Social Question

MrGrimm888's avatar

Why can't white, Christian people, live in harmony with others?

Asked by MrGrimm888 (14707points) August 21st, 2018

It seems like a new trend. Christians, are at war with the world. What happened?

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

160 Answers

elbanditoroso's avatar

Why should they? Some (certainly not all) white Christians think that they are the top of the evolutionary ladder (despite their lack of belief in evolution), and that by definition all others are lesser people.

With that attitude, it is no sin to belittle and argue with their lessers, because they feel they speak to and for god. Once you are convinced that you are channelling god in your daily life, you have permission to do almost anything.

And before YD and KIA tell me how I am exaggerating and how not all Christians are alike, I will say – I agree. Not all are. BUT I personally know several – more than a half dozen, here in Atlanta – who day in and day out show the superiority complex that I describe. They are not my friends, they are people I know.

What you see in some white Christians today are the same personality attributes used by the Catholics during the Crusades and the Nazi Party just prior to WW2.

1 – fervent religious belief that gave its followers the belief that they could impose their religious will on others, up to and including murder to glorify their god

2 – a feeling that God had ‘chosen’ those people to do this odious work, and therefore they were not sinning, they were carrying out the word of their lord. Basically a ‘get out of jail free’ card.

3 – the impression that those people (Nazis and 13th century Catholics) were in some way BETTER than anyone else.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^VERY good response.

chyna's avatar

<— White Christian. I get along with, and live in harmony with most people.

janbb's avatar

Such a sweeping generalization. There are many Christian churches in my area that are working for social justice, for equality and for immigration rights. Unfortunately, it is the Christian right that gets the press but I don’t think it serves any good to make judgments on all members of any religion.

snowberry's avatar

I’m white, relatively anyway (compared to typing paper I’m anything but white, but I’m trying to work within your definition)! I’m also a Christian. As far as possible I try to get along with everyone (look how long I’ve been here for example). ;-D

With every people group you’re going to find subgroups that do not live up to what they say they believe. And often those same subgroups make the peace loving rest of them look terrible. I’m also not responsible for what people have done in the name of God anymore that I am responsible for how you butter your toast.

As for @elbanditoroso’s list… Hmmmm.

#1. I don’t murder, and I’ve never contemplated it. I’ve never met anybody who’s even considered such an idea. Christians who would murder others on a “mission from God” are not Christian, regardless what they call themselves. I have never imposed my beliefs on anyone, but I’m not going to get run over by a bunch of atheists either (again, I refer you to how long I’ve been here).

Point #2 is moot, since I do not fit #1.

#3 I don’t think myself better than others, but I know a lot of atheists and people from all walks of life who would place themselves far higher on the evolutionary chain than myself. Actually I think that image is rather amusing!

Whenever somebody does something I don’t like, I make myself feel better by making up stories about them. I wonder if that’s what you do too? It’s rather fun, don’t you think?

So the next time somebody cuts me off in traffic, I am going to tell myself it’s an atheist who considers himself far higher on the evolutionary tree than I am, and therefore believes he will not die if he causes a car wreck.

canidmajor's avatar

Cuz, you know, Kim Jong Un is so very white and Christian.

It’s not a white or Christian thing. It’s a grab-for-power, us-vs-them thing.

It’s a whoever-has-the-power-and-makes-the-most-noise thing.

Warlords in countries like the Sudan could take issue with your characterization.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

I know hundreds of white christians living in perfect harmony with others.

kritiper's avatar

I suppose maybe white Christians always feel like raccoons that have been treed by a pack of vicious hounds, real or imagined.

filmfann's avatar

I feel the people you describe are an extreme minority of white Christians, but are more noticeable because they are so offensive. Certainly I don’t fit your description, even though I am a white Christian.

MrGrimm888's avatar

This is already one of my favorite threads. Thank you so much for your passionate answers!

For those bringing up non-Christian bad people, that’s deflection. Same as a conservative bringing up Obama, in a Trump thread.

I would agree that it is relevant to declare that there are “good” Christians, and bad non-Christians, but I am aware of this.

Sweeping generalizations.

If Christians are being honest, they are the ones who do this the most. An honest ,true, Christian, believes they have the “correct” religion, and they are part of the “right” club, and then there’s everyone else. Just like in any other organized religion. Or. They aren’t a good pupil, of their respective religion… You can’t cherry pick from a religion. You are all in, or a blasphemer…

janbb's avatar

We Jews cherry pick our religion all the time. i do this, I don’t do that. One from Column A and two from Column B.

Members of most religions do; even the Catholics I know.

rojo's avatar

They can when they have the right kind of leadership setting the right examples.

snowberry's avatar

@MrGrimm Who are you to declare what I should believe? Do you think you’re God now?

Wait. I thought you were an atheist! Make up your mind, man!

elbanditoroso's avatar

Do the “good” white Christians (as everyone above insists that they are) have any responsibility to rein in the “bad” white Christians? Several of you responded “there are right wing Christians that are extreme, but I am not one of them.”

That sounds curiously parallel to what you read about Muslims and terrorism. The “good” muslims say -“the terrorists – they don’t reflect the beauty of Islam” even though the terrorist is invoking Allah and Islam in his actions. The “good” Muslims disavow the “bad” ones but don’t do anything about it.

I’m hearing the same dynamic in the replies above, but in the context of “good” christians and “bad” or “extreme” christians.,

MrGrimm888's avatar

@janbb . Then you aren’t religious. Not truly…

MrGrimm888's avatar

@snowberry . Where have I told you what to believe?

elbanditoroso's avatar

@snowberry – there are about a thousand shades of nuance between “christian” and “atheist”. It is not black and white.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@elbanditoroso . IMO, it is black and white. Religion’s have rules. You either follow them all, or you aren’t of that faith…

snowberry's avatar

@MrGrimm888 “If Christians are being honest, they are the ones who do this the most. An honest ,true, Christian, believes they have the “correct” religion, and they are part of the “right” club, and then there’s everyone else. Just like in any other organized religion. Or. They aren’t a good pupil, of their respective religion… You can’t cherry pick from a religion. You are all in, or a blasphemer…”

It sure looks to me like you’re telling me what I should believe. The truth is this is what YOU think about me. If you’re honest, you will recognize that.

elbanditoroso's avatar

@MrGrimm888 – interesting thought.

In Judaism, we have
a) Reform (Progressive) Jews
b) Conservative Judaism
c) Orthodox Judaism
d) Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
e) Hasidic Judaism
f) Reconstructionist Judaism
g) Secular Judiasm

and a couple more

Which set of rules should I follow?

MrGrimm888's avatar

@snowberry . Incorrect. That is what your religion demands of you. If you do not follow every word, to the word, of your religious texts, you are not a true follower. Not my rules… I will never tell a person what to believe.

@elbanditoroso . Not up to me. Pick one, if you like, and follow to the letter…

rojo's avatar

@elbanditoroso try becoming a Frisbeterian.

We believe that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and you cannot get it down.

elbanditoroso's avatar

@rojo – I like it.

MrGrimm888's avatar

A good wind can convert a Frisbeetarian…

canidmajor's avatar

OK, then I declare your premise flawed. Obviously, considering the number of white, Christian people in this country alone, they vast majority can, and do, live in harmony with with others. A very small, vocal contingent cannot. It’s a human thing, not a white, Christian thing.
Most of my previous post still applies.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Nope. White Christians, are clearly not living in harmony with others. They make up the bulk of Trump’s base, and the administration is clearly aggressively Christian, and anti-anyone else…

MrGrimm888's avatar

In fact, Trump has embraced the religious aspect of his base. That’s why he is so pro-Israel.

snowberry's avatar

@MrGrimm888 wow, you do think you’re all that and two bags of chips. Sorry, bub. That’s what YOU think I believe, or should believe. And if I took enough scriptures out of context, I would turn out even more bizarre than what you portray. You do have an interesting outlook on life.

Anyone want more popcorn?

snowberry's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I seriously am trying to live in harmony with you, but ya know, it’s impossible to live in harmony with someone who won’t have it.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^I’m not sure why you keep trying to focus on me.

Is popcorn necessary to see religion, as what it is? Do your texts contradict your own morals, and therefore actions? Hmm….. I bet they do…

Scriptures, can not be taken out of context, because the authors are long dead, so they can’t offer much clarification.
If you aren’t following ALL of your religion’s teachings, you are not a follower. I just don’t see a middle ground. Either you believe and act %100, according to your religion’s rules, or you don’t. If you’ve ever done, or said anything in opposition to your religion, you are a blasphemer. Right?...

snowberry's avatar

Wow. Just… WOW.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@snowberry . With all due respect, I have no interest living in harmony, with some people.

Not you. Really. But some people.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@snowberry . Are these not the words that a representative of your religion would use? I’ve heard exactly that, from people who consider themselves faithful.

notnotnotnot's avatar

@MrGrimm888: “It seems like a new trend. Christians, are at war with the world. What happened?”

This is a bit vague. How, exactly, are Christians at war with the world? I’m not talking about ideological disagreements. Are you suggesting that Christianity is driving most conflict? If so, please explain how Christianity fits into power, economics, and government.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

@MrGrimm888
I’m embarassed for you.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Forgive my lack of clarity. In America,a lot of white Christians, have aligned themselves with the Trump administration, and it’s agenda. It doesn’t take a sharp mind, to see the war. I will challenge you to bring up a single goal of this administration, that would lead to unity, or coexistence…

canidmajor's avatar

No, @MrGrimm888, look at the numbers. Because they are the base of 45’s administration does_not mean_ that the base of 45’s administration, and support group that they represent the majority of white Christians.

All thumbs are fingers, but not all fingers are thumbs.

elbanditoroso's avatar

Remember that white Christians are becoming an endangered species. Population trends in the US are clearly moving to a majority-minority population in the next ten years or so. There will be (collectively) more non-Caucasian Americans than WASPS.

Part of the issue for white Christians that they are fearful of a future where they aren’t the majority any longer. Perhaps lashing out, from fear of a non-hegemonistic future?

MrGrimm888's avatar

@canidmajor . I’m looking at society. This is where my opinions originate. Not in media, or assumption. My opinions, come from life experiences. And plenty of them…

BTW. I liked the fingers/thumbs thing, but I guess it’s over my head….

notnotnotnot's avatar

@MrGrimm888: “In America,a lot of white Christians, have aligned themselves with the Trump administration, and it’s agenda.”

Sure, and a lot have not. And many non-Christians support (and run) this administration. I don’t think Christianity is the common denominator here.

Additionally, many white Christians are the victims of the administration.

@MrGrimm888: “In fact, Trump has embraced the religious aspect of his base. That’s why he is so pro-Israel.”

Cynically playing to certain populations to gain power is nothing new. And neither is the US/Israel relationship. The religious base has always been a way to gain power and sell policy.

So, I don’t see what – if anything – is “new”. And furthermore, I am not sure this is the variable you’re looking for. We have some serious problems to tackle, and our Christian brothers and sisters have to be part of this struggle. Many already are.

Also, it might be worth looking at black Christians and how their view of the world and their sense of right and wrong is informed by the same religion. If Christianity can be used as a source of inspiration for people like Martin Luther King, Nina Turner, and Cornel West, what do you think accounts for people like Mike Pence? Could it be something else altogether?

MrGrimm888's avatar

I find it hilarious, that nobody challenges Eastern religions’ framework, in the same way they would western religions.

canidmajor's avatar

Your observance of society is limited if you don’t include larger studies of same, as you are only one, no matter how experienced. And if you don’t base any of your assumptions on media, where are you getting information?

I don’t understand your comment about my fingers/thumbs analogy.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@notnotnotnot . I’m sorry, I can’t really understand your question…
If you clarify, I will offer a response.

elbanditoroso's avatar

@notnotnotnot – two points to your question If Christianity can be used as a source of inspiration for people like Martin Luther King, Nina Turner, and Cornel West, what do you think accounts for people like Mike Pence? Could it be something else altogether?

1) Could it be that King, et al, were the victims of white Christians and that they found inspiration through their black Christianity?

2) Pence versus King, for example. Race, obviously.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^STEVE BANNON.

MollyMcGuire's avatar

They seem to be the only group who can.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Oh but they can as long as you follow their rules to the letter,doesn’t matter if they do,as long as YOU do they can live in harmony with you.

snowberry's avatar

Wait. How have I ever made requirements on anyone here? Nobody listens to me anyway. This idea is soooo nutty.

longgone's avatar

@elbanditoroso “Not all are. BUT I personally know several – more than a half dozen, here in Atlanta – who day in and day out [...]”

That’s not a good argument. It’s used by racists, homophobes, and the like because it’s so hard to disprove – but you probably don’t want to stoop to that level.

snowberry's avatar

If this language were applied to any “protected” group, it would be called hate speech. But because it’s directed at Christians, it’s totally fine.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Not all Christians are hateful, but it really does seem to be a growing trend…and one of the many reasons I bailed. I don’t know when it started, but maybe in the 80’s? When atheism started growing and started threatening the financial security of the churches? The congregations tend to do and think and feel the way their pastors tell them too. Maybe that’s where that ridiculous concept of a “war on Christianity” came from.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Also, something else to consider, being persecuted is part and parcel of Christianity. It mimics Christ and his persecution Daniel in the lion’s den. The actual persecution of the early church, where you could be killed for your faith. Dying holding on to your faith makes you a saint. They HAVE to feel persecuted to feel like they are being a good Christian…..so they’re setting up persecution situations.

zenvelo's avatar

My problem with this thread is the assumption that “Christian” is a description of a monolithic people, when in fact there are hundreds of variations.

@MrGrimm888 ”...IMO, it is black and white. Religion’s have rules. You either follow them all, or you aren’t of that faith… Tell that to Henry VIII, John Wesley, Martin Luther, and Roger Williams.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Millions of variations, because most of it depends on the individuals and their personality.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@zenvelo . Great points, as usual.

stanleybmanly's avatar

My sympathies lie (if you can believe it) with organized religions on these issues. The fact is that all of them have always borne the burden of being slightly out of step with the dictates of society, and the more rigid the dictates of the religion, the further back you will find the adherents. Today things are moving so quickly that no formalized systemic doctrine can possibly keep pace.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Come to think of it my sympathies also lie with white folks, and particularly those in isolated regions. The shift in reality must seem particularly abrupt and unforgiving. No wonder they are so susceptible to all that conspiracy nonsense.

Yellowdog's avatar

White Christian folks are mostly liberals.

Dutchess_III's avatar

No they aren’t! Most definitely they aren’t. Liberals are open to change, to new things and new ideas. most Christians are pretty much set in stone.

stanleybmanly's avatar

He might be right @Dutchess III. There are an awful lot of white Christians outside the United States!

chyna's avatar

<—-not set in stone.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

You could just um, look at the composition

Seems like a pretty generic slice of the population if you asked me. I have said it before but religion has more to do with the culture of the region you live than “beliefs.” The influence of others and the subconscious need to fit in is profound. Most don’t even realize it has happened.

stanleybmanly's avatar

That is the best “not set in stone” dog sculpture I’ve ever seen. Is it 4 sale?

Yellowdog's avatar

Set in stone or not, they do more benevolent work in the world than any of our government agencies. Christian Missionaries have gone to natural disaster sights and areas of oblique poverty and slavery, working for change, building hospitals and clean water sources since the 1600s,

snowberry's avatar

^^
100% true.

zenvelo's avatar

This missionary was definitely working for change….

Yellowdog's avatar

Thats not a missionary—and even the source looks like it was written by a deranged, crazy person.

snowberry's avatar

To illustrate, @Yellowdog’s comment, Mercy ships is a Christian organization founded in 1978.

The African Mercy is currently moored at a port in Guinnea, on the west coast of Africa. This nation is 90% Muslim, and 100% of the people they serve are black, and extremely poor, for Guinnea is a destitute country. Everybody from the deckhand to the nurses to the surgeons, pay their own way to be there. Mercy Ships only accept the best of the best to serve, and they have many applicants. You won’t find them pushing any kind of religion, but you will find them loving people, healing them, and treating them well. https://www.mercyships.org

You’re not gonna find any racists there. They’re too busy changing lives.

This is the Christianity that I know.

Mimishu1995's avatar

I find it hilarious, that nobody challenges Eastern religions’ framework, in the same way they would western religions.

By “Eastern” do you mean countries in the East like Asia? If that’s the case, then I think I can give you a bit insight.

I don’t know about other places, but in my country, you don’t see the same heated religious argument like in the US because people are conditioned not to challenge religion in any way. Religion has been around for so long that it made its way into our culture. A lot of our belief and philosophy are based on religion. So if you are to challenge the religion, you are challenging your own culture, your own origin. You are being a traitor.

And I’m sure you know that Asian people aren’t encouraged to go against the crowd. Everything the crowd does is right and if you have a problem with it, you are the problem.

You should be happy that you are able to voice your dissatisfaction to religion. Somewhere in the world some people only wish they could be true to themselves and be unhappy about their religion.

And if you think Christianity is the only religion capable of driving people crazy, there are accounts of Japanese monks torturing Christians to covert them to Buddhism in the 19th century. And I have personally witness a Buddhist cult that basically told people that the whole world except them is going to hell and they are the best species on Earth.

All it takes isn’t religion, but a cunning nutjob.

Demosthenes's avatar

I guess I’m not clear on where the premise for this question comes from; where do you get the idea that white Christian people can’t live in harmony with others? Of course there are some, like world-denying ascetics who choose not to live with others and aggressive fundamentalists who try and change other people’s beliefs to their own, but it doesn’t seem well-founded to act as if they are the majority of “white Christians”. Anyone who’s too aggressive in their beliefs (political or religious) seems to not be capable of much harmony. They seem combative and on edge by default.

MollyMcGuire's avatar

Some of these comments sound like they came right out of mental patients’ diaries. I was laughing but I’m not sure how funny it really is. More pitiful really.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Not more pitiful, than you. Don’t let the door hit you in the rear, when you leave…

@Demosthenes . I had to generalize some. From the responses, it seems that most understand the question.
The question is about the current presidential administration, and it’s agenda, which is backed predominantly by white christians.

For those jellies mentioning “charity,” you are incorrect. It’s all just spreading the religion. It is NOT charity… It’s I’ll give you a sandwich, but make sure you know where it came from… I will not deny, that it helps people. But it is just a religion trying to spread it’s power and influence. That’s the Christianity, I know… That’s organized religion… I’m sorry , if my observations are offensive. I’m pretty offended by what Christianity is doing to my country, and it’s people…

Yellowdog's avatar

@MrGrimm888 At some point, I think even you have to admit that some of your views just aren’t reality. It wasn’t too long ago that you were saying that The Virgin Mary, the Mother of Jesus (and NOT Mary Magdalen) was a prostitute. And that this was a well-known established fact. That was the first time that your reasoning seemed unsound to me.

You are going on very long spiels and paranoia about Trump that I originally thought were just hatred or anti-Trump hysteria—maybe influenced by trends of media and propaganda in the country. But your views are essentially that we are in some kind of a Nazi holocaust, and that view just isn’t reality. Donald Trump is working with several African-American individuals bringing about prison reform and job opportunities and releasing people from prison who have long sentences for rather benign crimes like drug possession.

Yes, there is a lot of anti-Trump propaganda and a lot of people crave it like coffee. WHite people are not the propagators of hate in the world—America is doing more than everyone else combined to bring aid to the world, and a great deal of it is being done aside from that by the Christians you seem to have such wild ideas about,

The premise of your question is not reality. White Americans and other white Europeans and their ilk are the ones bringing aid to the world. About half of it is done by charitable organizations, and more than half of that half are Christian organizations.

Lets revisit your question about how horrible white people are—that includes you by the way—specifically, why can’t white Christians get along with anyone. Why are Americans, dominated by Christians, such a force of discord in the world. Is that how you see reality, seriously?

Yellowdog's avatar

Its one thing when its rhetoric on fluther. Its another when you really espouse that these people with other political views need to be shipped out of the country or driven ut of the public sphere. And I think you really DO believe that.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@Yellowdog . There are no facts, in regards to Christianity. The only facts are, it was created by men, to control men.

Again, you crow about charity. It is NOT altruistic. I’m not going to give a religion credit, for doing what it does ; spread under false pretenses.

I have not sugar coated anything here. So. If you read it from my mouth, that’s what I believe. I have my beliefs, from observation, not a fantasy book.
Has it never occurred to you, you may be incorrect with your choice of God? Let’s seriously look deeply at this prospect. After all, I’m sure each religious person thinks they worship the correct deity. Somebody has to be wrong.

I would like for you to imagine that Trump is a hardcore Muslim. This Trump, is pandering to his base by changing the SCOTUS to majority Muslim, and will use this to change the country into what Muslims would prefer. He bans billions of Christian people from even visiting America. He makes it law that women have to cover their faces. He will try to make the most extreme parts of the religion law. Etc…

Now. How would you feel about that? Being as I suspect that you don’t believe in the Muslim deity, or the Muslim way. Well. This is how I feel. I am watching people guide their lives, and try to guide the country, in the direction of their false deity. I used to almost vomit, when I would hear GWB say things like “this is what God wants.” What if there is no God? Yeah. Well then, in that case, he was doing the bidding of an imaginary being, and real people were suffering.

I must concede, that I envy you. Your faith, must bring you much comfort. I personally believe that your God would be disappointed in your white nationalism, but that’s between you and “him.”..

While we’re pondering each other’s world views, I have to wonder why you insist that white people are so great. The “accomplishments” you tout, have been accomplished at the tip of a sword, or the barrel of a gun. Genocidal expansion of Europeans, is nothing to brag about. That colonialism, is responsible for much of the world’s plight today…

Yes. I am classified as a Caucasian. Forgive me if I don’t feel any pride for that. I would much rather claim the small percentage of me, that is Cherokee Indian. But. That’s kind of hard, when you look like a viking, as I do…

Now. You go read your fantasy book, and listen to Limbaugh, and keep up your dream of who you think you are, versus the person who spews divisiveness, while claiming superiority to everyone.

Feel free to judge me. Or hate me. I think I’ll manage to make it somehow…

Yellowdog's avatar

You explain your position very cogently—but again, you are assuming falsely that Christianity is predominately a ‘white’ religion and that all white people are white supremacists. You can’t seem to think otherwise in spite of the evidence.

As for your view about what if Trump were Muslim and forcing women to wear veils in public and be sold as property, etc etc. is a moot point. Trump is NOT a Muslim nor imposing theocratic laws or religious views on anyone. Even Hillary Clinton is active in her Methodist church. Obama adheres to some kind of liberation theology and surrounds himself with that crowd. A.K.A. Desmond Tutu or Nelson Mandela The idea of Trump converting to Islam—That might explain how YOU feel, but it isn’t reality. Might as well ask, how would I feel if the police arrested me on some phony traffic charge every time I left my driveway—it is not happening, nothing like it is happening, and its a moot point.

Fluther is neither productive nor fun when every time I turn the computer on there are enflamed posts about me being a white supremacist or a Nazi and deserve whatever persecution I get. I would complain but really don’t want to stifle free speech and want to keep dialogue open. But the free exchange of ideas can only occur when you accept people the way they are—and not some paranoid fantasy about white supremacists hating “brown people” everywhere you look.

I suspect this thread offended a lot of people, and it is total fantasy and hatred. In order to build bridges or bring about positive change, you have to see people as they really are.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^I’m sorry you are incapable of the mental exercise, I requested. If you had bothered, you may get my points very well. It’s not moot, to try to get you to see another point of view. I didn’t remotely suggest that Trump would convert to Islam. I asked you to imagine how you would feel, if he were.

Accepting people for who they are.

That’s a VERY interesting point of view, from someone who doesn’t.

The thread is not about brown Christians. It’s about white Christian Americans, and their sudden problem with the rest of the world. And @Yellowdog , you are a prime example. You get people calling you racist? Have you ever read your own posts? Unless you are drastically different IRL, you are indeed a white nationalist. You constantly preech the white race’s superiority, and how minorities ruin communities. I will give you credit, for having the guts to give your true opinion.

As far as accepting you, for who you are, I will not. My father was super racist. After years of trying, he woke up one day. You know what’s really odd about his journey to being a decent person? Obama. Yes. Obama was the main reason he changed his mind about race. He actually listened to him. He saw him as more than an equal, but a brilliant, good man. Which Obama pulls off, right or wrong.

I can tell you now @Yellowdog , that if I didn’t care about this country, I wouldn’t bother calling you out. I am hopeful that you will see the error in your ways, and become not just a better American, but a better person. I think you have a good heart. That’s really important. Bit you need to look into that good heart of yours, and change. I don’t believe in your God. But I do believe that you can change, for the better.

I’m sure that this isn’t the first offensive thread that I’ve started. I find that offending people, is the best way to get passionate, genuine responses. I am uninterested, in carefully crafted responses. I love the raw passion, and honesty, of a pissed off jelly. Love it.

I am a cage rattler. I know that rubs some the wrong way, but that is secondary to getting some good, human reactions, to me…

JLeslie's avatar

I haven’t read any other answers, but my response is most white Christians do get along with others. It is the Protestants who settled America primarily in the beginnings and created a country with religious freedom, and as screwed up as some of American history is with being racist and horrible, overall we did pretty well relatively speaking. In our diverse cities people get along, Newcomers are mostly welcome. America is a very diverse country and most days everyone is getting along.

I grew up hearing my father say he was grateful to live in a country where the majority was Christian. At the time (70’s and 80’s) the Christian/Protestant countries around the world were going down the path of being meritocracies and making course corrections and they accepted us Jews pretty much, we lived free and generally safe. Women had more equality in majority Protestant countries. Catholic and Muslim countries weren’t doing as well on some of these parameters nor economically. Some of that has changed now.

Anyway, I’m not saying it was only the religion that necessarily influenced these things, it had to do with much more than that, but I certainly did not grow up thinking bad things about the majority of Christians, and I don’t now. I do worry how leaders have been using Christianity as a tool to control people, and some of it is bad, and a significant percentage follow the leader, but it’s not the majority of the Christians who are being horrible lately.

It’s a horrible sweeping statement to say what the OP said. It’s an incorrect characterization in my opinion.

snowberry's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I’m not clear what you would do with all us racist Christians. How far ahead have you thought about this?

If only white Christians are racist, what does it say about all the non-white Christians? Is it possible for any white person to not be racist? Wait! Aren’t you white? What are you going to do about this? May I suggest a certain tanning product? Would you allow the rest of us to have some? After all, if we’re not white, our racism will evaporate, right?

In lieu of the proper topical treatments, what would you do with the white Christians? Would you deport us? Where? Would you put us in concentration camps? Would you annihilate us completely? How? If you choose not to annihillate us, how about forced re-education camps? Or would scientific brainwashing techniques be more appealing to you?

In a mixed race household of Christians, would you treat them all the same, or only target the white folks? How white is white?

Obviously you’d need to get a lot of people to back you, because you couldn’t do it all by yourself. How do you propose to do that? Would you run for president, or plan a coup?

It sounds like you’ll need a new task force of secret police to address violations of your new policies. After all, on the off chance that some white folks would convert to Christianity, you’ll need to be ready for them.

And don’t get me started on money! The cost of this monumental undertaking will be well, monumental. How will you fund this? Confiscating all the Christians’ money would be a good start, but there are so many of us, the economy will take a huge hit. Will you tax all the rest of the population to help? You’d probably get quite a bit of push-back for that. Maybe other countries would help, but don’t plan on it.

Gosh @MrGrimm, the logistics of such an undertaking are staggering. Are you man enough for the job?

kritiper's avatar

It could be said, I suppose, that the question could apply to any person of any color of any religion/belief system.

elbanditoroso's avatar

@snowberry there are two historical precedents that may answer your question

1) During WW2, the USA rounded up thousands of Japanese Americans and imprisoned them in concentrations camps although they had done nothing wrong

2) In Nazi Germany, Jews, Gypsies, and various other groups were rounded up, sent to camps, and then murdered on the basis of religion or national origin (or sexual orientation, but that’s another issue altogether.

So there is recent precedent for the type of mass control that you ask about.

snowberry's avatar

—@elbanditoroso Oh yes, of course! I am aware of that, but I didn’t want to use the M word (murder), or suggest to Mr G that his ideas might remind some people of Hitler. Because Mr G’s ideals are so much loftier than Hitler’s, and I would not want to suggest comparison in anyone’s minds.—

Dutchess_III's avatar

The more fundamental and unyielding an individual is about their religion, the harder they are to get a long with, and the less likely they are to compromise. Radical Islam is an an example.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@snowberry . I understand that you are offended, but you are kind of just raving. You clearly did not read where I attempted to clarify that not just white people can be racist.

What do I think should be “done,” about the people this thread is meant to target? I would be fine stripping their right to vote. I don’t feel that any religious people should have any say, in how America works. I am aware of how extreme that sounds, but there’s my opinion. It seems far crazier, to me, to have people in power trying to do what they think their God would want.

I don’t have any desire to take any people’s money, or round anyone up. I have never suggested anything like that. Although, our federal government is in the process of rounding up immigrants, and deporting them, at the order of the POTUS, who is backed mainly by white Christians.

The things that the current administration is doing/attempting to do, are pushing a crystal clear agenda. Get as many brown people out, and prevent as many as possible from even setting foot on US soil. I can easily assume that any other “undesirables” will be next on the chopping block. I do think that the people supporting this agenda, would be much happier finding a new place to live. They could start a new settlement somewhere, and make it as white, and Christian as they want. The majority of Americans do not support the agenda being pushed through. Why should we suffer?

I have no problems with people worshipping whatever they want. The problem is that religious people start trying to affect radical changes in our country, to better fit their beliefs.
If it weren’t for that, they would not have drawn my criticism.

When I was young, I thought Christianity was a good, and tolerant religion, that promoted love, and peace. Now. That’s not the case. Of course, I am fully aware that there are many, of not most Christians, that are great people. This thread is not intended to offend them, but obviously it can. I guess it was a rhetorical question. At least as far as my opinions on “why,” certain people can’t coexist anymore. Perhaps I was searching for a different reason. I know that it is fear, of losing their culture, and privilege. But that’s just sad, petty, and greedy.

For those who are irreparably offended by the materials in this thread, I remind you that you are not forced to be involved.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm888 To me, stripping anyone of any color or race, of their right to have a say in the government of this country is a crime! I mean it’s what the white supremacists wanted and tried to do do to former slaves, because they were too ‘ignorant’ to vote!! I know you admit you don’t vote, but some of us, especially women and minorities, consider it precious and hard won right.

Maybe the Supreme Court judge put it best:
Mississippi’s suffrage requirements “reach weak and vicious white men as well as weak and vicious black men,” Justice Joseph McKenna wrote for the Court, “and whatever is sinister in their intention, if anything, can be prevented by both races by the exertion of that duty which voluntarily pays taxes and refrains from crime.”

**The Fifteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution prohibits each government in the United States from denying a citizen the right to vote based on that citizen’s race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^There is also supposed to be a separation of church and state. For very good reason. I think if your religion affects your vote, you shouldn’t be allowed to.

Why would you need to vote anyways? If your God wants a certain person in office, it should be a cinch, for a being that created the universe.

Churches also don’t pay taxes. But they heavily influence voting, without contributing. If anything, they are undermining the US government.

No. I think it’s time to move into the future. We wouldn’t expect policies to come from Greek mythology. It’s time to ignore the voices of those who would change the country, to better fit their respective religion. They can still worship whatever they like, they just can’t hurt the country by attempting to change it for their imaginary deities.

Women, and minorities voting. Yes. Hard fought battle indeed. It’s time for the new battle, of revoking the right, from those doing so much damage to the country. The EPA has been practically destroyed. Thanks to an administration that manipulated Christian voters. If they weren’t religious, they would not be vulnerable to such manipulation. Our very Earth itself, will now suffer, and that will cause untold suffering. Because of Christian voters…

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Kind of like the writers of the constitution and slavery, I get it. I disagree but I get it.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Many lessons have been learned, since the constitution was written. There are many more to learn.

Response moderated
Response moderated
Response moderated
Yellowdog's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Don’t you think that something like Human Trafficking or slavery or world hunger or genocide are more worthy to focus on? They’re very real, and the politicians you hate, and the Christians, are really working on them. What are YOU doing?

What about the need for homeless shelters and even animal shelters? What about valuing people over these insane schemes to do away with Christianity? Ignore it and devote your life to actual worthwhile causes,

Dutchess_III's avatar

What insane schemes to do away with Christianity? Christianity is doing away with itself. Kind of like trump.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Yes, but it will go with a bang, not a whimper. They think they can reverse history. They’re fighting a war that is already lost. In the near future, they will be a minority in America. Their grandkids will have to know Spanish. Hell. Their grandkids might be part latino! Aw man, I would love that…

@Yellowdog . I’ll make a deal with you. Change your thinking a bit, and then you can help others do the same. Then we’ll pick something else, to improve the lives of us all.

Let’s look at your examples of bad things. Slavery, hunger, genocide, and human trafficking. Racism, or bigotry, and intolerance play roles in ALL of them.
It’s why the Middle East, is in the shape it’s in. It’s why there is no one state solution in Israel. It’s why some leaders starve their people. It’s certainly why people commit mass genocide.

So. Knowing that such intolerance is at the base of many of the world’s problems, how important is it to eradicate now? If we could all just coexist, things will get better. Thinking one race is better than another, and looking down on the races. That’s only going to keep all those bad things you mentioned going.

Seeing every person, as a sort of equal, would go a LONG way towards giving all of us a richer, better life experience.

Handing out rice, and vaccines, that’s great. But that’s just a bandaid. Changing the way people think, now that’s real change, that will likely result in no need for future bandaids.

Isn’t there something in the bible, about give a man a fish, and he’ll eat. Teach him how to fish, and he’ll always have food?

Teaching each other, how to coexist, will help everyone, everyday.

I concede that animal shelters would be the smallest beneficiary, of a world of coexistence. But hey. Divide and conquer…

Dutchess_III's avatar

What is wrong with knowing Spanish? What does that have to with Christianity? And a couple of my grandkids are Latino. So fucking what? Some of them are also part native American and Indonesian. AND they even have Caucasian dna. So what?
It’s going out with a whimper as we speak. Christianity killed itself. Everyday I see another church that has closed its doors.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Dutch. IMO. There’s nothing wrong with Spanish. One of my sisters, and one of my brothers , are Puerto Rican. My sister speaks so fast, I can’t understand her. But I have some grasp of the language. I met a guy once, who spoke 9 languages, fluidly. I was very impressed, and embarrassed, that I only knew one really, and just had a tentative grasp on a second language.

My response was mimicking the Trumper mindset….

Yellowdog's avatar

@Dutchess_III Churches close their doors whenever people aren’t walking through them. So what? Its a way to save energy

MrGrimm888's avatar

^They must have great weed, in Tennessee…

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

“Everyday I see another church that has closed its doors”

Not around here, they’re constantly opening mega-churches.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Do they put their buildings up for sale or for rent to save energy too @Yellowdog? That’s what’s happening.

@ARE_you_kidding_me the mega churches seem to be thriving. It’s the little local churches that are dying.

Yellowdog's avatar

A lot of it depends on demographics. A small to medium sized church whose buildings were built between 1960–1980 in a neighborhood that is at least that old will probably be closing its doors. Most of these are small, dysfunctional churches that have been beset by decades of power struggles, dysfunctional individuals, gossipers, financial problems, a scandal,etc etc.

The well established evangelical churches aren’t going anywhere.

The mainline protestant churches are mostly dying out—the PC-USA, United Methodists, etc etc.

Churches that are part of The Emergent Church movement or the Willow Creek movement are doing exceedingly well.

The Christian cable channels such as T.B.N. are among the best funded media out there.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

Small ones are doing quite well here too.

Yellowdog's avatar

Every now and then you’ll see an ugly church in a field in an overbuilt and lost area—an ugly church building with an ugly name like ‘The Door” —and it harkens back to the early Billy Graham / Gospel Elvis era—it once had a story,

Dead churches are everywhere. And even some live, exciting groups don’t survive.

I DO believe Christianity is in decline. But in some areas, concentrations, and networks, it is very strong still,

MrGrimm888's avatar

I would agree, the disease has many victims still…

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

They still handle snakes here in these parts
I’m not kidding.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^ I can’t appreciate a difference between that, and any other religion…

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

I would say you have some extreme views then, not too much unlike religious fanatics.
It’s not a binary part of society.

notnotnotnot's avatar

@MrGrimm888: ”@notnotnotnot . I’m sorry, I can’t really understand your question…”

Sorry. I just realized that I never got back to you. Don’t worry about what I was rambling about. I was just trying to express that religion itself might not be the problem here. And while I understand your concern, I certainly don’t think religion deserves to be singled out as the cause of problem in the US or world.

Additionally, there are beliefs, ideologies, and institutions that I find far more dangerous and destructive than religion.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Ok. What is more damaging than religion ?

notnotnotnot's avatar

^ capitalism, imperialism, racism, sexism, xenophobia… for starters

MrGrimm888's avatar

Racism, sexism, and xenophobia, ALL have roots in religion.

notnotnotnot's avatar

I think religion – at least in the US – is downstream from capitalism. It is a tool used by capitalists – not the other way around.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Religion is the way to manipulate people, into being tools.

JLeslie's avatar

^^You are as extreme as the religious fanatics. Your disgust is unsettling to me.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Your lack of disgust, is unsettling, to me. If the Jews get oppressed, or worse again, it won’t be by people like me… I’ll try to help you, but there may be no stopping the current agenda. Once the brown people are mostly gone, do you think they’ll stop there?...

JLeslie's avatar

I don’t think anyone stops anywhere. If they don’t hate someone for their religion it’s their skin color, or their accent, or their national background, or their wealth, or their poverty, and the list goes on.

Religion can be used for good or evil. I know people who were not great people who found religion and became better people. Better for all of society, and for themselves. Then their are people being controlled in a negative way by religion, that goes on now. The politicians use religion to control others, and I hate it.

You wanting to rid the earth of religion is simply unrealistic. Why not embrace religion where it does good things instead of telling everyone who likes to walk into a church that they are horrible people?

It’s your anger level that is disturbing. I know online the interpretation can be incorrect, but anyway you seem angry. What happened to you regarding religion that you feel how you feel? Were you raised very religiously by ver struct parents? Did a priest abuse you? Did you get harmed for being an atheist? What happened?

I was born and raised an atheist. I didn’t have the slightest idea about some all knowing and controlling God until I was in my teens. My family got together for the religious holidays, but that was about food and being together. I knew I was Jewish, but everyone was something. Italian or Jewish or black or Japanese, etc.

The biggest enemy is not religion, but the people who use it in a bad way. If you did the earth of religion, then maybe yes that would remove that one fool for creating havoc, but is there anyway to actually rid the earth of religion? People seem susceptible to religion, so you might as well try to get along and not be so negative, and hope the good parts of religion save you when they are coming for you. Many Christians helped the Jews. There is good and bad.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

”^Your lack of disgust, is unsettling, to me. If the Jews get oppressed, or worse again, it won’t be by people like me… I’ll try to help you, but there may be no stopping the current agenda. Once the brown people are mostly gone, do you think they’ll stop there?...”

That’s the thing. It is actually the anger and the person or group not the religion or ideology that causes such harm in the world. All those things do is provide false justification, an outlet and fuel. You say it “won’t be by people like me” but here you are saying stuff like “I want to rid the world of religion.” A good number of people in history who did horrible things in the name of some ideological belief did so because they thought they were doing good.

Dutchess_III's avatar

“Racism, sexism, and xenophobia, ALL have roots in religion.” I disagree. I think those are man made traits and they use religion to justify them. If it wasn’t religion they’d be using something else. A “superior race” agenda or something. But religion doesn’t CAUSE it.

KNOWITALL's avatar

“If the Jews get oppressed, or worse again, it won’t be by people like me… I’ll try to help you, but there may be no stopping the current agenda.”

Just….wow. I see no truth in that statement at all.

@JLeslie He said in another thread his father was a super-racist that ‘saw the light’ at some point in his life.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I don’t remember that. So, how does that relate to the religion? Did his dad becaine a racist, because of his religion? I think that’s rare. Most people are racist for other reasons in my experience.

Yellowdog's avatar

People are racists because of tribalism and cultural differences.

People with the same skin color, build, cultural mannerisms as yourself, you identify with family and home, Someone who looks different AND looks to belong to some other group, on some sublinial level, are foreigners or invaders or a possible threat. ((( Who’s them INJUNS a’commin over yonder? )))

Some people only see human beings and onlyLEARN racism from their families, or outside influences or certain experiences. Others are naturally inclined to be suspicious and defensive of something else entering our comfort zone, and have to LEARN to NOT be racists,

There is absolutely ZERO correlation between racism and religion, except for a preference in worship styles between cultures.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie Not sure, just seemed to be pertinent, he didn’t share more on that in that thread.

rojo's avatar

@Yellowdog you are spot on regarding the comfort zone. We get comfortable and that which makes us uncomfortable we are inclined to be suspicious of. I think that many times this is why we can not feel prejudice against an individual but are against a generalized group. The individual is a known factor. It is also why I think that more than a racial divide we have an economic divide. It is just unfortunate that in many instances the two overlap and are exploited by those seeking to increase their power.

Yellowdog's avatar

If I looked like a neanderthal and was born in a normal Euro-type Caucasian family and community, I might get SOME social rejection but for the most part, people would just accept that I was a person who looked funny.

However, if Neanderthals in small numbers were gradually invading our community, we would reject ALL of them as The Others. “Us” and “Them” We might still trade with them. We might go to war with them. But we wouldn’t integrate. And if any of us married into the other tribe, we’d consider them and their offspring lost to us

Yellowdog's avatar

Yeah, Caucasians really DID interbreed with Neanderthals .. I know its in the DNA

Dutchess_III's avatar

Caucasians? I don’t think so. The Neanderthal were extinct by the time Caucasians hit the scene ~8,000 years ago.

Yellowdog's avatar

Didn’t they discover White Europeans had Neanderthal DNA?
I could be wrong on this. ..

Yellowdog's avatar

Yeah, I’m right on this one. Though not very knowledgeable. A single NEANDERTHAL gene differentes white people from African homo sapiens.

Dutchess_III's avatar

They discovered that everyone except Africans had Neanderthal DNA. The DNA was from the humans and Neanderthal coexistence in Europe 100,000 years ago. I don’t know that I’d call them “Caucasian,” though, any more than I’d call them “Asian.” Modern Asians have Neanderthal DNA too.

raum's avatar

[face palm]

Almost everyone outside of Africa has some Neanderthal DNA.

Caucasian is an ethnicity. Homo neanderthalensis is a species.

Yellowdog's avatar

So, you’re saying that its just ME that looks like a Neanderthal?

Dutchess_III's avatar

Thank you @raum.

I suppose some folks could look more like a Neanderthal than others.

rojo's avatar

Turns out H. sapiens is a very horny species and with f*ck anything they can get their hands into. Neanderthals, Denosovians, probably slow moving Bonobos, you name it, we probably had it. But, variety is both the spice of life and the basis for evolution so go for it.

I believe the numbers are around 3% common DNA between H. sapien sapien & H sapien neanderthalis for many people of European and Asian descent.

Dutchess_III's avatar

From what I’ve heard about Bonobos, they wouldn’t mind!

MrGrimm888's avatar

Dutch. Most of the big religions, originated before there was mass distribution of genes. In the beginning times of most of those religions, it was likely that all had similar appearances.

Religions promote lots of peaceful things, but they are adamantly opposed to all other Gods, and that causes huge problems. When you think of a Muslim, what image pops into your mind? When you think of a Buddhist, does your mind automatically give you a picture of an Asian person? Honestly?

Religion is a huge reason for the fractured societies in the Middle East. They are considered civil rights issues, by those who are familiar with it. As many of the same exact religion, also appear similar.

Call it race, or religion, but that’s the big problem with Israel and Palestinians. There is again, a difference in appearance.

@KNOWITALL . My father, to my knowledge, was never very religious. He tried to get involved with it a few times, but I don’t know why it never stuck.

@JLeslie . I was raised Baptist. Sunday school, and everything, for about the first 7 years of my life.
No abuse I’m aware of.
Parents weren’t strick about it, other than that I had to attend.
I try to keep my Atheism a as secretive as possible, in professional settings. I learned long ago, if you don’t belive in God, some people have a different opinion of you. Sometimes, they are really angry, at my denial of their deity’s existence. Many would fight, or kill me, if they could, for what I say here.

Religion is a tool. Invented by men, to control large populations. It had a sordid role, in getting the species through some rough times, and it is now solely a tool of manipulation.
Religion, is the most dangerous thing in human history. It should be thanked for the good times, if there were any, and abandoned.

Without religion. The world would clearly be a better place. Countless billions, or probably trillions of lives, have been negatively affected by religion. Definitely billions have died, because of it.

I really can’t see any way, to defend organized religion. It’s a cancer. And probably the biggest obstacle humanity will ever need to overcome.

JLeslie's avatar

^^The problem is, you aren’t going to get rid of religion so fast. Your delivery isn’t going to woo people who are questioning to the atheist side. Not in my opinion anyway.

Maybe if you lived where there were many more atheists you wouldn’t feel so worked up about it. If I remember correctly you’re in SC?

MrGrimm888's avatar

I am in “the Holy City” (Charleston, SC.)

I know religion isn’t going anywhere. I am not trying to stop it…

If I were. WOW. I’d have definitely been banned. I don’t like calling people’s exact beliefs in question. But I have no problems calling those people out, for their actions.

It doesn’t matter where I live. Trump gets to put a conservative Christian, stolen judge in the SCOTUS. That could have all kinds of ramifications, that the non-Christian/majority of Americans don’t want…

I’d rather fight these race, and religion discussions, on these threads, than in the streets. But the Trumpers need to pump the brakes…

I respect your opinions @JLeslie . But I could care less about your criticism of my stance on this issue…

JLeslie's avatar

It does matter where you live and who you are surrounded by. I’ve lived many places and interacted with many different people, and it’s way easier to be an atheist around Jews (about 40% of Jews are atheist) and people with higher education (who tend to either be not very religious, or not make any judgements about religious beliefs if they are) or be in very religiously diverse places where people could care less what each other believes, because they are just one of the many.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^I worked at a gun counter for a few years, part time. I was inundated, by right wingers, and others, who seemed to think that because I was selling guns, I must be like them. They said HORRIBLE things , about Obama, people of color, and laughed at women’s opinions. Those are the Trumpers. Being around them sucks. I sold more than one, a gun I knew was a piece of crap…

RedDeerGuy1's avatar

Maybe because the ones who cause trouble drama have too much free time.

JLeslie's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I know what it’s like. I’ve had people say bad things to me about Jews and Mexicans and northeasterners and New Yorkers and liberals and atheists, all of which directly references me or someone in my family.

My husband interviewed a guy recently who complained about his exboss and said he was cheap he’s Jewish.

I get it.

What you heard might be much harsher than what I heard, because men around men I assume are worse.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^It was pretty bad. I can’t say worse, than what you heard. But I was VERY disappointed. I thought our country had came further than that….

Mimishu1995's avatar

Wow I can’t believe this thread is still going :P

There was a disturbing experiment called “rat utopia”. A bunch of rats were placed into a specifically built flock of land without any escape, and there were provided infinite amount of food and water and the rats were free to roam around and breed. The land could hold up to nearly 4000 rats, but the rat population couldn’t reach half the capacity before it dropped down to 0, because as the population reached about 1800, the rat started fighting each other and compete hard for space and dominance, and the new generation lost their survival instinct because the parents were busy fighting.

Although the experiment couldn’t be completely applied to human due to the study scope, it managed to show an insight into human behavior: humans have a need to belong, but paradoxically can’t stand being in a big group.

You can see the mentality in action if you remember back at your school day. Why weren’t all kids at school friends with each other? There were small groups within the school, and each group had its own code to separate themselves from the rest of the school. It could be social status or an obscure hoppy. Sometimes the kids were at war with each other because they believed their group was the best.

Religion is just another thing for people to get together and slander other people. I doubt if religion ever disappeared, people would be more peaceful. They would just find something else to fight with each other. It has more to do with the human nature. And it takes a lot of work to stand above the hard-wired mentality.

snowberry's avatar

Mimi, that’s a profound statement. I wonder how many will get the message here.

JLeslie's avatar

@MrGrimm888 The thing is, in my case, almost never did what those people said to me bother me a lot. If a skinhead or someone with a confederate flag on their shirt said it it would really make me nervous, but it’s almost always some average person making some stupid statement, but when they meet an individual they meet them as an individual.

I’d love a world where no one made a stereotype or prejudgment about people, but some stereotypes happen because there actually are some cultural norms in some groups that stand out. If these things really exist how angry can we be? Humans naturally try to group things and people together. It helps them simplify a complicated world.

The same woman complaining to me about Mexicans might easily be a friend to my husband and me. One of my best friends complains about New Yorkers, and she knows my parents are born and raised in The Bronx, and I lived in NYS as a child. I think people often set too high a bar and ate hypocrites.

Would you never be friends with a religious person? Is your hate for religion that big? I doubt it. But, the way you talk, a Christian would probably feel like you think they are stupid or awful. It’s the same thing.

How about these statements: Religion is horrible, it ruins the world. Mexicans are horrible, they are destroying the country. Muslims are horrible, they hate America. Atheist are untrustworthy, they are communists. See how that works? It all sounds the same to the person who is in said group. Those same people have family members and dear friends whom they love who might be Religious or Mexican or Muslim or atheists. Probably, we should all be nicer and never group people together, but I think also we need to be not overly sensitive and not so easily offended, and just continue to prove that the stereotypes and assumptions are wrong when they are wrong.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@MrGrimm888 we might want to do a little more research. I believe that most ancient religions worshiped multiple gods. As far as I know, the first person to come up with the idea of just one god was Abraham. And that one god was a jealous, vengeful, warrior god. How could any religion that is based on Abraham’s god be anything but violent?

MrGrimm888's avatar

I may have failed in my clarity. Regardless of who worshipped who. The worshippers likely had a common physical appearance. One that was not lost on others. So. Certain people who looked a certain way, were tied to a certain religion.

My nephew’s basket ball team.once played a team of Jewish children. They all wore ,I guess they were yamicas? They were all white, and had similar bone structure. My nephew was very inquisitive about it. No doubt that when the subject of Judaism comes up, he has a mental image of those kids.

While the actual races, are different in some cases, varying from each religion, there are often aesthetic similarities. Like certain clothing, hairstyles. There are lots of easy ways, to perceive a person, as a certain religion, through observation/experience with it.

If I were to go to North Korea, I would likely be assumed to be Christian. Because I am white, and appear probably American, or western….

Dutchess_III's avatar

Well, those would be defined by continents and culture, not physical appearance.

Yellowdog's avatar

BTW are there any black atheists in America?

Someone pointed out to me in college, and I checked later in 2004— that their numbers must be very small. The University of Memphis has had a chapter of American Atheists since the 1980s and as of 2004 never had a black member. The student body is about 30% black,

Dutchess_III's avatar

LOL! Of course there are! Neil deGrasse Tyson comes to mind right off the bat.

Dutchess_III's avatar

What the hell would atheist have a chapter of anything for? What would they talk about? I’d never join such a chapter. Utterly pointless to me.

JLeslie's avatar

@Yellowdog I was at an exhibit at the Memphis library, and I sat in on a person who was telling the menorah in the window story from the late ‘90’s in Montana. If you don’t know the story, it’s about a rock or brick (I don’t remember) bring thrown through the window of a Jewish family. The local newspaper printed a full page picture of a menorah, and huge numbers of people in the community put the menorah in their windows in support of the Jewish family, and a statement that hate wouldn’t be tolerated in their town.

Listening with me was a group of very young black children, and I guess their teacher. Afterwards, I was listening to the teacher talk to the children, and he was discussing with them standing up for those who are different than you, and to my shock he mentioned atheists, something I never would have expected from a black man in Memphis. I don’t mean I assumed he had a problem with atheists, I only mean I don’t even expect atheism to occur to someone to be mentioned. It made me happy.

Yellowdog's avatar

There hadn’t been any at the U of M in Memphis when I LAST checked. That doesn’t mean a thing. But I just thought I’d throw in there that the overwhelming majority of blacks in Memphis at least are Christian, and politically active Democrat. Church attendants among whites is very low—depending on who you ask of course but maybe 10–17 percent,

JLeslie's avatar

^^Well, you are in a part of the country where there aren’t many atheists. Plus, I would guess it’s fairly taboo in the black community to be atheist, so who knows how honest the answers are. It’s sort of ironic, because I think at least some people think the jails are full of atheists, and I think of those same people as thinking black people are more likely to be criminals. Maybe I’m wrong to put that together in my head. I just feel like the implication is atheists are bad people, and bad I think dishonest and criminal.

Magical_Sky_Faerie's avatar

@MrGrimm888 is identifying the Religious Right or Moral Majority, the broad category or Christians who are ‘evangelical’ in theology and conservative Republicans politically. They do overwhelmingly follow Donald J. Trump.

As others have pointed out, there are other types of Christians and Jews, many of us do not even believe in a personal God. For me, religion is art and should be classified with the Arts and Humanities.

Atheists and agnostics are welcome in many mainline churches and synagogues. Although I do not believe in a personal god, there is a place in historic religion to contemplate the divine other. There is more to it than belief in a personal god, There is a mystical or liturgical presence we experience in the rituals and traditions. If that is god, so be it. I enjoy the quiet and contemplation of an historic house of worship.

I am in agreement with JLeslie on everything else.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^“Religion is art.”... Hmm.

I was saying, in another thread, how beautiful I thought some older churches are. I love the architecture, and the stained glass, and carvings.

Response moderated

Answer this question

Login

or

Join

to answer.
Your answer will be saved while you login or join.

Have a question? Ask Fluther!

What do you know more about?
or
Knowledge Networking @ Fluther