General Question

Caravanfan's avatar

Who is lying, Warren or Sanders?

Asked by Caravanfan (6290points) 5 days ago

In case you are not aware of the latest progressive candidate kerfuffle, Warren states that Sanders allegedly told her that a woman can’t win the presidency. Sanders denies. One of them is lying. Who do you think it is?

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57 Answers

cookieman's avatar

Both of them. They’re politicians. Also, you’re two topics are redundant.

Caravanfan's avatar

@cookieman Your answer made me grin.

gorillapaws's avatar

Bernie is ahead in the polls, he’s honest (arguably to a fault), has supported women his entire career. He has said that women can be president, encouraged girls to run for president and even encouraged Warren to run in 2015, only entering the race after she declined. I certainly think it’s possible that Bernie expressed concerns that Trump would weaponize gender in a general election, but that’s not the same as saying that it’s impossible for a woman to ever win. Warren has a history of being loose with the facts. The way the story broke also raises suspicion, it’s being leaked anonymously by Warren’s staff who weren’t present.

This manufactured “scandal” reeks of the establishment trying to sabotage progressive candidates. That includes CNN (which is owned by AT&T) and the Democratic establishment.

Caravanfan's avatar

@gorillapaws Actually, I agree with you in that Bernie probably was just being loose with his words and Warren is using it against him. As you know, I’m not a fan of either candidate, but I’m in Bernie’s camp on this one.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

Who the hell knows. Sanders was raised in a time when it was common knowledge that women aren’t as smart as men. It was a fact. It is what it was.
I have spent the last 20 years beating that shit out of my 68 year old husband’s brain.
I won.

Response moderated (Spam)
Jonsblond's avatar

Sanders isn’t a liar. Warren is a flip flopper.

And what @Gorilla said.

chyna's avatar

No way to know.

KNOWITALL's avatar

Warrens kind of kooky if you ask me. I’m with Bernie. Truly cant imagine any context he’d say that.

canidmajor's avatar

He probably said something along the lines of “historically, women have not been electable to the office of POTUS” which is, historically, true, and it was probably misunderstood and taken out of context.
Unless someone was there, they can’t know, we can’t know.

LostInParadise's avatar

It is a non-issue. Warren is not making a big deal about it, only saying that she felt hurt by the remark. Since the electability of a woman may be a concern among some voters, Warren was right to offer strong reasons for believing that a woman can be elected president, especially given the success of female candidates in the midterm elections.

LadyMarissa's avatar

BOTH of them!!! The Dems have been fading into nowhere with the press, so they needed some exciting press time. Politicians on both sides will sacrifice themselves for the good of the party. Sander supposedly said it back in 2018 & Warren forgets about it during ALL the debates except the last one??? I don’t think so!!! It’s a calculated last minute attempt at getting the female voters to rally behind the Dems…specifically Warren & Sanders agreed to do it. His heart attack must be worse than they’ve admitted to so far!!!

jca2's avatar

Only a bug on the wall would know if the comment was made or not made.

tinyfaery's avatar

I honestly don’t give a shit. It’s nonsense like this that will give us 4 more years of Trump. It’s 2016 all over again.

Caravanfan's avatar

I’ve actually been thinking about this a lot, and I’m changing my mind. There are a lot of examples in the #metoo movement where women have been denigrated or ignored, or their concerns about harassment or even microaggressions have been passed over. Regardless of whether Bernie said that women can’t be elected, or if he was just “misconstrued” unless Warren is outright lying Bernie obviously said something that concerned her. He should apologize.

Jonsblond's avatar

Oh good grief.

JLeslie's avatar

It’s stupid.

Maybe Bernie said something along the lines of a woman might have trouble winning, because he thought part of the population would be hesitant to elect a woman, but I in no way believe Bernie thinks a woman shouldn’t be president, or couldn’t do the job. Who knows what was said exactly, people have faulty memories.

This is the media harping on nothing! Waste of time. It’s the same as saying Bloomberg is racist because he said Booker spoke well, or that Buttegieg can’t win because he’s gay. It doesn’t mean the person saying it is racist or homophobic, this is propaganda bullshit in my opinion.

I hear people constantly say a woman can’t win, or that America voted for a black man before a woman, and that shows America won’t elect a woman. Again, I say bullshit. Bernie said it, Hillary got the popular vote, and that was with a bunch of Bernie supporting democrats not voting for her, or anybody, because they were upset. She still win the popular vote. Bernie knows it, he’s not stupid.

I really believe Republicans start this garbage. Or, Russia. I’m totally conspiracy theory on this sort of politics.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

It instantly registered in my mind as tactic Warren is employing to get an edge on Sanders and it’s not going to work. Even if Sanders said something big or small she is using it to her advantage if not completely lying about it. She has just made herself look very bad IMO. What kind of leader snubs a handshake like that too.

Jonsblond's avatar

I was working last night and missed the beginning of the debate. Did she really snub Bernie? Wow.

gorillapaws's avatar

@Caravanfan ”...unless Warren is outright lying Bernie obviously said something that concerned her…”

This conversation took place over a year ago so why are we hearing about it on the eve of the last primary debate before the Iowa primaries when Bernie seems to be surging?

Why is a private conversation being leaked?

Why was it leaked to the press by 4 anonymous Warren campaign staffers who did not directly hear the statement in question?

Why did CNN sit on the story for months until the eve of the debate?

If it bothered Warren so much at the time, why didn’t she bring it up back then? And why was she so friendly with Bernie all year long until now?

Why would Bernie be dumb enough to give a potential rival (even a friendly one) in the election ammunition to use against him? What could he possibly gain from it? Is he just a complete idiot?

Why would Bernie have deferred to Warren in 2015 if he thought a woman couldn’t win?

Why would Bernie have campaigned so hard for Clinton in 2016 if he thought a woman couldn’t win?

Where’s the outcry about Biden who publicly said that Clinton faced sexism, but “that’s not going to happen to me.”?

Do people actually believe the most progressive candidate in the race secretly hates women?

AlaskaTundrea's avatar

I see this as a non-issue. In the grand scheme of things, it’s not only unimportant, but most likely taking attention off other issues.

Caravanfan's avatar

1. Because the Iowa caucus is coming up and that’s how politics work

2. See 1

3. Ratings

4. That’s language that is used by apologists of sexual abuse perpetrators

5. Yes. I’m going to go with idiot

6. Has nothing to do with his conversation.

7. Straw man. This isn’t about Biden

8. Another straw man. Warren never said he hates women.

tinyfaery's avatar

“If it bothered Warren so much at the time, why didn’t she bring it up back then? And why was she so friendly with Bernie all year long until now?”

This is an ugly statement, and akin to language often used to negate the claims of victims of sexual violence. It’s also proof that people who we otherwise think would never say something so questionable absolutely can.

Caravanfan's avatar

@tinyfaery I agree. Although I know @gorillapaws well enough to know that he didn’t mean it that way. He means well.

seawulf575's avatar

I particularly loved the moderator of the debate on this topic. She asked Sanders about it and he denied ever having said it. She then verified it…so what you are saying is that you never said it? He agreed…he had never said it. She then turned to Warren and asked “How do you feel about Sanders saying women can’t be president?” It’s like she just decided Sanders was lying, ignored his answers, and pressed the question.

tinyfaery's avatar

@Caravanfan Sure. But anyone can say something questionable, even Bernie. That was my point.

Jonsblond's avatar

@seawulf575 Yes, it’s 2016 all over again. The establishment is terrified of him and won’t give him a chance. I didn’t love it. What I will love is when his supporters turn out in high numbers and he becomes the nominee.

Caravanfan's avatar

@Jonsblond I disagree with you. I’m about as “establishment” as you can get. I am a middle aged neoliberal white male who has voted Republican as well as Democrat many times (not that it matters in California). And I am not afraid of Bernie whatsoever. I don’t like him but I’m not afraid of him. I think that in the unlikely event he were to be elected he would be able to push the needle a bit but he certainly couldn’t do any more damage than President Orange has done, even with a Democratic Congress. What I AM terrified is that if he were to be nominated he would get crushed. But as much as I can’t stand the guy and the Bernie Bros, I will be the first to vote for him in the General election (literally, because I vote absentee and I mail it out the day I get it).

But back to the question. Who do you think is lying? Bernie or Elizabeth?

Dutchess_lll's avatar

At the risk of repeating myself, I think he probably said it. It wasn’t necessarily meant to be rude or mean. He was just stating the facts as he learned them in the 40s 50s and 60s.

One time Rick and I went l visited his Dad when American Idol was the thing. Rick loved that show and talked Dad into watching it.
One black girl sang. Dad allowed as she had a really good voice ”...but her color is against her.” I almost fell out of my chair! To this day I don’t if he was serious.
The gal was Jordan Sparks who went on the win the whole shebang that year, 2007.
Dad was born in 1922.

Jonsblond's avatar

I answered above. Bernie isn’t a liar. Elizabeth is a flip flopper. She’ll say anything to get a vote. @Gorillapaws shared plenty of facts that support Bernie’s stance on women. He has a lifelong history of supporting them. He tried to get Elizabeth to run in 2015. She declined so he ran instead.

Jonsblond's avatar

@Dutchess not everyone born during his time believed those things. I know you think men are horrible but not all men are. My father is older than Bernie and he never believed that shit from back then. He has always supported women. Bernie’s record of supporting and fighting for women’s rights is enough proof to prove you otherwise.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

I don’t think men are horrible. I didn’t think Rick’s dad was horrible. He sounded regretful but was just looking at the reality.

Jonsblond's avatar

^his reality

Caravanfan's avatar

What amazes me is how far the Bernie supporters will go to smear a women by calling her name. Oh, wait…they did that 4 years ago too.

Caravanfan's avatar

Typo above. I meant “names” not “name”.

JLeslie's avatar

I think stories like what @Caravanfan just posted are more of what I’m talking about when I say my head is in the conspiracy theory space. Let’s say the candidates had a tense moment, so what?! I heard someone else say that they didn’t shake hands after the debate is very telling. Ugh, I don’t think it has to mean much of anything. Everyone reads into everything too much.

Bernie threw his hands up? Let’s just go with stereotypes and generalizations, because in my opinion it fits: he’s Jewish from the northeast, he talks with his hands. I’ll add I don’t know many Jewish men who think women are not as smart as men, and I know a lot of Jewish people.

I don’t have a problem with @Caravanfan posting the article, I’m just using it as an example if the type of stories that I think are making something out of nothing. I’ll add that I think @Caravanfan is right on the spot about a lot of the Bernie supporters, and I fully believe he will vote for Bernie if he’s nominated by the party. Caravan has been perfectly consistent on this for a long time now.

Jonsblond's avatar

Smear a woman? ffs. We call people out for their bs, man or woman. I’ve been raped twice so don’t try to pull this #metoo movement excuse on me. Just be honest and say you don’t like Bernie. Bernie’s lifelong record speaks for itself. He just won the endorsement of the largest teachers union in Nevada and the National Nurses Union. Most of these people are women.

Response moderated (Flame-Bait)
JLeslie's avatar

I defended Bernie above. The accusations against him are ridiculous in my mind. I might not agree with him on everything politically, but I believe him to be one of the most honest candidates around. I trust him completely in terms of him being a man with integrity.

chyna's avatar

Whether it was said or not, it’s ridiculous to fight over. I feel like this is a grade school play ground. I was hoping the Democrats wouldn’t lower themselves to trumps level and argue about nothing. They need to get back to discussing what they stand for and their plans for our country.

Caravanfan's avatar

To be clear I don’t think Bernie is a misogynist. I think that many Bernie supporters are misogynists.

JLeslie's avatar

@Caravanfan Do you still think he should apologize?

Caravanfan's avatar

Of course he should. And then put it behind him because the whole thing is a distraction. All he had to say is “I’m so sorry I gave that impression. That’s really not what I meant and I apologize”.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

He should depending on if he actually said something. If he did not then in no way should he.

chyna's avatar

He shouldn’t apologize if he didn’t say it.

JLeslie's avatar

@Caravanfan I don’t think it would put it to bed. Some people would still criticize him for how he worded the apology, and that he wasn’t really taking responsibility or he was still denying saying the words Warren accuses him of. Stating sorry for the impression isn’t enough for these people who pick apart everything and are hurt and on the defense all of the time. I don’t even think of Warren as being that type of person, but plenty of people out there are.

Caravanfan's avatar

@JLeslie You’re probably right. At this point the best thing he can hope for is that this dies down in the new news cycle of the impeachment trial and football playoffs. Nowadays people only are interested in what is shiny and new.

kritiper's avatar

Both are matters of opinion, not lies.

kritiper's avatar

It’s easy to blame stuff on people if you don’t have to prove they actually did anything.

Caravanfan's avatar

Jonah Goldberg posted an article outlining very eruditely how Warren is a lying sack of shit.

Caravanfan's avatar

Here is the article if anybody is interested

In case you don’t know who he is he’s a very conservative Never Trumper.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

Thanks @Caravanfan. Interesting read.

Jonsblond's avatar

Yes, Warren is known for lying and Bernie is known for supporting women and every other minority for his entire life.

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