Social Question

jca2's avatar

How, if at all, would you respond to a comment that says "Why is it that pancake syrup, statues, books, buildings and monuments weren't racist when Obama was President?"?

Asked by jca2 (8885points) 2 weeks ago

Someone just posted a meme on FB that says that, and I usually don’t comment or argue with people about things, but this one annoys me.

I am looking to respond to it.

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

53 Answers

hmmmmmm's avatar

Don’t bother. You’re not going to convince them.

Of course, the answer = they were racist when Obama was president. But nobody listened. Once enough people demand to be heard, suddenly people who haven’t been listening are surprised by the “sudden” desire for change.

SavoirFaire's avatar

All of these were issues during the Obama years (and before). They just didn’t get as much attention back then. In fact, a lot of racial issues got glossed over under the bizarre pretense that electing President Obama somehow proved that racism was over and/or that the US was post-racial (as if a single event like that could prove anything of the sort). But not being aware of something doesn’t mean it wasn’t happening.

si3tech's avatar

How do you spell HYPOCRISY?

JLeslie's avatar

They were.

The syrup updated Aunt Jemima several times because they knew the original was a racist depiction.

Statues were being talked about during Obama and before. Confederate flags have been argued about for many many years. Lots of good links given above.

Renaming the Washington Redskins has come up many many times, including when Obama was president. Schools all over America have changed their mascot from due to racism over the last 20 years.

Like with most change, it takes time. Things have been proposed and fought about for years, and finally, this time, the change is happening, because what happened with George Floyd was so heartbreaking and TERRIFYING people were pushed to a breaking point. This was the icing after 4 years of a president who gives out dog whistles to the racist people within his base. After we have listened to white people talk about white culture, nationalism, and being better than other groups (supreme).

Push too far and you get an opposite and equal reaction.

It’s happening now, because of what has been happening with Trump. Some of these white Trump followers seem honestly oblivious. The ignorance is stunning. If you use the word ignorant they hear stupid, and even that is ignorant.

Additionally, social media is more in front of everyone, so people are more aware of what is happening in all corners of the country now. Lastly, the AMNESIA is really unbelievable. I see it with people referencing H1N1 like nothing happened then, they have no memory of the panic and health warnings, and advisories for churches and schools that closed.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie Aren’t you white? If you had said any other race, your statements would be considered very racist. Think about it.

seawulf575's avatar

I actually think the better question is: If pancake syrup, statues, books, buildings and monuments are so racist, why isn’t the Democratic Party since they were the biggest pushers of racism in this nation? As for how to respond to the person that posted the meme that so annoys you, my initial thought when I read your question was that since you couldn’t really come up with an answer and had to ask what the good answer might be, the question has a whole lot of truth in it. In the end, the only racism is what people bring in their own minds. If you want to push racism, you can attach anything or anyone at all and say “See?!? That person/thing has racism in its past!!!”. This list shows that even blacks were slave owners/traders, some actually establishing the rules of slavery in this country. Blacks in Africa enslaved other blacks and sold them to slavers where they were brought to Europe and America. As I have said before, if you are actually, honestly, concerned about past slavery in this country, we need to have an actual honest and open conversation, complete with all the harsh realities. Oh! another thought: If all these things from our past are so racist and horrible, why isn’t modern day slavery a bad thing? “The BBC”: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51697800 cites a report from WaPo about slavery being used in China to produce Nike shoes. Why don’t we ban LeBron James or Colin Kaepernic since they both sponsored by Nike?

hmmmmmm's avatar

@seawulf575: “I actually think the better question is…”

If you want to ask a question, click the Ask Fluther button.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL Racist how? I am white by most people’s definition.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie If I need to explain, nevermind. Sigh.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I’m equal opportunity. If Black people were walking around saying they were superior or threatening things that incite violence I would be just as critical. Or, any group, Hispanic, Native American, and so on. I was very critical of the fires and protests the Cubans had going on when they wanted Elian Gonzales to stay in the country, and that they were carrying their Cuban flag during the protests while demanding Elian stay in America!

I’ve said it here. I was against violence and fires in the recent BLM protests. I said I think Defund the Police is a terrible slogan. White people have been the majority in America, they haven’t had statues and flags put up that represent threatening their freedom and existence, or pictures on products that represent a time when they were not given equality. I don’t know how much more consistent and equal I can be.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie Here is one of a black guy talking about how superior Blacks are. But really, you don’t slam the people that get upset if you say “All Lives Matter”. They really want blacks to be superior. Inciting violence? Antifa does it all the time and BLM “protests” have frequently degraded into violence, looting, rioting, etc. Black Panthers marching in military wear and carrying guns calling for killing cops…remember that one? It got next to no air time on most of the media outlets because it happened during Obama’s time in office. This sort of thing has gone on for years. And it is always the same…there is violence and ignorance and calls that it’s all the white people’s fault or the cops fault. Look at reality for a moment. Look at all the mayhem caused by BLM over the past 5 years. Look at all the riots that took place at their “peaceful protests”. Now they may not actually be rioting, but they are setting the stage to allow that sort of thing to go one endlessly. They are part of the problem.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

BLM was the instigator for it all.

Jonsblond's avatar

How in the world is @JLeslie sounding racist? Did I miss something? Please explain Knowitall.

Demosthenes's avatar

I would point out that the question is loaded and ask them to defend the premise that these things “weren’t racist when Obama was president” and go from there.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Jonsblond I am just so tired of white Karens attacking their own race who have done nothing wrong.
Substitute black for white in her comments and see how it hits you. A white woman saying blacks are ignorant would never be tolerated here, nor is it acceptable to me in regards to my race.

Jonsblond's avatar

Haha. White victimhood? Gotcha.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 What does some idiot talking crazy talk (I only listened to a minute) have to do with statues and a flag that has been lorded over an entire group of people, some of which are in the center of cities in places of prominence for over 50 years? The flag is obviously way longer that 50 years. Put yourself in their place. I have no problem calling black people who are hateful and violent just that. That has nothing to do with with a chorus of white people supported by our president using language that is terrorizing. Nationalism, nationalists. Look it up, White Nationalists. Doesn’t matter how you want to define it, it is terrorizing.

I am not in favor of vandalizing and destroying the statues, but I am in favor of addressing their existence and how to make things right. They either need to moved or a big plaque that tells the truth about the history at the base of the statues. If people in Michigan are carrying confederate flags that should tell you something. They aren’t Southerners. What do you think that flag means to them? You think all those Michiganders carrying the confederate flag had Southern forefathers? Maybe a couple, but that is not why that flag is usually flying in the North.

I never approved of the Black Panther tactics back when it was happening. I don’t know why you say I that I am saying it is all white people’s fault? I said I think Defund the Police was ridiculous and I knew it would backfire. That action caused a reaction that made things worse in my opinion.

I don’t like that so many Black people seem ungrateful to the white people who did help with civil rights and who continue to, and especially to the Jews, because we came out in disproportionate numbers. I don’t like that so many Blacks think they own the term civil rights, and don’t acknowledge that gay rights are also about civil rights. I don’t like that so many Black people want acknowledgement for their past as being worse than my people who were tortured and sent to the ovens. I am not siding with Black people, or a particular race, I call it like I see it about anyone and everyone.

A portion of white people in this country as of late have behaved in a way that is scary. I live where that guy shouted “white power.” Not funny at all. Can you agree that is not funny/ That it is very scary to some people?

Everyone knows there were Black slave owners so what? Are the blacks making statues of those people and talking about them in high regard. I don’t hold one white person today responsible for slavery in America. I don’t hold one German person born after 1930 responsible for what the Nazis did. They didn’t do it, it was their parents and grandparents. They are not responsible for the actions of their ancestors. The thing is there are still white people today who want to deny the civil war was about slavery. The Germans today don’t deny the Nazis were genocidal maniacs, killing people systematically, experimenting on them, enslaving them. The Germans would not send a statue of a Nazi soldier as a representation of their state.

What does all of this have to do with the price of tea in China? I am talking about why things are exploding now. It was all building up. The last few years have added a ton of pressure to the pot, and then George Floyd was killed in front of our eyes, but it is not the first time that the confederate flag and confederate statues have come under scrutiny. That is just AMNESIA.

@KNOWITALL I’m not calling the whole white race ignorant, just the people who don’t understand how they are being manipulated to think it is ok to use words like Nationalism and be blind to what they means to so many people not only in America, but in the world. Trigger words. Ignorant does not mean stupid. I’m ignorant about Bass fishing and Medieval history. These things are causing more division in the country, it is destroying us. I am not saying all the white people who use these terms are racist, I do not believe they are, I have said it a zillion times, I just think they lack the understanding for why it is scary talk to so many of us. For some reason they don’t want to listen. Again, ignorant does not mean stupid. I am not making that up, that is just a fact about the word. Liberals are being manipulated too. It is happening all around us. I’ll stop using the word ignorant, it obviously is offensive to some people and just shuts things down. I would use the word for Black people too, as I described above a lot of Black people seem ignorant and ungrateful to those who are not Black who have helped their cause. Many Black people seem ignorant to why gay rights are also a civil rights issue. That annoys me too.

The White Supremacists hate me. I am not white to them. Back in the day the Catholics weren’t white enough for them either, maybe that has changed. The KKK didn’t like anyone but White Protestants.

I am not attacking the white race, white people have come out in droves for equality and many have bent over backwards to help the cause over the years. I firmly believe the vast majority of people in our country are not racist.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie I keep hearing about all these evil white people, especially Trump supporters, using language that is terrorizing, yet I cannot come up with a whole lot of examples off the top of my head. Just like I keep hearing how prevalent racism is in our country, yet I cannot come up with any real life examples. If it is so prevalent and is such a problem, how come there really aren’t that many examples out there? And I say this not to be obnoxious, just to point out that it seems to me you are starting from a false premise and moving on from there.
See, I think what we have here is rhetoric used to support a political statement. I think there was probably some schmuck at some point that made some hateful statement and that was all it took for the opponents to say “See!?! They are ALL like that. They ALL think like that guy. And that is the problem!”. Likewise with racism. I’m sure it is out there, but it is definitely not the widespread, overwhelming thing it is made out to be. In fact I would say most people are not that racist. At least most people I know and have worked with and interacted with in my life. Again, it is a nice way to say “See?!? Racism is everywhere so everyone needs to change to eliminate it!”.
You talked about the guy that shouted “White Power”. You say that is scary. Yet we hear “Black Power” all the time are are supposed to support it. We hear Black Lives Matter and are not even allowed to say that All Lives Matter or else it is somehow hateful. You do see the dichotomy here, right? Can we agree they are really two sides of the same coin?
There are not statues of black slave owners, that is true. However, there are statues of people being attacked that were being honored for things other than owning slaves. In fact I can’t think of a single statue that said “He was a great slave owner!”. There are people trying to get rid of Washington and Jefferson and even Lincoln statues because they claim they were slave owners. They were bold people that risked their very lives to help create this nation that allows others to slam them over things that were acceptable in their time. You even bring up Nazi Germany. Ever stop to think that not all Germans liked Hitler? Just because someone was born before 1930 in Germany doesn’t mean they were Nazis or that they even supported Hitler. There were some that defected and others that even helped others. Take a look at Oskar Schindler sometime. He WAS a Nazi that defied Hitler’s laws and saved 1200 Jews. You say you don’t hold one white person living today responsible for slavery in America. That is very generous of you, but many of your statements contradict that self-aggrandizing statement. Remember all the evil Trump supporters? How about anyone that dares to say it is total idiocy to focus so much on tearing down statues? And how can you ignore my statement about China using slave labor? Modern day slavery is going on and these exact same people screaming about slavery in our nation that ended over 150 years ago are silent. Why? Because the slaves being used aren’t black? Isn’t that about as racist a statement that you can have? These fools in BLM are so dead-set on making their political statements and tearing down our history that they forgot to learn from it.

Jonsblond's avatar

^There have have several racist incidents just this past week in my city. Just because you don’t witness it or read about it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 I said I think the vast majority of Americans are NOT racist. I’m not sure why you are lecturing me on that? Look back and I over and over again say I don’t believe all people who support Trump are racist. I just think they are aligning themselves with racist people, and I don’t see how they don’t see it. I know as a Democrat I’m in the same boat with some people much farther left than me who I don’t agree with. Republicans seem to be in denial about their racist part of the party as it currently stands today.

Saying “White power” is racist and threatening. Thankfully our Republican club came out with a statement that they don’t support that and separated themselves from that idiot. I heard a lot of Republicans trying to say it was harmless and tried to justify with the use of the term Black power from many years ago. I don’t like the “power” statement in either case.

WS using the protests to riot is racist.

Saying the word Nationalism and Nationalist is perceived as part of the way Nazis were able to come to power and as a Nazi term, and so it is racist.

The confederate flag is a symbol of racism, and people who fight that it isn’t, we don’t know where they stand unless we know them personally, I know some of them have convinced themselves the civil war was not about slavery. On the surface that flag is perceived as racist.

Confederate statues are a symbol of racism in the same way as the confederate flag.

Marching in Charlottesville with torches, saying they won’t let Jews take control, or whatever they said, is antisemitic and those people are an advertisement for racism of all types.

A couple of weeks ago a jelly said there is always a group that is on the top and another on the bottom. I think white people who think like that are admitting they want to keep other races down. I had never heard anything like that until then.

Mass shooting at a Black church in Charleston.

Mass shooting at a Synagogue.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@seawulf575 Virtue signalling is rising as fast as Covid.

jca2's avatar

FYI I’m giving GA’s to every answer.

Demosthenes's avatar

People who think “white power” is a direct analogy of “black power” are no different than the people who shout “straight pride” in answer to “gay pride”. In other words, it’s something born of a total lack of understanding of history and context and only done to “one-up” something they perceive as an attack on them. We can talk about the relevance of black power today, but black power arose as a means of propping up a downtrodden demographic. White power rose as a way of protecting what was already in power. They are not exact parallels. I also don’t hear much call to support “black power”? I haven’t actually heard anyone use the phrase “black power” recently. “Black lives matter”, sure, there is a lot of pressure to utter that phrase and accept the aims of the movement, but black power I have hardly encountered.

I’ve already commented on the difference between “black lives matter” and “all lives matter” in other questions, so sorry if this is repetitive, but I’m going to say it again since it’s been brought up. “Black lives matter” started as a response to the killing of black people by police. It is a reflection of the belief that black people are treated unfairly by cops, that their lives are not valued as much as that of white and other non-black demographics. Saying “black lives matter” is like saying “black people are treated worse by cops”. Saying “all lives matter” in response to this is like saying “no, they’re not”. That is why there is a problem with “all lives matter”. There was an image that illustrated the difference perfectly. It said something like “We never said “only black lives matter”, we know “all lives matter”, we’re focusing on black lives because they’re in danger”. You may not agree that they are in danger, but that is the point of the phrase. The perceived threat and lack of respect to black lives. And yes, I’m sure there are some black supremacists who use the phrase, but they do not represent the most widespread purpose of the phrase.

This is what I have to say to the association of Trump support with racism: Trump himself may not be racist, the majority of Trump supporters are not racist, but racists are drawn to the kind of populism that Trump espouses. That does not mean it is acceptable to judge all Trump supporters. But this is a valid observation, no different than observing the fact that violent extremists are drawn to Islam in a way that they’re not drawn to other religions.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL Virtue Signaling. I had to look it up. I guess I’ll start hearing that everywhere now.

Who or what exactly are you referring to?

This is not about feeling or being more virtuous or superior. It’s just the opposite.

Maybe you can explain to me why @Seawulf575 can’t admit there is some racism that happens in our country and just call it when it happens. Jews complain about far right Jews who, we don’t stop short of criticizing them just because they are Jewish also. I willingly criticized Black people, extreme acts done by Antifa, millions of white people have come out in support of minorities both Democrats and Republicans.

We say Confederate statues represent slavery, and @seawulf’s response is black people owned slaves too. Yes they did. Ok, take down or move or put up a plaque explaining the history of any black slave owner statues. I’m good with that. See how that works.

JLeslie's avatar

Sorry for my incomplete sentence above. My internet connection dropped.

raum's avatar

I would say that racial privilege has allowed you to go about your daily lives without noticing racism until it shows up on your social media feed.

The existence of other people’s lived experiences of racism does not depend on you acknowledging its existence. But the breaking down of these racist structures requires that we collectively acknowledge its existence.

We cannot solve a problem that we refuse to acknowledge.

Jonsblond's avatar

^great answer

@JLeslie virtue signaling is the response given by those who refuse to acknowledge the problem. This is why @knowitall said you sounded racist. She refuses to acknowledge the true meaning of racism and its history. (Waiting for her response where she says “but I have black friends.”~)

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JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL Here’s the thing, when was I talking about you? My memory might be wrong, but I don’t think of you as racist against any group. Why are you taking anything I said personally? Because you are white? I talked about white people who have come out over and over again over many many years, fighting for equality, and I also talked about racist white people, why are you choosing to identify with the white people who I am accusing of being racist?

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 About China. Plenty of Americans give a shit about slave labor in Asia. It’s been talked about for many many years across political party lines it is not a political issue—Americans are not ok with it. Same with slavery in America, it still goes on. If they put up a statue to honor those slave owners I’ll have the same response about those statues.

FYI I just saw The View from yesterday and Whoopi Goldberg (Black) called Nick Cannon (Black) ignorant for his antisemitic commentary. Sunny went on a rant about how she doesn’t understand how another minority can do such a thing. There you go, two Black people not letting this other Black person slide. We all sit here waiting for you to agree that “White Power“ is a racist and terrorizing. That the Statues represent wanting to reserve slavery. You don’t.

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JLeslie's avatar

Here’s the exchange on The View about the antisemitic comments by Nick Cannon. https://www.facebook.com/TheView/videos/281694866428850/?vh=e&extid=JEkCQ6tvq1oIE5oE

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JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL You disagree with the definition of Nationalism, but do we agree White Nationalists are a hate group?

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL A curiosity, were you using the term Nationalism before Trump? I didn’t hear Americans using it except in history class, and that was over 30 years ago.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie I prefer to use WS and yes I agree they are often hate groups.
No I didn’t and due to the interpretation discrepancies, I won’t use it, as I think it muddies the water. In regards to racism, I think we need to be very clear.
Grandpa flying his flag is certainly different than a WS with a swastika in his forehead. That’s what many of us hear with ‘nationalism.’

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie For the record, everyone I know disapproves of that word, when Trump used it, too.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I agree that 90% of the time the person putting the flag out on their house is not wanting to promote hate or racism. I lived in the South, I understand many people see it as a symbol of the South and they are proud to be Southerners. When I see the flag, and I don’t know the person, I don’t know if they want to kill me. You are not a target of the hate associated with the old South, or more specifically the WS. Try to imagine you were. The KKK didn’t like Catholics, I seem to remember you were raised Catholic. What if the Charlottesville WS protestors with their torches and guns were chanting “we will stop the Catholics.”

Plenty of Southerners during the time were against slavery and also Jim Crow laws for that matter, but we are not talking about them, we are talking about the laws and people who fought to keep hate and inequality alive.

The thing is, many Southerners literally deny the war was in part to keep slavery intact. They flat out argue the war had nothing to do with slavery. Slavery is in the declarations! That is very different than Germans today regarding Nazi Germany. There are still Nazis in Germany just like we still have our KKK, again I’m just talking about governments and overall in the general population.

JLeslie's avatar

Oh, they disapproved when Trump used the word Nationalism? Not among many people I know. Many defended it. That’s interesting.

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KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie ‘When I see the flag, and I don’t know the person, I don’t know if they want to kill me.’

Really? Maybe I’d understand the Confederate flag, but otherwise I don’t relate to that at all or think it in any way is an accurate representation of patriots.

I think where we disagree is where the hate is coming from and who is keeping it ongoing, as well as the multitude of innocent victims of all colors who have been hurt or killed in the last few months.

As far as that word, yes, because we knew how Dems would twist it, and they did.

@Jonsblond Still don’t care either way. Buh-bye.

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JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL Well, I know some WS adopted the Confederate flag, and the WS are antisemitic. Living in the North, where it is extremely rare to see a Confederate flag, it is very unnerving to see one, because most of the time in the North that flag is used as a symbol of the WS, it is not like in the South. So, it took me a long time to get used to seeing one when I lived in the South.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie But you feel fear with the regular flag, too?

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie I think you are laboring under some really warped ideas. But let’s back up so we can address them all. You say “That has nothing to do with with a chorus of white people supported by our president using language that is terrorizing. Nationalism, nationalists.” But then you say, when I clocked you on it, ” Look back and I over and over again say I don’t believe all people who support Trump are racist. I just think they are aligning themselves with racist people, and I don’t see how they don’t see it. ” Gee…I can’t imagine why anyone would think you thought Trump supporters were racists. Just because you tried saying it and then tried backtracking and saying they only align themselves with racists. Maybe the problem is your understanding of the definitions of the words you use? Nationalism for instance. According to Merriam-Webster is ”1: loyalty and devotion to a nation especially : a sense of national consciousness (see CONSCIOUSNESS sense 1c) exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups Intense nationalism was one of the causes of the war.
2: a nationalist movement or government”

That involves pride in one’s country and is not racist. I know the fools on the left have tried using it as some sort of slam and have equated it to racism, but they are trying to create a meaning that isn’t there. And you bought into it. You recommended I look it up and that didn’t work out too good for you, did it? But let’s continue because it get even better!
The only difference between “White Power” and “Black Power” is the color of the person saying it. If one is offensive, both are. If you say otherwise, you are showing racism because you are favoring one race over another. The fact that blacks don’t see that pushing issues because of their race is not racism doesn’t make it so. That’s why they get so mad when someone says “All Lives Matter”...because they are racist and want it only to be black lives. Any time any person believes race is the thing that makes them different, better, or more important, they are racist. Maybe you should look up the term to get a better understanding. Oh, why wait? Again, Merriam-Webster: “1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2a: a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles
b: a political or social system founded on racism
3: racial prejudice or discrimination”

All these idiots running around accusing anyone that disagrees with them of being a racist are, in fact, racists. They are using race as the basis for their belief system.
But moving on, you make statements about “White Nationalists” and “White Supremacists”. Again…I hear all sorts of claims about this but really have never actually seen these groups. Who are they? What is the White Nationalist Group? I know the KKK tends to be white supremacists and I’m sure there are a few others, but really, I couldn’t name one if I had to. You seem to equate these groups to Trump and his supporters. Yet Trump has denounced them repeatedly. The only thing you probably don’t know or won’t admit is that the media hides that fact. So please, enlighten me…tell me who these groups are. They seem to be doing a lot of things, yet surprisingly they aren’t really in the news. Why is that?
You try to explain why the confederate flag is racist and why statues of people from the civil war are racist. Yet you fail to address why the Democratic Party, which was the party that owned this flag and who all these statued people belonged to, are not racist. Why they aren’t a reminder of racism. I know…they are different now! Except they really aren’t. Except that maybe now they are confirmed Marxists in a battle to tear down our nation. Does that make them better or worse? I don’t know. But as racists, they are well entrenched. ”“I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,” he said. “I mean, that’s a storybook, man.”” That is Joe Biden describing Barack Obama. Sounds racist to me. How about _” Poor kids are just as bright, just as talented, as white kids.”_Now remember, this is the presumptive Democratic Candidate for POTUS. This is supposed to be the guy the Dems thing fully represents them and has the best chance at winning against Trump.
But let’s back up a bit. You talk about the statues and how they are reminders of slavery. Is that why Abraham Lincoln statues have been vandalized? How about Matthias Baldwin? Ore even Frederick Douglass? These are all statues that have been vandalized or torn down because they are racist. Care to address these? Let’s be honest…you are trying to justify mob rule. Maybe you are scared or maybe you are just brainwashed…but either way, you are defending idiots and criminal idiots at that.
China. Yeah I’m sure everyone is really upset about China using slaves. Except they really aren’t. Where are the protests? Where are the boycotts? Where is the outrage even from our elected Democrat leaders? Joe Biden supports China, for God’s sake! We aren’t calling out James or Kaepernick for taking money from the company that employs slaves to make their product. So don’t try lecturing me about how much a confederate flag is a reminder of slavery when none of the fools saying that are running around in Nike shoes. Until you can honestly hold the two equal in wrongness, you are just buying into the bogus narrative.
You wait for me to acknowledge your reality, yet you will absolutely not admit to REAL reality.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL The US flag? No. Although, in the last few years I wondered if people associate wearing the flag with being a Republican? I wear the US flag all the time. I have several shirts, I have red, white, and blue pins. We have a huge American flag that usually hangs on our garage wall (my husband is a big car guy, so you can consider the garage a place of honor) and on one of his race cars he had an American flag by his name on the side of his car. One American flag and one Mexican flag on the car. I’m very patriotic.

Edit: we, my husband and I, are very grateful to be Americans.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie I thought you said in the past he was for sure. Same here.
So you understand what we’re saying about patriotism vs nationalism as you define it. That’s progress! :)
I’ll try. If you don’t support BLM’s political agenda, or if you support Trump, or this or that, it doesn’t mean a person is a racist. A true racist is ugly inside and would want to hurt you whether its for being Jewish or marrying another race.
Fact is you can’t see them all coming, they have human faces. Just like pedophiles and animal abusers and bad cops. That’s why we do need to fix things in a bipartisan way.
Some Jewish people are prejudiced against their sons marrying outside their religion. Shiksa’s right?
I’ve been cornered by three Vietnamese girls for dating a local boy of their race. Some are prejuiced.
My friend has mixed kids and was talking to a black guy on a dating app who said he refused to date outside his race and demeaned her. Really hurt her.

My point is there is far too much ingrained racism of sorts in many races and cultures, it’s not just a white issue.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I’m not sure who or what you are referring to in your first sentence.

I agree there is a difference between patriotism and nationalism, but you define nationalism differently. Or, your association (I mean how you associate the word, not that you are associated with a group) with nationalism is different. I was raised that nationalism is a commitment to your country that you will follow a leader blindly. That the nation is above all else. Even our military is taught to follow orders, but not an order that would go against our constitution. The word nationalism was used to explain the history and rise of Nazi Germany, that’s in the context I always heard that word.

I cringe when people Lord our flag over other countries like we are superior. When covid started to hit America there were several people on Facebook writing “America Strong” and people around my community had signs that said that in their front yards. I found it unnerving, because Italy was still experiencing very high caseloads and deaths, and other countries were already in lockdowns for weeks. During that time my feelings were for the world, empathy for everyone going through it. America Strong felt to me like those people were saying America is going to be better.

Your point is well taken about Jewish people wanting their children to only marry Jews, and I see that in Asian families sometimes too. I’m not excusing it, but I’ll explain the Jewish thing.

Many Jewish people are afraid the religion will disappear. It is a religious thing. They also worry about conflict in the marriage if there are children. I think most people from any background think having similar cultural backgrounds makes marriage more likely to be easier, and also if the people are from the same religion. Will the kids be baptized? Will they be raised Jewish? Even if one parent is Catholic and the other is Baptist where will the child be Baptized? Or, one parent an atheist and the other very religious.

People sometimes question social class differences or education level differences for couples who want to marry. Just from the standpoint of having things in common and similar world views.

The Asians it is a race thing and a cultural thing. I know a lot of Asians not married to Asians though.

You might remember my husband was raised Catholic, baptized and confirmed, and his parents still go to church regularly (until this covid mess). His father was raised Jewish. Obviously, we weren’t too concerned about all the cultural and religious differences in our familial background.

I don’t consider my husband a different race, but I see that now the term “racism” is being used for anyone not European-white I guess? That’s all very weird to me. I’m not upset you said it, that seems to be how a lot of people look at it, and even very extreme liberals are calling anti-Hispanic attitudes racist. It’s odd to me. My husband is European on his mother’s side, so is she a different race than you and me? She is Spanish and French. I ask this without any judgment, I’m trying to figure out who qualifies as white for people now, and if not all of Europe, what parts of Europe. Are Greeks white? Italians?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie The first sentence was regarding your husbands love for this country. :) You had mentioned that before. Its sweet so I remembered.
Talk more another time, thanks.

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