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JLeslie's avatar

Do you think photos of immigrant children crying, on floors, dead at the side of a river are going to change minds about immigration?

Asked by JLeslie (57314points) 3 weeks ago from iPhone

What will work to change minds?

People who feel strongly the immigrants are taking unnecessary risks I don’t think are moved by these photos.

I can probably go to almost any airport and find a kid lying or sitting on the floor. I can find you a photo of an American drowning in a flash flood because they just didn’t stay home during a major rainstorm. Children cry when they are tired or upset, and that’s even when they have overall a cushy comfortable life. Children “watch” their younger siblings all of the time.

Separating children did touch some of the people who want to send everyone home, because they put themselves in the place of the immigrants having their children taken away, but these other photos I think nay sayers just say, “I would never do that.” They don’t identify with the immigrants at all.

What will help them have more empathy? Will reports from the home countries help? Video of life in those other countries? Video of why they think the journey will be ok, and they take the risks. I don’t think a still photo does much of anything, but I don’t know the answer.

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46 Answers

elbanditoroso's avatar

No, it won’t change minds at all.

The Trumpists and immigration hawks will say “this is great – this is what should happen to all of them”. The humanists will say “this is awful”.

So no minds will change.

Repeat this over and over: This situation is all Trump’s responsibility and a results of his asinine policies

JLeslie's avatar

@elbanditoroso Which policies? You mean Trump’s policies with the home country of the immigrants?

elbanditoroso's avatar

Yes, but not only that. His strategies are flawed all the way from Guatemala and El Salvador all the way up to the concentration camps in Texas.

JLeslie's avatar

@elbanditoroso Won’t people just say we have had bad policies for years? What specifically is he doing differently in Guatemala or El Salvador, I’m afraid I don’t know these details. I’m always in favor of making living conditions better for people where they are.

elbanditoroso's avatar

What Trump did was to reverse (cancel) the funding that we had sent to the Latin/South American countries to increase safety and standard of living there. He stopped sending law enforcement money to El Slavador to ‘punish’ them. So El Salvador got even more dangerous than it had before, and more people left.

Obama did (and continued) to send money to improve the situation in latin America. It was not 100% effective, but it was helpful. Trump cut it off altogether. link

jca2's avatar

The cop at my job told me when you get arrested, your kid doesn’t go with you to the jail cell. That’s why when people are detained by ICE, the kids are separated from the parents.

Someone else in my family is a big Trump supporter. He feels that these immigrants shouldn’t leave their homeland, and if they do, and they come here, it’s fair game whatever happens to them. He feels that if we make it too cushy for them, more will come. Borders shouldn’t be open because we don’t want sick people or criminals. If borders were open, we’d have many more millions coming than we have already. He feels that there has been strife and conflict all over the world forever, and just because you live in an area where there’s conflict or scarce resources doesn’t mean the US should take you in, you should stay and try to make things better in your homeland.

These are not my personal opinions so please don’t get upset with me that I posted them.

JLeslie's avatar

@jca2 Funny, I use that argument about strife happening throughout time as a reason that we should be empathetic to people who are migrating. Maybe that’s another piece of useful information I didn’t realize, that my using that as a persuasive argument is actually counterproductive. I feel like most of our families came here because of difficulties in their home countries, and I don’t understand how Americans don’t understand that desire to escape bad conditions, and even to specifically want to come to America. I just assume those people who don’t get it don’t have any stories in their family of being oppressed or starving or something? I don’t know why they are so unable to empathize. They can’t imagine leaving their own country for another.

I think probably if it is very cushy and easy that more will come, but the alternative is what? Being inhumane? That’s not ok. I think the conditions in detention vary from center to center, and overall it probably is better than what they were dealing with during their walk to get to the detention centers, but we have to do something to accommodate people better, just my opinion. The whole thing about the sick and criminals is so upsetting to me as you know. I hate that terminology they use to characterize the immigrants.

I read that some of these places are private, like private jails, so I am assuming that means they make money the more people that are there. I haven’t read anything much about that. I have to wonder if it is just another racket? That the overcrowding and delays actually have some people making a lot of money.

Demosthenes's avatar

Do photos of aborted fetuses change people’s minds about abortion? I think we know the answer to that question.

I think it’s possible for some people to change their minds about this issue if they were to know their stories more intimately (their motives for coming here, the risks involved) and see these people as fellow human beings, but the hardliners will just say that they got themselves into this terrible situation willingly and there won’t be much sympathy for them when things go badly for them.

kritiper's avatar

It’s not about changing minds, or minds at all. It’s about resources. Everybody cares, but there is only so much that can be done about the human tsunami at our southern border.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Not one bit. The wulf for example tells us that it is the parents of these children who are the real monsters for dragging the kids here. The story goes that it isn’t our fault
the system is overwhelmed by the numbers. The Democrats won’t give Trump the money required to treat the kids properly.

chyna's avatar

I don’t know how Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, etc., have not heard about this and loaded up a plane full of soap, water, toothpaste, tooth brushes, cots, whatever is needed.
Or anyone in Congress for that matter. Perhaps the parents are to blame, but babies and children should not have to be tortured because of it.

stanleybmanly's avatar

What should disturb us more is the fact that the hell depicted in the pictures is a picnic compared to whatever propels them here.

KNOWITALL's avatar

Frankly, I think pieces like this would change more conservative minds, or at least cause them to think about it in different terms. While I still don’t agree with illegal immigration, this evoked my time there, the wonderful people, the ones living in the jungle with no electricity, etc… It invoked a positive, not a negative.

‘Americans love Mexican food. We consume nachos, tacos, burritos, tortas, enchiladas, tamales and anything resembling Mexican in enormous quantities. We love Mexican beverages, happily knocking back huge amounts of tequila, mezcal and Mexican beer every year. We love Mexican people—as we sure employ a lot of them. Despite our ridiculously hypocritical attitudes towards immigration, we demand that Mexicans cook a large percentage of the food we eat, grow the ingredients we need to make that food, clean our houses, mow our lawns, wash our dishes, look after our children. As any chef will tell you, our entire service economy—the restaurant business as we know it—in most American cities, would collapse overnight without Mexican workers. Some, of course, like to claim that Mexicans are “stealing American jobs”. But in two decades as a chef and employer, I never had ONE American kid walk in my door and apply for a dishwashing job, a porter’s position—or even a job as prep cook. Mexicans do much of the work in this country that Americans, provably, simply won’t do.

We love Mexican drugs. Maybe not you personally, but “we”, as a nation, certainly consume titanic amounts of them—and go to extraordinary lengths and expense to acquire them. We love Mexican music, Mexican beaches, Mexican architecture, interior design, Mexican films.

So, why don’t we love Mexico?

We throw up our hands and shrug at what happens and what is happening just across the border. Maybe we are embarrassed. Mexico, after all, has always been there for us, to service our darkest needs and desires. Whether it’s dress up like fools and get pass-out drunk and sun burned on Spring break in Cancun, throw pesos at strippers in Tijuana, or get toasted on Mexican drugs, we are seldom on our best behavior in Mexico. They have seen many of us at our worst. They know our darkest desires.

image
In the service of our appetites, we spend billions and billions of dollars each year on Mexican drugs—while at the same time spending billions and billions more trying to prevent those drugs from reaching us. The effect on our society is everywhere to be seen. Whether it’s kids nodding off and overdosing in small town Vermont, gang violence in LA, burned out neighborhoods in Detroit— it’s there to see. What we don’t see, however, haven’t really noticed, and don’t seem to much care about, is the 80,000 dead—mostly innocent victims in Mexico, just in the past few years. 80,000 dead. 80,000 families who’ve been touched directly by the so-called “War On Drugs”.

Mexico. Our brother from another mother. A country, with whom, like it or not, we are inexorably, deeply involved, in a close but often uncomfortable embrace. Look at it. It’s beautiful. It has some of the most ravishingly beautiful beaches on earth. Mountains, desert, jungle. Beautiful colonial architecture, a tragic, elegant, violent, ludicrous, heroic, lamentable, heartbreaking history. Mexican wine country rivals Tuscany for gorgeousness. Its archeological sites—the remnants of great empires, unrivaled anywhere. And as much as we think we know and love it, we have barely scratched the surface of what Mexican food really is. It is NOT melted cheese over a tortilla chip. It is not simple, or easy. It is not simply ‘bro food’ halftime. It is in fact, old– older even than the great cuisines of Europe and often deeply complex, refined, subtle, and sophisticated. A true mole sauce, for instance, can take DAYS to make, a balance of freshly (always fresh) ingredients, painstakingly prepared by hand. It could be, should be, one of the most exciting cuisines on the planet. If we paid attention. The old school cooks of Oaxaca make some of the more difficult to make and nuanced sauces in gastronomy. And some of the new generation, many of whom have trained in the kitchens of America and Europe have returned home to take Mexican food to new and thrilling new heights.

image
It’s a country I feel particularly attached to and grateful for. In nearly 30 years of cooking professionally, just about every time I walked into a new kitchen, it was a Mexican guy who looked after me, had my back, showed me what was what, was there—and on the case—when the cooks more like me, with backgrounds like mine—ran away to go skiing or surfing—or simply “flaked.” I have been fortunate to track where some of those cooks come from, to go back home with them. To small towns populated mostly by women—where in the evening, families gather at the town’s phone kiosk, waiting for calls from their husbands, sons and brothers who have left to work in our kitchens in the cities of the North. I have been fortunate enough to see where that affinity for cooking comes from, to experience moms and grandmothers preparing many delicious things, with pride and real love, passing that food made by hand, passed from their hands to mine.

In years of making television in Mexico, it’s one of the places we, as a crew, are happiest when the day’s work is over. We’ll gather round a street stall and order soft tacos with fresh, bright, delicious tasting salsas—drink cold Mexican beer, sip smoky mezcals, listen with moist eyes to sentimental songs from street musicians. We will look around and remark, for the hundredth time, what an extraordinary place this is.

The received wisdom is that Mexico will never change. That is hopelessly corrupt, from top to bottom. That it is useless to resist—to care, to hope for a happier future. But there are heroes out there who refuse to go along. On this episode of PARTS UNKNOWN, we meet a few of them. People who are standing up against overwhelming odds, demanding accountability, demanding change—at great, even horrifying personal cost.
This show is for them.”

MAY 3 2014 | 21939 NOTES – READ MORE →
https://anthonybourdain.tumblr.com/post/84641290831/under-the-volcano

Dutchess_III's avatar

No. We are losing our soul. I mean, if 20 murdered children at Sandy Hook didn’t change a thing, why would one brown guy and his brown kid drowning change anything?

Dutchess_III's avatar

@chyna, allegedly border patrol is refusing donations.

kritiper's avatar

@Dutchess_III How is Sandy Hook like what’s happening at our southern border?

Dutchess_III's avatar

The question was “Do you think photos of immigrant children crying, on floors, dead at the side of a river are going to change minds about immigration?”
If the image of 20 dead elementary school children didn’t change anything about the gun problem in American, why would one dead man and one dead child change anything about immigration? The image of that poor Syrian boy who drowned in the ocean and washed up on shore didn’t change anything.
We have sold our soul.

kritiper's avatar

You assume that guns are a problem in America. I have no problem with them.

Dutchess_III's avatar

No, I assume the lax gun laws are the problems.

Jaxk's avatar

Empathy is not the problem. Everyone agrees that we have a problem on our southern border. How do we fix it? That’s where we disagree. If the journey is dangerous How does anyone justify encouraging others to make it. Our system for immigration is overwhelmed we can’t keep up. Congress needs to take action to solve this. Trump didn’t create this problem and is pushing hard to solve it but there is little hope with divisions in Washington of producing any reasonable fix. Continuing to call each other names hasn’t produced any resolution nor will it in the future.

Dutchess_III's avatar

“How does anyone justify encouraging others to make it. ” THAT is the real question. They justify it because they WILL DIE if they stay where they are. If they make it, it might mean a better world.
Trump sure as hell causes the separation of families at the border because he’s a heartless, cruel despot who is somehow making money off of it all.
Other people are too. According to Forbes “One In Six Migrant Children In The U.S. Are Staying At A Shelter Operated By A Private Equity Tycoon.”
I also heard it costs $750 a DAY per child! How can it cost that much?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Jaxk Most Dems blame Trump because of the Zero Tolerance policy.

Sure, the system has been broken a long time, Obama acknowledged it and almost took it on but decided instead on healthcare.

Definately should be a bipartisan issue-like the 9/11 treatment, but I think some Dems see cons as ‘just not wanting brown people here”, which isn’t true. And Reps have a hard time thinking adding MORE people to a broken system will fix it for anyone.

I’d be surprised is some young Dem candidate for 2020 doesn’t make immigration their platform.

jca2's avatar

@Dutchess_III: Probably they’re figuring $750 per day by taking the cost of food, the facilities, the salaries including benefits for all of the staff (medical staff, social workers, Immigration, Customs, administrative) and dividing it up by the number of people that they serve.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I understand operating costs, but that number is still absurd. Utterly absurd.
This source says over 14,000 people a day — and sometimes as many as 18,000.
But lets go with the smallest figure of 2000. That is $1,500,000 a DAY! And the kids aren’t getting beds or blankets or soap and only shitty food.
Someone is making a killing on this, on the backs of these helpless children.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Jesus. Trump’s pick for Border Patrol Chief said said he can tell which of the migrant children will become gang members by the look in their eye.

JLeslie's avatar

$750 a day does seem absurdly high to me. It’s basically dorms with some trained officials watching over things. There is rarely any sort of fighting in these places. It’s not like a jail with hardened criminals. They don’t need 1 “guard” per 10 people or anything. I just looked up dorm prices at my university and it’s $5k a semester, so let’s say $60 a day. Even if you add a guard per ten people, and toothbrush, sheets, blanket, laundry, it’s not anywhere close to $750.

More and more sounding like a racket.

Yellowdog's avatar

You might want to hear what Mark Morgan actually says rather than what CNN says he said.

No one is making money off anything at the southern border. The Democrats in congress have withheld humantarian aid at the border. When the Trump administration ordered funds to be spent and beds ordered from Wayfair, AOC and others have called a boycott of Wayfair and walkout of Wayfair employees for their doing business with the Trump administration for shelters.

Why? The only reason is, they need chaos at the border. Something to blame the Trump administration for.

If you want to hear for yourself what Mark Morgan says on Tucker Carlson, you need to watch Tucker Carlson for yourself. ICE agents AND the border patrol are providing for these families, the children, and other migrants out of their own pockets because congress refuses the funding.

Remember, @Dutchess_III it wasn’t that long ago when your sources were telling you that there was nothing unusual at the border, and that the border crossings were at an all-time low.

And you are right to be skeptical about $750 a day being spent on each child per day. With the sheer nimber of children in a cumulative budget of $750 per child per day, You could operate Spain, Italy, or Portugal on that—and the border patrol has been calling out the dire need for minimum funding for expenses since December or January. You need better sources than CNN

Dutchess_III's avatar

Immigration IS at an all time low.
Forbes

USA Today

CNBC.

But trump’s separation of families policy has created an unprecedented crises. We’re going to be paying out in lawsuits for a loooong time to come.

Yellowdog's avatar

4,000 apprehended crossing the border a day is 4x what a bad day was in 2012.

There can be no lawsuits, either, if policy in place is the law and people are willingly breaking it. The laws maybe could be changed, but breaking a law does not give you any leverage to pursue litigation.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Proof @Yellowdog. Proof. Prove it.

Jaxk's avatar

So, I see nobody likes the cost of food, clothing, and housing, not to mention medical care. The numbers are all over the place on these cost so I wouldn’t pick that number as gospel. Frankly medical care alone could cost more than that. The solution is to stop the flood.

Dutchess_III's avatar

We CAN’T stop it!! The vast majority that come here don’t come over the border. They come in airplanes.
And a wall wouldn’t do shit to stop them crossing over.

Jaxk's avatar

If they are over staying their visa, we aren’t housing them. Focus Dutchess.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

Oh so your concern is with housing?

MrGrimm888's avatar

My understanding is that many are indeed over staying their visas. That’s them breaking an agreement. But… I think it would be foolish to say that the rhetoric from the right, isn’t keeping lots from going to their hearings… To hear the right tell it, none of them belong, and should be thrown out ASAP…

In fairness, we don’t deport citizens who fail to show up to court. I don’t hear the right calling for those people to be deported. And most of them, are actually criminals….

mazingerz88's avatar

It’s big business for private owners of those detention facilities. Say 200 bucks a day for one detainee for a big facility which houses 2 thousand. 400K a day!

( I think I read once that kids cost 500–700 bucks a day? )

Hardly surprising that even John Kelly himself is raking money now that he is involved in detainee business. And not to mention big American banks. Last thing I heard, a few big banks got out after being called out.

Years upon years of this detainee business already. The owners of these privately owned detention centers are hundreds of millions richer by now, if not billionaires.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

@mazingerz88… They said it’s $750 a day.

MrGrimm888's avatar

That’s interesting, because we all know it’d be cheaper to use government aid, until most got on their feet…

Yellowdog's avatar

Government Aid and funding for more beds and better space is denied by congress.

I am glad that some of you are starting to notice the shortfalls in logic—but until you stop your obsession with blaming and hating Trump, and look at who is actually blocking aid and trying to leave the crises of chaos—it will never get any better.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

WTH are you talking about? More phrases and words you memorized from the Dems with NO clue what they mean?

Yellowdog's avatar

What was parroted from the Democrats?

MrGrimm888's avatar

@Yellowdog . I meant getting them on their feet, after becoming US citizens. Can’t vet people for citizenship, when you try to stop them before they reach the border. Trump is doing everything within his power to stop them from their legal right, to request asylum. From tariffs on Mexico, to removal of aid from central Americancountries who can’t stop their citizens from fleeing. And, of course, he’s dumb enough to think a wall would stop more….

Dutchess_III's avatar

That is something so many pro hate people forget, is that they have a legal right to request asylum. Let us at least give them the chance.
Jesus would.
I wonder if they’d let me volunteer at some of those holding stations….

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