General Question

elbanditoroso's avatar

Are there parallels between ISIS and the white nationalist terrorists in the US?

Asked by elbanditoroso (26115points) 2 weeks ago

Remember a couple years ago ISIS was doing random mass killings all over Syria and western Iraq, in an attempt to put their idea of a pure Islamic caliphate in place? The idea was pure islamic life according to their rules.

Any parallels with the white nationalists that are terrorizing the US? They want to put their plans for white racial purity in place, and in order to do so, they’ll do random mass killings anywhere to make their point.

Remember too that ISIS didn’t have a lot of central coordination – there were lots of free lancers. Same with the white nationalist terrorists here in the US.

So, how do the white nationalists differ from ISIS?

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61 Answers

ragingloli's avatar

Obviously.

Yellowdog's avatar

Islamic Terror is sponsored primarily by Iran, which was largely an Obama ‘most favored’ nation. White Nationalists largely arose in opposition to Obama’s propagation against law enforcement. So Obama might be the common denominator.

I don’t recall a lot of mass shootings in the U.S. being driven by white nationalists. The church in Charleston, SC was an exception, with Dylann Roof. You may find whatever answer you are looking for with Dylann Roof who actually is/was a white supremacist.

ragingloli's avatar

@Yellowdog
And that is why no one takes you seriously.

Yellowdog's avatar

If I told you the truth, you would cry. The truth touches people deeply. Or makes them finally break down and admit it. A lie is deceptive. So it is best to be not serious.

Some say reality itself is a lie. The truth is out there, but our brains filter it out because we couldn’t cope with the horrors, the darkness of the cosmos and despair that burns to the pith and core of the stars themselves. Things are not what they seem and far more terrifying.

You are only experiencing what they WANT you to perceive. They want to spread chaos and discord because they feed on pain and strife and negative energies. Hey, I think that sounds like something you’d hear on television.

kritiper's avatar

“White nationalist terrorists?” Do you mean the Republican Party??

Demosthenes's avatar

If so, ISIS was a lot better at what they did. Yeah, they lost, but they controlled a large part of Iraq and Syria for a while.

Sure there are some parallels, but they are minimal. ISIS was fighting in an already war-torn area, taking advantage of people living under a dictatorship (Syria) or living in an unstable quasi-nation (Iraq). When things get that bad here and white supremacists start gathering a larger following in the midst of a civil war, then we can talk parallels.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

Yes there are but it’s like comparing a puddle to an ocean. These white nationalists are not there in numbers or in actions like Islamic fundamentalists. The threat from white nationalists is mostly manufactured IMO, to the point that they are a bigger problem than they were before (which still is not much)

Yellowdog's avatar

Mass shooters in the U,S, usually work alone. Not many ties to white nationalism or white supremacy, If you want to make a case that white nationalists are responsible for mass shootings, Dylann Roof is the case in point you might want to make.

rebbel's avatar

@ragingloli You and your facts…...

seawulf575's avatar

I guess the first question that needs to be answered is “What White Nationalist terror groups?”

rebbel's avatar

The moderate White Nationalists?

Yellowdog's avatar

@ragingloli I read your article, and it conflates antisemitism with “far right extremism.”

The Trump base, like the Ronald Reagan base, are not antisemitic,

Today, we have congress members quoting The Protocalsof the Elders of Zion (Ilhan Omar saying that the Jews have hypnotized the world), I have never seen the Trump or Reagan base making such proclamations.

Isolated, Klan-inspired enclaves cannot be conflated with the political right. The only thing they have in common is resistance to Islam and flooding the country with illegal immigrants.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Yellowdog

This is why nobody takes you seriously – you continually spout shit that simply has no correlation to reality.

For example: do you even understand what “most favored nation” status means? It has to do with trade. Iran is not a “most favored nation”. In fact it’s been under heavy embargo by the United States for decades. That is the opposite of “most favored nation”. And if you think that white nationalists just arose in reaction to Obama (not that that’s any kind of justification either), you are gravely mistaken. White nationalism has been around for a century and a half. Sure, they had been driven largely into the woodwork in recent decades, but they’ve been emboldened by that race-baiting jackass currently befouling the Oval Office.

ragingloli's avatar

@Yellowdog
I will take the word of a Jewish organisation over yours, thanks.

seawulf575's avatar

@Darth_Algar I find it funny how you spew hatred like that. White nationalists were around for a century and a half. At least most of that time they were solid Democrats. Even today, it is the Dems that are spewing racial hatred and doing 100% of the race baiting. Yes, I know…you believe Trump does the race baiting…but look at reality. Who are the ones that always pull out the race card? Who calls for violent protests against any conservative group and claims anti-racism is part of their justification? Who actually tries to stir up racial hatred in the inner city areas? It isn’t Trump…it is the Dems and the liberal media…100% of the time. For example, Trump recently tweeted that Baltimore was a rat infested place and the left started screaming that it was racist. How you get racism from that is beyond me. But every liberal talking head around picked up the cry. Apparently “infested” seems to imply blacks, even though the actual description is “rat infested” which actually implies rodents. Meanwhile, Elijah Cummings saying that his district was drug infested is entirely ignored…that’s not racist. When Bernie Sanders says Baltimore is a disgrace, worse than N Korea, that isn’t racist either. But because a conservative says something about the city, it’s suddenly racist and becomes part of the basis for you claim Trump is a race-baiter.

seawulf575's avatar

Oh! and here’s a fact check for the article @ragingloli cited

https://thelibertarianrepublic.com/fact-check-far-right-largely-responsible-extremist-violence/

When they include any violence where the perpetrator could possibly be traced back to a right wing extremist group, whether the violence was ideological or not, the ADL is padding statistics. It also ignores many other data points that may or may not play into their conclusions.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 I can’t even deal with reading one more right winger try to say the Democrats of the Dixiecrat era are the same Democrats of today. Give it up. Those Democrats are Republicans now. Please stop. I’m not saying all Republicans are racist, but the WSs definitely are not Democrats. You say the Democrats bring out the race card too fast, I would agree some of them do. It’s not the whole party though. So what? As a Democrat I am perfectly willing to say that I don’t want to be associated with Antifa, I reject their violence, why the hell don’t you reject the KKK, NeoNazis, and other WS groups in your political party? They are Republicans! If they aren’t registered Republicans, they are still voting Republicans into office. They certainly are not voting for Democrats.

@Yellowdog I do think Obama’s presidency heightened the stir among the WS’s. Then, Trump, seized on it, and has given them a lot of fuel for the fire. There is a huge difference between the two presidents though. Obama was not trying to cater to the crazy WS’s, but Trump does. He cares about their vote, and uses language that entices them. Once in a blue moon he says things against hate and racism, but mostly he’s fine with riling them up. Obama, simply was a black man. Just him existing pisses of the WS. That’s the very definition of racism in my mind. I can’t help but think of how I felt in Germany during a vacation there in my teens. I was in the hotel bed, and I thought to myself, just 40 years before they would have come into my room and shot me dead or had me board a train to my death or torture just for existing.

That whole thing about Iran is religious right BS. You don’t have to agree with the deal made with Iran, but to think Obama was somehow in bed with Iran makes no sense. When I lived in Memphis I knew more than one person who believed Obama was Muslim, and against Israel. The news outlets kept saying Muslim was code for black, like being a bigot against Muslims was more acceptable than be a racist against black people. I kept telling people, “no, these people really believe he’s Muslim, and some sort of spy helping our enemies.” I don’t believe any of that BS for a second, and I’m a little surprised you do.

Demosthenes's avatar

@JLeslie I’m so sick of that argument too. It’s absolutely asinine, it shows a complete lack of understanding of history, and worse it’s more “sports team politics” bullshit. Guess those laissez-faire Democrats of the turn of the 20th century are the same as the “Democratic socialists” of today according to this “logic”.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie if you read my statement I didn’t say the Democrats of today are the same as the Dixiecrats of yesteryear. But I did throw the bullshit flag on the statement that WS have been around for a century and a half with the inference that they are the same either. My statement was that while WS have been around for a century and a half, at least most of that time they were solid Dems. That is historical fact. If you want to slam me for my analogy, I suggest you also slam @Darth_Algar for his.

seawulf575's avatar

Also, @JLeslie I have rejected the KKK and the NeoNazis and any other WS groups. I have rejected them many times on these pages. And you know what the result has been? Fools on the left continue to accuse me of being a WS….because I am white. So talk to your racist brothers and sisters about that as well.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 Ok, why do you bring up WS’s being Democrats?

elbanditoroso's avatar

@JLeslie – deflection. It’s a tried-and-true method of @seawulf575 – he consistently tries to change the subject to avoid culpability in answering a reasonable question.

The thing is, once he plays the deflection game, it is as if he is running up the white flag of surrender – he has no good answer to the actual question. So he’ll do anything to get you talking about something else.

Don’t play that game.

Darth_Algar's avatar

For the record, and for future reference, I no longer pay any attention whatsoever to @seawulf575. Deflection and whataboutism are all he brings to any conversation. It’s beyond tiresome and is not worthy of my time or consideration.

Yellowdog's avatar

I don’t think @seawulf575 cares what you think or read.

The important thing is that the rebuttlal is there for others to read, who have probably never heard an opposing opinion or viewpoint to yours.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

ISIS and white nationalists are conservatives. They’re on the same team, trying to drag us all back into the Dark Ages.

Yellowdog's avatar

That, of course, doesn’t need rebuttal. It stands for itself.

elbanditoroso's avatar

@Yellowdog then why did you comment?

Demosthenes's avatar

@seawulf575 The fact that they were Dems doesn’t matter though. Why do you think it matters? The Dems of today aren’t the Dems of the past. The Repubs of today aren’t the Repubs of the past. We are talking about the present day, not the past. You of all people seem like you would support this idea given your opposition to reparations (which I also oppose), which rely on the same kind of “the past is the present” logic. The Repubs used to be more progressive, even spawning the progressive party in the early 20th century. I guess every time progressivism is attacked by Republicans, I’ll be sure to say “Republicans used to be progressive”. Except that would be a completely irrelevant point to make given how different the parties were in the past.

Yellowdog's avatar

@elbanditoroso my comment wasn’t a rebuttal.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Why not compare the Christians of the crusades, to the Christian population of today? Facts, are fun huh?

seawulf575's avatar

I brought it up because @Darth_Algar made the comment about white nationalists and implied they had been around for a century and a half and are only emboldened by Trump. This would imply they are, and always have been, Republicans. So I corrected that and pointed out that they started as, and remained, Democrats for most of that century and a half. That is not a deflection, it is not a change of topic, it correcting the bullshit from one of the leftist tools. And as I said in one of my last posts, I didn’t say that WS were Democrats. That was bullshit that you and @Demosthenes tried to read into it. But again…HISTORICAL FACT: Many of those groups started as Democrats. In fact it was the Republicans that fought to change the white supremacist attitudes of the Democrats.
And if you listened to Trump’s speech today, he totally renounces White Supremacists….AGAIN. Not that you fools on the left will ever give him any credit. And you cannot see that most of the “rhetoric” he uses is actually misinterpreted by a liberal media and then broadcast as the lie it is. Look at how you tools on the left tried twisting “a disgusting rat and rodent infested mess” into a racist remark. He was giving a physical description of most of the city of Baltimore…a description that others have made and that most of the people that live in those bad areas agree with. But because the left wants to paint it as racist rhetoric, you idiots go along with it. So tell me, when are you tools on the left finally going to renounce the lies from the media?

seawulf575's avatar

@Demosthenes Again, you have no clue as to how I think. But you have no problem attributing some idea to me. Reparations…I absolutely do think it is an idiotic idea. Not because that was then and this is now, but because it is an idiotic idea. It totally negates everything that happened along the way. We made people slaves. Fact. We also fought one of our bloodiest wars of our history to free them. Fact. And many, many white people fought and died in that war. Fact. And many of the ancestors of the slaves have gone on to become great people. Fact. So reparations are supposed to what…make up for someone being enslaved? And this is where the idiocy starts….it is where I start going into the questions. How do we know who are actually descendants of the slaves? How do we know that some black person didn’t have ancestors that actually came to this country after the Civil War? And what about all those white people that died trying to put an end to slavery? Do we give reparations to them as well? The questions just build on themselves and in the end, it becomes an idiotic mess….just another tool the Dems want to use to buy votes and waste money. THAT is my opinion on reparations.
You want to institute reparations? Okay…these idiots that went on shooting sprees this past weekend…One is dead, so he got off easy. I suggest that after the trial, we take the other and put him to death by harvesting all his organs. Death by organ donation. Let his organs go on to help people that really need help. THAT is reparations…he gives up his life to help others to live.

Demosthenes's avatar

@seawulf575 Yes, this is exactly why I too think reparations are idiotic. I’m not sure why you are so hot and bothered. I was simply pointing out that the Democrats of today are not the same as the Democrats of the past, nor are the Republicans, so pointing out that white supremacists were once Democrats is really completely fucking irrelevant to anything at hand. Yet you keep bringing it up like it actually means something, but it means absolutely fucking nothing. Saying “white nationalists are emboldened by Trump” does not imply “white nationalists have always been republicans”, where does that come from? There is no logic there whatsoever.

And I think I have some clue as to how you think. I am very rarely wrong about you. The fact that I agree with you sometimes as on the reparations issue is what makes talking to you so incredibly frustrating.

Yellowdog's avatar

Demographically, there is no correlation between white nationalists and Trump supporters.

elbanditoroso's avatar

@Yellowdog another unsupported assertion. Show me the numbers.

I have learned that most of what you say is factually wrong. So if you are going to assert that there is no correlation, show me your source. Otherwise I cannot believe you.

Yellowdog's avatar

The manifestos of the mass shooters and those who seek to start ‘race wars’ reveal that politically they are all over the spectrum.

Instead of using this to gain political points, consider the following common traits:

(1) Mental Illness
(2) Isolation— they feel ostracized, friendless, or not part of a dominant society.
(3) Envy or a sense that they haven’t got what others have, as seen on FACEBOOK or just . seeing everyone get theirs on a silver platter,
—- or they’ve been fired—probably because of their odd behaviour.
(4) They leave Manafestos since the Unibomber. They want their feelings, figurings, to be KNOWN long after the infamous nationwide-reported horrific act takes place,
(5) They still have ‘growing pains’ compounded by their isolation and failures.

When Racism is involved, it is because their racial identity makes them feel important and ltheir opportunity to be part of a tight and supreme class, Others are not important. The dominant, superior race can rid the inferior ones.

Trump supporters, in contrast, feel they ARE a part of something. And are fairly mainstream Americana. The political LEFT are the ones trying to make other classes of demographics feel isolated and victimized.

seawulf575's avatar

@Demosthenes I have explained twice now why I brought up the history of White Supremacy in this country. Apparently you refuse to acknowledge that one of your liberal buds actually tried dropping the idea that they have been Republicans all along. I can show you the stupidity, but I can’t make you recognize it.
And you were 100% wrong about me. Or maybe you are just hoping I was the bad guy you expected. “You of all people seem like you would support this idea given your opposition to reparations (which I also oppose), which rely on the same kind of “the past is the present” logic. ” I have shown you that is not my logic at all. I do disagree with reparations and have stated that many times before so I gave you that. My reasoning, which I have also explained repeated in other threads, you entirely ignored. You have attributed some “logic” to me that isn’t mine, but helps your argument today. Nice try. Need to try again with facts this time.

MrGrimm888's avatar

So, by that logic, current Christians, are the same as the ones who slaughtered men, women, and children, during the crusades. Point taken…

Yellowdog's avatar

You mean when they freed Jerusalem/Israel from Islamic terrorist and slavers ?

Don’t think they were ,much in the business of slaughtering men, women, or children.

Are you saying King Richard the Lionhearted did these things?

MrGrimm888's avatar

Lol. They were people. They committed genocide, on a scale that seems hard to do, given their technology. I stand by my analogy, as it seems perfect for this debate.
Dems were racist 50 years ago. But it is irrelevant that Christians murdered millions… Ok….

Response moderated (Personal Attack)
Yellowdog's avatar

My God, learn your history of what the Crusades were for.

To stop Islamic killings and slavers who were in control of the Holy Land.

Demosthenes's avatar

Yes, by this logic the Inquisitors and modern day evangelicals are one and the same. Democrats are Democrats, Christians are Christians. History and context don’t matter.

@Yellowdog The Crusades were an attempt to end the in-fighting among European Christians as much as they were to stop an Islamic threat to pilgrims, one that had long passed by the time the first Crusaders arrived. The threat nonetheless that initially called them there was mainly the encroachment of the Turks on Alexios Komnenos’ dwindling Byzantine Empire, which was spun into a cause to capture the Holy Land by Urban II.

MrGrimm888's avatar

What were the Crusades for , @Yellowdog ? Please. Enlighten me? Just good, versus evil?

Yellowdog's avatar

They were fighting for the oil.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Oil? Before there was even a use for it? Seriously?

Demosthenes's avatar

I’m guessing that was a joke :)

MrGrimm888's avatar

I assumed so. But, it doesn’t substitute a real answer.

Response moderated
Response moderated
Yellowdog's avatar

The answer was given in the previous three posts, @MrGrimm888 when you asked me to ‘educate’ you.

But since you missed it three times, here it goes again. Islam controlled the Holy Land and were enslaving and killing Christians, Jews, and other pilgrims to the Holy Land. The Crusades were sent to liberate the Holy Land. They did not kill women and children.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^From what I’ve read about the crusades. Yes. They killed women, and children. You don’t have to be proud of it, but denying it, is not helpful.

Yellowdog's avatar

How do you know they weren’t little devils and wicked witch of the westers?

Darth_Algar's avatar

Sure, the Crusaders “liberated” the Holy Land. Then that wasn’t enough, so sometimes they turned their swords on who Christians who were the wrong brand of Christian. Then they turned their swords on the Jews, then pagans. And they pretty much raped and pillaged their whole way. And a particularly nice event was the “Children’s Crusade” – in which a lot of children are told they’ll be taken to the Holy Land to preach to and peaceably convert Muslims, only to instead by taken and sold into slavery.

@Yellowdog

I get it. You want to stick up for your club. That’s fine. But you ignore that Christians are just as human as anyone else and like any other group of humans have done some atrocious shit throughout the ages.

Yellowdog's avatar

The Children’s Crusade, led by a St Nicholas somebody—were just going to visit the birthplace of Jesus. The Muslims killed the adults and sold the children into slavery and prostitution.

Yes, we could simply avoid the Holy Land. But the Crusaders were to liberate the land for Christians and Jews and peaceable Muslims.

elbanditoroso's avatar

Wait – are you actually making excuses for the El Paso and Dayton shooters because the Moslems controlled the Middle East 700 years ago?

Yellowdog's avatar

I fail to see the connection—at all.

Darth_Algar's avatar

Yes, yes. We all know how kind Christians have been to Jews over the centuries. Do you just simply flat-out refuse to even consider anything that runs contrary to the worldview you want to believe in?

Yellowdog's avatar

I don’t deny the atrocities committed against Jews by Christians from the first or second century well into the twentieth.

There have been times where Christians, Muslims, Jews—have co-existed.

But I fail to see what pilgrimage to the Holy Land in the time of the Crusades has to do with Walmart shooters in El Paso and Dayton.

Darth_Algar's avatar

“But I fail to see what pilgrimage to the Holy Land in the time of the Crusades has to do with Walmart shooters in El Paso and Dayton.”

Which hasn’t at all been part of my argument.

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