Social Question

mazingerz88's avatar

Who is the real enemy of the people, Trump or the free press?

Asked by mazingerz88 (21443points) 3 weeks ago from iPhone

If you think it’s both, are they on equal level the “enemy of the people”? Or one is more than the other?

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124 Answers

janbb's avatar

No question in my mind.

josie's avatar

False alternative. Neither is an enemy.
But, neither is doing a very good job of representing themselves favorably either.

mazingerz88's avatar

@josie Thank you for confirming that trump is wrong.

ucme's avatar

The people are the true enemy, Trump voters I mean.
Hiding in plain sight.

KNOWITALL's avatar

I think they both do a disservice to the American public tbh.

flutherother's avatar

America could not be America without a free press but it was America long before Trump appeared and will be long after he has gone.

seawulf575's avatar

Let’s dig a little deeper even. The media is a cinch. They are bias the live long day. That isn’t responsible journalism, that is propaganda. It does nothing except attempt to control the minds of people. That is not on the side of the average American. Trump I view as a symptom instead of the problem. Trump didn’t get elected because he was a great statesman. He didn’t get elected because he presented himself as a great leader. He got elected because he is NOT a career politician. Americans are pretty much fed up with partisan politics. The issue is that our elected leaders serve themselves and stack the deck against the people. Trump was elected because he showed he was against the business-as-usual politics. And he wasn’t the first to tap into that feeling. Remember Hope and Change? Obama tapped into the discontent people felt with our government and people liked it. His problem was that he really expanded the corruption in the government instead of battling it. The real issue in the political realm is the career politicians and the corrupt government.

kritiper's avatar

If either is an enemy of the people, Trump is, by far, the greater threat.

flo's avatar

Yes, whenever feel challenged, use all caps (I scream) online.

Patty_Melt's avatar

Every time I see people put the words free and press together I have to laugh.
From our country’s birth until now presidential hopefuls have owned their own newspapers to be certain there would be voters seeing them as they desired.
Abraham Lincoln bought a German language paper to reach that particular group, and he made certain it said what he wanted.
I believe that Trump is not just trying to oppose the media because of any negative they saw about him, but to bring people’s attention to how much the news gets involved in trying to affect public opinion about many things.

stanleybmanly's avatar

It’s one thing to state that Trump was elected because the people wanted change. But anyone proposing Trump as the remedy to corrupt or inept government is beyond delusional. There is just no getting around the faulty reasoning permitting the slow witted to swallow the argument that Trump’s irregularities are the inventions of a biased press. Does anyone with the brain of a rutabaga actually believe such a thing?

MrGrimm888's avatar

Trump himself is extremely guilty of spreading fake news. In a way, he is part of the media. He gets his news from FOX, and regurgitates it to his pitifully gullible base, with some extra lies sprinkled in. Then they regurgitate that to each other…

Trump is just a symptom, of the nationalism disease in America. A poster boy for bigotry, hate, racism, greed, and a preecher of intolerance.

IMO, we aren’t a democracy ,without the transparency a free press provides.

JLeslie's avatar

I’m not going to use the word enemy, but both could be better. I hate even using the term “free press” with the media situation we have today. Free press I think of balanced investigative journalism. Right now much of our media is very biased, but even so, they still are incredibly important. The idea of the press not having the freedom and right to report without fear of prosecution is one of the main things that made America different and special. Freedom of speech in my mind is primarily about freedom of the people to speak out against government, and freedom of the press. If we lose this we are doomed. We won’t be America anymore.

Trump really is a detriment when he stirs up hate and uses one liners to get people chanting. It’s shameful and destructive. It’s a horrible example for the citizenry. It is counter to American culture in my opinion, so in that way you could say it is a behavior that an enemy would use, but it’s very insidious.

Patty_Melt's avatar

Transparency? <Laughing so hard I puked a little in my mouth.>
Most of the national news broadcaster is no more honest than spam.
People think Trump is wealthy out to profit for himself and nothing more.
No individual is more money motivated than the major press outlets.

MrGrimm888's avatar

No. I judge Trump by his words, and actions. No conspiracies, no fabrications.

stanleybmanly's avatar

This pumped up invented contest as to which is the bigger liar— Trump or the press —should be seen for what it is. It is mounted as an attempted deflection from the minute to minute displays on the part of the President verifying his unsuitability for public office! It amounts to shifting the issue from Trump’s failings (which no one bothers to dispute) to the failings of the press (apparently for noticing.)

MrGrimm888's avatar

^His strategy is to discredit everyone, so that nobody trusts any media source. Works great for Trump. It’s cancer to our society though.

stanleybmanly's avatar

It’s worse—much worse. The President is footing the nation’s policies and objectives on suppositions that are clearly untrue and fly In the face of common sense. Take for example the assertion that the primary pressure on our borders results from drug running and other criminal enterprises. It is a hypothesis that any 8 year old must reject simply on the evidence in place of desperate people and their kids. While it is clearly impossible to delve any plausible remedy on the premise that our border problem is about rapists, career murderers and druggies, the President, in direct contravention of the Consitution he has vowed to protect, proceeds on the basis that these are criminals, while our own laws state that they are plainly not.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly you obviously missed the discussions about how without borders, we don’t have a nation. Any 8 year old could tell you that one too, but you seem to avoid it. Why is that?

MrGrimm888's avatar

An 8 year old might ponder why borders are SO important, all of a sudden. An adult could explain that it’s just politics. Stupid people scare easily. A lot of stupid people allowed themselves to be talked into seeing immigrants as a threat. A lot of stupid people who are themselves the product of immigration…

janbb's avatar

@seawulf575 I don’t hear anyone talking about no borders or open borders except people on the right. I think what most so-called liberals want is sensible immigration policy with a reasonable process for judging asylum and other immigrant rights. And a path for immigrants who have been here for some time and are making a life here to gain documentation and a path to citizenship.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^You can articulate that concept as many ways as you like. It won’t get through to them….

janbb's avatar

^^I know.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 Our borders may be under assault, but the defense of those borders will not be secured through outright lying about the reasons, nor dogging victims as criminals.

seawulf575's avatar

@janbb Keith Ellison has stated that borders create injustice. He has marched in demonstrations (as a DNC representative) in support of no borders. Obama told border patrol to not arrest or deport illegals. Many liberal cities refuse to enforce federal immigration laws. So yes, there are MANY people talking about no borders or open borders. And they aren’t on the right….they are mainly on the left. The right-wingers say this is an idiotic idea. And please don’t try the “we just want sensible immigration policies” garbage. The right wingers have screamed to enforce our laws. The left-wingers have fought tooth and nail against it. Yet when the Dems held majorities in both the House and the Senate, they did nothing. When Trump demanded that Congress create immigration reform, not a single Dem or Repub jumped on that. They ALL demured. So no…it isn’t sensible immigration that is desired. You want sensible immigration policy? How about these ideas: (1) you can only enter this country legally. Anything else is a criminal act and voids future efforts at immigration. (2) Criminals need not apply. (3) If you are here illegally, or if your family came to this country illegally, you have 30 days to turn yourself in and apply for citizenship. Anyone found in this country without having done this will be considered to be here illegally and will be deported. (4) immigrants are not eligible for any public assistance until they are naturalized. (5) All cities and states will abide by and support federal immigration laws. No exception. Violators will be treated as those abetting criminals.
Sensible enough?

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly let me ask you right out…who is assaulting our borders and our immigration policies? I have my opinions, but would LOVE to hear yours. Because I’m pretty certain it will put the rest of your statement in the trash where it belongs.

stanleybmanly's avatar

The truth is that the numbers seeking legal entry into the country simply overwhelm present provision for their processing or accommodation. The Trump solution of restricting access through labeling these people murderers and rapists fails miserably any notion of due process, and everybody knows it. Of course there will be those insisting borders unnecessary, just as there are others insisting that refugees have no rights and deserve no consideration beyond being shot on sight. Trump’s approach —rapists and murderers is patently dishonest and a shameful distortion of the truth.

stanleybmanly's avatar

We are not going to deport our way out of the refugee crisis. Obama, the supposed liberal, set records throwing people out of the country; records that still stand despite Trump attempts at all out extrajudicial persecution.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@seawulf575 . I think you’re confusing some details. Most liberals just don’t want people already here deported. Especially if they have family here. They want a vetting process too, but it has to be reasonable.
If the current system cannot handle the volume of immigration, it simply needs more funding for more employees. Take that giant tax cut to the wealthy away, and there will be plenty of money for “secure borders.” Can’t have everything you want…

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly I don’t see Trump’s solution as labeling everyone rapists and murderers. But he is for screening to keep rapists and murderers out. Why are liberals so desperate to let them in? Why is there such a fight by the left to allow people into this country however they care to enter? Why is applying the law so heinous to you? We have seen case after case after case of some illegal immigrant that has committed serious crimes being deported and let right back into this country. Sometimes the illegal is arrested by law enforcement in one of the criminal Sanctuary Cities and turned back out onto the street. And we have seen case after case after case of these people then going on to kill actual American citizens that had done absolutely nothing other than crossing the path of a criminal that shouldn’t be in the country at all. And STILL you on the left fight to allow whoever wants to come into this country in without any challenge. Why? How many innocent citizens have to be injured or killed before you think it is too many? That there is a solution for not letting illegal immigrants hurt our people?

MrGrimm888's avatar

@seawulf575 . There are ZERO verifiable statistics about how many illegal immigrants are bad, versus how many are good. Even you must surely know that the vast majority are likely good citizens.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 when will you ever learn? You enter a conversation that is so far over your head you can’t even see it and then you make a fool of yourself. You bring out a line of bullshit and expect me to buy it. So once again, I will tear your statements apart. Get ready, you’ll want to make a personal attack after this one.

Most liberals just don’t want people already here deported a partial truth. But be honest, they don’t want ANY illegal aliens deported. If they did, the idea of turning criminals back onto the street just because they are illegally in this country instead of deporting them wouldn’t be so popular with the left.
They want a vetting process too, but it has to be reasonable. Pretty much a falsehood. We have a vetting process and the left has fought against it tooth and nail. Remember the outrage over Trump’s travel ban? Part of that ban was that people should not be allowed to enter this country without proper vetting. What was it the left said? That’s RACIST. You, yourself, have spewed that same nonsense. When illegals are detained at the border, you liberals scream about racism. You scream about xenophobia. You scream about White Supremacy and Nationalism. You don’t make a single suggestion about what reasonable vetting would look like. Don’t try spouting that nonsense with me. Your actions speak far louder than your words.
If the current system cannot handle the volume of immigration, it simply needs more funding for more employees Funny…when Donald Trump told congress to come up with immigration reform and for more money to secure the border and deal with the volume, the Dems fought it all the way. They did nothing about suggesting ANY changes to current immigration laws and they fought against spending a dime on border security and immigration. They did nothing except criticize Trump for every action he took including suing to stop implementation of plans. The left has fought against anything that might actually stop the influx of illegal immigrants. Even now, they don’t want anything done about the caravan of immigrants marching to our borders. They are battling the president on any action he wants to take to stop them from just waltzing across our borders. But I guess that makes sense given your first statement. If they enter illegally, then you don’t want to deport them since they are already here.
Take that giant tax cut to the wealthy away, and there will be plenty of money for “secure borders.” Pull your head out of your ass. Look around and see that “giant tax cut for the wealthy” is actually helping everyone AND is putting more tax money into the government.

https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/trump-tax-cuts-revenues-record-high-april-paying-for-themselves/

So that giant tax cut for the wealthy is giving even more money that could go towards securing the border. What excuse do you have now? Oh wait…the left doesn’t need to actually explain any of their idiotic ideas. So let me ask…why did the left fight against securing the border before the tax reform bill? By your reasoning there was tons more money to secure the border. In reality there is more money now and you, as a fine example of the generic liberal, are trying to create a false narrative to justify further efforts to keep the border unsecure.
And finally:
There are ZERO verifiable statistics about how many illegal immigrants are bad, versus how many are good. another liberal dodge. It is true that there are zero verifiable statistics about how many illegal immigrants are bad or good. But that wasn’t the question. The question was how many Americans have to die because some illegal criminal was arrested and turned back out onto the street by a liberal city or state government? How many times do we have to watch an illegal immigrant with a past of violent arrests be deported only to allow them back into this country illegally? And when they do finally kill or injure an American citizen, why do liberals STILL fight to protect them? The easy answer to all this is stop letting illegals into this country!!! We have laws…enforce them! Why is that so hateful to the left?

MrGrimm888's avatar

^This is another strike for you being invited to Obama’s next book signing. I suggest you choose your next words more wisely…

MrGrimm888's avatar

@seawulf575 . I recommend that you look at some of @HypocrisyCentral’s old threads. Because you clearly don’t understand a “personal attack,” or how nice I actually try to be to you. I only call out your declarative statements, and alignments with the far right.

The right, these days, cannot possibly defend the fact that they are just bigots, fascists, and nationalists. That’s their party now. Some are proud of this !?!

I’m afraid that I have little to be thankful for, with a portion of my country actually supporting nationalism.
I am thankful that those of us who aren’t, being the majority.

There is hope.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 predictable to the end. What did your diatribe about the evil right have to do with ANYTHING I stated? I just tore your entire statement apart man! Guess everything I said was correct since you don’t have the wit to support your own garbage. Happy Thanksgiving.

MrGrimm888's avatar

And a Happy Thanksgiving to you sir. Enjoy eating Trump’s bullshit casserole.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 You make the assumption that I just want wide open unrestricted admission into this country, but that is NOT my position. The truth is that I view this situation to be every bit as grave as you do yourself. Our border situation is without question the great crisis of our era, and our approach to the problem speaks fundamentally to how we define ourselves as a people. My point is that if we allow a blatantly dishonest narrative to define the problem, we are lost from the outset. YOU don’t truly believe that hardened criminals define the tide at our borders.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly I do not believe that at all. But the question remains: how many criminals do we have to harm Americans before we say it is too many and that we actually need to enforce our laws? Here’s an analogy for you. Drunk drivers kill about 10,500 people each year. But there are about 37,500 vehicle deaths in that same year. So about 28% are due to drunk drivers. But cops set up sobriety check points and arrest drunk drivers in an effort to get them off the streets before they kill. If we treat drunk driving the same way we are dealing with criminals that enter our country illegally, we would not set up a single check point and if we did happen to arrest one, we would just turn them loose again. And if we take away any punishment and effort to catch the criminals, all we do is encourage people to violate the law. ALL immigrants need to enter this country legally. Period. Anything else is a sham. Want to streamline the process to allow people to become citizens? I’m all for it. But it has to include verification of who these people are, what their criminal history looks like and there has to be safety valves in the process that if an immigrant commits a crime before becoming a citizen, they are deported. Period. And here’s the kicker….with all the talk about how good all these immigrants are, those should be acceptable goals. But for some reason we are still doing battle over just enforcing our borders. Why is that? It isn’t because conservatives are pushing against enforcing the law.

janbb's avatar

How many domestic terrorists do we have to have commit mass killings before we say we have to do something about it?

seawulf575's avatar

@janbb what do you propose? I have some suggestions, but would love to hear yours. And which domestic terrorists do you plan on going after? Antifa? Occupy Wall St? Army of God? Earth Liberation Front? Please…give details. And remember, your suggestions have to deal with the problem…have to be a solution. So you will be challenged since that is what we as humans do to determine if a solution is viable or not.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^You apparently support right-wing terrorist attacks. No surprise…..

The solution? Easy. Deport all the bigots, and replace them with the asylum seeking decent people.

Don’t worry. I’m sure you will be graciously accepted in Israel. It’s a long walk. Shouldn’t be a problem for the superior race…

seawulf575's avatar

^Typical liberal. Purposely misinterpret something I wrote just so you can be nasty. I guess that’s compassion and inclusion to a warped mind, eh?

stanleybmanly's avatar

So which explanation fits the facts in evidence? Is the surge in migrants about people flocking here to pursue lives of crime, or is the “crime” about the desire to lead a better life? What results should we expect if even when adjudged “criminal” for coming, you’re better off than staying home? Is it the migrant’s fault that the tedious hopelessly broken legal process cannot possibly keep pace with the demand? If I’m safer, and better fed in a jail cell in Laredo Texas than I am in my own bed back in Honduras, what point is there to calling me a criminal for risking jail?

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly despite the effort at giving false equivalencies, there is a third option. Both. There are many that are seeking a better life. But there are also some looking to do so through crime. It is documented that there are murders and rapists in the “caravan”. So the challenge still remains: How many Americans have to be victims of illegal criminal immigrants before the left acknowledges it is a problem? As for wanting a better life, there are channels. Let’s take your example…deciding living in jail in Laredo or back in your own bed in Honduras. Let’s make that person suddenly a parent with children. Why would they risk jail? Why not actually make the effort to enter legally? You enter with your children and you start the process for citizenship. Your analogy falls apart when it suddenly becomes a family. Getting three hots and a cot in jail isn’t going to help your family. And isn’t that the liberal argument? That all these immigrants are helpless families? That they are harmless and only want a better life?

flutherother's avatar

Looking at it objectively, if that is possible these days, the threat Russia poses to the United States and to the Western World and its values is immeasurably greater than that posed by a handful of homeless men, women and children.

stanleybmanly's avatar

But this is beyond a “handful of helpless men, women and children.” And if nothing else, we here should try to get a handle on agreeing as to just what the situation is GENUINELY about. Is the Trump explanation legitimate; that careers in rape and murder motivate mass immigration? @seawulf575. Or isn’t the exodus all the proof sensible people should require to understand that “3 hots and a cot” in a Texas jail are preferable to the life back home?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@stanley The two dont exclude each other. Probably some punks in there, probably some nice people needing help. We all understand that, I’d hope. I would think some of you would be stating facts on how we can all help.

janbb's avatar

@KNOWITALL I’m helping by supporting a local immigrants rights group with fundraising and PR help.

mazingerz88's avatar

trump can help by cutting a deal with Democrats about immigration reform and following through.

seawulf575's avatar

@flutherother you must have awfully big hands. There are about 20 million illegal aliens in this country and it is a good bet that about 20% at least had criminal pasts. That’s 4 million. That’s a lot. And if you figure that half of those go on to commit more crime, that’s at least 2 million victims. FAR more than and fearful projection of what Russia might do.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly again….both. Yes, rape and murder are motivations for illegal immigration. But not the only one. You keep wanting to give false equivalencies. And I didn’t know that was Trump’s explanation. That is the left’s interpretation of Trumps motives. And you still haven’t explained how families see living in a jail cell in Laredo preferential to being with their family. But again…even that is a false equivalency. How many illegal aliens, if caught, actually spend jail time for the crime of entering this country illegally? Pretty much zero. Are you starting to see the fantasy you are laboring under?

seawulf575's avatar

@mazingerz88 um….that would require the Dems to actually have a proposal. This is political dynamite. Trump has made an offer….come up with immigration reform. His stipulation was that border security needed to be a part of any suggestion. So far the Dems have offered exactly nothing.

stanleybmanly's avatar

I don’t know what you mean by false equivalencies. The very fact that crowds show up should be obvious proof that the risks of jail and abuse here are preferable to life back home.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly I would suggest looking up False Equivalence. Maybe a better term would be False Delimma which is an informal fallacy. Very similar. Again…your statement is misleading. It assumes there are only two options when in fact there are more. Your statement would be that people are only leaving their homes because of abuse back there. That is a false conclusion. They could be doing that, but they could be criminals. They could be trying to set up drug smuggling paths. They could be paid agitators. There are many, many reasons that someone might try entering our country illegally. But your statements assume none of those and give the impression it is an either/or choice when it isn’t. Crowds showing up doesn’t mean the people in them are all there for one reason.
Another thought for your consideration: Asylum. Do you understand the international rules for asylum? If a person is living in Honduras and they are persecuted for religious beliefs (for example) and they want to flee because they have a credible fear for their life, they can seek asylum. But by the international rules, as soon as you enter a country where that credible fear no longer exists, THAT is where you need to ask for asylum. So this person leaving Honduras has three options. North, South, or West. North they will hit Guatamala where their persecution will no longer exist. West they hit El Salvador where their persecution may still exist. South they hit Panama where their persecution no longer exists. If they are truly seeking asylum, the USA is not on the chart for them. If they continue north or south through Guatamala or Panama, they hit Mexico or Costa Rica…both of which would be safe for them. So this crying jag that they are seeking safety is, in itself, a false assumption. It is illogical. And to suggest they would consider jail in the US to be safety is a complete lie. They have bypassed many, many opportunities for asylum. In fact the US is about as far a march as they could go. I guess we could bus them to Canada….

stanleybmanly's avatar

No matter. We agree they are coming here because they prefer coming here to other options, including the option of starving at home. Paid agitators is about as ludicrous an example of reality as Trump’s imagination might invent. Even including the minuscule numbers seeking criminal livelihoods, the migrants assaulting our borders are coming for EXACTLY the same reasons as your ancestors and mine.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly first off, you reject paid agitators as being ludicrous but then I find:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6293893/Leading-supporter-giant-caravan-Honduran-migrants-headed-border-arrested.html

When you have activists organizing the march, I certainly don’t discount paid agitators.

And the reasons they are leaving their home play into EVERYTHING. If they are fearing for their lives and fleeing, that is an asylum situation. I already described how that works. If they are leaving for a chance at a better life, that is immigration and there are rules on how to do that. Marching across several countries to storm the borders here is not one of those rules. There is nothing legal about this caravan. Would it be okay with you if I walked into your house and demanded I get to stay and then demand that you feed and clothe me as well? After all, it’s what I want to make my life better. Isn’t that all that is important?

stanleybmanly's avatar

Here is where you are missing the distinction. The issue isn’t about the legality of mass migration. Like the fool you defend, you miss the point that there is nothing inherently illegal in the process of migration—NOTHING over which we have ANY legal control or jurisdiction. YOU should could consider that it isn’t the trip to “my house” that should concern me. But it might serve my interests to HONESTLY assess the motives of those desperate enough to make the trip.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly again, you are partially right. Do you ever get tired of being partially right? Or do you purposely inject just a little honesty to try making your arguments sound legit? There is indeed nothing inherently illegal in the process of immigration. There is all sorts of things inherently illegal in the process of migration. Depending on where you migrate you could indeed violate quite a number of laws making it fully illegal. Don’t believe me?? Okay…go migrate across China without any paperwork….just walk on in and set a spell. Tell them how you want them to help make it right for you.
There are rules for immigration and this caravan is following none of them. Zero. Zip. What you are doing is defending the idea of open borders and you aren’t doing it well. You are cross-pollinating answers. If they are merely immigrating here, then walking up and into the country is not the proper way and is in violation of our laws. If they are in mortal danger in their home country and have to flee, then they are seeking asylum and they need to ask for that at the first place they can which in 99% of the cases not the USA. So marching on the border is to ask for asylum is, again, not the right thing. The MOTIVES of these people is exactly what I am assessing. And your arguments for them fall apart all the way. I fully believe immigration can be a good thing. But immigration isn’t just about the immigrant. It is about the country as well. And to be a good citizen you don’t start trying for that by breaking the laws. You don’t walk into a country and start demanding legitimacy.

stanleybmanly's avatar

STOP! Forget about China or theoretical migratory scenarios and stick to the situation at hand. There is NOTHING illegal about mass MIGRATION. There are there are no regulations when it comes to up and leaving. I am not defending any principle of open borders. I am instead pointing out a reality you and our idiot President somehow miss. If It isn’t criminal to leave home, and tens of thousands choose to do so, where’s the crime? It is with IMMIGRATION that the legal niceties and restrictions are encountered.

seawulf575's avatar

Exactly what I just said. But your logic is leaking. There is absolutely nothing wrong with leaving your home to go elsewhere. The problems come with where you decide to go. If you move to the next town or across the country, you are fine. When you decide to cross international borders you have indeed then committed a crime in every country in the world. At that point you stop being a migrant and become an Immigrant. And when you decide to do that, you have to follow the rules of the country you are attempting to enter. Anything else is a criminal act. Even claiming asylum has rules. And the caravans leaving Central America to come to the USA are doing so illegally. They are not following the rules of immigration and they are violating the rules of asylum. They are an illegal operation that really has earned no rights at all.

mazingerz88's avatar

@seawulf575 So easy for you isn’t it? Not feeling anything nor being capable of imagining what desperates things you might be capable of doing if you yourself is on that other side of the border.

seawulf575's avatar

@mazingerz88 here’s the difference, I guess. I have dealt with severe adversity in my life. How did I get through it? By using my head and considering the course of action that would have the best chance of success. What you are seeing now is 30 years of no immigration enforcement, or at least very little. You are seeing liberals everywhere screaming to let in anyone that wants to come into our country with no consideration for the rules. Imagine for a moment that if we actually started enforcing our immigration laws? It would no longer look like the path with the best chance of success and these people would stop coming. If they wanted to come, they would apply for an immigration visa like they are supposed to. Then we could actually screen the applications and keep most of the criminals out. If I were in a situation where I felt I desperately needed to move somewhere else, I would put all my efforts into doing just that…legally…so it would stick.
But let’s take your bleeding heart attack on me and go a different way with it. Why, if things are THAT desperate in their home countries, aren’t they going somewhere a lot closer? Think about it. If they are coming from Honduras, they have to go through Guatamala and Mexico just to get to our borders. It would be quicker to stop in Mexico or Guatamala. It would be easier to go to Panama or Costa Rica. Their lives would be safer and these countries would probably give them immigrant status. So the “desperate things” are nothing more than self-imposed heart aches. And how does dragging your kids 1600+ miles on a journey that is known to end in murder, rape, and child trafficking better than say…a 200 mile trip?
I think the problem here is that it is so easy for you…to not actually think for yourself.

mazingerz88's avatar

@seawulf575 Why not just say what you think are the exact reasons why these people want to come here instead of questioning why they drag their kids all the way here and not to that next country after theirs? It’s just seems like a total waste of your time typing the question.

You dealt with severe adversity in your life and takes pride in surmounting them. Your heart was so tough it didn’t even bleed. Good for you. Which makes me wonder does that mean this movement, this mass of people bringing their kids here is too much of an adversity for you to get a grip with? You come across as so threatened and so fearful.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^They are VERY threatened, and fearful. Most won’t admit why. Their culture is dying, as is the way of things. They are desperately clinging to a “Brady Bunch” lifestyle, which only exists in romantic, cherry picked memories, that really never existed.
They are terrified of being outnumbered, and therefore out of power. They feel that their race, and religion (white/Christian) is the best, and they are afraid of seeing new races, and ethnic groups getting more power in our democracy. Much like why Israel will never accept a one state solution, as they would lose power. Power to help themselves, and hurt others. It’s pathetic, and disgraceful…

seawulf575's avatar

Yes, @MrGrimm888 assign your views of others to help your weak opinions. Here’s a thought…I don’t like illegal immigrants because they are breaking the law. Why is it that you on the left just can’t accept that answer? It really is no deeper than that. Let’s look at it this way. I you were going to start a relationship with someone and that someone starts by cheating on you. Are you obliged to continue that relationship? No. And that’s what these people are doing. They are ignoring our laws, yet demanding we take care of them. Sorry…I just can’t get there from here. Follow the laws to move to our country.
@mazingerz88 and @MrGrimm888 let me ask…why is it so wrong to enforce our laws? Why are you so threatened and fearful of enforcing the laws?

mazingerz88's avatar

@seawulf575!Because Republican politicians had always used that bullshit “enforce our laws” and “protect the border first” argument for so many years now to get votes and keep immigration reform from happening.

2016 there was a meeting about immigration trump agreed to have but his evil minion miller and I guess Satan himself were there to convince him otherwise.

Why don’t you tell your orange clown to call a televised debate on immigration so they who actually make the laws sort this out and fix it finally?

Instead of brainwashing zombie voters to gurgle the bullshit “enfarssk d laao” “pratek dah borrddrrr frsst” argument.

Effective to get votes and elect a subhuman to the WH but nah, your whole political maneuver to get to power stinks so my hope is your subhuman is forced to make deals or he gets replaced by another who is a decent fellow or lady.

seawulf575's avatar

Yes, @mazingerz88 it’s satan out to get you. Funny thing…you never did explain what is so fearful and threatening about enforcing our laws. All you did is explain you are terrified of satan. And you are terrified. Why does it scare you so much? Why does enforcing the law make you quake in your Dr. Dentons?

mazingerz88's avatar

^^Just keep voting for Satan. He takes pride in that “enforce the law” rebuttal. Sneaky bastard.

seawulf575's avatar

Huh. And still you can’t answer why enforcing the law is so horrible. Amazing. Why is it that enforcing the law seems to be onerous to the left? Maybe that is the real question we need to resolve before there can be meaningful conversation on pretty much any topic.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@seawulf575 . You’re really quite ridiculous. You should have the courage to own your bigotry.

You cry about law enforcement, when it suits you. Ever gone 46 mph, in a 45 mph zone? Ever earn a penny, without reporting it to the IRS? Ever roll through a stop sign, or fail to signal? Ever keep a fish 1cm too small? If so, then by your own logic you are a criminal and perhaps shouldn’t be allowed to be here.

Man up. If you want others to judge people by laws broken, you should turn yourself in to the authorities. Otherwise, you are just a hypocrite.

Stop fooling yourself. You definitely haven’t fooled anyone here. You only care about laws, or even the teachings of your own religion, when it is convenient for you…

flutherother's avatar

Trump isn’t an enemy of the people rather, despite the image he likes to portray, he is a friend of business and big billion dollar business at that. That is the world Trump comes from, inhabits and now represents in the White House. In Trump’s eyes the people are dupes, fit only to be sold fake university diplomas.

JLeslie's avatar

I’m so sick to death of portraying coming to America without papers as “breaking the law” as though it’s equivalent to robbing and raping.

Good, decent, hard working people in bad situations come to America for a better life. Those people should not be labeled as “criminals”. Criminal is a horrible word that conjures up visions of people who are dangerous and unethical. Are they coming in without papers? Yes. Are they doing something against our laws? Yes. But they are not bad people, stop portraying them that way.

Are some bad? For sure! MS13 is a menace on our society, there are some people without papers running drugs and others who have committed heinous crimes, but as a group immigrants want to work and take care of themselves and their families.

Gawd, it’s so annoying that there are people who characterize all illegal immigrants as bad people and then on the other side people saying everyone who crosses the border is an angel.

The US will never fix the immigration problem with the majority of people not really looking at the truth and not trying to figure out a better policy.

It breaks my heart that my country, my America, a country created for immigrants seeking freedom, safety, opportunity, and equality, might be turned into something totally different because of fear and hate!

You do realize that the guy coming across without papers might easily come through again with papers. He’s the same guy!

Plus, plenty of people are in the US legally, but working illegally. What about them?

If you want people to go through a legal process, make the process more realistic and pay up the money to administer it.

The enemy of country is forgetting what makes America what it is. Why it is.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie The guy with papers has been verified as to why he is here, and passes a background check. That is everything. It protects people already here against criminals, as well as protecting the immigrant.

And by definition (here we go again) a criminal is someone who breaks the law. Other countries also require documentation, if you don’t believe me, try to walk across Egypt and Iran’s borders.

I don’t know one single Rep that hates immigrants, the sooner you rid yourself of that delusion, the sooner we can all get back to fixing the issue that Obama promised to fix and never did.
(https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/why-didnt-obama-pass-immigration-reform-when-he-had-the-chance)

@MrGrimm888 Comparing a speeding ticket to illegally crossing a border is nonsense. If it becomes a felony, those immigrants who try it illegally will be denied a green card.

“A felony record would hinder an individual attempting to come into the U.S. legally as it would prevent that person from obtaining a green card, Black told Fox News.”
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/illegal-border-crossing-would-become-felony-offense-under-proposed-gop-bill

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I often think @MrGrimm888 is too extreme on this topic, but he is dead on with his example of people hiding income and other breeches in the law. I bet you know a lot of people who have “hidden” money from the IRS, a federal offense. Most states I think more or less stealing over $1,000 is a felony (I’m not sure of the threshold). If your favorite business man stuffed $10k in his pocket from cash sales out of the $200k he brought in, he probably is stealing around $1,000 in taxes from the government, which is stealing from the American people. Very nice, 6th generation, family men do things like that, or use the tax law to the hilt, pushing what can be deducted because they are self employed.

Crossing border illegally is a misdemeanor! Not a felony. Unless the GOP changed it, which I know they have been trying to do, I don’t know what happened.

I am not talking about the strict definition of criminal, I am talking about how that word is used and perceived. I use the word criminal for many things, but not for this. God forbid one day you are the one who needs to go to another country, do you want to be treated as a “criminal” for pleading for merci and safe having? WTH?! I’m not saying we should take in everyone who wants to come here, I am talking about how we characterize groups of people.

Previously, we used some slurs like WOP and others, which wasn’t nice, but criminal is just beyond the pale to me.

WHY? WHY do you, and other people find it necessary to use the word criminal rather than saying asylum seekers, or without papers, or no working visa, or whatever is the truth, but not so flipping negative? Grouping them in with thieves and killers.

A young adult can go to Vanderbilt university on a student visa, graduate, and then overstay his visa and you are going to call him a “criminal.” How about he just “broke an immigration law,” or was “non compliment” instead? I’m fine with pursuing the Vanderbilt grad to get him out of the country if he didn’t follow the law, but I’m not going to put him in the same category as the guy who killed the woman in San Francisco, and it’s not because it’s Vanderbilt or any other particular school, that’s just an example. I would hope there is a path for the grad to stay legally, but if he screwed it up and was non compliant, then I also think he might have screwed up his chances. That’s how it has always been. Taking those risks can get you deported for ten years or more.

Go ahead close the border, kick out the immigrants. It is the South that will probably suffer the most, I realize you are not in South. Maybe if we crack down hard we will finally get the laws and the realistic view we need. The country can suffer to bring on reasonable application of the laws. Just sucks that people have to get hurt in the meantime.

Both sides on this issue are unreasonable right now in my opinion.

JLeslie's avatar

Thank God my grandfather was allowed through Ellis Island. I swear I actually tear up when I think about it. I’m not religious, but if there is a God maybe this one time He took pity on my Jewish, teenage, slightly hard of hearing grandfather and let him leave the orphanage in the antisemitic country he was living in, from an extremely poor family who could not feed him and all of his siblings, not speaking any English when he sailed in the Olympic from Southampton to our shores. Dear God, do the people so adamant against immigrants even know the stories of their ancestors coming here? I have to wonder.

Sorry for the rant. I’m done now.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie Obviously you are emotional about this topic, and I understand from past threads why you are, so I’m trying to be very circumspect in my language.

“Are some bad? For sure! MS13 is a menace on our society, there are some people without papers running drugs and others who have committed heinous crimes, but as a group immigrants want to work and take care of themselves and their families.”

So you are allowed to say it but I’m not? You just didn’t use the word criminal, even though you admit some are a menace, running drugs and committing heinous crimes. Some even traffic adults and children. Some abandon people in deserts and whole truckloads of immigrants die horrible deaths. Some are raped, some are killed. You are right, we can’t demonize all of a group, nor can we give a whole group free passes hoping they aren’t going to commit heinous crimes, because they SAY they were mistreated in their own country.

Try to think of it this way, if you are able. Let’s say your grandfather went through all that, the proper process via Ellis Island, then was here living in relative peace and healing, when he is killed by an illegal immigrant who was not processed. Did your grandfather not deserve the same safety that your children and grandchildren deserve after all he’d been through? I can tell you one thing, my Vietnamese friends got ran out of their own country, barely made it out alive, had to wait over three years in Rome, to come here legally. I personally think they have been through quite enough, leaving everything behind, including family, and they deserve the safety and peace they have found here.

I do know how part of my family came. The Irish side came through Ellis Island just like your grandfather, the other half is native American. My Irish grandfather went overseas to help liberate concentration camps.

To finish up, I would like you to know that every single immigrant that is here legally that I have discussed this with, agree it should be done legally, just like they did. No half hearted answers, they vehemently believe our borders should be secure.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie and I am sick to death of people acting like entering this country illegally is a no-nevermind. It is a crime. It’s not on the level of murder or rape, but it is in violation of our laws, so that makes it, by definition, a crime. Why is that so hard to admit?
The people that enter this country illegally do so knowingly and with forethought. They didn’t go out for a stroll and accidentally walk into our country. I could forgive them for that and tell them to go back. They are willfully violating our laws. There are rules for immigration. My contention is that groups like this caravan are purposely working to undermine those rules. They want to force their way into our nation and demand rights. Oddly, we are the ONLY nation on earth where people like that are coddled. Even our neighbors to the north are stricter about illegal immigration than we are.
Are there good people trying for a better life? Probably. Should they be allowed to violate the law to do it? Nope. Let them follow the rules of immigration and you won’t hear another peep from me.

seawulf575's avatar

And on a side note, your grandfather came through Ellis Island…LEGALLY. He followed the established rules of the time and was properly screened. That’s how it worked back then. Why should it be so different today?

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL We agree only to a certain extent. Exactly right that my big upset is calling all illegal immigrants criminals. I feel like Trump supporters are not differentiating between illegal immigrants who are commuting felony acts while in our country, and people who came here who simply want to live in a country of freedom, equality, safety, and opportunity. That’s my big problem with the language being used. I’m not so far left that I think we don’t need to process immigrants as they enter. My parents live in an area where MS13 is a serious problem. It’s not funny, I take it seriously.

I think people would be shocked to know how many people they know who were illegal, or at minimum a friend of a friend or relative.

I just want to say you don’t have to be so concerned about walking on egg shells. I know you a long time now, and I always appreciate your honesty and willingness to discuss difficult topics.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 Once again, there is NO crime in coming here. No matter the size of the caravan or the determination of those comprising it, not a single soul is guilty of anything. The bulk of those involved have openly declared their intention to seek asylum upon arrival, in the face of an idiot who has sworn to do his utmost to deprive them of the opportunity. By declaring the caravan illegal, Trump purports that the attempt to seek asylum is all by itself somehow illegal and then proceeds to make the process as arduous and harrowing as possible. The pretense of welcoming “legal” immigrants is trumpeted while the definition of legal is shifted to assure that as a few as possible will qualify. It’s a cheap and transparent shell game worthy of the gangster pushing it that fools nobody but those as clueless as himself.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly and once again, you are spouting liberal foolishness. There is indeed no crime in coming here. Why? Because they abided by the rules of entry for the countries they passed through. Funny how they don’t mind getting permission to enter those countries but want to walk right in when they get here.
As for them coming here to seek asylum, once again you are ignoring all sorts of rules to try making this caravan sound legit. If they were truly in fear of their lives in their own country (one of the criteria for asylum) then they need to present themselves to the first country they come to where that fear no longer exists. And it isn’t a fear of not having a good life. It is a fear of persecution or violence. Even per the UN’s Refugee convention of 1951 (later modified in 1969) this is true. The revision allows for countries to ask for assistance with refugees due to the sheer number they may get. But that again is a legal status…you fear for your life, you present yourself to the nearest safe country for asylum. If they can reasonably take you they do. If they can’t they then ask for other countries to help. These are legal processes. None of these have been done.
Trump does not say asylum is illegal…it isn’t. But gaming the system? Yeah…that’s pretty sketchy. And that is what these invaders are doing. They were just going to march right in…until they were told they were expected and would not be allowed to flaunt our laws. So they decide they want to apply for asylum to gain entry. Again…if they legitimately fear for their lives from some persecution, they already missed asking for asylum along the way. They were even offered asylum in Mexico and they turned it down. So their case for asylum gets extremely weak. Are you fearing for your life or aren’t you? Obviously they aren’t. And roughly only 10% of these people have actually approached the US and asked for asylum now that they are in Tijuana. So if they are truly seeking asylum, why not ask for it?
As for the process being arduous and harrowing, that isn’t Trump either. He is just enforcing the law. The law requires first a request for asylum followed by the written application that can then be reviewed and ruled upon. Don’t like the process? Then I suggest you start harassing your elected representatives in Congress to revise it. Despite what Obama believed and acted upon, the POTUS does not get to rewrite laws at will. And Trump has asked Congress to take up this issue….and they have refused. Obviously your elected officials don’t feel anything is wrong.
Sorry hoss, the facts don’t support your argument at all. We have been over this before and you have not addressed any of the pertinent facts. You are like a record stuck on a scratch…“there’s nothing wrong with migration….there’s nothing wrong with migration….there’‘s…”

MrGrimm888's avatar

^“the POTUS does not get to rewrite laws at will.”...
More hypocrisy…...

Oh. There’s nothing wrong with migration….

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 Do you have a link supporting they were offered asylum in Mexico?

Trump is not simply enforcing the law. He did nothing to make this easier on the immigrants in the caravan or on the American country or American people. He didn’t send more immigration employees to help process these people, he sent armed forces! It served him to do this display to gain more loyalty by people like you. He could have done this in a much more reasonable manner, but it would not have gotten him the press coverage and the loyalty he looks for. He really is genius at this stuff.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie why is it that you on the left cannot actually do a search on your own? It dazzles me every time. I search on “Caravan Offered Asylum in Mexico” and viola! a whole litany of links. Here are a few:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/caravan-mexico-offer/

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-caravan-idUSKCN1N10Q8

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/27/mexico-offers-temporary-permits-to-caravan-migrants-seeking-asylum

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/migrant-caravan-members-reject-offer-stay-mexico-n925171

Now that you have these links and you can see that everything I have stated is true, will it affect your views at all? Probably not.
As for Trump not doing enough…why should he? That is what I don’t understand. This behavior by the caravan is abominable. They are attempting to force entry into our country, in total disregard for our immigration laws. And your stance seems to be that we should bend over backwards to accommodate them. Why? If they can’t follow our laws, why should be do anything for them? They aren’t seeking asylum…they were offered that and declined. They aren’t immigrating legally. They are attempting to force their way in. If we help that effort, it won’t stop. We will end up with three or four caravans a year. Face it…they came here with the idea that we have no option except to let them in and make things right for them. What Trump did was to say “no”. He said it with words and with actions. And I feel that was 100% correct. So back to the real question: Why is enforcing our laws so bad?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@seawulf575 If I’m reading the posts correctly, from Grim and JLeslie, etc…is that most of these people are in desperate need of help, so rather than them following the rules/ law, we should bend over backwards to help. It’s our American and Christian duty. And also the US caused many of these issues in those particular countries, as well.

Like I said earlier, what’s interesting is that I know several legal immigrants, none of which, that’s right NONE=ZERO think the caravan, rocks, violence, etc….is okay. This is their legal country, too, so they have as much say as you or I.

MrGrimm888's avatar

“Bending over backwards.” You mean like sending thousands of our troops there, even though they have no power to do anything? Thousands of our troops will indeed be bending over backwards, as they miss their families during the holidays. All they can legally do, is put more barbed wire fences up, and stand around.

Spending billions on a fence, that will have NO impact on the problem. That’s some bending.

I have a news flash for those concerned about border security. The ice in the Arctic Circle, is melting. The Russians, and Chinese, are already ahead of the US with technology to move around the region. America has like 1 ice-breaker ship. There speculation that there are vast underwater resources there. Oil. Gas.

In the near future, Russia, and China, will likely lay claim to the area. Just like the SCS. The area is of course already claimed by the US, and Canada. This is/should be of FAR more concern, than refugees at a decreasing level on our southern borders.

Yet. I hear nothing from the right about this very real threat… Why is that?.. It’s a shame that the right is so worried about more brown people, when there are real/valid threats to our nation…

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 Why are you being obnoxious to me? I am one of the more moderate people on this thread. I asked you for a link because it’s customary on flutter for the person making the assertion to provide the link. I wasn’t calling you a liar or anything, is that what you thought? That’s you projecting.

Gawd, you think you are so awesome and perfect. Good luck with that. I do give a shit if other countries offered asylum, that’s why I asked. Stop making wrong assumptions about me just because you painted me blue. Why not actually READ what I have written. Everything, don’t just cherry pick the stuff you want to see. I’m not ok with everyone just pouring in to our country. Give me a break.

@KNOWITALL My husband came in legally, and it’s true that people who come in legally sometimes resent people who just walk in our country, but my experience is what annoys them most is when Cubans used to be able to walk in legally! That was what was talked about more than people who came in illegally or overstayed their visa. The people here illegally don’t get the same opportunity as people here legally, it’s not equal, it’s not really something to envy.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie Exactly my point, its not ideal for them or us. We need a solution, and I truly believe thats what we all want, regardless of divisive assumptions.
@Seawulf and I have been saying that the whole time.

I have known legals and illegals, as people it doesnt matter. As a taxpayer, it irks me. When I see a crew of 25 in one motel room, sleeping in shifts and getting paid crap wages, it irks me. Their boss, the legal, gets the profit. It happens here a lot. They live on the same food day in and day out, sending money home. The whole situation is untenable.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL In this last statement you said it irks you when illegal immigrants get paid low wages and live in less desirable conditions, so I guess that means you don’t like to see people treated unfairly or badly, but throughout this thread, and in most of these discussions on immigration, I really don’t see republicans saying much of anything showing any sympathy for the immigrants.

Focusing on the caravan is now a distraction; another brilliance of Trump, instead of talking about the greater, ongoing, immigration situation.

I see a lot of US centric thinking. I see little to know ability for republicans to put themselves in the SHOES OF THE IMMIGRANTS. I am not saying all immigrants are in desperate situations in their country, but almost all are looking for a better life, or a different life, and not a free ride. You said it yourself, you see them working hard, paid very little, and living in bad conditions.

Back to being in their shoes, my experience living in parts of the country that were heavily white and Christian 4th generation and more American is they often had a void when it came to empathizing with minority groups. I am not talking about sympathy, I am not saying they were racist, I’m saying, they just were not able to imagine what it’s like to be them. Political discussions would go like this:

Them: we should have prayer in school.

Me: what if you live in an area 75% Muslim, and over 50% of the teachers in schools are Muslim, would you still want prayer in school?

Them: I wouldn’t live in a place that was 75% Muslim.

They just don’t get that allowing religion in schools and government runs the risk that one day when they (Christians) are not the majority, that it might be another religion putting their doctrine into places of power and influence. They don’t answer my question—they just don’t answer it. They are so surrounded by Christianity in their communities, and worrying about Merry Christmas, that they have no ability to imagine heavy diversity. I obviously am not talking about Christians who live in very diverse places. I’m not talking about Christians in general, I’m talking about a very specific group with a narrow view and narrow experience.

Here’s another:

Them: If gay people are allowed in the military then gay men will be making passes at the straight men, and sleeping in the same quarters will put straight men at risk of being sexually attacked.

Me: if I had to work with men, and even sleep in the same bunk at times, I would hope they don’t make passes at me and attack me, and I’m talking a boy girl situation, why the f**k do you think gay men are unable to act appropriately?

Of course, now we have gay men and women openly in the military and the sky did not fall.

Or, how many stories do you know of parents being anti-gay and then their kid is gay and suddenly they have an epiphany. They can’t have empathy until it’s visited in their own house. I’m so sick of that.

I won’t list a bunch of other examples, too long.

Anyway, my whole upset when I started my rant is the word criminal. That word is still my main upset, not the discussion of how we should handle immigration, not for this thread anyway. Stop turning people into villains with no heart. That’s what the word criminal is associated with sociopaths out for greed and to harm others. It’s not simply a connotation of breaking the law. Think of the times you have broken the law, do you refer to it as “I was a criminal” or “I know it was breaking the law technically, but…”

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie I see a few things that are sort of at the root of why you and I or you and @KNOWITALL disagree. Let me highlight a couple of statements you just made
“Focusing on the caravan is now a distraction; another brilliance of Trump, instead of talking about the greater, ongoing, immigration situation.” I see several issues here. The first is that you somehow see talking about an immigration issue is a distraction from immigration issues. Another difference is that I don’t see fixing our immigration issues to be part of the president’s job description. That falls squarely on the stooped shoulders of Congress. They are the ones responsible for making and amending the laws. The POTUS only agrees or disagrees. Trump has asked and even tried to force congress to address this issue and they have flatly refused. Both Dems and Repubs. No one wants to address it because it is such a hot topic they are afraid no matter what they propose they will be committing political suicide. My view is that’s just too bad…they are elected to make tough decisions and take action on those decisions. By blaming Trump, you are distracting from the actual culprits.

“I see a lot of US centric thinking. I see little to know ability for republicans to put themselves in the SHOES OF THE IMMIGRANTS.” That is a big difference between us. I don’t see the job of Dems or Repubs to put themselves in the shoes of the immigrants. They are elected and paid to put themselves in the shoes of Americans and make decisions based on what is best for Americans.

The last is your discussion about criminal being used to describe the illegal immigrants. Let’s cut to the facts on this one. They are. Forget all the connotations you have and the associations you have. The definition of a crime is an illegal act for which someone can be punished by the government . The definition of criminal is guilty of crime. If you get a speeding ticket, you are a criminal whether you want to see yourself that way or not. And the people in this caravan are willfully attempting to commit an act which can be punished by the law…they are attempting to enter the country against the laws of immigration. That was their goal. They wanted to come to our country (which is fine), but they didn’t want to follow the rules on doing that (which is the criminal act). They wanted to walk in and basically dared us to stop them. The people in this caravan, and all immigrants for that matter…legal and illegal…are looking to come to this country for some reason. Some for a chance at a better life and others for some nefarious reasons. But we have rules about how to enter this country. Again…why is it so wrong to enforce the laws of our country? I have yet to get an answer to this question. If the answer is that you don’t agree with the laws of the country then you need to be addressing Congress, not Trump. If it is only that Trump is taking action on something, then that is your own hang-up…you are wrapped around the axle on that one. You are basically saying you dislike him so much that you are in support of violating our federal laws instead of missing a chance to slam Trump.
As for why I am so obnoxious to you, it really isn’t you, per se. It is pretty much every liberal on these pages. You all make outlandish statements and never once give a citation to back your statements. So it isn’t customary for that. And if you care to go back and look I give probably more citations than most. And you know what response I get for my troubles? I get one of a couple responses…either the topic suddenly shifts to my choice of source, the person never actually addresses the issue after that, or, as you just did, I get a personal attack instead of discussion about the citations. You asked for citations, I gave them. Have you addressed them? You asked for them. Guess not. And what I find really sad about the whole thing is that if someone makes a statement I disagree with or that I question, I don’t ask them to produce sources, I go and do some research to see if it is factual or not. If it is not, I then come back to the conversation with citations to say this is why I disagree. So yes, I get annoyed and frustrated when someone asks me for citations on one of my statements. Would you, perhaps, like it better and find it less obnoxious if I asked for citations every time someone makes a statement? I can do that if you like, but I consider it obnoxious when others do it to me so I don’t.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 Sourcing is part of what makes fluther great. I have over 50,000 points, I have been here way way longer than you, if you want to try to change fluther go ahead, but customarily the person making a statement is asked to provide their source. Not that other people can’t also google and do their own research, of course they can and should. Asking for a source is asking for information, not necessarily an affront. It matters to me that these people were offered asylum in other countries, now I’ve said it again. I wonder if you can pause and take that in.

I have never said I dislike Trump so much, blah blah blah…

I have republicans all over me for when I defend Trump. You’re simply wrong. You’re dumping me in with other liberals. I’m the Democrat who says I don’t like when Democrats call republicans names, I’m the one who called Democrat’s for being hypocrites for harping on Trumps affairs, I’m the one who has said previously I don’t believe Trump is racist (although I’m not so sure now) I’m the one who when people say Ivanka isn’t Jewish, I say yes she is, I’m the one who says I know my friends who support Trump are not racist, I’m the one annoyed with how the left leaning media has gone too far, I’m the one.

I’m talking about you, not politicians now, I’m talking about how we, as a people, refer to other people, and how we view other people. “The republicans” have turned Latin Americans into “invaders” and invaders is another word where the connotation is they are trying to take over and change our country. They want to come to AMERICA. They don’t want to create another Nicaragua. Don’t you get that?

Immigration is not just a caravan of people, it’s also people with lots of money wanting to come here, educated, not educated, farmers, doctors, people leaving war torn countries, women who have little to no rights in their country, people who are starving, teens who spent the summer and want to stay, 22 year olds who went to college here and get a job, it’s very varied.

America is special because of immigration. It is what created this country. We have to have laws to control immigration, but I think our basic feelings towards immigration should be wanting to help. We can’t help everyone, but I’m just talking about a basic attitude.

I invite you to read the details of my recent Q https://i.fluther.com/211295/whats-your-most-recent-shake-your-head-from-side-to-side/

stanleybmanly's avatar

Our immigrant dilemma is not going to be resolved through any debate over the legality of the participants. The position of the wulf is that to be here without documentation is illegal. It therefore follows that the problem is simply a matter of either the inability or refusal to enforce the law. End of story. The wulf is correct of course in his simplistic analysis, but as matters clearly indicate, the explanation contributes nothing toward a solution, because it ignores completely the factor of causation. What the Wulf says here and Trump tells the world is that “THEY COME HERE BECAUSE WE JUST AREN’T MEAN ENOUGH”, and are unwilling to kidnap their children nor execute them on sight. If either the wulf or the fool were thinking men, they would arrive at the inevitable conclusion that this is the only way out for their line of thought (not that it might matter to any sociopath as defective as Trump. The threat of mass incarceration hasn’t done the trick, and the numbers would probably bankrupt us if we tried.

If there is an lesson at all from our border troubles it is that there really is no hope of stemming the tide through simply labeling people criminal and depraved for fleeing hell. Wulf has a bad habit of assigning hypocrisy to any view counter to his own. Meanwhile the fool blusters on against the defenseless.
caravan: we’re coming
trump: I’m going to be extra
mean and mistreat the
shit out of you.
caravan: we’re coming anyway

The wulf and Trump are right. We’re a place reputed to have a soft spot for the suffering and persecuted. Better than that, we have laws in place looking out for such folks regardless of the occasional idiot at the helm. So @seawulf575, why not dispense with the argument on legality and stretch your thinking toward the implications of your position. If you are going to define the problem with complete disregard (or falsification) of the motivations, the question boils down to JUST HOW CRUEL AND HEARTLESS CAN WE BE AND STILL BE CALLED AMERICA?

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie I agree that immigration can help us. I think in today’s world it is necessary. What I HAVE stated and what I truly believe is that (a) entering our country knowing you are doing so against the law is just wrong. I am not alone in this thought and most other countries enforce their immigration laws far more stringently than we do. and (b) the solution of this problem lies not with Trump or Obama before him or Bush II or Clinton or Bush I or Reagan. The solution lies with Congress. Our immigration system needs to be cleaned up…absolutely. But it has to be followed. If we want to clean it up, that HAS to come from Congress. Anything else is unconstitutional. We, the people of this nation, need to hold our elected officials accountable and make this a priority for the country. I think streamlining our processes can be done, but I think all immigration laws need to have border security and screening of applicants as a must. I don’t believe these are unfair or unrealistic things.
As for dealing with groups like this caravan, I don’t believe we should throw more money and effort at trying to get them into this country. They knew from the start they were not following our laws. I have little patience for that. It’s like raising children…if they start screaming and you reward them to get them to quiet down, you establish a pattern where they recognize that when they scream, they get rewarded. Same thing here. If we do extra to make things right for them, it will ensure that we will have more people showing up, intent on violating our border laws, with the understanding they will get preferential treatment over those that are following the rules. Having them stuck in Tijuana, to me, does two things…it first off sends the message that wanton violation of our laws is no longer tolerated and secondly it tells Mexico that giving all these people a pass on getting through their country so they can violate our borders is no longer going to be a painless proposition for them.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly Nice speech, though as usual you are way off base on my thoughts and feelings. By the way…the question still stands…what is wrong with enforcing our laws? You never have answered that one. But as usual you will deflect by creating what I think or what Trump thinks or what makes me tick. But you really never have answered the simple question. Though points for creativity with this answer because you are trying to rewrite the laws. Hey @JLeslie why aren’t you asking @stanleybmanly to provide a citation that says our laws support illegal entry into our country? See? This is one of those occasions, yet you are oddly silent on them. Must be me. So what about it @stanleybmanly…what is your proof that our laws protect illegal entry into our country? I’d love to see this one.
Oh! and trying to say I define the problem with complete disregard or falsification (I need another citation for proof of that claim too) of the motivations is just another dodge of my question…Why is enforcing our laws wrong? Tell you what, skippy, you provide me the answer to that question and the citations I ask for and I will be happy to continue this debate.

stanleybmanly's avatar

You’re so full of shit. I’ll find you the citation the moment you produce ANY words of mine stating that our laws support illegal entries. Must you CONSISTENTLY draw jackass conclusions from ludicrous “facts” of your own invention?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie I didn’t think feeling sorry for people around the world needed to be said tbh. Putting Rep or Dem in front of your name doesn’t mean you have/ lack a heart or empathy.

What I feel is that immigration has been an issue for a long time and no one, even Obama, was willing to tackle it. I also think that to some of us, threats to use violence at the border against US Citizens who are Border Patrol, is a line in the sand.

We have huge subcultures that coexist with little to no issues here in the heavily white, Christian Midwest. When something does happen, we take it very seriously. Like the two Mexicans who coerced a mentally handicapped woman into their house, kept her a sex slave until rescue. Crime happens and I will call those people criminals, and yes they were illegal. That is what people are afraid of happening since it already happens, and some people are screaming racists and acting as if we should pretend these crimes don’t happen, but THEY DO~ When some people here illegal immigrant, it’s a negative association, they think of that poor mentally handicapped girl and then hear you guys screaming ‘let them in, those poor people’, “you’re all racists”, and it creates very negative feelings.

Here it is if you want to read it: https://www.ky3.com/content/news/2-face-rape-kidnapping-charges-in-case-of-missing-Greene-Woman-419764453.html

There were two Muslim men who slipped a mickey to a college girl and tried to take her in a cab, home, to rape her. The cabbie saved her life. We are not hicks that don’t interact with other faiths or cultures, but we see both sides of it, and generally call a spade a spade.

Anyway, my point is, I understand where you’re coming from, but some immigrants, legal or not, are criminals. I can’t sugarcoat the truth and I don’t think you’d want me to, you know some of them are criminals.
Honestly, look at your own post about white Christians, which is a very broad group of people and VERY different in beliefs from each other, yet you still classified all of us as lacking empathy. If you don’t want white Christians making those broad generalizations, then you need to stop doing it, too.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 If you paid attention at all, you would appreciate that NOT ONCE have I contested here the enforcement of the immigration laws. It is YOUR President that the courts slap around for defying the legal statutes and the stupidities both you and he continue to parrot eg: the caravan is illegal and it’s participants are by definition criminal. Neither the fool or your silly ass is in any position to make that supposition, and if you had the sense God gives a tumbleweed you would shut up about it.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I specifically said not all Christians, I specifically said Christians with a narrow experience who live in very White Christian areas sometimes like empathy, I said they are sympathetic though, and of course it is not all of those Christians living in those areas, and I specifically said I do not believe my republican friends to be racist. I have defended white Christians over and over and over again on this site. For some reason you, and others, interpret my words not as I believe I have written them. When I talk about what if you lived in a place with many Muslims, I am talking about America, not some foreign land. What if the community you live in had a large influx of Muslims, now do you want prayer in school? Let’s the school system is run by the city, and the city now has a majority Muslim school board.

Of course the Mexicans who kidnapped a woman are criminals!

If anyone short of citizen commits a heinous crime they should be deported or jailed legal her or not. People with working permits, green cards, travel visas, all levels, if they commit a felony they are supposed to be stripped of eligibility to be in our country and dealt with appropriately for the crime they committed. I agree with that 100%.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly as per your request:

“The wulf and Trump are right. We’re a place reputed to have a soft spot for the suffering and persecuted. Better than that, we have laws in place looking out for such folks regardless of the occasional idiot at the helm.”

Your words. Now correct me if I’m wrong, but you just stated that we have laws in place looking our for such folks as those in the caravan
. What laws? I have given you your words now I demand your end of the deal that you produce the citations that show those laws. Or you could just admit you are being a jackass. Also, while you’re at it, how about the citation of how I falsified the problem or even disregarded the problem. You are lacking on that as well, fool.
Now here’s the real kicker…the only laws you can possibly come up with that apply to the caravan folks are the immigration laws that I am saying we need to enforce. This answer is the same one you say I am disregarding. You have talked yourself into a corner.
Now, go ahead and dodge and deflect. I won’t hold my breath on the citations since you have adamantly avoided it already. I suspect you know you are full of shit.

JLeslie's avatar

I noticed a typo, I wrote “like” empathy rather than lack empathy…are sympathetic.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@seawulf575 . I notice that you conveniently haven’t addressed the fact that you yourself have likely violated our country’s laws, and have not been punished. Yet you keep pounding your hypocritical drum, wanting to punish others. Keep exposing your hypocrisy. It weakens your every word…

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I have indeed broken laws and not gotten caught. Does that make it right? No. Does that mean that we shouldn’t enforce our laws? No. And that is where you on the left fall down. You feel like because someone “gets away with it” that it is okay. For example: The speed limit is 55 and I’m driving 63. I am breaking the law. The fact that I might go by a cop and not get a ticket doesn’t change the fact I am breaking the law. If he decides to pull me over and give me a ticket, he is absolutely in the right. Now if I feel the 55 speed limit is ridiculous, I have three options in front of me. First is to start an effort to change the speed limit on that road. The second is to keep my speed at or below 55. The third is to flaunt the law and continue to drive over 55. 2 of those answers are legal…one is not.
It really comes down to reinforcement and establishment of norms. Pretty much every where in the US if you drive 2 or 3 miles over the speed limit, no cop will ticket you. They COULD, but it is an enormous waste of time for a minor infraction. So they have set the new norm…speed limit + a couple mph is okay. It doesn’t change the law, it just means it isn’t getting enforced as it is written. So everyone goes a couple mph over the speed limit. Now, let’s move this to immigration. We have specific laws about how to enter our country. If you are strolling along the border and accidentally set foot inside US territory, you have broken the law. The fact that nothing would probably happen to you is insignificant. Now, let’s take it a step further. For decades, people from Central and South America have trekked up through Mexico in an effort to walk right into the USA. They know that walking right into our nation is against the law and they could be detained, fined and/or deported. Yet they continue to come. Why? Because for decades we have sent the message that we will do nothing to them. In fact it has gotten to the point that in many cases they actually get rewarded with under-the-table pay for jobs. California is even trying to give them driver’s licenses. Sanctuary cities have popped up to protect them. They are seeing rewards for breaking our laws. So they don’t see walking illegally into our country as a bad thing because it is not strongly enforced and there are benefits to it. The law didn’t change…it is still illegal to do…but the new norm is that it isn’t enforced consistently or effectively. You on the left cannot argue that. And you cannot tell me why it is wrong to enforce those laws. Trump has come along and has made enforcement a priority. You Trump-haters’ heads are about to explode, but you really can’t defend your arguments. You just know that you hate Trump and so anything he does is going to be horrible. But when challenged on the actual topic, you cannot argue effectively. Because you cannot defend breaking the law. You are like the whiny fool that gets a ticket for going 64 in a 55 complaining that the speed limit is stupid. He isn’t willing to follow the law, yet is too lazy to push for a change in the law. So he gets a ticket. Kinda the same thing…you want to try justifying why illegal immigration should be okay. You aren’t willing to push for a change of the law, you just want the cop to not enforce it.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 So, you are a criminal. Got it.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie The she without sin cast the first stone.

JLeslie's avatar

I didn’t cast anything. Don’t be a hypocrite. You broke the law, you said anyone who breaks the law is to be named a criminal, so you call yourself a criminal. I’m just using the word you prefer. I try to consistently call people as they preferred to be identified. I ask black people if they prefer African American or black. If my Mexican MIL prefers Mexican to Hispanic I’ll use that. If you prefer criminal, which is what you have argued this entire Q, then I’ll oblige you and call you criminal.

I don’t use that word criminal for every little breach in the law if left to my own use of the English language, that’s your thing, but if that is the identity you prefer I will use it for you out of respect for how you define yourself.

seawulf575's avatar

Yes, but you knew I DID use that term for anyone who breaks the law. So you used it the way I wanted, which meant you were being judgy. Want to say you have never broken the law? Get over yourself. Tell you what, I like people to call me a great and rational human with good ideas. You going to start calling me that as well?

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 Let’s start with the basic law U.S. title 8, section 1225 which states that any alien REGARDLESS OF STATUS may apply for asylum once within the country for ANY reason or at any portal to the country. There’s the protection, dummy. These people are entitled by law to make a claim of asylum, whereupon they have the right to due process. It doesn’t matter if they arrive by caravan or space shuttle. They are PROTECTED from the arbitrary abuse of our slow witted President and the wishes of your feeble minded brethren.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly amazing. Are you taking lessons from @Squeeky about giving citations to me that disprove everything you are spewing? Or do you just not actually read the things you cite? Or do you just expect me to not read them? Okay, 8USC1225 it is.
There is so much more here that just beats you over the head. It references to the section on asylum which all of the members of this caravan will have a hard time claiming since they rejected it in Mexico. I talks about how to deal with applicants which these people aren’t It lays out the direction interviews will go. But nowhere does it ever say this caravan is afforded any protections. You own statement here bears that out: U.S. title 8, section 1225 which states that any alien REGARDLESS OF STATUS may apply for asylum once within the country for ANY reason or at any portal to the country. Please note what you wrote: ONCE WITHIN THE COUNTRY. They are not in the country.
Why is it you liberals seem to have such a hard time with interpretation of facts and actually reading and understanding the citations you try to use?

JLeslie's avatar

Lol. I just can’t anymore.

flo's avatar

This thread reminds me of this:
https://www.macleans.ca/lindsay-shepherd-wilfrid-laurier/

https://tinyurl.com/ycwzsr33 (Google/Lindsey Shepard) Take your pick of search result.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 I’m beginning to have serious doubts regarding your ability to follow or sustain a logical thought. This last answer of yours serves to demonstrate that you are either deliberately obtuse or hopelessly idiotic. Either way, I wish you the best of luck in coping with your affliction.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I am VERY pleased with @seawulf575 galvanizing my opinions. It’s funny how he cannot seem to see his hypocrisy. I will have to suppose that he thinks that his white privilege means he can break the law, and our president too, because they aren’t filthy brown people…

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 ever driven over the speed limit? Rolled through a stop sign? Crossed a street not in a crosswalk? Ever start your car before your seatbelt is connected? Ever litter? If you have done any of these things you have broken the law. It happens every day, millions of times a day, in this country. That isn’t saying that people doing these things feel they can break the law…it just says they are willing to try getting away with it. If they got caught, they would have to deal with the consequences.. That’s what the law is all about. Being an ex-LEO, I would have thought you’d know these things. And here’s the kicker….race has nothing to do with these things…people of all races do these things and more every day. Oh wait! that doesn’t help your argument about trying to slam me or Trump. Yeah….got it. Guess it got harder to walk on water after they put those holes in your feet, eh? And you have galvanized my opinions as well. You cement my views of liberals more with every post.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly interesting. You make a bold claim, yet have given no proof. You claim I can’t follow or sustain a logical thought. You make a personal attack on me without any point of reference. Are you mad because I took your citation and showed you where it lacked the support you thought it did? How is that being unable to follow or sustain a logical thought? Maybe it is time to admit you are w-r-o-n-g. Your own words show how wrong you are. This caravan, and in fact all illegal immigrants, are not protected by any of our laws until they start following the laws for immigration or asylum. But they have proven they don’t want to do that.

stanleybmanly's avatar

The evidence above sadly speaks for itself. Run the conversation past someone you respect, and good luck.

seawulf575's avatar

Got it….you have no response. I think I pretty well got you to that stage a couple comments back. Pretty sad.

stanleybmanly's avatar

That’s right. I can’t fool you.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@seawulf575 . I’ve done a lot of stupid things in my life. I’m not the one saying that the law needs to be followed so stringently. YOU are. That makes you a hypocrite.

I’m not a liberal, but if you have learned something about humanity, that’s great. I guess an old wulf can learn new tricks.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Good to know you break the law too. So your white privilege makes you think it doesn’t apply to you?

Dutchess_III's avatar

It depends on the media. Many journalists are intent on honest and fair reporting. Many others are not. It’s up to the people to decide what they want.

Some jellies have said they prefer news sites that are slanted toward their political beliefs, so that’s what they go looking for. As odd as I find that, it’s what they want.

Others try very hard to vet their sources before giving them any weight.

flo's avatar

If you smoke does it mean you have to say smoking is healthy for you? Otherwise (i.e if you say “please don’t start stop if you can it’s harmful”) you’re a hypocrite?

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