Meta Question

KNOWITALL's avatar

Is being a conservative a fluther faux pas at this point in history?

Asked by KNOWITALL (18507points) 1 month ago

Several right leaning jellies (on some issues, not all) have left and I had another message this morning from someone else deactivating, saying “there is no reason for any conservative to be here. Far too much vitriol.”

Personally I don’t see fluther as a political site, but rather a think tank from all walks of life, all countries and enjoy that part of it quite a bit.

Do you think that’s true?

Would you prefer to have an all liberal fluther?

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

202 Answers

stanleybmanly's avatar

This is rough country for conservatives and particularly hard on those either advocating or defending the behavior of the current President. But for those conservatives feeling piled on here by hostile liberals, I will only state that is not the fault of any liberal here that their boy is the aberration without parallel.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@stanleybmanly Hmmm, I’d like to hear what YOU think of differing opinions.

Do you appreciate hearing all sides of an argument/ issue, or would you prefer to just be around other people who all agree with your politics?

raum's avatar

In general, I usually welcome differing opinions.

But in the current political state, we have moved past just differing opinions. Now it’s more about how can people still vote party lines and support aborrent policies that violate basic human rights?

Hard to have a conversation—much less a productive debate—with someone when you feel like they have so little respect for basic human rights.

That being said, it doesn’t help Fluther to be a bubble. Makes for a stagnant pond.

ucme's avatar

For Liberal, see patronising self righteous bore.
I mean seriously, you yanks are fucking obssessed with politics, religion & guns , made worse on here by those who love nothing better than the sound of their entitled voice.
As you say @KNOWITALL this place should be for all regardless of tedious bullshit, full time occupation for some dullards though.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@ucme You kind of surprise me with that post haha!

You think we’re (the US) all obsessed or fanaticals or have you seen this site erupt regardless of who’s in office?

I’m simply upset that so many good people are leaving, I’m sure the collective would be better with them here. Maybe you’re right and we just need to tone it down a few notches.

Patty_Melt's avatar

I would like to share my opinions and view that of others without it going personal.
I feel outright hatred here when I express my support of Trump.
I am tired of people focusing on personal appearance and flaws rather than political effectiveness.
My support of our president does not extend a love everything about him, chance card.
I would like to see a “clean fight“of discussion and debate, without the orange ape pussy grabber bullshit.
I am neither all conservative nor all liberal.
There is nobody on this planet who will satisfy the desires of even one person fully. With that in mind, I wish I could feel more available to express my views without feeling like a target.

By the way, I like the geese thread.
It is allowing people to blow off some steam, show some humor, without any real personal attacks.

Edit: I frequently feel like this site is populated by the DNC.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Patty_Melt I actually completely understand that, thanks!

Demosthenes's avatar

Different sites have different demographics. As someone who’s more in the middle, I don’t feel at home on a more liberal site or a more conservative site.

Whether or not people are actually being attacked, people don’t like being surrounded by people who disagree with them. A website isn’t fun if you know that by posting a certain opinion, you’ll have half the site jump on you.

I had someone here P.M. me to accuse me of being a troll for asking the questions that I do; I’ve also been called “alt-right” in a pejorative sense. On another site where conservatives dominate, I was blocked by half the site for my lack of support of Trump and called a “progressive communist” every time I expressed an opinion.

Fuck everyone, seriously. XD

stanleybmanly's avatar

@KNOWITALL I do want to hear all opinions, and it is not a good thing If we really do run conservatives off. @Demosthenes has a point. If fluther is to be considered a liberal site, perhaps I should infest a conservative site of the same caliber as this one. Can anyone name such a place?

stanleybmanly's avatar

Thanks. On my way

Patty_Melt's avatar

I miss @Cruiser.
I lament the loss of other jellies who were made to feel vulnerable.
My impression of Fluther was that the intent is to help people.

Lately, it feels like a site with a political agenda, rather than a group of people prepared to bouy the vulnerable.

Demosthenes's avatar

The problem is that this site has a small user base, which means most people are used to each other, and people tend to band around one another and this can lead to dogpiling, especially when it comes to new users. I know of one user that left not too long ago. It was not even over anything political, but it was situation where she was being ganged up on. If I got ganged up on, I’d probably leave too. I don’t have time for that noise.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Demosthenes Yes, I think if more than three consecutive posts start with your name, it can get tiresome.

@Patty_Melt I would describe it more as a plain old Q&A site, albeit more user friendly and with a loyal base. I’ve seen vulnerable people completely slain so they left, and I’ve seen new users come in lambasting everyone with their opinions with no respect or friendliness at all. It’s fluid, but I don’t think we help the vulnerable much, just imo

Jaxk's avatar

There is no question that this site is primarily a liberal site. @Patty_Melt said it very well. Most discussions wether political or not, will start much the same as this one. @stanleybmanly gave us a good example of vitriol without any point. Intended to shut down any disagreement and foster a pile on. Surprisingly the pile on didn’t happen here but it’s still early.

KNOWITALL's avatar

I stayed away awhile before and after the election, but I really missed the mental exercise of jellies here.

Just hate to see another leave that I felt contributed a lot. Feels like we are trading intelligence for vitriol, not good for rational debate.

canidmajor's avatar

The reason it feels like a “site with a political agenda” is probably because the politics of the day are affecting all of us so intensely, and that is why so many want to discuss this stuff.

This is still the Internet, there will be loads of contention whatever the topic.

Patty_Melt's avatar

When a thread is specifically non political such as, “what breed of dog is best for herding sheep?” and someone turns it political, I hold contempt for that person, no matter what side of the fence they claim.

Demosthenes's avatar

I should also mention that just because a site is more politically balanced, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a more pleasant place to be. It does eliminate the dogpiling, and that’s a good thing, but I’ve seen sites that were pretty balanced, neither conservatives nor liberals “dominated”, but what it meant was that every political thread resulted in hundreds of comments of bickering and insults and cheap shots, and you could guarantee it would happen each time and go on indefinitely because the numbers were so even. Some things are more dependent on peoples’ personalities than of what political side they’re on.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Demosthenes Agreed. I was just curious if the majority wanted it liberal only or still enjoyed debate.

filmfann's avatar

I am a moderate, and I am often unhappy with posts here from both sides.

Patty_Melt's avatar

Well, neither party is like the nazis.
People on either side like to use the word Nazi to describe the other, but it is a dumb comparison.
I find it difficult to believe any Trump is involved in the movie project. I hope not.
Then again, I don’t know a lot about the circumstances of the allegations or conviction.

Caravanfan's avatar

@Patty_Melt The alt-right is filled with neo-nazis and white supremicists and the Republicans actively court them now.

stanleybmanly's avatar

There are a lot of things being said by and about both sides that are demonstrably silly, but there are some assumptions in this Trump-anti Trump debate that should be debunked, and the first of these is that objecting to the man is strictly a liberal conceit. As though only liberals fail to see “the empreror’s new clothes”.

flutherother's avatar

Fluther isn’t a political site and it is a bit disappointing if someone decides to leave for political reasons. You can take part in Fluther without expressing any political opinion at all but if you do you can expect your views to be challenged and your facts to be checked.

Patty_Melt's avatar

Sure, you can participate without saying anything political, but that does not mean what you said won’t be turned political by someone else.
That has happened to me several times.
Some people can’t leave off it no matter what the subject was initially.

canidmajor's avatar

I haven’t seen that @Patty_Melt, can you give an example, please? I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, I am saying I honestly am not aware of that.

janbb's avatar

If we use the terms anti-Trumpism and pro-Trumpism would that be clearer than throwing around liberal and conservative?

stanleybmanly's avatar

Probably. Though conservatives have hitched their fate to the Trump wagon as liberals did to Obama.

marinelife's avatar

No, although less heated discourse would be good.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@janbb I don’t see how it could possibly help.

Example: I support Trumps support of Isreal.

So that would be a pro-Trumpism.

How does that change anything? I’ve been told here that if you support ANYTHING Trump does, you’re a pos. Which is the most juvenile generalization I’ve heard for quite some time, can’t we raise the bar a little?

My support of Obama’s ACA was because of the issue/idea, not the President, didn’t make me a better or worse human being. Well maybe a better human being to some of you…haha

MrGrimm888's avatar

Whether you are liberal, or conservative, has NOTHING to do with being called out for comments that are obviously based on hatred, or intolerance.
I hear far too many conservatives crying that they are attacked over opinion. That is incorrect. Racism, and white nationalism, are to be shamed. PERIOD.
I can fully accept differences in opinion, but that is not what some conservatives are pushing.
I used to really give smashthestate a hard time. He was actively trying to start violent revolution (which ironically, isn’t such a bad idea anymore.) He wasn’t a conservative, I don’t think. Anyone pushing hurting people, and I will jump on them hard.

I called out all conservative jellies on the thread about lack of outrage over Canadian immigration, or whatever the thread was called. It’s not far back, and can be easily looked back up. I highly recommend all conservative jellies read that thread. Especially the last third. One jelly openly comments on how white people are superior to the other races, and that all others are essentially bad for the country. That’s not just an opinion. That’s precisely the type of thinking that started the Nazi movements in Europe. That bullshit needs to be shut down.
The problem with many conservatives, is that they are comfortable with having these thoughts, and voting to oppress and hurt other people. But when they are called out, they can’t take it.

Fluther is simply a microcosm of the country, and the world. People are starting to push back. It’s very possible that Fluther will indeed end up with no conservative jellies. At least the Trumpers. If you look around the country, and the world. Trumpers may be ostracized from everywhere, if Trump’s war on everyone not white/Christian continues. The recent protests show a growing intolerance for the extreme right, and an increasing willingness to shame, and call out the Trumpers.

I will never celebrate losing a jelly. But I see conservatives leaving, because they can’t take the heat THEY started, to be cowardly.

The thread about Canadian immigration policy, was started with the intention of creating a fight. When the fight got to real, and they found themselves in indefensible positions, they left. They’d be much happier sitting and listening to Hanity, or Limbaugh fill their heads with bullshit.

My recommendation is, if you can’t take the heat for making abhorrent comments, don’t make them.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm888
1) Yes racism is shameful for our society, liberal or not.
2) No fluther is primarily liberal, which is what this whole post is about.
3) You know some liberal leaners have left, too, doesn’t make them cowards.

The reality is, if you are intent on changing someone’s mind, you’ll have smarter arguments than ‘racist’ or PM’ing people what a ‘POS’ they are.

I mean some of you write about your own poor life choices, maybe we should just stop being quite so harsh on strangers…that’s all I’m saying.

ScienceChick's avatar

Yeah, Someone had their balls handed to them after a particular vicious anti-LGBTQ question and now they think it has to with them being conservative, but they’re playing the sad victim because I think they are embarrassed. Nothing about being conservative. I have conservative friends. It’s the complete purposeful ignorance and bigotry this person continued to show. That’s it. If you think ignorance and bigotry is equatable to conservatism.. then, that says something . If you think my life ‘choice’ is poor, then, get over it because I will call you out. He kept digging a hole for himself. I simply shovelled it back in, so no one would trip in it.

Caravanfan's avatar

I saw a great tweet by @stealthygeek that I’m going to paraphrase:

Alt-right: Literally Nazis
Alt-left: Wants trans people to be able to pee

https://twitter.com/stealthygeek/status/1028989151864123392

ScienceChick's avatar

If anyone has a screen shot of the question and ensuing answers, it would be helpful here.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@ScienceChick Which thread was that in or do you mean the PM’s you sent him?

ScienceChick's avatar

I said the question and ensuing answer. Are you threatening to post my personal correspondence? Worst case scenario is I get banned. I’ll just create another account. My skin has grown thick fighting for the rights against bigots and ignorant bullies. My skin is so thick now. I bounce. Best case scenario is that I’m over cynical and this guy really is that stupid and his stupidity and ignorance resulted in something I got over defensive about. In which case, he and I and others could talk about the question and why and how it was offensive and how those of us who are old and cynical could take it as a targeted offence.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@ScienceChick I don’t see that info. I would like to read the thread, because obviously I missed something. I have several LGBTQ friends, so maybe I need to see it.

Of course I’m not threatening anything, you didn’t send me any.

ScienceChick's avatar

No, I didn’t send you anything, but you seem to be in regular correspondence with the first-said victimised party of the first part.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@ScienceChick Yes this Russian collusion from the “right’ on fluther to bring down some person that’s been here four months and enjoys insulting people.

Now people I’ve known here for a long time like Dutchess or Jleslie and others, ya, I do care. If they told me they were hurt and leaving, I’d say something then, too, although not much I can do about it.

I said maybe I missed something in a thread, since you’re basically accusing someone of being a homophobe or whatever you are implying, which isn’t actually that clear.

Yes, I message a lot of people here, that’s not a crime.

ScienceChick's avatar

@KNOWITALL defensive much? I think I’ll just leave your response as is. It speaks VOLUMES.

FlutheringBlonde's avatar

@ScienceChick Are you talking about the Q asking what gays would think if soneone had sex reassignment surgery to be with them? That Q was appropriately removed. It was a f*cked up Q.

ScienceChick's avatar

Something tells me that if Dutchess or JLeslie were the offended party, they wouldn’t make a third party speak for them. I think they would engage me in an intelligible way. The person you are defending has not done that.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@ScienceChick M, kay….still don’t know which Q it was or what you’re on about.

ScienceChick's avatar

@FlutheringBlonde Yes… and the person who posted it is feeling hurt and rejected and has engaged @KNOWITALL as his champion.

canidmajor's avatar

Oh, good grief. You two should just back off each other for awhile, you’re turning two threads into a playground scuffle.

Or just come at me for interfering, I have things to do, so I’ll miss most of it, <eyeroll>

ScienceChick's avatar

@canidmajor KNOWITALL knows exactly which question thread this is about. She’s being disingenuous. Unless @Yellowdog has just bitched at your doorstep and moaned without mentioning what it was actually about.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@ScienceChick I never saw the thread so I have no idea what happened.

This thread was intended as a question, exactly as posted, nothing more or less. If I had something to say to you personally, I would.

@canidmajor Anyone can say or PM anything they want here, not my site nor am I trying to stifle anyone. I don’t care to fight with random’s either, I too am busy.

ScienceChick's avatar

I think we need to know to whom you are referring to. When you write: Several right leaning jellies (on some issues, not all) have left and I had another message this morning from someone else deactivating, saying “there is no reason for any conservative to be here. Far too much vitriol and the Issues to which you are referring, in order for us to discuss.

ScienceChick's avatar

If we don’t know who and what vitriol and issues, then we can’t really discuss it, can we?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@ScienceChick Nope, I don’t need to bring up anyone in particular to ask a question to the whole group in Meta. Lots of people have left and many more will leave, I was just curious.

Patty_Melt's avatar

DING! Ladies, to your corners.

ScienceChick's avatar

@KNOWITALL have only conservatives left?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Patty_Melt Everyone’s being polite now that the confusion was cleared up, I thought it was going well tbh….lol

@ScienceChick No ma’am.

ScienceChick's avatar

then. @KNOWITALL .. what’s your point.

ScienceChick's avatar

and you can call me many things, but you can keep your southern bullshit ‘bless your heart’ and ‘No ma’am’ to yourself. My name is Professor or Doctor, as far as you’re concerned from now on. I don’t take on the bullshit you and yours espouse. You talk plainly to me, or you don’t talk. If you can’t come to me with issues and problems like a normal, no political point scoring, human being… then don’t come to me with your issues. Come at me, bro… as your people say.

ScienceChick's avatar

Oh, there he is…... Speak of the devil…..

KNOWITALL's avatar

My point is exactly as I wrote it in my Question, for the second time.

Lady, I don’t give two flips for your preferences on anything. Seriously.

Yellowdog's avatar

If we don’t know who and what vitriol and issues, then we can’t really discuss it, can we?

Would you like me to post some of them? No, I really don’t think you’d like that.

I apologized to you the best way I knew how for the question that offended you, You don’t have to deal with me anymore, so lets keep it that way. I actually admired you for a long time on Fluther and your unique perspective on things and your way of saying them. I was wondering if you were a girl I knew from Denmark, Anna Mohl, But you are not,

I’ve shared the offensive question with the concerned party. I’ve apologized to you ScienceChick. I won’t post any PMs because I assume they were for me only, but they were vile. Lets leave it at that.

ScienceChick's avatar

Those weren’t an apology… it was a defensive plea. You showed no
interest in understanding.

ScienceChick's avatar

Do you really honestly want to understand why it was offensive?

ScienceChick's avatar

and it wasn’t just you… it was some of the responsives that really just made me go… WTF!?

Caravanfan's avatar

Can we step back for a second and define what “conservative” is?

Yellowdog's avatar

I’d honestly want to understand ANYTHING you have to say if it would make anything any better, But I’m done with Fluther. I don;t think Im the one Knowitall was referring to originally but who needs it, And NO this is NOT an appropriate time to discuss conservatism.

ScienceChick's avatar

I think we just need to talk about what ‘decent, empathetic human beings are’.... and then maybe @KNOWITALL can reevaluate. Baby steps.

ScienceChick's avatar

@Yellowdog You and I have more overlapping subjects than we have on the divisive side. I just need you to take a step toward me.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Caravan I think it’s important for them to sort this misunderstanding out actually, if they can. As the author of the Question, I’m happy for it to derail if it helps.

Yellowdog's avatar

Lets be friends, then. @ScienceChick I’m going to take a step back from Fluther. I have no ill feelings towards you Have something to say? There’s probably more to MY story than you know. Not sure I want to say it here.

ScienceChick's avatar

I’m not prepared to go as far as friends… but a start is a start. If you are willing to engage in a conversation, it’s a start.

Yellowdog's avatar

Fine. But my intention is to put Fluther aside for the most part for reasons @KNOWITALL started with. This site is very negative—tired of being bashed with about 85% of questions—in the way the responses are.

I guess if you actually agreed to be friends, you wouldn’t be you.

I really don’t care what you consider me as, but it WOULD help me a great deal if I understood what has struck such a chord of indignation. I really do think you have a good cause or reason for it. Whatever it is, I really DO need to know it. And my apology WAS sincere. My explaining my reasons is NOT necessarily a plea for my ‘case,’

Yellowdog's avatar

And, thanks for your sincerity

Yellowdog's avatar

Oh, go on and consider me <bleep> if you want. You really wouldn’t be you if I weren’t that to you, We’ll let it be for now…

MrGrimm888's avatar

@KNOWITALL . I can guarantee that I have never threatened, or gone after another jelly through PM. NEVER. I try to make sure that ALL controversial material is on public display. If anyone tells you that I have been harassing them on PM, I give the Mods full permission to share ANY one of my PM’s, with ANY jelly.

Some liberal jellies left too. If they left, because they couldn’t defend a comment, or series of comments, yes, they are cowards. Or they were wrong, and to much of a coward too admit it.

And. One thing Fluther, and social media has taught me is, there is no changing of Trumpers’ minds. I have ZERO interest in doing so. But I will challenge them to defend their beliefs morally. ALL fail. ALL deflect, and lie. Accept one jelly. He finally had the courage, to at least show his hate, and fear.

My inference, from the way things went shortly after that, is that some slithered off, rather than defend the racism, and intolerance that they were always accused of, and suddenly concretely exposed of, by the confession/declaration of another conservative.

@Yellowdog . I disagree. I think the push back that the real problems in this country are getting are very positive. Not “negative.”

I respect you, and I hope you have the introspective, and observational tools available to you to, to see your shameful views, and change for the better. The world will always enjoy coexisting with you, if you change your mind…

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I never said YOU did, but it happens.

Thing is, I don’t call people cowards or racist, I just don’t think that’s cool or kind. In my area, those are fighting words, right up there with child molester.

And from what I know of @Yellowdog, ya’ll are completely wrong about him and his situation/ thoughts.

But see, that’s what society is becoming, we label people without it being correct and go from there leading to a lot of this kind of miscommunication. Whether we voted for Trump or not, or will again or not, we are all still humans and should be treated as such, ya know, like you say about immigrants and how we should treat them-which I agree with. Peace.

MrGrimm888's avatar

My thoughts on YD, are just like my thoughts on Trump. I base them solely off of his own rhetoric. If you would actually read what he said, in the Canadian immigration thread, I will dare you to defend it…

For the record, I don’t enjoy calling people out.

My father used to use the “n” word a lot. He was amused that it bothered me. One day, I told him “if you ever use that word around my children (future tense) you will NEVER know your grandchildren.” He hasn’t used the word in many years.

Calling someone out, on a personal level, isn’t necessarily a malicious act. It’s an attempt to help them, and better our society. If they are beyond help, they will be a cancer, and should be treated thusly.

Look at how the Trump administration views brown people? They are stopping billions from even visiting, and hunting down millions to deport. They clearly view brown people as cancer. To be cut out, kept out, and stifled.

Well….. People are calling them on this…

If immigrants come in here spewing the type of hate I hear from Trumpers, I’ll give them shit too.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I get it, and honestly I think calling people out is a good thing, because we can’t grow if we aren’t called out. But in an appropriate way.

If I were going to call you out, seriously, I would PM you politely and tell you why I was upset or needed clarification, etc…. You know, you and I have PM’d before and we’re good. I

think you generalize a lot in favor of brown people and don’t acknowledge their legal situation, but that’s okay, too. I’ll keep pointing out that all anyone is asking is for them to do it the LEGAL way. That is not hate or discrimination to me, that is a security issue.

When an Irish woman is tired of arguing ya’ll have done well. I’m out, Peace.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Deuces K.

Yellowdog's avatar

In the greater scheme of things, not much said here is very relevant—this is a Constitutional Republic, and the kind of government we already have is the one that has always been and the only one that will function. I will leave Fluther in the hands of Knowitall, @Patty Melt, Molly McGuire, and others who stand with this constitutional republic. Apologies again to ScienceChick. I posted a question which she and Tinyfaery (?) got really indignant and angry about. I requested it removed and it was pulled,

I do distinguish between posting a question that offends others and getting bashed—as opposed to getting bashed for expressing an answer asked for. Most of the hate (yes, hate) on Fluther happens when someone calls you to answer and you are bashed by a mob—or those who just simply start a question as an offense to others.

Yellowdog's avatar

And yes, @KNOWITALL being a conservative, OR a constitutional republican is a faux pas at least on fluther at this point in history

FlutheringBlonde's avatar

I agree with everything @MrGrimm888 has said. Calling people out when their words are racist, homophobic/transphobic or misogynistic is not hateful. Life is becoming more difficult for these minorities because of Trump. We need to be loud and speak out against this hateful rhetoric.

At this point in history… When I first joined Fluther it was December 2008. I was a Democrat who supported John McCain. I got so much shit from the left here. Many thought I was a conservative. Conservatives have always been in the minority here. This is nothing new. As @flutherother said, this is not a political site. Don’t expect people to be nice if you want to talk politics.

Caravanfan's avatar

@Yellowdog NOW can we discuss what it means to be a conservative?

Soubresaut's avatar

@KNOWITALL—I’ve heard many people coming from a conservative perspective say that it’s an issue of legality versus illegality. The problem I see, standing where I do, is I don’t want illegal immigration, either, and claiming that I do is false. I want better pathways for people to become legal immigrants (yes, that means more legal immigrants). I also want a justice system that moderates its use of force in proportion to the crime—for my own sake as much as anything, because if a parent trying to find a better life for their child is treated with the same level of vitriol (and rhetorically conflated with) people committing heinous acts of violence, what sort of treatment should I expect from that legal system, should I cross it? Add to that the practical reality is that law enforcement is a limited resource, and more attention in one area often means less attention in another. I’ve also seen too many people frame the argument as a matter of upholding current law, when really what they want is to find ways to reduce pathways to legal immigration while drumming up fear of those would-be immigrants to create an “us” versus “them” dynamic. I’m not saying that’s you, I’m just saying that’s a position that can often be found behind the “it’s about legality” argument, and it makes me leery of anyone presenting that sort of argument. The Trump administration is currently doing what it can to reduce the legal pathways to immigration, to ramp up the force used against illegal immigrants (no matter their situation), and to stoke fear about immigration, all while saying it’s simply trying to maintain the law. That’s what I take issue with.

rojo's avatar

No, not really. You just have to be prepared to defend your decision to go down that path.

FlutheringBlonde's avatar

Asking a repeat question used to be a fluther faux pas. People would give you grief and post links to similar questions to yours.

for real

rojo's avatar

PS my answer was to your original question. I still feel that way. I do think there is dogpiling and will occasionally PM to avoid such but that is all part of it. We lose folks all the time, unfortunately. The last big exodus was over religion, now it is politics, well Trump really, but what will the next one be?

Big thing is, take a break, develop a thick skin and come back swinging. Don’t allow others to chase you from the site, make it into what you want.

just as an aside, I used to thoroughly enjoy the constant sniping between @Jaxk and @Jerv, two very smart jellies with extremely opposing viewpoints but both willing to stand their ground, and was sad to see that come to an end (anyone know what happened to @Jerv).?

rojo's avatar

Final point. If ya don’t want to get into it, don’t answer questions that will get you involved.

I asked a question the other day about tools for a road trip I don’t think that your political leanings would have any bearing on your (hopefully) helpful responses to it. And it did not blow up into a Trump/Anti-Trump free-for-all. So, maybe, just use your smarts, help out a friend and stick to non controversial topics instead of deserting the ship.

Soubresaut's avatar

The difficulty I have with Trump is that much of what he does goes directly against my sense of what it means to be a moral person in a moral society. He also lies about most things that he says, so it is hard for me put much stock into what he says.

I have heard analysis that during his campaign rallies he made some promises that were more liberal than his Republican opponents—and despite the hollowness of those promises, people believed him. It frustrates me, because I don’t understand why people are willing to believe the promises of a man who lies as often as Trump does, nor a man who has a history of doing everything he can to get out of contractual obligations to pay people for their work (aka, doing everything he can do to break business promises to advantage himself at another’s expense). That doesn’t seem like a trustworthy person, and it concerns me that to so many people that did. At the same time, the idea that people like the candidate who appeared more “center”—in some respects, certainly not others—helps me hope that the country isn’t as divided on some issues as those who benefit from such divisions would have us believe.

But there clearly are still disagreements, and so I’m left wondering what the difference was that made Trump an attractive choice. Was it that on those more “liberal” promises he made, he was willing to make impossibly grand and sweeping promises while the Democratic candidates were more conservative with their promises? Or was it that those promises were being made by a Republican candidate, which felt more comfortable to people who view themselves as Republican or conservative or right-leaning? Or was it part of the country’s current more general antiestablishment feeling, that whatever else Trump might be, he was at least a political outsider? On their own, I could understand each of those things. But then I get to the parts of Trump that are untenable for me. (I won’t list them out to try and avoid political debate). It’s really hard for me not to look at those parts and think: “Whoever voted for him had to be okay with those things. How could they be okay with those things?” And I know there’s not a single answer to that question, but I’d be lying if I said I didn’t have a hard time sitting with the various answers I come up with.

I don’t really think of any of that as strictly “conservative,” though. I mean, I know that the US’s political discourse right now collapses terms together, so we have “left” and “liberal” and “Democrat” functioning interchangeably, and “right,” “conservative,” “Republican” functioning interchangeably (and horrifyingly “Trumpism” seems to be trying to sidle itself up with those terms)… but those terms aren’t necessarily the same, even if they’ve been calcified together, and most people still mean different things when they use those terms, even if we all pretend like we’re meaning the same thing, which makes political discussions a mess. What Americans means when they say they’re conservative. (Wish they had a complementary article for what Americans means when they say liberal, because it’ll have the same breadth of opinions. They do have this look at Moderates in America which seems relevant). I don’t personally align with most of the definitions of conservative—which isn’t a big shocker—but there are a few that I do, or could, depending on how they’re fleshed out. There are definitely others that go against my sense of what is right or moral or just.

(To be clear, that doesn’t mean being a conservative is faux pas on Fluther. Just that, depending on a person’s definition of conservatism, I’ll disagree with them on certain things. But that’s true for everything.)

FlutheringBlonde's avatar

@Soubresaut I wish I could love your answer. I do with a Fluther GA.

johnpowell's avatar

Stop being a victim. If your ideas are great take the hit and defend them.

If you want wet-wipes on your sensitive bits head on over to RedState. I get banned from there all the time. And I just want to be able to see the oncologist without my first interaction being about my insurance. True story. I had to make a appointment with the oncologist three weeks ago. Fifth question was about my insurance.

I DO NOT KNOW IF I HAVE CANCER RIGHT NOW… I will find out on the 30th!!

But Obamacare keeps me kinda covered. Without Obamacare I would probably die.

I AM NOT JOKING

So you are a racist and that could fuck my Pre-Existing Condition status. I pay for my health insurance every single month. Hundreds of dollars a month. But your Orange racist hero wants to dismantle it.

Again. If you voted for Trump I think you are a racist.

stanleybmanly's avatar

And the piling on thing? I’m all for civil and reasonable conversation until it veers beyond the borders of rational possibility. For example, anyone attempting to posit the idea that Obama exhibits flaws and defects to match those of the current fool will receive no sympathy from me.

janbb's avatar

@Caravanfan Ask your question as its own OP if you want a discussion of it. Although it seems germane here, it’s really a derailment of what is going on.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@johnpowell . About 17 years ago, I had a follow up appointment with a vascular surgeon, about some pain in my leg. Long story short, he said it was possibly a DVT (blood clot.)
He was nice enough to tell me that it was potentially fatal, before asking about insurance. I had none, at the time. He literally said he couldn’t keep discussing the issue anymore, asked me to leave. I was shocked.
I applied for financial aid through multiple routes. Eventually, I got enough to qualify for diagnostics, which confirmed that I did have a DVT. That required hospitalization, and treatment. So, I had to get more financial aid.
I spent over a week in the hospital. Fun fact. You aren’t supposed to move much, when you have a DVT, because it can break loose, and kill you. So. All those days , that I had to spend trying to get financial aid, I was rolling the dice, and could have dropped dead…
Even with the financial aid, I ended up owing over $75,000! At the time, I was in my very early 20’s, and was making about $10,000/year. I also had to have blood tests done three times a week, for an additional 6 months. Thousands more in debt.
This event, that was simply an act of God, severely impacted the rest of my life. I won’t say that I would have been POTUS, if it hadn’t happened, but I wonder how things would have been, had I not been saddled with an insurmountable debt, just when I really started my life….

I got Obama-care, for a couple years. That was great. My lovely state changed some rules, so I lost it…

I’m extremely sorry, to hear about your situation. To an extent, I know what you’re going through. I hope it works out well.

These two instances , of JP’s, and mine, are perfect examples of how people’s lives are affected by political agendas, of the right. While some see health care, as merely a “opinion,” I see it as a position that can hurt, or kill people.

While some see racism, as merely an “opinion,” I see a political party deliberately hurting minorities, and they are only able to do so, because they are enabled by racists, and similar minded people.

There are vast differences between me getting heated, and toeing the line, in a debate about football, me calling someone out over political leanings, or comments, that are hurting people.

Trumpers who get dressed down, because of their own comments will receive no pity from me. And I repeat, I consider it cowardly, to make such remarks, and not only not try to defend their positions, but cry to other jellies in PM’s, and make grandstanding exits…

I consider this type of person exactly why Trump is in office. Now these cowards, can hide behind Trump, and let him speak for them, and they can affect their desired change through policy, without getting mud on their names. I consider supporting Trump as the same as a KKK member dawning their hood…

Yellowdog's avatar

You had me with you for a while until you started bringing racism into it.

I don’t make enough money to qualify or participate in Obama’s Health Insurance Marketplace. Just a letter saying I didn’t qualify—and would not face penalties for not buying their insurance, But I did eventually (2016) get on medicare and medicaid from when I was shot in a robbery in 2011,

Technically I owed more than $100,000 because the Tennessee Criminal Injuries Compensation Fund only pays $35,000. If I weren’t a victim of crime the bills would be closer to $140,000 Additionally, there were extremely high bills for the ambulance, labwork and further hospital bills for physical therapy, reconstructive surgery, etc etc. and regular healthcare when I was not able to work. The most difficult to work with was Labcorp. But other than that, even the people I owed eventually wrote it off and my credit was not affected.

The pair who shot me drove a BMW and although they had felony records (one a Juvenile the other a 20 year old) were living in HUD housing in my Parents’ neighborhood. You are not supposed to be able to do this as a felon. All those he was living with lost the home when the shooter went to prison. And I think, egad—no one gave ME free housing when I was twenty. In fact, it wasn’t until 2015 that I was able to get on Social Security Disability.
Some classes of people, even if they commit felons, know how to work the system. Had my parents not been alive I would have died on the street. So, I fail to see how I am someone donning a Klan hood and belong to some privileged class,

In the robbery, I only had missionary materials, I was going to one of those ‘brown’ places in the world you speak of, I had already been to Haiti after 2009, I also had a car that the shooters could not start because it had both alternater and ignition problems and is very tricky to start, Why they wanted a decrepit 1985 Toyota when they had a 2002 BMW is beyond me.

I was with you for a while in your post, and could have given you some tips on how most hospitals WILL pay for the uninsured—in fact that’s why so many uninsured go to ERs, Some hospitals are really zealous about collections but they cannot harrass you in mail or over the phone anymore, and they cannot come after you legally for medical purposes. My credit wasn’t even affected.

I really don’t know what this has to do with Trump. Obamacare was never rescinded, and the Democrats obstructed every bill Trump proposed shortly after he came in office—at least three. What we have now is clearly NOT working, however.

My response in this thread was not because of any “crying to other jellies” but because ScienceChik was insinuating that I was who Knowitall was talking about, and knowitall had never even seen the posts ScienceChik was referring to.

You keep referring to racists and ‘brown people’, There were only 22 KKK members at this national protest last Sunday—but thousands of Antifa members and sympathizers inciting a riot, not against the klan members, but against Trump. Some vowing to kill him as a group effort ‘like Muammar Gaddafi” Black unemployment is the lowest ever in the history of the nation. That wasn’t the case in 2014. So don’t blame Trump,

The PMs referred to, I think, were PMs that were made to me and for my eyes only, But they were pretty vile. I was not the one making PMs to anyone, or grandstanding exists, I have said why I was leaving, I have exposed you without namecalling or category mistakes, I think you just enjoy pretending that you have the moral high ground here, and I reallycant leave this hate infested website without pointing it out.

Health care in this country is expensive and no one can afford it. But several viable solutions were proposed and none of them passed the democrats. I don’t see where ‘brown people’ (a racist term, I might add) are the victims—I used to care for a disabled woman who had little gov’t assistance except for medical—and EVERYONE in her building were African American, and ALL of them had all of their health needs met.

chyna's avatar

^According to data from the Bureau of Labor statistics, the black unemployment rate fell from a high of 16.8 in March 2010 during the recession to 7.8% in January 2017.
From Obama’s inauguration to Trumps inauguration the black unemployment rate fell 4.9 points from 12.7 to 7.8 and declined another 1.2 percentage points after trump took office.
I think if you are going to talk about the wonderful things Trump has done, please research and get your facts straight. Not just take your facts from a Trump tweet or Sarah Sanders perpetrating lies told to her.
And the reason Trump’s insurance was voted down was because he didn’t want people with pre existing conditions to be insured. In my home state, one of the poorest in the nation, that would be about 80% of the population. It’s all good for you because you are on Medicare, but for those of us who would not qualify, it’s a death sentence.

Caravanfan's avatar

I agree with @Yellowdog. Health care is expensive and Obamacare can be expensive. The answer is to have locally managed Medicare for all, but that’s a no go in today’s toxic politcal environment.

I disagree with @johnpowell. Not all Trump voters are racist. One of my best friends is a Trump voter and he voted for him for reasons that had nothing to do with race. He is kind to everybody.

FlutheringBlonde's avatar

How can a kind person support a President who bullies people online every damn day. I will never understand the mind of a Trump supporter. Honestly, I don’t want to understand. There’s no excuse that would placate me.

rebbel's avatar

Hundredth!!!

MrGrimm888's avatar

@Yellowdog . I respect you, more than any other conservative jelly. I think you have a good heart ( ,and are maybe capable of seeing your problem, ) And I respect your adherence, to your beliefs. I just think you’re wrong, to hold an entire race accountable for the actions of so few. But…. If you want to judge millions, by the actions of 2, that’s your thing…

I (my Mom and Dad,)left the US, for a few years, and came back. In the late 80’‘s.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@FlutheringBlonde The common retort is “but look at the great things he’s doing for the country”. It reminds me of the argument that Germany had full employment and economic dynamism under Hitler.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Lol! I’ve got a great job, at the machine gun factory!...

RedDeerGuy1's avatar

Happy that 103 quips and none removed by mods.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^That’s not bad, considering the subject. Interesting, isn’t it?

rojo's avatar

I don’t know for sure but I feel like they are more lenient in Meta.

Or, perhaps we have just been more civil and grammatically correct in this thread.

Whatever, I don’t think it is smart to taunt the ModGods.

Caravanfan's avatar

This quip will be modded for sure.

Caravanfan's avatar

Nope, not modded yet. Anyway, I left fluther about 8 months ago when I dared to express a mildly conservative point of view. I got badly flamed and so I took a break. I’m no Trump supporter, but I mostly identify with a slightly right-of-center point of view on many things—which as far as Trump supporters are considered I’m alt-left (whatever that is).

FlutheringBlonde's avatar

@Caravanfan I remember the moment. I agreed with you and was sad to see you go. The backlash to your comments was fierce. I left not long after you for backlash I received for something personal to me.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Caravanfan Same. Welcome back, there are still a few of us around trying to get rid of those labels and stigma’s.

flutherother's avatar

No idea who you are but glad to see you anyway. (Hope it wasn’t me who flamed you off.)

Caravanfan's avatar

@flutherother No, it wasn’t you. The individual is no longer on fluther (I checked before I came bac), although he is probably here under a different name like me.

I’m not telling anybody my old name, although a couple have figured it out. One day, I may be public about it, but I’m still testing the waters.

flutherother's avatar

The pieces have clicked together and I now think I know who you are. You were missed in your previous incarnation so once again, welcome back.

Caravanfan's avatar

Thank you, I do appreciate it. :-)

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

Folks, the “conservatives” and “republicans” are not in office, they’re on hiatus for now. What we have in office is something else, something fringe and alien. Like many revolutions what comes after scorched earth is often not any better or often much, much worse.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

@Caravanfan ....and it is good to have you back ; ).

MrGrimm888's avatar

That’s not how I see it. The rep/cons, have hitched their wagon to the Trump circus. If they would like to actually display some of the morality they claim to have, they can stop this train anytime. But they seem to have made a deal with Trump. Get rid of as many brown people as possible, and they’ll deal with whatever… No hiding behind Trump…

Yellowdog's avatar

If that’s true, then why don’t we hear any of this in their language / platforms?

I know YOU live in South Carolina, but demographically speaking, most lily white demographic areas are very liberal, and most parts of the country predominately conservative are more balanced racially. A multiplicity of races and cultures live and work together. Meanwhile, liberals huddle in their white enclaves and private schools and shame the rest of us as not being diverse.

You keep saying the same thing over and over ad nauseum and you do have support for your answers in the Great Answer responses—but its extremely frustrating because it is wrong. Where are the Republicans, the conservatives, the Christians, the cabinet members, who are saying these things? Ben Carsen? Rudy Giuliani? Jay Sekulow? Ted Cruz? I can’t imagine ANY conservative politician or talk show host saying these things, even though you espouse it to be very common.

If what you’re saying is true, @MrGrimm888 and Republicans are racists, find some statements or political facts to support this. The silence is deafening

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@Yellowdog Where are all the BIGOTS ?

Yellowdog's avatar

Are they all in one place?

Yellowdog's avatar

well, since there’s no answer—— you will usually find that antipathy towards certain ethnic groups, or people of alternate sexual orientations, comes from other ethnic groups, Not mainstream groups. e.g. Black vs, Hispanic. Homosexuals don’t fare very well except in totally diverse populations that are mainstream. Some cultures and ethnicities such as Islam do not even believe homosexuals have a right to live. But I do not see Ted Cruz, Sean Hannity, or Diamond and Silk calling for anyone’s genocide. Or even ridiculing or belittling of such populations.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@Yellowdog Call on Trump to cancel all the security clearances of anyone YOU don’t like or if they are a Democrat.

That is the answer!

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@Yellowdog Fire up the GAS CHAMBERS !

It will be the Fuehrer will !

Yellowdog's avatar

It seems the security clearances being revoked are those of leaders in the nation’s intel who have lied to congress or leaked / conspired with CNN and PMSNBC—and have been demoted or fired. I don’t feel safe as a U.S. citizen knowing that such individuals have security clearance to classified information. If they will conspire with foreign nationals to influence an election, lie to a FISA court, or use national intelligence tools, resources and spying to sway an election,(National Intelligence branches working for one party and against another) there is no reason to trust them with national security matters.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@Yellowdog . I can’t help you sir. There’s a dumpster fire right in front of you. You just see cake, and ice cream.
Why you would bother to defend rep/cons, after your own racist comments is just odd.

As I mentioned before, many conservatives are to cowardly to speak publicly about their agenda. Their actions, or attempted actions, shout it from the rooftops.

Claiming that liberals live in white only fortresses, and are really the racists would be quite amusing, if I didn’t think you believed it.

I love that you cling to the fantasy conspiracies about everyone rigging the election, to intentionally lose. Again. Would be funny, if I didn’t think you believed it.

It’s quite disturbing how far astray one can be led, when driven by intolerance, fear, and greed…

Jaxk's avatar

Generally anyone that is fired will lose access to confidential materials. That’s true whether private industry or public. Why anyone would believe otherwise is beyond me. Trump is crass to say the least. I would love it if he were more eloquent but he’s not. Eloquence is not what we need right now.

Comment from KAREN VAUGHN (I haven’t verified the author but the sentiment is quite valid to me).

“Sometimes God uses the no-nonsense, salty sailor to get the job done. Appreciating what the man is doing doesn’t mean we worship the salty sailor or even desire to be like the salty sailor

It doesn’t even mean God admires or likes the salty sailor. Maybe He just knows he’s necessary for such a time as this.

I believe with all my heart that God placed that salty sailor in the White House and gave this nation one more chance in November 2016.

Donald Trump is what he is. He is still the man he was before the election. And without guilt, I very much admire what that salty sailor is accomplishing.

He’s not like me. That’s okay with me. I don’t want to be like him. I will never behave like him. I know we’ve NEVER had a man like him lead our nation. It’s crazy and a little mind blowing at times.

But I can’t help admire the ability he has to act with his heart rather than a calculated, PC, think tank-screened, carefully edited script.

I still believe that is WHY he became our President and WHY he’s been able to handle a landslide of adversity and STILL pass unprecedented amounts of good legislation for our country AND do great works for MANY other nations, including Israel.

I’m THRILLED with what he’s doing for my nation, for the cause of Christ (whether intentional or unintentional, doesn’t matter to me), and for the concept of rebuilding America and putting her FIRST.

I will not be ashamed of my position because others don’t see him through the same lens.

Should it matter to me if a fireman drops an f-bomb while he’s pulling me from a burning building? Would I really care about what came out of his mouth in those moments?

Heck no! I’d CARE about what he was DOING. He wasn’t sent there to save my soul and I’m not looking to him for spiritual guidance.

All I’m thinking in those moments is, “Thank you, Jesus, for sending the fireman.”

This man is crass. Okay. He’s not careful with what he says. Okay. You feel offended that he’s not a typical statesman. Okay. But he is rebuilding the nation my son died for… ...the nation I feared was on a fast track to becoming a hopeless cause.

Forgive me if I’m smiling.” GOD BLESS AMERICA”

ScienceChick's avatar

So, it’s a race war, then?

ScienceChick's avatar

@Jaxk You don’t know how security clearances work.

Jaxk's avatar

I know how they worked when I had one.

ScienceChick's avatar

Then you know that, just because you finish a job working for a government contractor, doesn’t mean you lose your clearance. You keep it up like any other professional qualification.

MrGrimm888's avatar

According to every article I have read, those top guys ALLWAYS keep their clearance, so they can advise their replacements.

@ScienceChick . Not just a race war. A war on everyone non-Christian.

@Jaxk . The latest conservative, to prove me right. Keep the hate coming.

ScienceChick's avatar

@MrGrimm888 So my Margaret Atwood reference wasn’t far off. That’s my impression from over here, as well.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Some conservatives have the guts, at least, to own their bigotry. But all seem to support the agenda. They want their all white, all Christian America. But they don’t want to be exposed, or called out on how terrible of a person they are. Kind of like a rapist, who hates it when victims fight, or protest. They are rapping America, and they want us to like it….

flutherother's avatar

@Jaxk Please don’t blame God for installing Trump in the White House. Americans have only themselves to blame.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^No. I loved it. Bunch of “Stable Geniuses!” LMAO!....

Patty_Melt's avatar

Well.

The answer to the original question appears clear, at this point.

ScienceChick's avatar

@Jaxk This is ‘security clearance 101’ http://veteranresources.taonline.com/security-clearances/ In order to keep them valid, a Periodic Reinvestigation (PR) is required every 5 years for a TOP SECRET Clearance, 10 years for a SECRET Clearance or 15 years for a CONFIDENTIAL Clearance. The entity that sponsored the person usually contacts them and says, ‘hey, do you want to come in and update your security clearance… it’s been ‘X’ number of years now and you’re due. We’ll sponsor the renewal because, even though you aren’t currently employed by us, we would like to be able to call you in if something arises’ and then I say, ‘Sure, I’ll come in.’ And boom. Done.

Jaxk's avatar

So you think Brennan may be called in for advice? I seriously doubt it. I see nothing that would be gained by Brennan having a security clearance.. If there’s no reason to have, cancel it.

I suppose I could scream racist bigot, etc. but I don’t operate that way. I’ll leave all that you and the democrats that seem to have no other way to respond.

ScienceChick's avatar

He may not get hired by the recent administration, but there are plenty DOD consulting firms that these folks retire and end up working for. Trump, being the petty wanna-be dictator he is, has taken the man’s ability to earn a living. Why would you be screaming racist bigot? I’m responding with facts and citations. My opinion is that when a man thinks he’s right with his god, he finds the capacity to justify every immorality. Any leader who has to evoke a god, obviously didn’t win the popular vote.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@Jaxk . Trump won’t call ANYONE in for advice. You’re right again!
Why would anyone want advice from someone who worked for the most powerful intelligence agency in the world? No clue. Oh wait, that’s you;)

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Okay try this one; Trump rejects all security clearances of Democrats in Congress.

OH only Republicans can be on committees that require a security clearance.

In Trump’s Words “Oh my bad.”

A Dictator in the making with the approval of the Republicans in Congress.

ScienceChick's avatar

I don’t think Obama took General McCrystal’s security clearance off of him and even let him keep all his stars, which was at his discretion because it wasn’t regulation. McCrystal went on to sit on several boards which would have required a security clearance.

Yellowdog's avatar

What did Brannon do to get his security clearance revoked?

janbb's avatar

He pissed off the Chief by criticizing him.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@Yellowdog He pissed off the short tempered . . .

Brennan said, ‘See you in Court’ is what I heard on the news.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Correct. He criticized Trump. That’s reason for dismissal, in the current administration. It’s reason for trying to ruin that person too. Very stable genius-ish…..

Yellowdog's avatar

Actually, he was involved in the creation and distribution of a fake dossier—passing what might best be described as opposition research (funny how they think such research is criminal when there is a trace of such attempts by Jaded Cushner…)

The Dossier in question was created by Fusion GPS using RUSSIAN propaganda and was paid for by Hillary Clinton.

Brannon also made sure this information (fake, but presented as truth) even while still classified leaked into as many media and senate sources as possible.

He was fired for this misconduct, but continues to spread bad information over American media.

There are at least ten in the FBI, DOJ and CIA who were involved in this plot to sway a U.S. election. Let’s give them the benefit of the doubt, assume Trump is as bad as you say, and they were trying to Save America.

Or, simply insert any fictiious presidential candidate, president elect, or president.

Any way you install this premise, U.S. Intelligence should not be involved in using the tools of intelligence to weaponize politics to favor one candidate over another. Nor should they be LEAKING CLASSIFIED information to American media. Nor should they be lying to Congress or the U.S, citizens about it when exposed in hearings on national television.

He can say whatever he wants on CNN and MSNBC and call POTUS a dangerous traitor—but he is no longer employed by, nor acting as, a U.S. Intelligence official. And given his history of misusing and leaking and distorting classified documents, he has no more business with clearance than the foreign agents (Christopher Steele) he worked with. We don’t need classified documents and political spin distributed across national media,

I certainly accept “He Pissed off the chief by criticizing him” —but there is FAR more to this story and it eventually will all come out. But thanks for your civil and concise answers.
It helps me to understand the reasoning behind such reaction against Brannon’s clearance to classified information being revoked.

janbb's avatar

You can’t even spell his name right, why should we accept what you are parroting from your news sources.

Yellowdog's avatar

I don’t spell a lot of things right. That fact has been established on Fluther,

You said I learned it in “Bible College”

But it doesn’t resolve the issue.

If all you know is what you said about pissing off the chief, then I understand the reaction. But I can spell C-Span (I think) and have seen a lot more revealed by the accused own mouths, There IS more to the story and it will eventually all be de-classifed,

janbb's avatar

It could be; I haven’t done the research. But the fact that at least twelve other high level intelligence people and generals, both Republican and Democrat have come forward to protest Trump’s action here speaks volumes to me.

What is going on in this administration is not normal for either party and I fail to see why it is defended to the death by otherwise intelligent people.

Yellowdog's avatar

Hey, I didn’t just misspell the name I got the name wrong altogether,

But playing games for political purposes using classified information to sway an election should not be done by intelligence officials, No matter how many were involved, if there was even ONE doing it, is pretty serious misconduct,

I concur that there is a lot I do not KNOW about what’s going on but I have to make some judgement on what (I checked and I think its BANNON with no R) has actually said in hearings.

Other than that, I am confident it ALL will eventually come out—because only Stormy and the former White House Aid are bigger news right now. So we’re getting there,

ScienceChick's avatar

@Yellowdog Investigating is what the CIA does. The material was handed over the the CIA which is the legal thing to do, so basically, you are accusing Brennan of doing his job. What isn’t legal is being contacted by foreign nationals with the promise of dirt on the opposition and NOT calling the CIA. Which is what Don Jr. did.

ScienceChick's avatar

You really only have to look at who is currently sitting in the dock on trial. Manafort.

Yellowdog's avatar

Yeah—over a 2005 tax case, How peculiar that THIS could come up in a Russia investigation…

ScienceChick's avatar

No… that isn’t just what it’s about, but you keep thinking that so you can sleep at night.

ScienceChick's avatar

Here is the full list of charges against Paul Manafort and it is the tip if the iceberg of what the Trump Empire is mixed up with.

Subscribing to false income tax returns
Number of counts: 5
Maximum prison sentence per count: 3 years

In an indictment unveiled in February against Manafort and his former business partner, Rick Gates, the special counsel laid out what it described as a years-long “tax scheme” intended to lower Manafort’s tax bills by hiding his income from U.S. authorities.

Manafort worked for years in the 2000s as a consultant for former Ukraine President Viktor Yanukovych’s pro-Russian Party of Regions. The tens of millions of dollars he earned for this work were put in foreign accounts, and Manafort used that money to fund a lavish lifestyle primarily through international wire transfers, Mueller alleges.

Manafort is accused of failing to report this income on his income tax returns, and falsely claiming he had no authority over those foreign accounts.

Failing to file foreign bank account reports
Number of counts: 4
Maximum prison sentence per count: 5 years

From 2011 to 2014, Manafort allegedly failed to file foreign bank account reports, known as FBARs, with the Treasury Department to disclose his control over his overseas accounts.

Bank fraud and bank fraud conspiracy
Number of counts: 4 counts of bank fraud; 5 counts of bank fraud conspiracy
Maximum prison sentence per count: 30 years

During the trial, prosecutors alleged that Manafort resorted to bank fraud to obtain loans for himself after Yanukovych was deposed as the leader of Ukraine in 2014, which dried up Manafort’s lucrative stream of income.

Manafort and Gates are accused of defrauding U.S. banks and other lenders by lying about Manafort’s income, debt and the nature of his real estate properties.

Prosecutors also allege Manafort and Gates knowingly doctored financial documents. One of Manafort’s accountants testified under immunity during the trial that she had been asked to misrepresent Manafort’s income by Gates.

The indictment alleges Manafort falsely claimed that a New York City condo was “owner-occupied” instead of rented in order to get more money when applying for a $3.4 million mortgage in late 2015.

It also says Manafort defrauded another lender by falsely overstating the 2015 income of one his businesses by more than $4 million, among other charges.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/15/what-charges-does-paul-manafort-face.html

ScienceChick's avatar

Awwwww.. and look at what just happened! Trump’s private lawyer…... imagine that. And imagine now, why Trump hasn’t released his tax returns. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/20/michael-cohen-under-investigation-for-20m-bank-report

rojo's avatar

@Yellowdog the extended timeframe for the investigation is a distract brought up many times by those who would like to see this disappear but I would expect to see involvement going back decades. He has been involved with Russian money laundering schemes since the early part of this century if not into the 1990’s and so to get a complete picture it will be necessary to follow the money in both space and time.
As for Manafort,, are the crimes he has been accused of any less criminal because they occurred a few years back?

MrGrimm888's avatar

Trump.has taught me something that I never knew. A sitting POTUS can really just do what they want. They ate above the law, and if Congress happens to be of the same party, or simply complicit, the POTUS doesn’t have to be checked, or held accountable for almost anything. I find it odd, that one of the most important jobs in the world, has no real qualifications required, nor any oversight….

chyna's avatar

I thought it was mandatory that all running presidents had to disclose their income tax returns. Guess not. And we now know why.
What makes me really sick
after reading sciencechick’s list above (so offensive to see it spelled out like that) is that Trump can and probably will pardon him.

ScienceChick's avatar

If the prosecution comes from a particular State, like New York State, then Trump can’t pardon him. Only federal prosecutions can be pardoned by a president.

ScienceChick's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Don’t lose hope in your system. There are checks and balances and while Trump is testing them, he can’t exceed them.

Yellowdog's avatar

@chyna Thanks for mentioning that @ScienceChick spelled it out so well.

Its former CIA director John Brennan for those who were misled by my misspelling.
It is doubtful that anything will come of the Manafort investigation and charges. He didn’t flip on Trump because he had nothing to flip with.

@MrGrimm888 what did they eat above the law? Is it illegal for us commoners to eat anything but the ten untouchables can get away with?

The Justice department is above the law, but not POTUS
The Justice departments can’t investigate themselves.

ScienceChick's avatar

‘The Justice department is above the law’? What the fuck does that mean?

Yellowdog's avatar

Who can investigate the investigators?
Who will make allegations against alligators ?
What the fuck does any of it mean?

flutherother's avatar

@ScienceChick There are checks and balances but they are only effective as long as people are prepared to stand by them and to use them. There were checks and balances in Germany’s Weimar Republic too until one day there weren’t. Through bullying and intimidation through sackings and revoking of privileges Trump is eroding democracy bit by bit as good men who have the interests of their country at heart are vilified and replaced by yes men.

The president is now reviewing security clearances for nine other high-ranking officials all of whom have criticised him. Many have also been involved in the investigation into whether anyone on the Trump 2016 election campaign colluded with Russia.

ScienceChick's avatar

@flutherother You are articulating everyone’s worst fears. The midterm elections really hold all the power here. If people can be bothered or if people stay home and do nothing…. that is all it takes.

flutherother's avatar

“Since the affairs of men rest still uncertain,
Let’s reason with the worst that may befall.” – Shakespeare

rojo's avatar

@ScienceChick and that is what is the most scary aspect. Will people care enough to get out and vote? As apathetic as the majority of US citizens are, I don’t expect it.
I will say that, even though we are on opposite ends of the political spectrum, I have to respect @Yellowdog. I may believe he is wrong but at least he cares enough to have an opinion and I would guess vote. (although if he does so, the bastard cancels out my vote dammit)

Yellowdog's avatar

Yes, the midterms can shut down all of this. And there will be bliss in the nation.

ScienceChick's avatar

Yellowdog has an opinion built on lies. Doesn’t that upset you, @rojo

rojo's avatar

As I said, I do not agree with his conclusions but at least he has the ability to express concern unlike the vast majority of America whose biggest concern is whether the Bud Lite is cheaper at Walmart or CVS.

He may have bought into the lies and even pass them on but he did not concoct them. That was from the big boys.

Yellowdog's avatar

I really don’t care if I’m right or not as long as you know that YOU are. I still MIGHT know something you don’t. Check it out if it is anything to you,

ScienceChick's avatar

@Yellowdog You have expressed here that you don’t die when you are killed, so I will leave any ideas that you might know things that I don’t to you. You’ve told me more than I need to know about you as a potential source of information.

ScienceChick's avatar

Things @Yellowdog has said in HIS OWN thread about the perils of being progressive…...

‘Cats have nine lives. Yellow dogs have dead dog lives. Ever heard of dead dog killer zombies?’

Regarding living in Los Angeles….

‘Who can live in ANY of those places? I get killed every time I go to any of them.
Instead of Hell I go to Memphis every time I get killed. Same difference.’

Sorry…. Faux News might have a channel for you. As for me and my University, you’re a loony and should be put in a hospital.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@Yellowdog . I’m afraid I don’t understand your comments to me, and therfore cannot offer retort. Please clarify “eating above the law,” and “ten untouchables.”....

Yellowdog's avatar

In your post, you said “Trump.has taught me something that I never knew. A sitting POTUS can really just do what they want. They ate above the law… ”

It was a typo,

As for @ScienceChick she just hates my guts and she has a University, She probably has a hospital, too. Don’t think I stand a chance.

The ten untouchables—well, POTUS is NOT above the law, But about twenty in the DOJ and FBI and the CIA director have been fired, demoted, or forced to resign. But probably WON’T go to prison,

Even if they receive texts from Christopher Steele saying things like “I sure hope the firewalls are holding I’m worried we might get exposed”

rebbel's avatar

Most of them have been fired by a clown.
To me, you absolutely make not any sense.
I think at this point he could kill a family member of yours in broad daylight and you would still (think you would) find a way to defend him.

Yellowdog's avatar

Only one. (was fired) by Trump—oddly enough at the recommendation of Rod Rosenstien.

The family member comment, heard it on MSNBC already. I thought it was Stupid and a cop out.

chyna's avatar

List of every person in white house that Trump fired I’m not sure what you are talking about @Yellowdog . You say in one post about 20 have been fired. Above this post you say only one.

Yellowdog's avatar

Those are white house firings
I am referring to the DOJ, FBI and CIA. The untouchables, They will be put in places they can look less controversial but no one will convict them,

The only one Trump fired was FBI director James Comey—at the recommendation of Rod Rosenstien. Comey was INTENSELY disliked from the left because Hillary was blaming him for her losing the elections. But once Comey was fired, they tried to make an Obstruction case out of it. Comey was a martyr. He says he is today.

Twenty people in the FBI, CIA, and DOJ have been fired, demoted, or forced to resign—mostly related to the Christopher Steele dossier.

tinyfaery's avatar

I think I just lost some brain cells reading this.

People leave for all kinds of reasons. This is just another one. Oh, well.

Yellowdog's avatar

Lisa Page left because she was going to be fired—her texts to Strzok revealed quite a bit about what they were up to (Strzok was fired and will probably be criminally indicted. Lisa Paige confessed.

Look, some of you guys have absolutely NO IDEA of anything that’s currently going on in the Justice department. Why are you wanting to get information from me? It will all be revealed, and is already about 70% unraveled. Check out the information from a source you DO consider reliable,

chyna's avatar

Seriously @Yellowdog. No one is wanting to get information from you.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Well. He’s at least attempting to show some sources. Other jellies won’t allow him to offer opinions. I’m one of them…

Yellowdog's avatar

Weh! Weh! (That’s me cryin’)

You hurt my FEELINGS!

MrGrimm888's avatar

Feelings are for women bruh…

Yellowdog's avatar

Hey, its hip to be—ah, I won’t say it. It’ll get me in trouble with the PC crowd.

MrGrimm888's avatar

It’s hip to be square…

janbb's avatar

I’m a circle and I resent that remark!

rojo's avatar

Y’all are so two dimensional.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Look. I can tolerate racism, sexism, bigotry etc. But DO NOT go after Huey Lewis and the News!!!!!!!!!!! It’s a scientific fucking fact, “it’s hip to be square!”...

rojo's avatar

more like Huey Lewis and the Fake News if you ask me

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Goddammit!

chyna's avatar

It’s Huey Lewis and Faux News.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Alright. If yall don’t stop talking shit about HL&TN, I’m going to delete my account. Is that a threat? Probably not….

stanleybmanly's avatar

I want a new job

MrGrimm888's avatar

You’re killing me Smalls….

rojo's avatar

Why @stanleybmanly ? Tired of Workin’ for a Livin’?

rojo's avatar

Personally, I want a new drug…. one that won’t make me sick….

chyna's avatar

I’m just feeling the power of love.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I’m serious! Stop it! Whah!!!!!!!!!!!

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