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SQUEEKY2's avatar

Are you getting tired of the blame game in politics?

Asked by SQUEEKY2 (23232points) May 7th, 2020

Especially from parties that are in power, everything wrong is their fault, everything good is our doing type thing.
Or are you fine with the blame game?

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29 Answers

lucillelucillelucille's avatar

I am tired of complaints from anybody.

gondwanalon's avatar

Yes and all of the slime.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

While Trump plays the blame game the Republican party has been largely silent. The left however blame Trump for anything and everything. I’m tired of hearing it.

KNOWITALL's avatar

Of course, but that’s politics and to be expected, unfortunately.
People said the same about Brexit and Boris.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

@ARE_you_kidding_me Largely but not totally, I have seen other right wing politicians blaming the left for everything.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 I have not seen that myself, none that was not justified anyway. Right-wing pundits sure, it’s their job to be crass for the ratings.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

So except for Trump, the right blaming the left for certain things is justified?
Does that go for the left as well?

MrGrimm888's avatar

Regardless of political affiliation, I think most of us, are sick of the politics.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 Yes and no, not so much this time. When a democrat is in office (if ever again) that story may be different. Right now the American left is behaving as badly as I have ever seen them. Worse than when Obama was in office which was the lowest of the low for the right.

josie's avatar

I thought that is what politics is all about

Soubresaut's avatar

@ARE_you_kidding_me McConnell and the Tea Party vowed to obstruct Obama for the sake of obstructing him; one of Trump’s pet projects is to try and actively undo aspects of Obama’s legacy. The Democrats have not done in kind, no matter how much those three entities keep saying they have and they are.

If you want people to blame for the dysfunction, blame the bad actors who actively sew dysfunction for their own benefit. McConnell plays unfairly on purpose so that he can win at the expense of others who he will then claim are the real cheaters of the system. The members of the Tea Party were and have been obstructionist by design. Trump is all of the things that he is that make him an objectively bad president, reasons which are now culminating in people across the country dying as a direct result of his incompetence in how to (or unwillingness to?) govern.

When given a choice between someone who they worried would be too polarizing to moderate Republicans and someone who had a track record of being moderate and seeking compromise, Democratic voters have chosen the latter. The Democratic party is not the party mucking up the governmental pathways in this country. The Democratic party is not the party refusing to find compromises. The moderates of the Republican party (they claim they’re out there) would do well to realize that the it’s the people in their own party pointing their fingers and shouting “look over there!” that are the biggest problem.

If you’re reading this and you’re truly a moderate Republican, please for everyone’s sake vote for the competent candidate come November.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Boom…..

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

@Soubresaut You have an assumption that there is a competent candidate running. There is not. Not even close.

Soubresaut's avatar

@ARE_you_kidding_me The fact that otherwise intelligent people have accepted the idea that “incompetence” and “has some views I disagree with” are the same thing says a lot about which party is better at salesmanship.

Biden worked in the Senate for decades and was VP for 8 years. He studied law and worked as a lawyer before that. He is competent at the business of federal governance. When a crisis happens, he’ll know how to respond. When legislation is passed, he’ll understand what it means. When he speaks publically, he’ll understand the weight his position in office gives his words.

These aren’t supposed to be factors in choosing a candidate; they’re supposed to be givens. But the Republican party has some serious problems that it is seemingly unwilling to address (or even acknowledge), so this is where we are.

If you want your preferred party to be respectable again, if you want a competent candidate running for your party in four years, you need to give your party a reason to do so. They’re perfectly happy with the breakdown in (little d) democratic norms of governance. They think it is in their political interest to continue down that path, dragging the country down with them. Please do you part in showing them they need to course correct.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

@Soubresaut Don’t lecture me on this. I have never seen the left act so childish, petty and reckless even when Bush was in office. They are making the Obama bashing right wingers look like amateurs. I’m not a Trumper either and will be voting third party. Biden will not get my vote, he’ll clearly be a do nothing as most career politicians are. He is status quo and I think you all know it. I do not consider people who should be in a geriatric ward getting treatment for dementia competent, that includes Trump before you say anything. We do not have any competent candidates running. What is my “party” anyway. I don’t have one that represents my interests, neither do any of you either if we are being honest. I’m a center leaning conservative-ish libertarian. I may not like what the republicans do but I really don’t like what the democrats do especially in regards to our economy. This is something Trump actually got a B- in by my measures. If voting third party puts Trump back I’m ok with that because I simply do not trust the left wing with our economy. Give them the chance and they will fuck it up just like every other blue state on the map has. I have watched Trump fumble through doing a halfway passable job for the last four years. I just hope he can keep his mind from coming apart a little longer. If I had any respect for the left it’s been dashed in the last few years because of bullshit like this impeachment and their crass attitude that is almost as bad or worse as Trump but on a different platform. The things that come out of the mouths of the left’s top officials like Pelosi is indistinguishable from the pundits on cable news. Cable news is trash in case you did not know that already. There is nothing “respectable” about the democratic party at all right now. They have no issue stooping to Trump’s level or lower and in great numbers. Shocking how many to be honest. The complacency and silence of decent, well-intentioned democrats is deafening. It’s as bad as the right not decrying the hate groups that call themselves “right-wing.” All they know how to do is go after Trump, they don’t have any other tools in the toolbox and they certainly have not convinced me they’ll do anything to help regular people. I only trust republicans a sliver more simply because a few of them are completely reasonable and they’re not so fast to embrace any fanciful idea that looks good on paper or panders to peoples emotions.

Soubresaut's avatar

I guess it does come across as a lecture. That wasn’t my intention.

“If voting third party puts Trump back I’m ok with that.” This is the crux of our disagreement.

What I understand from what you’ve said is that you’d rather not have Trump in office, and you’ll vote third party in an attempt to be able to avoid choosing between the two candidates that have a shot—but if pressed to choose, you will choose another 4 years of Trump’s mayhem.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

It has not exactly been mayhem, more spectacle than anything else.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^May I ask you, why even vote?

I know. People hate me, for not voting. But. Isn’t voting third party, like not voting?

No disrespect, intended…

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

It’s not. If enough people voted third party we would be able to bypass mainline party politics. The numbers are probably there, it just needs to be sold.

Soubresaut's avatar

@MrGrimm888, vote.
@ARE_you_kidding_me—that’s a fanciful idea.

Soubresaut's avatar

@ARE_you_kidding_me, I was thinking about this exchange once again, and I wonder if our differing perspectives aren’t at least in part due to age. I’ve only lived in a political landscape where people like McConnell, the Tea Party, now Trump—people who are nearly without fail members of one of the two major parties—have made careers of trashing democratic norms for their own political gain. Perhaps if I was older, and had seen politics before this, I would be able to have an equally pessimistic view of the whole process, and see it all as a wash as well. I don’t have that luxury. I would like that luxury. I would like the worst actors out of the way so I can even see how the status quo operates, and enjoy the luxury of being pickier with my politics.

Putting Trump back in office only confirms to politicians that those sorts of shenanigans are how to get ahead, further eroding our ability to make sound decisions as a nation.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

@Soubresaut I have lived in rural America, small college towns and big cities. My mother is a Democrat and dad is a staunch Republican. I have very liberal friends and very conservative coworkers. For 95% of these people their politics are simply a result of the company they keep. For those who do think the people who lean left almost universally have less life experience or have not held much responsibility. They don’t tend to think about what can go wrong but focus on what can go right. The opposite is mostly true with those who lean right. Too much focus on both ends is problematic. Without the left-right push/pull ideas are either completely ignored or run with full speed ahead. Neither are very pragmatic. For the people who follow their party line without wavering and are “believers” there is little difference between those on the left or right. They’re both angry, idealistic, insecure and desperately need affirmation and want to fit in. You will seldom encounter someone with their own ideas. I’m quite cynical about people spouting politics.

Soubresaut's avatar

I understand cynicism, and I understand wanting to hold out on things when they don’t match my ideals. But I don’t see how either of those stances really accomplish much. They’re more about feeling right, aren’t they? Feeling like you’ve got the game figured out, feeling like it can’t surprise or disappoint you, feeling like you can see the bigger picture that others are presumably too swept up by [whatever] to understand like you can.

No, removing Trump does not solve all problems. But his removal is a rejection of a proudly ignorant, me-first, antagonistic-by-design, damn-the-consequences kind of politics. Biden self-identifies as a moderate, and views his political strength as his ability to meet in the middle and find compromises. Choosing that over Trump is a step in the right direction. It doesn’t mean we’ve solved everything. It doesn’t mean you (or anyone) agree with everything. It doesn’t even mean you (or anyone) like everything. It just means we are slightly better equipped to keep moving forward as a nation.

There may be a portion of the Democrat base that identifies as “left of center,” but nationally the Democrat voting power is moderate. That’s why the moderate candidate won the Democratic primary.

I don’t agree that left/right politics match up with a yin/yang of rashness and caution. Maybe they did at one point. They don’t today.

I’m not “left” because of where I live. I’m progressive because I believe we should be working to make things better than they are, through measured, well-thought-out, science-based efforts. I’m not conservative or right-of-center because the models of human nature and human motivations that tend to inform those ideologies are scientifically outdated. I don’t really care what people call me past that.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

“I’m progressive because I believe we should be working to make things better than they are, through measured, well-thought-out, science-based efforts.

This is not something a “progressive” political leaning really does. “Progressive” is a misleading term hijacked by the far left. They use this to claim the moral high ground and tout “science” but they generally don’t use any actual science. It’s usually just feel-good identity politics, pro-choice, pro-socialist, anti-gun rhetoric. They can claim some science for environmental causes but would be hard pressed to explain any of it when you speak to a deeply political “believer” Some of their environmental activism is so misinformed when it comes to real science that you have to just shake your head. Most people I have met who are highly ideological are actually quite regressive in one form or another.

The truth about that is actual scientists hold a cross section of political views that run the entire gamut. I have worked in and out of national labs, in the energy sector and in geotech. I probably know personally more actual scientists and engineers than most will ever meet in their entire life. There is no rhyme or reason to their politics. The reason is likely that most political hot button issues simply are not scientific in nature. It’s more ethical dilemmas and moral issues that are not easily answered that place people on the political spectrum. At the extremes the yin and yang is real too regardless if you believe it or not. Some people simply don’t think about consequences and will push new ideas ahead, often dangerously. Others will be stuck in the same old ways of doing things for better or worse until they are pulled out of them by force. Most of us are near the center on one side or another regardless of where we say we are. Where most say they are has more to do with fitting in with the people around them than it does with their actual politics if they have even really thought about it. Deny that all you want, it’s the truth.

This is not to say there are not major problems with the far right, just don’t be lulled into thinking that the left side of the isle has some special monopoly on “progressive” progress. There is no “A” team to be on here. For most people who do take the time to think about where they are on certain issues they likely won’t fit neatly into neat little boxes with convenient labels. If they do chances are you are describing someone who has not really though very much about things. We all know people like this and they’re often the most vocal.

Soubresaut's avatar

I’m not lulled into anything. If you have a knee-jerk reaction to that word, too, because it already has some sort of connotation to you, fine. I only meant it in the literal sense of seeking general “progress,” which I thought my explanation made clear. Maybe it didn’t. (Side question—why is “pro-choice” just called “pro-choice” in that list, when you’ve clearly chosen the most extreme labels to define positions for the other topics? It leaves me unclear whether you are identifying “far left” positions, or are identifying things that are politically much more moderate, but that people positioned on the “right” of politics call far left.)

I didn’t say that all scientists have a consensus on politics. That is not a fair interpretation of what I said, or a relevant rebuttal.

I also did not disagree that somewhere “out there” is some give and take between people who move too quickly and others who don’t move at all. I disagree that it’s cleanly divided along political lines, or that it can explain the political divide in the country. That’s a romanticized notion.

What I guess I am fundamentally stuck on is the idea that you consider yourself moderate, but are apparently unwilling to recognize that politics (as everything) is a matter of degree—which seems like the kind of thing a moderate would recognize—and that just because you don’t like Biden doesn’t mean he’s not still an objectively better presidential choice than Trump. (Especially when we’re in the midst of a crisis that Trump has unambiguously demonstrated he is unable to effectively lead).

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

“Progressive” is so deeply ingrained in the colloquial political lexicon that it’s almost impossible not to take it that way. When someone says “they’re progressive” it generally means they adhere to that political ideology. Don’t mistake this for an attack if you don’t identify with this ideology. We probably have more in common politically than not.

Why would you have a hard time calling me moderate? I don’t follow any hard lines but most do who bicker with politics. I’m also speaking in generalities, the law of large numbers will trend political leaning into these mindsets without fail. It’s all very predictable on the whole. Also “moderate” does not just mean compromise. I’m an atheist, I’m mostly pro-gun, pro-choice, pro-capitalism, pro-environment with certain caveats. I don’t fit neatly into one frame or another and I suspect you may be in this situation as well. The “moderate spectrum” is vast and what some consider moderate others will consider very differently.

MrGrimm888's avatar

What if people didn’t insist on labeling?......

Soubresaut's avatar

To answer your question:

First, I know that I don’t know you. In that sense, I don’t have a “hard time” accepting what you want to call yourself, and accepting however you define it.

I know that being moderate doesn’t “mean compromise.” But politics does. Our voting choices are as much about what we’re willing to tolerate as what we actively vote to support. You and I seem to agree that people don’t fit into “neat little boxes with convenient labels,” though I’m assuming from how some of your responses focus on this point, you feel we also disagree somewhere on the details of it. With other political activity we can express more nuance. We only have one vote on a given person or issue—and until there is a serious grass roots effort to present a 3rd candidate that has a chance (not just disparate people saying “it could happen”), or a serious grass roots effort to put in place some form of rank choice voting, we have two choices for President.

We may in fact have more in common politically than not. I don’t have a problem with that idea. I don’t know for sure one way or another. But that’s also probably why I’m more stuck on this difference than I would be for someone who decided voting for Trump was a good idea, and has somehow continued buying into the idea that Trump is doing a fine job.

As far as holding moderate views, that’s where I’m not so sure. To answer your question, here are a few examples from this thread to show why I might doubt that:

- Trump is not moderate.
– Claiming the two presidential candidates both have dementia is not moderate.
– Saying that every “blue state” has fucked up its own economy is not moderate, nor is saying that anyone who is on the “blue” side of the red/blue divide will do the same with the country. (It’s actually a rather partisan statement).
– I find it consistently unclear who you consider “left” and “left wing” and “far left.” Sometimes it seems like you consider anyone left of the Republican party “left”—which is to dismiss a lot of the political landscape for the convenience of identifying a unified “other.”

(Note: I realize now I changed what you called “center leaning” to “moderate” in my head, though I think those two terms overlap enough that it doesn’t really change the meaning).

About Trump doing a “passable,” and “B-” job. I don’t think it’s remarkable that someone unfit for the office of President has avoided completely crippling a country whose government systems were originally designed to limit the ability a single person has to unilaterally cripple a country. But to use “the country is still moving just fine” as your metric is to miss the deforestation for the fact that the forest isn’t gone yet (to use an environmental metaphor). What I don’t understand is whether you don’t see it, choose not to see it, don’t care, or feel like it’s hopeless anyway.

In theory, if everyone voted for whatever was the “better” of the two options—not best, just better—we would see steady progress as a nation. I know that concept doesn’t work when people have differing opinions on what constitutes best, and on what constitutes the steps of “better” that will get there. But we all should agree that incompetence, corruption, and the eroding of democratic norms are bad, and that the more these things are prevelent, the worse off we are as a nation. Whataboutism doesn’t get us out of that. Pretending that everyone is equally incompetent, corrupt, and antagonistic to democratic norms doesn’t get us out of that. We need to be voting for the better option come elections, and then remain politically engaged citizens the rest of the time. And of course that is frustrating and hard and slow.

And I’ll stop now because I’m worried that it sounds like a lecture again, (still not my intention—just trying to explain my answer to your question), and I definitely didn’t mean to make such a long response to a conversation we’ve already been having for a while. Apologies on both counts.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Well articulated, as I presumed.

I am most concerned about people who vote D, or R, across the board….

My understanding is that many people do…...

That is a disservice, to a democracy. IMO…......

In addition, it keeps the “idea” of America, from working…

As you mentioned, the main thing is to keep one person, from holding too much power.

Ironically, republican ideology, is to keep the power of the government, in check…

Yet. We are witnessing the capabilities of one party/ideology, controlling the country…

How can voting for one party, make this country into what it could be?..........

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