you.

Thing is, if you’d have voted for Hillary, along with all those other people who didn’t vote, Trump probably wouldn’t be in office, so imo you all share the responsibility of his term. :)

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Deep sigh… Yes. I’ve conceded my potential role in this mess. SC is always a red state, and popular vote doesn’t matter, so…

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