Social Question

seawulf575's avatar

Is this a result of Sanctuary Cities policies on illegal aliens and does media bias play a part?

Asked by seawulf575 (10189points) 1 month ago

a 92 year old woman was found raped and murdered in NYC. Her spine was broken and she was strangled. The perpetrator accused of the crime is a 21 year old Guyanese man who had over stayed his visa. He was arrested for assaulting his father with a broken cup. ICE filed a detainer request with the NYPD and it was ignored. The perp was released. 2 weeks later he did this to a 92 year old woman. Is this a result of the faulty liberal policies concerning illegal aliens?
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/authorities-blame-de-blasio-after-illegal-immigrant-charged-for-rape-and-murder-of-woman-92
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/man-in-custody-in-death-of-92-year-old-woman-found-on-queens-street/2257726/

Interesting part of these two articles is the slant. The Examiner story gives the details. The NBC article glosses over it all and doesn’t mention the perpetrator was here illegally and that a detainer request was ignored by the NYPD. Does this show media bias?

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70 Answers

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Well for you it does and isn’t that the only thing that counts?
EVERYTHING is the liberals fault end of story.

KNOWITALL's avatar

To me, there is clear media bias here. Great example.

I don’t believe any liberals I know would approve of the rape and murder, but I also don’t think they’ll change their minds about illegal immigrants and the dangers they pose.

lucillelucillelucille's avatar

It certainly does.

si3tech's avatar

IMHO people coming to our country must be vetted. If you do not support OUR constitution, bill of rights and OUR laws do not enter. No one has a “right” to come here. No one.

si3tech's avatar

The above is the “logical consequence” of “open borders” not selecting, vetting who enters our country.

rebbel's avatar

“No one has a “right” to come here. No one”

14. The Right to Seek a Safe Place to Live. If we are frightened of being badly treated in our own country, we all have the right to run away to another country to be safe.

United Nations
Universal Declaration of Human Rights

ragingloli's avatar

Less than your mass shooting epidemic is the result of faulty right wing opposition to gun control legislation.

Demosthenes's avatar

I think it’s also related to a general “criminal coddling” that goes on in cities like SF and NYC. And we’ll get all the statements from officials and what should’ve been done and how hey should not have been here. Why so many “shoulds”? Why does the system have so many cracks?

elbanditoroso's avatar

So Seawulf is arguing that one piece of shit should invalidate an entire US foreign policy?

Ridiculous.

ucme's avatar

I only wanted to take time out to pay respect to that poor old woman.
All that she must have lived through in those 92yrs only to be extinguished in such a brutal & cowardly way.

Bless her & may she rest in the peace she deserves.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

ICE is not using due process, ” ICE filed a detainer request” is not a valid warrant !

It is, “Hold the Brownskin !”

The guy was a “Bad actor” but NYC had no valid reason to hold him, oh NYC’s assets are being used not ICE’s assets without reimbursement.

Sagacious's avatar

Duh…what do you think?

stanleybmanly's avatar

Both sanctuary cities and liberal bias might be culpable IF everyone born outside the United States is a depraved murderer. As it is, the killer’s legal status is about as relevant to the crime as his wardrobe or religion. Leave it to a rag like the Examiner to fan the flames of bigotry and exenophobia.

Patty_Melt's avatar

It is a shame that in the phrase “illegal immigrant” has a huge blind spot for so many people. Can you believe it? They truly only see the word immigrant. The word illegal is completely invisible to them.
So sad.

SergeantQueen's avatar

It has less to do with liberal/conservative and more to do with shitty government. They should be keeping up on visas and whose overstayed. They should also be kicking the people out that aren’t here legally.

stanleybmanly's avatar

The shame is in what characteristics so many people are ready to declare illegal.

SergeantQueen's avatar

It isn’t political. It isn’t either sides fault. The city’s government should have removed him

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@SergeantQueen Why ?? Because he is Brownskinned !

kritiper's avatar

I think any “policies” are not real written items. They’re more of accepted, generalized conceptions.

SergeantQueen's avatar

The OP said he overstayed his visa.
Fuck off with your race bullshit I would have said the same thing if he were white. I don’t give a fuck. You overstay your visa, you should expect getting kicked out.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Overstaying a Visa is not a “FUCK OFF” due process still applies (except is you are Brownskinned)

“Bull shit”: is Gestapo action by Trump.

While in North Carolina it is still against the law to ‘DRIVE WHILE BEING BLACK’

SergeantQueen's avatar

Where did I say it was an immediate process? I didn’t.
Doesn’t matter. I’m unfollowing this question. I know what I said, I believe what I said, and race is irrelevant.

Jonsblond's avatar

Can we deport all the old white priests who rape young boys? Wherever will we send them?

JLeslie's avatar

If his visa hadn’t expired yet what would be to blame? He’d still be the same man. His visa expiring doesn’t suddenly turn him into a rapist.

I don’t really understand what a sanctuary city is, I’ve tried to. First and foremost, if someone is a felon they need to be taken off the streets. That’s local police. Once convicted of a crime, then if they are here on a visa or illegal, they get deported or jailed. They don’t even need to be here illegally. If they are anything short of a citizen they risk their right to stay in America. That’s the law.

SergeantQueen's avatar

@Jonsblond Send them to the Vatican

seawulf575's avatar

@ragingloli “Less than your mass shooting epidemic is the result of faulty right wing opposition to gun control legislation.” Please…again…enlighten us. What gun control laws can you possibly put in place that people who are willing to commit murder would be daunted by? That they would suddenly say “wow….I better not break THAT law!”. They are killing people!!!! Murder is already against the law!!!!

seawulf575's avatar

@elbanditoroso “So Seawulf is arguing that one piece of shit should invalidate an entire US foreign policy?” No, not at all. Sanctuary Cities are not US foreign policy. And ICE is the group responsible for immigration law enforcement. So maybe what I am arguing (or at least positing) is that Sancturary cities, by refusing to work with the group responsible for immigration are the ones invalidating our immigration laws. And by doing so, should they be accountable for the results of their actions?

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie “ICE is not using due process, ” ICE filed a detainer request” is not a valid warrant !” ICE is using the correct process. A detainer request is a short term request. It is designed to give ICE time to take custody of the criminal.

https://www.ice.gov/detainers

Police “detain” people all the time. If you get pulled over and the cop thinks you might have drugs or some other contraband in your car, he can put you in cuffs for a period to allow them to ascertain if their suspicions are true. If they are, THEN you get arrested. Oh! and when you get arrested? There is no warrant. If you are caught in the commission of a crime, the police can haul you away. They don’t need to apply for a warrant first. In this case, the guy was arrested for assault, but had already violated his Visa to be in this country. ICE has that information already. All they need is to be given a chance to take custody. And LEAs work with other LEAs all the time…at their own expense. If a guy or gal is picked up in one state or county for a crime and while doing a background check it comes out there is a warrant out for murder from another state or county, they don’t just ignore that. They reach out and contact the other LEA and work with them to get justice done.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly “Both sanctuary cities and liberal bias might be culpable IF everyone born outside the United States is a depraved murderer. ” Not at all. There are laws that govern immigration into this nation. In this case, the person was already arrested for assault. He had proven he can be violent. And ICE filed a detainer long before he was let go. So you have the governing immigration body asking local LE to hold him so ICE can take custody and process him out of the country….in support of our immigration laws. It is the liberal policies that purposely ignore that request and turn out someone who could have been removed back onto the streets to cause more damage. But go back further. The criminal entered this country legally. His visa expired so he was in violation of the immigration laws. But ICE didn’t go after him at that time. It was only after he committed a violent crime that they went after him. It wasn’t an assumption that all immigrants are violent criminals or that merely violating immigration law makes them violent. It was a proven fact…he was violent.
As for the Examiner “fanning the flames of bigotry and xenophobia” (the correct spelling), I would have to ask the question….how? They gave the facts exactly as they were. You might want to ask why the NBC report was so lacking in pertinent details. When facts tell a story, it isn’t fanning the flames of anything. It is telling the story. When you avoid reporting facts you don’t like, you change the story. That is called bias.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly “The shame is in what characteristics so many people are ready to declare illegal.” Hmmmm…I always thought breaking the law was what was considered illegal. Do you have a different definition? Even down to the smallest of laws…parking in areas or at times you are not allowed, crossing a street where you are not supposed to, littering….all these things have laws associated with them. If you break those laws, you are acting illegally. If you are acting illegally and get caught, you are subject to the punishments for those crimes. Why is it that liberals always want to exclude those things that are their pet agendas? That is the point of this question…by ignoring the laws and requests for help, are the sanctuary cities culpable for the crimes committed by those they are supporting?

seawulf575's avatar

@Jonsblond “Can we deport all the old white priests who rape young boys? Wherever will we send them?” You could if they were here on visas or illegally. Then you could send them back to wherever they came from. After they are punished for their crimes here. For citizens that were born here or were naturalized, they are deported to prison…hopefully.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie “If his visa hadn’t expired yet what would be to blame? He’d still be the same man. His visa expiring doesn’t suddenly turn him into a rapist.” It really doesn’t matter if his visa is active or not. There are a number of crimes that a person could commit that would rise to the level of allowing the visa to be revoked. Assault would do it.

https://fam.state.gov/fam/09FAM/09FAM030203.html

And the point of this question is whether or not the liberal policies of NYC protecting the immigrant from being deported makes them culpable in future actions or not. There was a perfect opportunity to remove this person from the country. If he was removed, he could not have gone on to commit this heinous crime. When a person commits a crime such as assault, it might be an escalating thing. Look at most of the serial killers. They start off torturing and killing small animals and pets. Just because they kill an animal doesn’t mean they are going to go on to kill humans, but it might. It might be a sign of bigger things to come and that intervention might be necessary to stop it from happening.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 We are agreeing. I have always pointed out on fluther, and in real life, that anything short of citizen you are at risk of losing your right to be in America, you cannot commit crimes or you can be stripped of your papers, sent back to your country, and not allowed back into America. I know people who have had this happen for simply working while here on a tourist visa.

Everyone talks illegal and legal, the Republicans dwell on illegal immigrants, and they should stop that crap, because it’s pushing the left farther to the left to protecting people who are truly criminals, and not just crossing the border.

I don’t know if this particular guy was convicted already of a felony, or had just been arrested. We still have innocent until proven guilty.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

VALID WARRANT @seawulf575 not “Driving while brown ! !”

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie We know it’s pushing the Left to defend criminals. That is exactly why it is such a partisan issue.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL Well both sides are screwing up. The Democrats now have vocally come out and said we don’t want wide open borders to put that to bed. Some politicians are talking about immigration reform. I’m begging the Republicans to stop calling illegal immigrants criminals for just the act of crossing the border. They persistently try to dehumanize illegal immigrants, and too many make it sound like they mean all immigrants. That’s how it sounds anyway.

The conversation should be about crime, catching criminals, and doing what we can in society to reduce crime. Secondary to that is the status of the criminal regarding visas, not the other way around.

People who committed crimes were being jailed and deported and stripped of their right to re-enter the US before Trump. That story about the woman who was killed in San Francisco (I think it was San Fran) by an illegal immigrant who was deported 5 times was deported 5 TIMES. The problem wasn’t deporting him, the problem was he needed to be in jail!

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie I think this guy was only arrested for assault on his father, but was not through court on it yet. Unfortunately for him, with the immigration laws, getting arrested may be enough. I don’t agree with that…I am with you that you are innocent until proven guilty. I do believe there are situations where the arrest might be enough. If the cops walked in and the guy had a weapon in his hand threatening someone else…yeah, that’s probably enough. It would certainly be enough to hold up in court and only some loophole or plea deal could get you out of that one.
But I tend to disagree with your assessment that the Repubs pushing illegal immigrants is what is pushing the left to protect criminals. That is insanity. That’s like saying that just because the government raises taxes, they are pushing me to commit armed robbery. Huh? It makes no sense. What is pushing the left is politics, plain and simply. They are trying desperately to allow people in this country illegally the right to vote and they are trying to set themselves up as the ones that support these folks.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie That case in SF was Kate Steinle. There was so much wrong with that case I don’t know where to start. The perpetrator, a guy named Jose Garcia-Zarate, claimed he found a gun, picked it up and it discharged, hitting Kate in the back while she was walking with her father and killing her. He was acquitted of murder charges but was found guilty of being a felon in possession of a gun and was sentenced to a 3 years in prison. That was overturned by a appellate court. So basically, he is here illegally, he killed someone, and he is being let off with no punishment. Meanwhile, Steinle’s family tried suing the city for their sanctuary city policies as being contributing factors and they were denied that right. So an American citizen was killed, the killer is getting off scot-free, and the family is screwed.
But the issue is not just jailing these guys. He WAS jailed…each time he committed a crime. And after being jailed, he was deported. And he just walked back across the border again. And cities like SF make it more appealing to do so and have proven they will protect him. Every time he re-enters the country after being deported is a felony. He served 4 years for just one of these times. The issue is that it is way too easy to enter this country and that there are people willing to protect you once you do. Ask yourself a question…what is the punishment for entering China illegally? Answer: If you are found residing or working in China illegally you are jailed for 5–15 days and fined between $730 and $3000. Employers are fined up to $14,500 per illegal alien they are employing. Don’t want to do China? Okay…how about Canada? You do jail time if you enter their country illegally.
But the problem is that jailing people without making any attempt and stopping the flood across the border is foolishness. There aren’t enough prisons and the costs would be more than catching and deporting them.

LostInParadise's avatar

There is no evidence linking crime to immigrants. See this Wikipedia article. Under the section on United States:
There is no empirical evidence that either legal or illegal immigration increases crime rate in the United States.[184][185] Most studies in the U.S. have found lower crime rates among immigrants than among non-immigrants, and that higher concentrations of immigrants are associated with lower crime rates

Apparently the way to lower crime rates is to allow more immigration

seawulf575's avatar

@LostInParadise Nope…not all illegal immigrants are violent criminals. But here’s the problem: every one of them has broken the law already. Some multiple times. And everyone that is in this country illegally and does commit a violent crime is a violent crime that should not have happened. People being what they are, crimes will always occur. Part of the problem is what we are willing to call a crime. Where do you draw the line? Is it murder only? Rape and murder? Robbery? Crimes committed with a weapon? Jaywalking? How you define that is also how you pad the stats. Entering some countries illegally is considered what amounts to a felony and is a jailable offense. Here we don’t even want to acknowledge there are laws against it. If you start claiming illegal entry into the country as a crime, then every one of the studies in your Wikipedia article is falsely biased. Every one of the people in this country illegally would then have to be considered to have committed a crime. Not the legal immigrants, those that are not here legally.

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie okay…next time a cop stops you, tell him (or her) he needs a valid warrant to write you a ticket. Or how about this one…next time you are getting mugged and a cop sees it, he (or she) should go out and apply for a valid warrant and then serve it when it finally comes through, if it does at all. Meanwhile, you will still get mugged and will get no help whatsoever.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Like it or not, sanctuary cities are about jurisdictional responsibilities and obligations. Cities are not required to enforce Federal statutes any mote than ICE can issue parking tickets on city streets. Cities simply opt out of the migrant detention process as is their right.

LostInParadise's avatar

@seawulf575 , Sanctuary cities are willing to accept illegal immigrants. They don’t look at them as criminals, but as people fleeing oppression. Saying that illegal immigrants are criminals by virtue of their immigration status is not going to get us anywhere. Neither is pointing to a crime committed by a single person. Immigrants are not all murderers and rapists, as Trump has said. The statistics seem to indicate that immigrants commit crime at a lower rate than native born citizens. You will need another argument for condemning them.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly Exactly. So should they be held accountable for their decisions to release violent criminals just because they illegal aliens? The Sanctuary Cities made a choice. That choice, in this case and in others, has led to violence being used against innocent people.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

I didn’t say they couldn’t write a ticket or citation. You want to “lock them up” because of their color or language they speak.

The only law the they broke as an immigrant is your hero’ Trump’s imagination. It is not against the law to be an immigrant. SO show me the law !

Admit it you hate brown skinned people either legal or illegal.! Just like youe hero

seawulf575's avatar

@LostInParadise I think your argument falls completely apart with this case. This individual did not “flee from oppression” as the left loves to claim. He entered the country legally, ostensibly to seek better opportunities. Overstaying his Visa made him here illegally. He was also arrested for assault which shows he has a violent aspect to him and would have invalidated his Visa anyway. Yet the Sanctuary City made the cognitive decision to turn him back out onto the street rather than have him deported. In other words, it didn’t matter that he was violent, just that protecting him met their agenda.
As for all immigrants being murderers and rapists, that too is a liberal talking point. Please cite me anywhere that Trump said that. Here’s the kicker…if you produce some liberal slag that puts that out, I will lead you back to the actual source of that claim and you will find it is media bias that changed the entire statement.
But let me ask…you just had a violent immigrant that was here illegally that went on to brutally rape and kill (including breaking a spine and strangling) a 92 year old woman. Why are you defending him? Why would you put the idea of protecting illegals over getting people like this out of the country?

stanleybmanly's avatar

It is untrue that they were released because they are illegal aliens. That’s possible preposterous. They are released because their immigration status is BEYOND THE JURISDICTION OF THE CITIES.

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie “You want to “lock them up” because of their color or language they speak.” and that is where your entire side of the conversation falls apart. I have never said any such thing and do not even feel that way. YOU are the one that has brought race into the discussion. I would suggest it is you that are the racist.
“The only law the they broke as an immigrant is your hero’ Trump’s imagination. It is not against the law to be an immigrant. SO show me the law !” Again, you create a narrative that does not exist. Trump has never said being an immigrant if against the law, nor have I. However, how you get here and how long you stay may be in violation of the law

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325

https://www.uscis.gov/legal-resources/immigration-and-nationality-act

There are the laws. When someone breaks those laws, there are punishments associated with them. And they apply to people of all races, all colors, all sexes, all religions, etc. Face it, you are the one that is the racist and can only project your thoughts onto others to try making an argument of the discussion.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly And that is where your argument falls apart. The organization that has the jurisdiction for immigration made the request for assistance. The city has made it a priority to NOT work with this organization. So their decision led to this brutal death.

stanleybmanly's avatar

My argument holds up just fine, just as the city’s argument holds up and sanctuary cities LEGALLY roll right along. It is the will of the people of the city that none be penalized for the circumstances of their birth.

LostInParadise's avatar

@seawulf575 , The justice system should treeat the guy the same as anyone else. If he commits serious crimes then he should be imprisoned. There is no reason to use deportation as a punishment device. What he did is unfortunate but I don’t see the relevancy of his immigration status. What if the same thing was done by a native born citizen?

I heard Trump refer to Mexican immigrants as murderers and rapists. He did say that he was not referring to all Mexicans, just the one who were illegal immigrants.

seawulf575's avatar

@LostInParadise just like anyone entering this country, they are subject to our laws. Immigration laws are still laws. Violating those laws has penalties. Deportation might be the penalty given the violation. Just like driving drunk might get you a fine or jail time, violating immigration laws might yield a fine or deportation. In this case, the Sanctuary city opted to ignore the immigration laws for political reasons. As a result of that effort, a violent offender was released and a 92 year old was brutally raped and murdered. And given that, as he had immigrant status, there are other laws that apply and other punishments that could have been done to avoid the future crime that was committed. That is how his immigration status applies. Trying to avoid that is making you look purposefully ignorant and I know you are not.
As for Trump, as I said, show me the citation. I have looked this one up and know you are 100% wrong. And I will not do your work for you. I’m HOPING you will do the actual research yourself and realize how the liberal media has twisted the story into what you “heard”.

seawulf575's avatar

Oh heck! Here is a GREAT explanation of how the liberal media skewed that entire “Mexican rapists” thing

http://www.newstandardpress.com/trump-mexicans-and-the-media/

If you read this (which I doubt you will) and take the time to actually think about what the author is saying, you will have to admit you have been duped by a biased media.

rebbel's avatar

No, @LostInParadise, that’s of course totally a taken out of context piece that.
What is that you say?
Oh, it’s a transcript of an actual speech?

He’s got one thing right though.
“We have no competence.”

Tropical_Willie's avatar

^^^HA-HA ! !^^^

seawulf575's avatar

@LostInParadise so did you miss this piece out of the article you cited? ” And some, I assume, are good people.”
Let’s look at what your claims have been so far:
“Immigrants are not all murderers and rapists, as Trump has said.”

followed by: “I heard Trump refer to Mexican immigrants as murderers and rapists. He did say that he was not referring to all Mexicans, just the one who were illegal immigrants.”

So what we are seeing is that your statement itself is starting to change. It went from the uber-left talking point that Trump said all immigrants are murderers and rapists to Mexican immigrants are murderers and rapists, to not all Mexicans, just illegal immigrants. You then give me the citation that you didn’t even read yourself. Yes, @rebbel, it is an actual transcript of the speech. Please note a couple things in that speech. Not once did he use the word immigrant. Not once did he say illegal immigrant. Not once did he say murderer. He did not say all Mexicans. He did not say everyone that came across was bad…he actually acknowledged that some were presumably good people.
Yet in your rush to hate Trump, you have taken the lies that you have been fed by a liberal media and spewed them. You even had the facts in front of you and could not see them. It doesn’t help that there are other folks that have bought into the lies in their own efforts to hate Trump (as they have been told to do) that cheer you on and feed you praise for repeating the lies. What Trump said was mainly true. There are criminals coming across our borders. There are drugs coming with them. There are rapists along the way and crossing. And these aren’t even Trumps assumptions, he got the data from the Border Patrol agents. Can you really argue with these facts? Do you REALLY believe that 100% of the people coming across our borders illegally are really good people? Can you really say that drugs and human trafficking don’t come across with them? If you can deny all that, then you are entirely marinated in the liberal kool-aid. But if you can’t deny those facts, then you are left with having to see that the media has skewed what was said, repeated their lie over and over until many people such as yourself believed it.

rebbel's avatar

@seawulf575 Yes, it indeed didn’t say anything about murderers.
You are right.
Of course I didn’t say anything about murderers either.
So I don’t know why you brought that up (since you were referring to me).

He only talked about being sent ”..people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.”

In a way its a very warm welcome, now that I read it again.

By the way, I don’t hate people.
(” Yet in your rush to hate Trump” (if that was directed at me)).

LostInParadise's avatar

Yes, how nice of Trump to assume that, among all the illegal immigrant criminals, there must also be a few nice people.

seawulf575's avatar

@rebbel You are correct about not saying murderers. I was not clear with that statement. That entire response was supposed to be geared towards @LostInParadise except for the acknowledgement of your statement that it was the actual transcript.

seawulf575's avatar

@LostInParadise at least he did that. So far you haven’t acknowledged there are criminals among them.

LostInParadise's avatar

@seawulf575 , What Trump is saying is that illegal immigrants are the trash that other countries are trying to get rid of. The statistics indicate otherwise. If you want to lower the crime rate, bring in more immigrants

seawulf575's avatar

@LostInParadise so you still can’t admit that drugs and human trafficking go on or that not all illegal immigrants are nice people. Why is that? Is it because you might have to admit Trump wasn’t wrong?

LostInParadise's avatar

And you are unwilling to admit that illegal immigrants are not the scum of society, as Trump says, and that the evidence indicates that they commit crimes at a lower rate than native born Americans.

seawulf575's avatar

@LostInParadise Let’s see…you aren’t willing to concede anything and want me to agree with a lie. Discussing with a liberal is like talking to a propagandist.

ragingloli's avatar

Colonials are racist, bigoted, religiously extremist, gun-obsessed, uneducated, ignorant, and morbidly obese land-whales, who love nothing more than killing foreigners and shooting up schools, while being too lazy to go 2 blocks without driving their oversized, petrol- guzzling monster trucks.
And some, I assume, are good people.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@ragingloli Tell us what you really think about the colonialist !!

ragingloli's avatar

Hey, I said that “some are probably good people”. So I am sure that puddlemutt completely agrees with my statement.

LostInParadise's avatar

@seawulf575 , Back at you with regard to talking to a conservative.

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