Social Question

mazingerz88's avatar

What would you do when there’s a secret white supremacist in your hobby group?

Asked by mazingerz88 (25284points) December 27th, 2018 from iPhone

For example a photography group of about 30 active members who are diverse.

One African-American member told the group’s organizers about the white supremacist member and he wants them to tell the whole group about it especially the other members who are minorities but the organizers refused since the WS haven’t done or said anything about his beliefs toward any of the members.

The African-American member strongly believes that the whole group should know, most critically the other African-American members. What do you think?

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198 Answers

canidmajor's avatar

How does the person know that there is a WS member? Have they been threatened or seen them spouting their WS beliefs on easily accessible social media? This is a very slippery slope unless such a thing can be easily substantiated.

If it can be, the approval of the group’s organizers is not necessary, if it can’t be, the proof has to be pretty incontrovertible or it borders on slander.

josie's avatar

If it’s a secret, how do they know?

KNOWITALL's avatar

Why would a WS even be in a group with people he thinks are subhuman and incapable of thought? That makes no sense at all.

To me, it sounds like the organizers should let the purported WS member know about these ‘rumors’ so he can address them or leave voluntarily.

mazingerz88's avatar

^^The African-American member showed evidence in video.

The WS was outed in another hobby group and had to travel long distance just to participate in this other group. Let’s just say he needs to do this activity.

Correct, what I also think the organizers should do but they won’t do it. What they did was let him know they were told about it and that a few others in the group already know.

But none of those who know are African-Americans.

canidmajor's avatar

If the AA member has this evidence legally, he can do whatever he wants with it. He himself can choose to disclose.

mazingerz88's avatar

^^The AA member doesn’t want the organizers to boot him out. He just wants them to inform the members especially the other AA’s.

canidmajor's avatar

He can quietly inform other members, then.

seawulf575's avatar

It sounds like the AA doesn’t like the other person and is calling them a WS. If the accused has shown no outward hostilities, has not made any comments that would cause a problem, then the AA is out of line even discussing it. He/she is stirring trouble. Please note, that’s not saying that the other person isn’t a white supremacist, but the situation makes me think they aren’t. If they were a true WS, then (a) why would he stay in an organization that welcomes blacks? (b) How would he manage to stay in that situation without anyone else really catching any hints of his feelings?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@mazingerz88
Why doesn’t the AA just confront the WS and be done with it? And what’s the point, to get the WS to quit the group, even though he hasn’t done or said anything racist?

seawulf575's avatar

And if this person (the WS) isn’t causing any problems, what is the problem? What if the “WS” did research and found dirt in the AA past, should he bring it up as well? Or should they both just get on with life and stop discriminating against others?

mazingerz88's avatar

^^AA should not discriminate against WS?

Dutchess_III's avatar

Why does everyone need to know, unless there is a valid concern that his values could be used to harm someone?

mazingerz88's avatar

^^ I guess the AA thinks the harm is not knowing.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Interesting. Would they use this knowledge to treat him differently or badly?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@mazingerz88 I can see that, to a degree. I certainly wouldn’t want a known child molester or pedophile in any group I’m involved in.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I think that’s little different somehow @KNOWITALL.

canidmajor's avatar

White supremacists have been known to harm and kill others, @Dutchess_III. It’s not that different. Lynch8ng is a good example of that.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@canidmajor Both kill the soul of their victims anyway.

The point is, I wouldn’t want to associate with a person like that, in or outside of the group, which is probably how AA feels, too. Makes sense.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I know that @canidmajor, but do they have reason to believe this individual would actually do anything like that? If so, then I think it would be a matter for the authorities.
I guess he just needs to be kicked out and be done with it.

ucme's avatar

I’d hope they brought enough gum for everyone.

mazingerz88's avatar

^^No the individual shows no signs nor indication that he would physically harm anyone. He wants to do photography.

stanleybmanly's avatar

I think more proof is required before the “accused” is ostracized. Even with proof, the issue should not be decided on the man’s beliefs.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Well, what do the African Americans want to do with the information? Do they want to avoid him, or harass him or beat him up or what?

@KNOWITALL, it’s a little different than a child molester. You would definitely want to know so you could keep your defenseless children away from him. The African American men are not defenseless.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess_III I don’t have kids so it’s not a protective thing, it’s a scum of the earth type thing, and I won’t share airspace willingly with a monster.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I wouldn’t either. But I could tolerate a white supremacist as long as he kept his views to himself. I could tolerate a member of the Black Panthers under the same logic, too. I could NOT tolerate a child molester.

mazingerz88's avatar

@stanleybmanly Just to clarify, you believe AA should mingle socially with non-violent WS?

Dutchess_III's avatar

That isn’t what he was saying. He’s asking if there is any reason for them to know. They can choose to mingle with whoever they want.
I wonder if any other members of the club have secrets in their lives that should be made public knowledge?

JLeslie's avatar

For me, the scary thing is would he be violent? It’s hard to know.

I like the idea that maybe if this supposed WS spends time with minorities he will change his idea of them, but if he is hard core WS and thinks violence is ok, and actively promotes racism himself, that’s quite unnerving.

I’d maybe confront him and ask his story.

My guess is there are different varieties of WS. Not that I’m ok with any of it, but there seems to be a whole bunch of people who love being white, think “white culture” is better, love their guns and other things they identify with, but aren’t violent. They compare to black peoples hsving their own organizations.

josie's avatar

Come on, there must be some way to make this person’s life miserable.

rojo's avatar

We tolerate them here on Fluther. At least, some of us do.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Who do we tolerate @rojo? White supremacists?

seawulf575's avatar

@mazingerz88 AA should not discriminate against WS?
No, he shouldn’t. How is discrimination right? Isn’t it just hate of someone based on some characteristic?

I guess the AA thinks the harm is not knowing.

Isn’t that the thinking of all racists? They believe that someone is bad so they dislike them and treat them badly because of their own beliefs?

@canidmajor White supremacists have been known to harm and kill others So have black people. So have white people. So have latinos. So have Asians. So have men and women. So have homosexuals. And as with all these others, if you were to say the same thing about them, what would that say about you? It sounds as if you are trying to justify hate.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie There are as many kinds of racists as there are people in the world. The two I have known are the violent ones, who actively recruit and act upon hate.

Then there are ones that are old fat guys who just grumble and do nothing.

seawulf575's avatar

@KNOWITALL and by the sounds of it, the “white supremacist” being described in this question actually is neither. He isn’t vocal about his beliefs, he isn’t recruiting, he isn’t even grumbling. He is just trying to enjoy photography.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@seawulf575 I know right?! It may be a better solution to try to befriend the guy and see what happens personally instead of relying on heresay or some video, or even just demonizing a stranger. I have the feeling there is more to the story.

josie's avatar

@seawulf575

“Isn’t it just hate of someone based on some characteristic?

Discrimination, the kind that is illegal, is the negative moral judgement based on a characteristic that is not of their choosing. Such as skin color.

Ideas are of one’s choosing and are subject to moral scrutiny and judgement.

mazingerz88's avatar

@seawulf575 Got it. If you were black and not white you won’t discriminate against those who only think you are inferior and doesn’t do anything to hurt you physically. Pretty admirable.

Response moderated (Personal Attack)
Dutchess_III's avatar

Well hell, @mazingerz88. As a women I lived a great part of my life being discriminated against by men who truly believed that all women were inferior. I didn’t respond by discriminating against men, though. I’d set them straight now and again, but not if I had no reason to.
I just had to get over it.

mazingerz88's avatar

Turning the other cheek takes great muscle strength.

Dutchess_III's avatar

But see, at this point there is nothing to turn the other cheek from. He hasn’t done or said anything to anyone in the group.

mazingerz88's avatar

I think that’s why the concerned AA member wants the organizers to be the ones to tell the other AA members.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Because why?

mazingerz88's avatar

It’s their group. The organizers spend time and money to keep the group.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@mazingerz88 So man up and ask the WS instead of taking some old video as proof of guilt. And btw, some people can actually change over time, and it’s kind to give people the benefit of the doubt.

mazingerz88's avatar

The AA should man up to ask the WS what again? He doesn’t want him booted out or to leave, just the other minorities in the group informed…by the organizers.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I’m really confused. Why do some people want to stir the pot? To “warn” them? So they can retaliate? Why?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@mazingerz88 He should say something like “I saw an old video that showed you making racial slurs and I wanted to ask you about it face to face, since you haven’t shown our mixed group anything but love.” – something like that.

I honestly don’t think AA has the right to say anything to anyone without being 100% sure. I’m not sure I believe he doesn’t want him to leave or to be booted out, because otherwise what is the point in telling everyone?

@Dutchess_III I agree with you, it makes no sense if AA doesn’t want ‘anything to happen’. If the majority of the group is a minority and you out a racist, something will more than likely happen and it probably won’t be good.

Frankly, if AA keeps it up, I’d ask HIM to leave and not come back, for being a drama king.

mazingerz88's avatar

It was somewhat pointed out already above in a post. The AA is bothered that there are minorities in the group who have no idea they have a WS for a member.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Exactly @KNOWITALL. Leave the man alone unless / until he does something to deserve getting his butt kicked.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@mazingerz88 But he doesn’t know for a fact that that is even true, that’s what makes it wrong.

Listen, if the guys a racist, then call him out on it after the group or before the group and make sure before you get the guy beat up. That’s the only way AA comes out of this looking like a real man.

mazingerz88's avatar

Assume that he knows for a fact.

I think the AA doesn’t want the group disrupted like that. The members probably enjoy it.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@mazingerz88 You understand that to me, something like that is tantamount to calling someone a pedophile. It’s not good, especially in the current political climate. It’s very hard for me to assume he knows that for a fact, and if he did and had evidence, I would probably keep that knowledge to myself.

Unless the group is about races or racial issues, it really has no bearing on the group at all.

What if your friend had a DWI and lost his license for five years, is that the groups business? Someone may want a ride to group sometime.

What if your friend beat his gf up a couple years ago, is that the groups business?
Someone in the group may be female.

You see where I’m going with this? I hate to quote the bible at you, but “first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”

mazingerz88's avatar

Well, to the organizers I think it’s not tantamount to being a pedophile if you’re a non-violent WS.

Dutchess_III's avatar

If it’s a fact then it will slip out from the racist sooner or later. People will catch on and then you guys can deal with it. Saying anything now is nothing more than gossip and makes everyone look petty.

I don’t think it’s the same thing either @mazingerz88. If we knew for a fact that a person was a child molester I’d be the first in line to beat the shit out of him.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@mazingerz88 I’m not comparing the two, I’m saying it’s highly offensive to myself and many other people to be called racist without 100% proof. HIGHLY.

mazingerz88's avatar

Well, who could argue with that?

That’s why I said assume that he is indeed a WS and what then should or could be done to properly and maybe even fairly address this particular concern of this AA member?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@mazingerz88 But you never said what he was concerned about, that’s why I assumed he was being a drama king.

Is he concerned the guy will bring an AK and mow them all down over some bad photographs or what?

The WS would be an idiot to pop off in a mixed group, that’s why the situation is confusing. I see no harm and no benefit for either party.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I don’t understand why it needs to be addressed? So they can kick him out? Beat him up? Treat him like shit?

mazingerz88's avatar

I answered this up there. : ) Somewhere.

Dutchess_III's avatar

So I looked back on every single one of your answers and did not see where you answered the question. I don’t see how it would be of any benefit to anyone.

seawulf575's avatar

@Josie that may indeed be the illegal version of discrimination, but here is the part of the definition that actually applies to this situation:

” Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners.”

Because isn’t that, after all, what is happening? The one individual believes another fits into some category and is trying to treat him differently because of that. The second individual has shown nothing that would warrant that behavior. So yes, it is discrimination. And while there is legal definitions that can be used in law suits, discrimination sucks even when it is not fitting into the legal definition.

seawulf575's avatar

@mazingerz88 “Got it. If you were black and not white you won’t discriminate against those who only think you are inferior and doesn’t do anything to hurt you physically”

Wow. Where do I start with that? First off, you are hung up on race. If I were black?!? You honestly believe I have never been the victim of discrimination even though I am white? Haven’t I been accused of using my “white privilege” for no other reason than I am white? With no facts to back it up? In fact I will tell you that as a middle class white american male, I am one of the most abused groups there is. When someone treats me like crap, I just have to deal with it. If I were black or Asian or Latino or a woman, the same person blowing me crap would think twice because there is a chance it could be viewed as discrimination. I have been passed over for promotions because the person that got it threatened to play the race card.
Secondly, your statement tells me a lot about you. You are all about revenge…period. I am not, but you want to take your views and project them onto me. That same person that got promoted over me? Yeah…he and I are still friends to this day. I didn’t hold it against him…he was just trying to get ahead like everyone else. He wasn’t running me down, he was playing the system. No…I don’t discriminate because I feel I was wronged somewhere along the line. So please….keep your own small-mindedness as your own. You and I see things far differently and apparently I am the one that is much more inclusive and open minded.

mazingerz88's avatar

^^Just answer the hypothetical question I asked please. If you were black…

seawulf575's avatar

^^I did answer the hypothetical question. I don’t buy into lowering myself to the level of those I don’t respect. That is your answer. Unfortunately you seem to live to try dragging people to your level.

mazingerz88's avatar

And your answer was what exactly? In a phrase clearly answering my question

Here it is again.

( Got it. If you were black and not white you won’t discriminate against those who only think you are inferior and doesn’t do anything to hurt you physically?
Pretty admirable.)

notnotnotnot's avatar

@seawulf575: “In fact I will tell you that as a middle class white american male, I am one of the most abused groups there is.”

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I do not use the word racist synonymously with WS. I don’t even define racist the way a lot of jellies do. Like I said in my answer, if the guy isn’t violent then I think let him stay, maybe he’ll realize the blacks, Jews, and Hispanics in the class are ok, even kind and helpful. He might have a tiny bit of a change of heart.

I’m not quick to use the word racist. I don’t equate prejudice or stereotyping directly with throwing around the word racist. But, being part of a WS group is pretty awful in my book, unless it’s just white guys who want a white only club and don’t mean any harm. I don’t like that either, I think it’s wrong to exclude, but I do see it as two different things.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie Change is good if its true, but I’m skeptical.

Okay. Here they are one and the same.

mazingerz88's avatar

@Dutchess_III The benefit in the pov of the AA is for the other AA’s and other minority members to at least be aware.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL What is one and the same?

RedDeerGuy1's avatar

I would quit. Less trouble to change myself than others.

Unofficial_Member's avatar

I don’t really care, that is his personal belief and he’s entitled to it. Depending on the situation I might take advantage of the situation for myself. If I need to get closer to him then I’ll pretend to be awed by his supremacy and sing along with him, if there’s no benefit then I’ll just ignore him.

On the other hand, I enjoy a good conflict/drama once in a while so I’ll encourage this snitch to express his thoughts to others and to openly spread the rumors, when this supremacist hears it there would be war, which will serve to entertain me if the hobby group is so boring hahaha.

Pinguidchance's avatar

The AA and the WS should be banned from taking black and white photographs for a period of 2 weeks.

During this time they should be restricted to colour photography.

Counselling about indiscriminate discrimination should be made available to both parties.

The AA should have his tripod confiscated for 2 days for outing the WS using a video instead of still photography.

The WS should have his pics hung with too much white light for 2 days.

They should be consigned to a dark room to discuss the negative aspects of their grievances to see what develops with a view to a positive outcome.

tinyfaery's avatar

The most hilarious part of this is the if you were black part. No one knows what they would do because no one has lived that life.

Post the video to social media and drop a link. Let everyone decide what they think.

JLeslie's avatar

@Unofficial_Member You don’t care, but the tricky part is: is he dangerous? I see a swastika and I wonder if that guy wants to kill me, it’s not just a difference of opinion about races and racism. I see a confederate flag and I wonder, does that person prefer I didn’t exist? It’s not just a symbol of the South to me. I’m not being paranoid, it’s a fairly rational concern. So, even if the white guy who likes this symbols would never hurt a fly, I don’t know that. He associates himself with people who would, especially if they are White Supremicists. WS isn’t just republicans who are caught up in this white culture stuff. WS is much scarier to me.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@mazingerz88 I know the purpose is for others to be aware…but WHY do they need to be aware? Are they expected to do something with the information? Is everyone on the group aware of everyone else’s secret thoughts?

@JLeslie the very name “White supremacy” = the epitome of racism.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess_III I think it’s kind of in @JLeslie answer. The grouping under WS, can define many different people who all define it similarly but react very differently. Some may be harmless grumpy old men, some may be active violent participants. You just don’t know, but one thing I can tell you, is that it’s better to be safe than sorry when it comes to that segment of the population.

I’m still skeptical that it’s necessary to tell the whole group, but if there is no one who will confront the man and deal with it honestly, then perhaps this is the best passive-aggressive path to take.

Dutchess_III's avatar

They may define it differently, some more complicated than others, but in the end they all like to believe that white people are superior human beings somehow.

What is there to”‘deal with”? What does that even mean?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess_III This hypothetical drama is what I was talking about.

Unofficial_Member's avatar

@JLeslie As the court said “you’re innocent until you’re proven guilty”. We don’t have any right to take any action that can alter the outcome of having this supremacist in the group. He’s legally accepted in the group, just like everybody else. I don’t care about what he hasn’t done yet, I don’t even know if he’ll do it or already have a change of heart or something else, what’s more important in the hobby group is to have fun doing what you like. Don’t let an individual with different perspective bother you. If you can’t do anything about it it’s best to not bother to do it in the first place. You can still exercise your right to avoid having any contact with people you don’t like/trust, though.

Dutchess_III's avatar

That’s a good point @Unofficial_Member. There could even be legal implications for starting rumors like that, even if you are certain it’s true.

Unofficial_Member's avatar

Tehehe, Of course, @Dutchess_III . But there’s no legal implication for the one who stimulate the person to spread the rumor, right? I mean, I still want to quietly watch the drama unfold (Sandwich and tea have been prepared).

Dutchess_III's avatar

I think the drama is over, but not sure what the consensus was, or if there even was one.
I don’t know the answer to your question, though. I think the person who started the rumor would be as responsible.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess_III According to @mazingerz88, we must assume it’s not a rumor but fact. From a post above.

stanleybmanly's avatar

It always cracks me up when a white man claims membership in a persecuted group—white men. When a white man reared in the Southern United States makes such a claim while extolling the superiority of his own open mindedness you gotta notice.

mazingerz88's avatar

@Dutchess_III The knowledge and the awareness is enough for the AA. The purpose, if I have to guess is to then let them decide, those other minorities, as what to do about it.

The AA eventually left the group yet around the same time he also got suspended along with the WS.

But several meetings later, the WS is still showing up while the AA has totally given up the group.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Why did the African Americans leave the group? We never got to the end so I don’t know if they were told, and if they were, how it affected the group.

mazingerz88's avatar

Not all the AA left just the one who knew about the WS. The other AAs are still in there still unaware.

And apparently there are more AAs now who have just joined the group.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Well, why didn’t the people who knew tell the others?

mazingerz88's avatar

You mean the organizers? I think they have made their decision not to. Imo that’s them taking the same position as some here do. The WS is merely doing photography.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I mean the African Americans who left. Why didn’t THEY tell the other blacks?

mazingerz88's avatar

There’s only one AA who knew. Who told the organizers. He got suspended and he left. Not sure which happened first.

And as I mentioned before, he doesn’t want to do the informing. He wants the organizers to do it since it is their group.

The rest of the other minorities, Asian, Hispanic and Blacks still don’t know.

And every new member who will be joining would probably never know. Especially from the organizers.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Who got suspended and left? The African American who told the organizers?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess_III Yes. Sounds like the organizers made a good logical decision and AA didn’t agree so he left, rather than sit across from a WS or reformed WS, we’ll probably never know now since no one asked the guy to his face.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Why the hell would he get suspended though?

mazingerz88's avatar

It’s strange what the organizers did.

They suspended both of them but in the end the AA chose to leave totally while the WS remained in the group.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess_III Based on the info we have been given, he probably overstepped his boundary with the organizers, or left in a hissy fit because he didn’t get his way. Just my guesses.

Dutchess_III's avatar

It’s messed up that either one was suspended. And no one else was aware of any undercurrents at all @mazingerz88? You’d think the guy who left would have sent some sort of message back. How weird.
And do you have any idea what the white supremacist had to say about his suspension?

mazingerz88's avatar

I kind of doubt the WS ever heard he was suspended. Lol

But even if he really got suspended or both of them…my guess now is it’s the organizers strategy to diffuse the situation and then wait and see what happens.

I think it worked. The way they wanted it.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Sounded like a wise move to me. In some situations, like this one, what you don’t know can’t hurt you.
But, in the unlikely event something happens to one of the minorities because of this guy, then the organizers will be liable.

mazingerz88's avatar

^^I think so too.

Hoping for that best case scenario here. Photography hobbyists enjoying photography.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Yeah, if he starts gravitating toward photos of lynchings and shit, it’s time for a Come To Jesus meetin’!

JLeslie's avatar

@Unofficial_Member I was one of the people saying let him stay, assuming he isn’t violent. I’m just trying to explain that people who aren’t minorities don’t know what it’s like. If you are a woman you might know if you worry when you are walking alone in the dark and 3 men start walking in your direction.

I’m sure I’ve been around WS and didn’t even know it. I realize they interact with me and some don’t even realize I’m Jewish. They might even be in some of the groups and classes I’ve participated in.

Unofficial_Member's avatar

@JLeslie I am a minority and I still don’t care about that. It’s perfectly fine to be cautious but worrying needlessly especially when you couldn’t do anything about it is useless, you’ll eventually wear down your mind. Walking alone in the dark and someone who isn’t carrying a weapon (not to mention the only different person in the group) in a large group are both different cases with different level of immediate danger. Goodness, I live in a place where most women cover themselves for religious reason, I have no problem interacting nicely with them without any prejudice. I imagine that people in US might feel unsafe if a large group of covered women approach them in public places, some might even fear terrorism, it’s all not fair and shouldn’t be a big problem.

Aethelwine's avatar

I don’t see why this is hard to understand. When you are part of a minority who has a history of being victimized by a specific group it’s good to know who your enemy is. Awareness is very important. You can be aware and still enjoy life.

Unofficial_Member's avatar

^^ I don’t care about what happened in the past. I live in the present and I won’t fabricate a problem from a neutral situation. Being aware and worrying are both different things. One is indicating a knowledge of something where prejudice isn’t a necessity, the other is pure prejudice. At the end of the day it doesn’t matter how others think as long as they don’t have any legal right to make action against the presence of people that share different ideology.

Aethelwine's avatar

@Unofficial_Member My thoughts on this subject come from my experience having a transgender child. His safety is in my hands. If a transphobe or homophobe belongs to a group I belong to I would like to know. I need to know who to avoid for the safety of my child. These people do harm to the community my child belongs to.

Unofficial_Member's avatar

I understand that, @Aethelwine . But what about people that didn’t/haven’t done the thing despite being grouped for such a thing? Can you call someone a thief when that person feel like to swipe off a diamond ring in a jewelry story but ended up not doing it? I agree for the avoiding part, that is our right, what is wrong is wanting to do something to affect the presence of someone who give us the prejudice.

JLeslie's avatar

@Unofficial_Member Muslim women covering themselves is not the same in my book. Joining a White Supremists group is not the same as being a Muslim, but I do understand your point. I’m not afraid of the Muslims, and I certainly don’t assume they are anti-semitic. A White Supremist I assume he probably is anti-semetic, it is one of the cornerstones of their community.

It seems most likely to me this guy would never do anything, most people would not act in violence, not just this guy. However, it is more likely in some groups than others, it’s just a statistical fact in America. Jews and Muslims are attacked disproportionately more than other religions. Same with black peoples and gay people, they are attacked more compared to white Christians. Certain minority groups are more at risk, but overall in America my overall feeling in daily life is that we are all safe and accepted. I’m not in a constant state of paranoia.

seawulf575's avatar

Except, folks, by the OP’s own words, this guy has said and done nothing to cause problems. He just wants to take photographs. So the REAL shit-stirrer is the “minority” that wants to spread gossip. THAT is the racist thing here…THAT is the discrimination. Someone, somewhere dug up something from the guys past that seems to indicate he supported a WS group. With no provocation, the minority group spreads this around, apparently to cause trouble for this guy who, by all accounts, has done nothing in the present day except attempted to join a club and take pictures. That minority then wants to take this information and spread it further, seeing if he can cause problems for this guy.
I don’t give a hoot which group did what to whom in the past. The fact is, as long as we continue to try finding ways to sliver our society in an effort to feel superior or different from someone else, we will have problems. NOBODY agrees with ANYONE on all topics. There is always a way to find a divide. It is when people act or speak out on those divides that we have problems. The minority in this case is causing problems because he is speaking out about a divide. IF the WS were bad-mouthing the minorities, he would be the one causing problems because he is speaking out about a divide.
Here’s another thought…this guy isn’t much of a White Supremacist if he is willingly joining a club that has blacks in it, is he? If he were truly the evil, hateful bigot they are trying to paint him, he wouldn’t want to be associated with them at all and he CERTAINLY wouldn’t be polite to them.

JLeslie's avatar

^^So, are you saying that White Supremicists are now sometimes just simply white?

chyna's avatar

Way back in my 30’s when I was married, my husband and I were friends with a couple that lived on our street. We went out with them a couple times a month, went to their house, they came to ours, etc. One night we were out with them having some drinks, and the man took off a huge ring he wore. He was pretty drunk and he had a swastika tattoo under the ring and said he had to hide it at work. He then proceeded to go off on Disney and all the “jews” (said with venom) they hired. At first we were thinking that he was kidding. We quickly realized he wasn’t. We left and never spoke to them again. It was the most bizarre and most hateful thing I have ever witnessed and for no reason.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@chyna That is very typical behavior. Once they get to know you, they test the waters for like minds.

Thats one thing I can say about fluther. I have never got a PM from someone testing the waters, thats why I get upset with the racist label thrown out so casually here. Real racists always slip up if they think theres another close by, they cant help themselves from normalizing it in their heads.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie I’m saying something close to that. I have seen on these pages where I have been accused of being a white supremacist for the crime of not running Trump down. Labels do that, isn’t it amazing? I’m saying that it might have been a phase the guy was going through years ago and now has changed his views. I’m saying that gossip never ends well. I’m saying that when you look at the facts of the matter, the real victim in all this is the guy that is minding his own business…the one they are calling a white supremacist. It could be that the black guy hates white people…he’s a racist. So he is creating trouble to get rid of the cream out of the coffee.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 You don’t think it possible that white supremacists might deliberately infiltrate integrated organizations to foment mischief?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@stanley No. They would not share airspace unless it was a very good cause. You guys watch American History X. Thats the closest I’ve seen to reality and its pretty awful.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly I think that is a huge stretch. As I said, he would not want to associate with blacks if he was a true WS. And if he was, as your conspiracy theory would imply, infiltrating an integrated organization to foment mischief, he would show some signs of it. Let’s review what we have been told by the OP. First, This is a photography club…not some political organization. The gain from “fomenting mischief” is almost non-existent. What does he really gain? The obvious answer is nothing. If he starts trying to spread racism, he will be booted and he loses, they win…if it’s a challenge that is. Secondly, if he were trying to “foment mischief” there would be some outward signs. By what has been stated, he is merely wanting to take photographs. It is the black people in the group that had to find something historical on this guy to try to brand him a white supremacist. That doesn’t sound like he is trying to foment mischief, but it sure does sound like they are. So no…other than in some warped conspiracy theory, that isn’t realistic in this case.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Seawulf Seems to be just one guy who knows about it and is upset. He wanted to tell all the others.

seawulf575's avatar

@KNOWITALL again…who is stirring the pot here? It might very well be just one guy, but why?

stanleybmanly's avatar

There isn’t enough information here to judge either the accused or the informer.

Response moderated (Personal Attack)
stanleybmanly's avatar

In the case of documented proof, the malcontent is fully justified in presenting that documentation to his fellows. The board is at liberty to do the same.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Well, it all got resolved.

Response moderated
JLeslie's avatar

@chyna That is some story. Just wow.

@KNOWITALL That makes sense to me that they test the waters

@seawulf575 I have to say I’m still bewildered because I’m not quite sure we are all using the same language. If someone says to me they are a WS I assume they belong to a group. Like a club or an organization. KKK or neoNazis, etc. if your telling me that WS are the same as just being a white guy then that is just completely discombobulating to me.

I guess some white people use WS differently than I ever imagined.

Now I know.

Scary to me. Foolish of them in my opinion to associate oneself with that label.

I’m still not sure I completely understand your answer. I don’t think I want to, and I think it is incredibly destructive for our country.

Response moderated
seawulf575's avatar

From what the OP put out, if I read it right, he didn’t state he was a WS. Someone told one of the other members in the club that he was. He hasn’t said or done anything to announce it or push his beliefs if he is indeed a WS. So yes, maybe we do use a different language. We have an accusation from a third party and that seems to be enough to stir the pot. I think maybe the problem is that some people (usually on the left) use WS any time they want to try shutting someone up. As I mentioned, I have been accused of being one for nothing more than not jumping on the bandwagon to bash Trump. So maybe you do have a different definition of what a white supremacist is from me and how they act. To me, it is someone that believes that for some reason white people are superior to others and that they should rule everyone. In my mind this comes out as rudeness towards other groups, racist and hateful language against anyone that doesn’t believe what he believes. He doesn’t want to associate in any way with anyone that doesn’t share his views.Wow. I never realized it before but, except for the white part, that also fits for the liberals I have run across!

Dutchess_III's avatar

I wouldn’t want to associate with anyone of any color who thinks an entire group of people are substandard human beings. Who would? But if I didn’t know about it, and he kept his views to himself, then I wouldn’t know.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone accuse someone of being a WS without a specific reason. Like I said, my perception is WS is not just an attitude, like racism, it’s being a part of a group in my mind that is somewhat organized.

Someone should just ask the guy. Stop the whispering behind his back.

mazingerz88's avatar

@Dutchess_III That’s probably why the AA wants the other minority members to be informed. He’s assuming they wouldn’t want to associate with someone who thinks they are substandard human beings.

mazingerz88's avatar

@JLeslie I’m not sure they were whispering behind his back. The AA showed the video of the WS to the organizers. The AA who initiated all this is already out of the group. He wanted the organizers to tell the other group members about it because it is not his group.

Also, I think the “whispering behind his back” may also be a form of the organizers weighing things and deciding what is fair for everyone involved including the WS. To settle it without disrupting the whole group or worse, causing the group’s demise.

seawulf575's avatar

So the AA threw a turd on the table on his way out the door? That really DOES sound like he is trying to stir up trouble. Especially if the supposed WS hasn’t said or done anything even vaguely wrong.

mazingerz88's avatar

Turd? The guy’s a white supremacist mingling with people he probably thinks should not even exist. As to why he’s even there is confusing.

The AA left leaving the organizers to do what they want.

You’re just immune to threats even potentially misguided perception of it because you are unable to see yourself as a black man.

It drives you crazy just imagining yourself to be one and having your great grandparents just a few decades ago being lynched and asked to pick-up the food they paid for at the back of the restaurant.

The only threat you know and angry about are poor desperate people walking hundreds of miles to cross the border so they can make your life more miserable if not totally destroy you. smh

seawulf575's avatar

But by your own story, they guy that’s supposed to be the WS hasn’t said or done anything that would even hint to anyone that he is. So he is behaving himself. Even if he does feel he is above everyone else, who cares? He isn’t showing it and isn’t insulting anyone and isn’t causing any problems. But the AA got some dirt on him. Not sure why, not sure how. Then, as he is leaving the group, he lobs this information into the group to stir up problems and leaves. I call that tossing a turd on the table.
If the WS had actually said or done something that caused the AA to start looking into his past I could almost understand. But by your story, that didn’t happen.
I’m sorry…it sounds more and more like the AA is the racist dick in this story.

mazingerz88's avatar

So it’s racism to raise alarm over a racist who hasn’t done anything physical showing his racism?

And it’s as simple as racism is racism between two sides where one actually kept the other side as slaves.

Exactly…the…same?

Dutchess_III's avatar

”@Dutchess_III That’s probably why the AA wants the other minority members to be informed. He’s assuming they wouldn’t want to associate with someone who thinks they are substandard human beings.
And my point is, if he believes that, to the bottom of his heart,It will become known. Then they can decide.

mazingerz88's avatar

^^Not sure if it will ever become known.

Humans can hide something forever from clueless people around them. For example you can raise your hand in a Nazi salute in a march a year ago and hide it forever from people you meet occasionally.

People can hide hateful thoughts. Forever.

Dutchess_III's avatar

If he hides it, then what is the problem? Obviously he’s not going to cultivate the minorities to be his best buds outside of the the club.
We all have secrets that people would probably want to shun us if they knew about them.

mazingerz88's avatar

^^It’s not hidden to that AA who knows his WS. It would be interesting to ask him that question. What is the problem?

Dutchess_III's avatar

Well, then he needs to do what he feels is the right thing to do. If telling everyone seems to be it, then that’s what he should do.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@mazinger88 You have not provided evidence this person is a WS. It’s also unlikely an active WS would hang out with minorities in a club or social situation. So essentially you are asking us what we would do in an unlikely scenario. Please provide evidence to support your theory that this person is a WS.

Dutchess_III's avatar

You asked him this already and he responded to you with this. There was a video.

mazingerz88's avatar

^^Yes. Already very clearly stated…please, assume that he is a WS.

Dutchess_III's avatar

And more than once he’s asked us to enter this discussion assuming that it is true.

seawulf575's avatar

@mazingerz88 So your stance is that if I believe you are a racist, it’s okay for me to lambaste you for it, even if you have shown nothing racist and may never show anything racist. But it’s okay for me to start a campaign of hate against you because I deem you to be a racist. That’s all that is required. Is that what you are really saying? Because that’s a really warped view if it is.

mazingerz88's avatar

Yes! If I’m a white supremacist or a black supremacist or a brown supremacist I wouldn’t mind being asked and explain what the fakk I’m doing with people I think are inferior to me and why I associate with a group that has history of lynching and slavery.

I would totally understand why you are befuddled and concerned.

seawulf575's avatar

Or, if I am in a group of people, a club, and am having no problems with any of the individual in that club, why do I CARE what their views are? And if some third party called to gossip about one of the members what does that say? It says, to me, that the third party is a gossip. In something as banal as a photography club, a person’s political views are pretty meaningless. To ME, if someone told me something negative about a person, I will give that person benefit of a doubt. In fact, I have first hand experience in this and KNOW this is how I would react. I got a warning about a new boss. You could Google this guy and find all sorts of things that make him the worst boss ever. Most of it was old history. My response was to give the guy a chance. If he was, in fact, that bad, it would come out and we would deal with it then. If he had changed, then I wouldn’t be starting problems for him. That, to me, seems to be the fair and logical way to deal with it. In fact, others started spreading gossip about him and it caused all sorts of problems. When he finally talked with his direct reports (me as one) in one-on-one discussions, he explained his side. My response to him was that the information being spread was 20 years old. If you challenged me about some of the things I did 20 years before, all I could say is that they seemed like good ideas at the time. I told him I didn’t care about his past and that the present was all that concerned me.
So to ME, spreading and acting on gossip only perpetuates trouble. But I would totally understand why you wouldn’t understand that…it involves character.

mazingerz88's avatar

What exactly does the word gossip mean to you? Is it still gossip if for a fact the guy is a WS?

It seems to me most of the time gossip is silly back talk about something shallow and petty.

Btw I commend you for dealing with that situation in that way.

But please don’t boast of you having character. Because doing that doesn’t give you character.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I actually agree with @seawulf575, but I tried putting the shoe on the other foot and imagined I was in a group like that and a rapist joined. Would I want to know?

I know you weren’t asking me @mazingerz88, but to me gossip is talking about people, usually in a bad way, whether they’re true or not, so the person spreading the gossip can develop a “fan base,” so to speak. A fan base where everyone feels special because THEY knows a “secret.”

mazingerz88's avatar

And is gossip always bad? Or is it discussing things to be prudent because there are other factors to be considered?

In this case it’s not about this AA wanting to build a “fan base.”

KNOWITALL's avatar

Apparently we’re at a stalemate?

Dutchess_III's avatar

@mazingerz88 if he doesn’t want to build a fan base, then why does he want to tell everybody?

seawulf575's avatar

@mazingerz88, Discussing issues is a necessary thing and having open, honest communications is the key. But in this situation, there wasn’t discussion. There wasn’t open, honest communication. There wasn’t even a problem to discuss…remember the WS was a model member of the club. Until gossip came into play. And gossip can indeed be about fact. Suppose you got drunk one night and peed on your friend’s sofa. It would be a fact. Now, suppose years later you joined a club and out of nowhere someone sent information of your couch-peeing to another member and that member spread it to the rest of the club. THAT is gossip. It served no purpose other than to cause trouble. Had you peed on the floor? Had you shown you frequently drink to excess with a history of peeing other peoples’ stuff? No. You were participating in a club that had nothing to do with any of that. So let me ask…was that harmful gossip or was that just discussing a fact?

mazingerz88's avatar

@Dutchess_III I think it’s all up there already.

mazingerz88's avatar

I think the AA wanting to create trouble for the WS is not surprising. He knows he is a WS and that is a big problem to him. To him and to whoever happens to agree with him.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I know it’s “all up there already,” but a simple answer to my question isn’t there. WHY does he want everyone to know? So they can turn against him? So they can kick him out? Why?

My final comment is this: I think that probably every single person in the group— in any group—has private prejudices and deep secrets they want kept. This guy is no different. If it was me (as the question asked) I would just leave it alone unless there was a compelling reason to raise the alarm.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 Here’s the thing. White Supremacist groups are founded and based on racism. That’s their basic charter. So, to start from a place of assuming the person belonging to such a group is racist is reasonable. Wondering if they might be violent isn’t necessary paranoid.

As opposed to an African American association that organizes to help their community. There is no reason to believe the African Americans in that group are full of hate for other groups.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie by that reasoning, a higher percentage of blacks are criminals than whites. So even if the “group” is supposed to be doing good for the community, doesn’t it stand to reason that you should have a certain paranoia about the individual members? And along those same lines, most of the crime against blacks is committed by other blacks. So shouldn’t they start with that paranoia? Why don’t they? Oh wait! I got it…they want the group to meet its goals and not start questioning each other. Is it any different with this? Again….the WS (and we are only asked to accept that he is), hasn’t shown any outward signs at all. He joined a group that is a mixture of black and white. He has been with this group for a while. Yet no one has seen or heard anything out of this guy that would indicate he is a WS. He hasn’t spoken badly about any of the blacks in the group, he hasn’t avoided them. He has done nothing. So really, the prejudice of the AA is what is the source of the conflict in this case. The WS wanted to participate in the photography and is not bringing other stuff in because he wants the club to succeed.
And here’s another thought…what action actually stops the cycle of hate? Starting gossip to try running out a guy that has done nothing to you other than being the wrong race or including him? Which might make him rethink his supremacist ideals? Which confirms them to him?

JLeslie's avatar

^^I said spending time in the group might cause him to change his mind. That was in my very first answer.

Black people simply are black. If they are in a group for helping each other, I don’t assume anyone in there is hateful or violent, they joined a group to help. If they were a Black Panther I would be a little leary. The white guy isn’t a WS to be helpful. The group preaches hate.

Stache's avatar

White people discussing what’s racist. This is priceless.

seawulf575's avatar

@stache, are you really so simple that you believe only white people can be racist?

JLeslie's avatar

@Stache I’m just curious which white people you are talking about, and what exactly you find priceless? I can’t speak for anyone else, but I personally am curious how these jellies who defend white groups and white culture think and the language they use so I can figure out what they actually mean when they use the terms they do. If I need to be afraid or not.

I also personally am in the group WSs want dead. I don’t remember if any of the other jellies on this Q are.

I do agree with you that many white people have no clue what it is really like to have a history of oppression, hate, and murder on their people, and that some of the feelings these white people have about being oppressed themselves are fabricated or at minimum misunderstandings.

However, I think some white people think minirities are overreacting also. I try to listen to that carefully. I completely believe that @KNOWITALL is inclusive in her community, but she also defends whites having separate clubs, and the basic defense is other groups have clubs. I’m thinking that doesn’t rise to the point of hate maybe? Even though I’m against it. It’s just wrong thinking in my mind. WS does rise to the point of hate for me.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie I’m a 70’s child raised on equality and empowerment of all races ams sexes. All this division is terrible imo. I find it interesting some of you are hyper focused on the perceived negativity of a white group but dont understand how all black or other race exclusive groups can feel unequal to white people.
Equality in religion, is all or none. To me, racial groups should be the same. But as usual, anything white is wrong, anyone else is empowering. That shows me equality is not the goal for many people. Sad.

KNOWITALL's avatar

PS I dont need or want a racially segregated world or clubs or groups. The fact I’m not ‘allowed’ to or I’m racist, does bother me. Thats not what Sesame Street taught me about equality for ALL.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I really do understand your point. I don’t quite understand what a white group is getting together for exclusively? What’s their bond? What’s their experience or language that brings them together?

I think I just don’t understand it maybe. I’m not a joiner in general. I don’t belong to the temple, I don’t belong to any of the “Jewish groups” here. Last year I belonged to the Spanish American club because I like big parties with Latin music, many non-Hispanics are in the club. I want my MIL to join, because she doesn’t speak English, and she will meet people there who speak Spanish.

As I’ve said before, I’m not too fond of self segregation myself. I don’t think any group should exclude people. I just received an email regarding the Asian American club inviting anyone who is interested to come to their Lunar New Year party.

Many of the black organizations in the past had white people helping to organize them. I always questioned naming and creating organizations based on race. For instance, the United Negro College Fund, I think it would have been better to make a fund for poor people, and in turn a lot of blacks people would have been helped anyway, but I also can see why it was made specifically for black people at the time of its creation.

The clubs here are to have fun, socialize, and to meet people with similar language, food, experience, and culture, NOT to put down or talk about other people badly. WSs do just that. Being white and appreciating what you identify as your culture is not the same as being a WS and wanting other people in the world to die. Not in my mind. I’m fine with identifying WASPs as a culture or group, they are. They certainly are to sociologists, businesses that use marketing data, and politicians. I just mind if the WASPs want to be so exclusive it harms others. They do have their white groups already in a way, churches tend to be “naturally” segregated and people make friends and create social structures on their own without literally calling it a white group.

When I lived in TN very few whites and blacks socialized together. I didn’t like it, it felt odd to me it was so extreme there, but it was sort of the reality. Part of it was economics I think, part of it was psychographics and cultural differences. Eventually, that will change.

JLeslie's avatar

I’ll just add, imagine you live in Tokyo. There is an international club there if I remember correctly. A place for people who are not native Japanese to find other people who are expats or speak their language.

Why would Tokyo have a Japanese club? What if the Japanese club was known to strategize to harm Americans and you and your family are living there?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie Got it.

What if I created a group called White Mental Wellness. This group discusses the changing world for caucasians as to help decrease murder and mass shootings. Okay or not?

seawulf575's avatar

I always found it wrong to say white people can’t exclude other races and other races can. Not that segregation is good…nothing like that…just that as long as you allow one group to segregate against others, you perpetuate racism. And the hypocrisy in today’s society bears that out. What if I organized a Miss White America contest? Or a NAAWP organization? Does anyone believe they wouldn’t be sued for racial discrimination and I, as the organizer, wouldn’t be branded a racist? Yet we accept Miss Black America and the NAACP and everyone thinks it’s okay. As soon as it stops being okay, we will start on the road towards healing. Take the nationality and race questions off the census. Stop trying to spit our society. When we can do these things, we will show we are starting to understand that people are people. Some are good and some are assholes and color or heritage has nothing to do with that.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I know where your going, but I just don’t get the white part. I guess your group name might speak to the white guys who are feeling squeezed in society. A lot of people feel squeezed though. I’m not even sure what to answer. Are mass shootings happening primarily because of increasing diversity?

@seawulf575 I’m the past it was because white people had so much power in society and were in the majority. They wanted to use private clubs and communities to keep others out and didn’t treat others as equal. They used their power and money to prevent other races and religions from living where they wanted to, eating where they wanted to, they were treated as unwelcome in their own country and their own town of residence just because of skin color or religion. It’s not American.

Minority organizations were developed to try to equal things up. If the whites hadn’t treated minorities like crap to begin with, then there would not have been the need. White people who hate having black people in the US maybe should not have bought and sold black people. Now, they deal with an opposite and also extreme reaction to fix that horrible treatment of human beings. White people who never had anything to do with slavery and segregation have to live with that too. Too bad. Eventually, hopefully, it all levels out and we actually will have equality.

You just are too white to see the difference in your experience and the minority experience I guess.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie You are just too white to see the difference? Wow.

mazingerz88's avatar

To see the difference and feel the difference.

KNOWITALL's avatar

So we cant feel empathy because we have white skin? I havent cried my heart outwatching documentaries about the Holocaust, or slavery? I havent sought out enough horrible RL stories to understand?

I’ve been the only white girl in a house many times, and no one has treated me like I owed them, or was being held to account for what long dead whites did. Ever.

mazingerz88's avatar

Some whites today don’t give a crap their ancestors were slavers and lynchers and expect that minorities today to get over it.

Some whites to this day are members of WS and Nazi groups.

Not clear how the alt-righters and Nationalists compare to WS and Nazis.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I didn’t direct that to you. You and seawulf are not at all the same people. For that matter yellowdog and seawulf are not at all in the same basket either. Seawulf is in a class by himself.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie Most of the minority organizations came out of the whites discriminating against others. That is a true statement. But let’s look at history a little closer. I used Miss Black America and NAACP as examples. The Miss Black America Pageant is 50 years old. That means it started in 1968. Blacks weren’t allowed in the Miss America Pageant at the time. But only 2 years later, they were. So the whites were opening up, being less discriminatory. Yet 48 years later, we still have a separate pageant only for blacks. Why? The NAACP is even more of a bizarre situation. Started in 1909, it was supposed to be a way to help blacks advance themselves in society. It was founded by 2 white people and a black person. So even then, it was set up to help. Meanwhile it took another 55 years for the Civil Rights Act to be signed into being…which was pushed mainly by white people in congress and approved by a white president. Now, another 50 years have gone by. We have blacks in most levels of every organization, we have had a black president, we have blacks in Congress, etc. Yet we still have an organization that is catering only to black people. There is not a single organization that exists in this country that supports only white people…that has been fought in court and decided to be racist. Yet another race can do the exact same thing? How is that right? So until we can get past the victim mentality and stop pushing racism, we are doomed to continue to feed that monster.

JLeslie's avatar

^^Well, my point all along is I’m not very fond of any organization that self segregates, and I agree we are many years later and some of it probably should start going away. However, if racist things keep getting said by leaders and white people start to organize their own self segregating clubs then it just snowballs!

The way to finally end needing and having these separate groups is to treat each other equally.

If you have a problem with the NAACP and black Miss America then the answer is not for you to be a part of similar organizations for your race.

How about instead of justifying white clubs you talk about wanting to include blacks, Jews, and other minorities in clubs. People with similar interests.

seawulf575's avatar

^I’m not justifying any white clubs. I’m actually saying they don’t exist anymore and that is the right thing. It is time to make the minority-only clubs and other minority-preferential things to go away too.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie If I assigned you every negative I’ve heard about Jews, how would you feel?

@mazinger Correct. Just like black people or asians or any race, there are good people and bad. So dont ever expect me to lower my head like I’m a pos when I’m not. I’ll show you the same respect.

You know when I dated a Vietnamese guy, I heard a few mumbles about me dating a Gook. It pissed me off. When I was goofing around, holding hands with my black guy friend, I heard some more grumbles. My family wasnt like that, or my friends.

I will defend my right to love anyone I want and believe I will defend them to the death against any racist ahole who has something to say. From any group or race or religion.

JLeslie's avatar

^^I haven’t done that to you. What are you talking about? What negative have I assigned you?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@mazinger Know what my black gf did when a racist came to our building? Everyone ran away but not her and not me. We walked straight up to him. She smiled beautifully and got in his face, said How you doing?! He was polite and we went on. He didnt say anything out of line and we sent him on.

Later that same man got cancer. As he knew his life was ending he decided to attempt to slaughter Jews in Overland Park. I know what evil is because Iooked him in the eye.

Someone needs to find the gonads to confront the WS directly or just let it lay, if two girls can do it, surely one of you can.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I don’t know why you think when I talk about seawulf or WSs or even my frustration sometimes with the Christian Right as a political group, why you would ever think I am lumping you in with my criticisms I don’t understand. I don’t think of you that way at all.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie I’m still pissed about the ‘too white to understand’ comment. That one hurt and is very offensive. I’ll get over it but I cant look at you the same since you said it. I would never say you are too Jewish to understand a simple concept.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL Why does it hurt you, the comment has zero to do with you. But, I won’t use the expression anymore, because obviously it’s not good at communicating what I mean and hurts people who I don’t even mean to affect.

I think it’s similar to people calling Mexicans criminals, but not meaning my husband I guess? They don’t direct it at him but it’s hurtful. He takes it on as if it’s directed at all Mexicans because he assumes that person hates Mexicans.

I would have assumed you know I don’t generalize you in with some unempathetic group of people.

Too white doesn’t mean stupid, that’s how you are making it sound. It means lacking the experience to truly understand being in that person’s shoes. I think most women do understand, because women are also minorities.

It’s not being white it’s having power in society and being part of the majority.

I’m white.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie It hurts because, like your husband, we didnt do anything wrong.

So you’re saying that when I want secure borders, it makes your husband feel that I mean him? A legal immigrant? I assure you, and him, that is NOT the case.

The fact is some people are bad, regardless of race. I love Mexico, the land, the people, all the good there is there. That upsets me that he feels that way.

Thank you for explaining. I’m a little emotional today, I must have misunderstood.Heck even @seawulf had to calm me down in PM. Haha

mazingerz88's avatar

I’m thankful to any and all Americans of any color who felt insulted and empathized with Mexicans whenever trump zeroed in on them for political gain. It’s just wrong.

All this fight about the wall or fence or slats and its funding and government shutdown etc. —— isn’t really the point. The point is and I’m ok with the Dems making it clear to trump —- stop demonizing undocumenteds and stop your anti-immigrant agenda. Stop dividing the country.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL When you say you want secure borders it does not make me feel like you are saying anything about my husband. That’s my point. He would feel that way, because it explodes in his head, just like me saying seawulf is too white exploded in yours. Your intention of secure borders has nothing to do with my husband, and my intention of calling seawulf too white has nothing to do with you.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie Ah okay, well I assure you we all know ALL Mexicans are not criminals, even Trump. Maybe not the WS, but they’re crazy.

I have a soft spot for vets like @seawulf. And I’m white, too, I just dont feel that white people cant ‘get it’. Our ancestors got killed over religion, over witchcraft, some of us have the native experience. I think we can all share the human experience of tragedy, which should bring about a more enlightened society. Someday.

chyna's avatar

So I admit I’m from a small state and somewhat sheltered. But I just read an article that just floored me. Sorry I can’t link it, but I’m on my cell phone and I’m not that advanced.
Here’s the story in a nutshell:
A beautiful (IMO) twenty something first year resident at Cleveland Clinic by the name of Lara Kollab has been tweeting vile things against Jewish people for several years. She has called them dogs and has said she will mix up their medications in the hospital. More was said, but anyway they released her from the hospital. She is ruined by her hatred. I honestly don’t get it. Who hates Jewish people? And why?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@chyna We had a whole thread about this pretty recently. It’s actually pretty commonly known prejudice.

seawulf575's avatar

@Chyna if you read the article further, you find she is a Muslim. Many Muslims have that hatred. That’s why the ME is always such a hotbed and why everyone hates Israel.

JLeslie's avatar

I skimmed that link and I can’t help thinking what if it was a doctor in Texas and you replace the word Jews with Mexicans, and Nazis with criminals, and talk about misprescribing to get rid of the immigrants who are freeloading and running drugs? Do we get to fire that doctor too? Or, has it become so commonplace now, with our President using that language and encouraging chanting, that it’s acceptable.

KNOWITALL's avatar

I dont know anyone who would think murdering them is acceptable. I think you are overestimating the number of racists imho. I know many Trump supporters who are very good, kind people. The rally here was overflowing and no violence.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL You miss the point. I’m not talking about the Trump supporters who would never say or think such a thing. You are doing it again. Taking offense by expanding what I’m saying to include all people who like Trump when I never was talking about all of them. I don’t think all Arabs think and talk like this doctor. I’m just talking about the ones who do, and even worse ones that actually make a threat like giving them the wrong medicine.

I have said a zillion times on fluther I have friends who support Trump who I would never call racist, and I know they have good hearts and want the best for our country.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie I’m out. You’re too sensitive about this.Scolding me for misunderstanding your point is rude. Bye.

JLeslie's avatar

I’m too sensitive? I’m ready to be out also. Good call.

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