Social Question

jca2's avatar

Is Georgia just the most crazy state with the Governor's mask order?

Asked by jca2 (8933points) 2 weeks ago

In the state of Georgia, the local town and city leaders can’t supersede the Governor’s mask law, which is “no mask.”

Is that the craziest thing? Is it spiteful of him or is he just an a-hole?

The Governor is suing the Mayor of Atlanta over the mask mandate. Who suffers? The citizens.

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81 Answers

hmmmmmm's avatar

Wearing masks protects the public, allows the economy to open, and protects workers.

Kemp: “Nah. We want none of that. Allow workers and the public to die, and kill the economy!”

ragingloli's avatar

Every day I am once more reminded of the fact that the colonies are a third world country, wearing a Gucci dress. Run by crazies, inhabited by toddlers.
They also want to force schools to open in full, while the virus is back growing exponentially, while also encouraging them to see the CDC guidelines as just “recommendations” and to effectively ignore them. “The science should not stand in the way of this”, they say.

JLeslie's avatar

It’s crazy! Thank goodness my politics playing Florida Governor hasn’t done a move like that. He’s done the opposite so far and let the mayors and retailers take the heat for imposing mask orders and requirements. Still a problem, but not as bad as Georgia.

The governor of Georgia wins the booby prize for worst leader during a pandemic in my opinion.

Is he listening to these fringe people online that the virus isn’t serious? I just don’t get it. Is it all just politics? I don’t think it’s just politics with the governor of Georgia, I think he really is not very bright.

gorillapaws's avatar

@ragingloli I’ve been investing a larger-than-normal percentage of my 401k in the European Index Mutual fund.

cookieman's avatar

Just another state to add to my list of “so glad I don’t live there”, which is usually led by Florida.

That said, I’m starting to agree with @ragingloli, which is kinda sad to me.

I may just look into moving to my wife’s tiny, family hometown back in Italy if this keeps up here.

johnpowell's avatar

Here is the timeline as I remember this. I was watching the news as this happened.

The mayor of Atlanta (Bottoms) was on CNN or MSNBC. I was watching live but don’t remember which. While she was on TV being interviewed they did a split screen of Trump landing in Atlanta and getting off AF1 (11AM on the 15th). Trump was not wearing a mask as he departed and was greeted.

She said on air that Trump was breaking Atlanta law by not wearing a mask. It was mostly a jokey exchange.

Fast forward to yesterday (16th). Somewhere around 3PM the lawsuit is announced. And it seems at least a little weird that Mayor bottoms is personally named in the lawsuit.

Kemp has always been Trumps little bitch. I bet Trump got pissy that she joked that he was breaking Atlanta law on TV. Then Kemp retaliates. I feel pretty certain that is she had never mentioned it we wouldn’t be here.

LadyMarissa's avatar

@cookieman Only problem you’ll have in moving to your wife’s family hometown is that Americans are NO longer welcome & I bet she will also now be seen as one of the crazy Americans!!!

@JLeslie Kemp is a trumpford wife. He’s so far up trump’s ass that I often wonder when he collected his $130K check. He makes your governor look like a liberal

Sadly, I live in Georgia. Last election, Kemp stopped the blacks & elderly in nursing homes from being allowed to vote. He also did everything illegal he could think of to block Stacey Abrams from even being able to run against him. I’d love to see Biden choose Abrams as his VP pick. Then, IF Biden wins, Kemp would have actually propelled Abrams up the political ladder.

What I’m finding interesting in my hometown is that his attempt to block the public from wearing masks has had the opposite effect…now everyone seems determined to defy him & are wearing their masks everywhere they go. I don’t know whether it’s having the same effect on any of the larger cities in Georgia or not, but my sleepy little town is working hard to defy him!!!

JLeslie's avatar

@LadyMarissa I keep telling people we don’t need a government order to wear a mask. That’s great that your town is masking up.

I think the order is important because then everyone who has put themselves out there in front of friends and family saying masks are unhealthy, don’t work, and the mark of socialists and atheists, can put one and still say they think masks are horrible. Basically, they will save face.

A mayor in Florida said a few weeks ago, “the businesses can blame me. People can blame me.” Good for him!

cookieman's avatar

@LadyMarissa: Per che? Non lo so. Scuzi, no speaka Eng-a-lish bueno.

jca2's avatar

The other advantage of a mask order is that for employees, they have the order to stand behind even if the employer doesn’t care about it. Maybe a business (like a restaurant) will rather please customers instead of saying “No mask, no service.” With an order in place, they don’t have a choice.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

What country are you going to fly to, US is restricted ?

What country is your passport?

Jeruba's avatar

@ragingloli, Angela Merkel is a pearl beyond price. No doubt we deserve her contempt too, but she’s usually wise enough to focus her attention away from displaying it.

seawulf575's avatar

I think first you have to get the Governor’s order correct. He is saying no MANDATED mask wearing. He isn’t saying no masks. BIG difference.

hmmmmmm's avatar

^ Go on…

Patty_Melt's avatar

You can get a prescription. Doctor’s orders supercedes all laws.

seawulf575's avatar

@hmmmmmm His order says “IT IS FURTHER ORDERED: That residents and visitors of the State of Georgia are strongly encouraged to wear face coverings as practicable while outside their homes or places of residence, except when eating, drinking or exercising outdoors”. It also says: “any state, county, or municipal law, order, ordinance rule or regulation that requires persons to wear face coverings, masks, face shields, or any other Personal Protective Equipment while in places of public accommodation or on public property are suspended to the extent that they are more restrictive than this Executive Order.”
So he is strongly encouraging the use of masks, but doesn’t want them mandated. That is a far cry from “He said no masks!!!”.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 So, he won’t allow the order, he’ll only allow the advisory. That’s how I read it.

hmmmmmm's avatar

@seawulf575 – We all know what the order states. I’m curious why you don’t feel that the order is an absurd attempt at putting workers and the population at risk, while threatening the entire economy?

This is state-mandated death and economic suffering.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie Yep. He want people to wear masks, but he doesn’t want the mandated wearing of them. That gets into a really weird space legally. And he is suing the cities because they violated his order. He is on the hook for all that goes on in his state and if the cities defy his orders, they are just as out of line as if you or I violated his rules.

seawulf575's avatar

@hmmmmmm Let me ask you something…how effective are masks? Where are the scientific studies that show they are effective? I can show you a study that says there is no actual data to substantiate that assumption. In fact, they can actually add to the infection spread if used over a long period of time. An N95 mask might help stop the spread, but they are expensive and have to be fit to the user to be effective. Think Joe on the corner has one of those on? Probably not. If you want to go further, you can look at what the CDC, the WHO, and the Surgeon General said at the end of March about wearing masks: they said it wasn’t recommended or required. In fact they said people didn’t need to wear them. Part of their reasoning was that when they did a study in 2015 they found that students wearing masks touched their faces more and could be increasing their risk of spreading the disease because of that. They also noted that wearing a mask gives people a false sense of security. The masks most people wear don’t do anything at all to prevent the spread of the virus. They finally gave in a bit to the hysteria from the fear mongers and said that wearing a mask was better than nothing. But let’s think about this for a moment. People have been really cracking down on wearing masks. It is not mandated in many states. And the cases of Covid keep going up. So we were told they could increase the spread but didn’t want to believe the medical professionals. And we keep pushing the wearing and we keep seeing the infection rate go up. Repeating the same action over and over and expecting a different outcome is pretty much the definition of insanity. But if you can show me the scientific evidence that masks are effective, please, enlighten me.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 Ok, so my very first answer near the top stands.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 The countries using masks are doing much better. In America we haven’t had good compliance. It’s looking like cities, counties, and states that ordered masks and have good compliance are doing pretty well at keeping the caseload down.

If you haven’t seen it before here’s a short video about Taiwan. 7 deaths so far. This video is a little old, I think it says 6 deaths. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iiUHhHcxHVM

Japan also was compliant with masks and controlled the virus pretty well.

Where I live there is lots and lots of people with no masks even though our governor has advised masks for months. He won’t put in the order for the state though. I bet if I asked 100 people where I live, the majority of them don’t know my governor recommends masks. If it was an order they would. The same people I would bet know if they go to Orlando (An hour away) they have to wear a mask.

Now, retail chains are putting in rules. Hopefully, it will help.

I’m assuming you are not wearing a mask unless ordered. Is that right?

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@seawulf575 What right wing, Trump backing, site did you get masks spread COVID-19.

Please give source for ” In fact, they can actually add to the infection spread if used over a long period of time”

johnpowell's avatar

Stop trying to stick your willie in a brick wall. You will never get a satisfactory answer since there isn’t one.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

I hear you @johnpowell but sometime soon Putin is going to stop paying people in the USA to back Trump as Trump’s numbers for re-election TANK !! At the rate it is going Trump should be in the lower 30 % approval rating in August.

November is coming !

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie I already gave the links. Please feel free to do your own research. so far, I have asked for the scientific studies to show that masks work and not a single one of you that want to attack me have bothered to even try. What ever happened to follow the science? What ever happened to listen to the experts? I gave you links that show there is no evidence that masks really work and that they can actually contribute to more infections. I understand you can’t read and refuse to look at citations, but that really only makes you look frantic.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie Yet if you look at Denmark or Norway, they have low death rates as well and have never worn masks. But again, where is the science? Here is another article that shows that cloth masks don’t do much, if anything to stop the spread of this disease. Let me ask…when you wear a mask, do you exhale through the mask or does it exit around the sides? It’s a trick question since either answer shows you are still potentially exhaling the disease (I say potentially because it depends on if you are infected or not). If you can easily breathe through the mask, the porosity is to big to block the virus. If it exits around the sides, the moisture in your breath is still exiting into the surrounding area. But they make you feel like you are actually doing something good, right? So you wear this mask and you adjust it what…once a minute? once every two minutes? Every time you touch the mask, you are potentially transferring the virus you picked up off a surface and putting it right onto your mask. At that point you could breathe it in, but most likely your exhaled breath will just spread it into the air. But let’s say you are exhaling through the mask. The moisture from your breath will cling to the fibers of the mask. Over time you can build up enough moisture that the virus can be wicked through the mask by that liquid. I’m not making this stuff up…read the links. Follow the science. Listen to the experts.

JLeslie's avatar

^^Denmark was one of the first countries in Europe to lock down and prevent travel into the country. They were early and thorough, limiting entry and transmission of the virus. Denmark airports you must wear a mask, and in the last few weeks mask wearing is becoming more prevalent in the country, I’m not sure if the government put in an order yet.

Finland also locked down. Stopped all flights coming in. Moreover, they were testing people back in February and quarantining. I don’t know their current mask situation.

Taiwan didn’t lock down! Do you want businesses to stay open or not?

If you don’t wear a mask wear a shield. Do something.

seawulf575's avatar

^^But the question still remains: where’s the science? I’ll be honest, everything I can find is extremely inconclusive. There have been very few studies done on the efficacy of the masks even in surgeries. And what studies have been done actually point to them not being effective and possibly a detriment. And putting a piece of cloth over your face could be making things worse.

Soubresaut's avatar

@seawulf575, your first article is reviewing research on the effectiveness of masks in preventing infections during surgery. You cannot necessarily (read: probably can’t) use findings from that to draw conclusions about the effectiveness of widespread mask use during a pandemic. Your second article summarizes a study as saying: “because no studies have been done on the effectiveness of cloth masks in preventing transmission of coronavirus to others, it is impossible to assess their benefits, if any.” That is, the study says there is (was) a lack of data regarding mask effectiveness, not that there is evidence to suggest widespread mask wearing doesn’t work. That was published in April.

By May, scientists were urging the widespread use of masks because the data they were seeing was supporting the effectiveness of such practice. Source

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 A link for you. If you don’t watch the whole thing you can start at minute 4:18, but I suggest watching from the beginning. It shows visuals of how masks stop droplets. https://www.facebook.com/393532697351128/posts/3040375499333488/?vh=e

Plus, why not err on the side of caution right now.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie I have watched the entire thing. I see nothing that really contradicts anything I have already posted. Did you bother to actually read any of the links I have posted? This video you posted does not actually address some of the issues that were identified in my posts and would negate their discussions. I posted a link from the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy. Their experts say that the data concerning the use of masks does not support their use to limit transmission of Covid-19. I posted a link to a study form the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine of the efficacy of masks at preventing infections during surgeries. They cannot come up with any data to support that at all. And that is in a surgical setting with surgical mask requirements. Those are far more stringent than what people are told to do in the real world. “Wear a mask” is obscenely vague. I saw a woman with a baby bib around her nose and mouth. It was just draped down. As for meeting the criteria, she WAS wearing a mask. It gets her to meet the rule. It gives her the sense she is helping and makes others feel she is too. Yet in reality it did absolutely nothing to stop anything from coming out of her mouth or nose.
But while your video is fun to watch, it isn’t a real scientific study. The videography was done by a fluid dynamicist/mechanical engineer. It makes assumptions and conclusions that sound good but aren’t really backed by science. The links I posted actually address many of the things your video supports and they don’t support them. The fit of the mask is one. Bad fit can lead to excess venting and making the masks ineffective at all. Even the guy on your video hinted at this, though I’m sure he wasn’t meaning to. He made a comment about how wearing a mask can be uncomfortable, can get hot, and can fog up your glasses. Why do your glasses fog up? Because your breath is venting out the top and sides. The video you showed took pictures from in front of the mask and didn’t even address the side venting. How long you wear it is another. Even if it stops moisture at first, as you wear it longer, the more moisture builds up and causes a back pressure that leads to more venting out the top and sides of the mask. AND the moisture can actually help wick the virus through the mask where it can get free just through normal motion. Your video agrees it cannot see the virus and is only making the assumption it is only on the breath expelled.
In the end, the answer is there IS no science that really supports that masks do anything in reality, but make us feel like we are doing something rather than nothing.

jca2's avatar

@seawulf575: For your anecdotal example of one woman with a baby bib on her face, maybe she didn’t believe in the efficacy of masks but wanted to meet the criteria of a store policy or wherever she was, so she just put something on to meet the “cover your face” requirement. We can’t take an example of one person with a flimsy covering to mean that masks don’t work.

As for masks not working in a surgical setting, so would you be wiling to have surgery if every professional in the room (doctors, nurses, etc.) were not wearing a mask?

For the public officials that are saying to wear masks, are you saying they’re all mistaken? Maybe they’ve said something different in the past, but you’re saying they’re wrong now, too?

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 It’s fine that some of the droplets are escaping (why your glasses fog) because the virus is in large droplets and not being thrown out in front of you traveling with more velocity than if you have the mask on.

It’s about reducing the viral load. It won’t be perfect, but our bodies don’t need perfection, we need to not overwhelm the body.

Just wear a face shield if you don’t want to wear a mask. Do something if you will be near others.

There is plenty of science On masks helping to hamper infection, that’s why our surgeons wear masks when they cut people open.

You are saying that the entire world is wrong at this point. Even if you think masks are only good against bacteria, at this point it’s good for society to be as healthy as possible. Let’s have less strep throat and bacterial sinus infection. That can’t hurt this year.

seawulf575's avatar

@Soubresaut Take a look at what you just wrote. In April there were no tests available that would demonstrate that masks did anything at all and in May there were all sorts. Ever done a scientific study? You have to design the test, account for all variables, figure out the methodology, conduct testing on a representative population you wish to study, gather the data, evaluate the data, form a conclusion from your study, get the study verified by several other groups, and then publish your study. I’ll give you a hint…any valid test cannot be done in a month. Especially not on something like this. The first thing you would need is to determine if the people using the masks are Covid-19 positive. They have to be if you are going to say the masks stop this virus. You would have to have some way of testing strictly the mask and the person to eliminate other potential sources of the virus such as it being carried on clothing or surfaces or being contributed from some other source. Starting to see the contradiction here? And your article even says the WHO doesn’t recommend the wearing of masks. And your authors conclusions are sometimes assumptions. For example they test hand washing and hand washing while the person wears a mask, but they don’t actually test the mask. And it leaves the assumption unverified. And even your article talks about material selection, fit, etc are all key components on determining how effective a mask can be. And be honest…does any of the guidance we are given to “wear a mask” make any demands on any of those things?

gorillapaws's avatar

@seawulf575 Please explain how one would conduct a robust, well-controlled, double blind study to determine efficacy of face masks in reducing the likelihood of transmitting COVID-19, without violating safety/bioethics rules and laws? While you’re at it, please explain how you can design a study that determines the lethality of shooting yourself in the face…

seawulf575's avatar

@gorillapaws You could start by putting out a notice to health centers to have them ask Covid positive patients if they would like to participate in a study. Remember, about half the positive cases are asymptomatic, so you wouldn’t be challenging their treatment for the disease. Another large portion have mild to moderate symptoms and don’t require medical treatment either so they could probably participate. Just because they aren’t at death’s door doesn’t mean they aren’t contagious. That is where your test population comes from. If it were me, I’d put them in a small contained space…about the size of a closet…that has been verified to be Covid free. I’d have at least two of these…if money were no object, I’d probably have 20 or more. This space would have ventilation with collection filters in it. I’d first have the person go into one room with no mask and breathe normally for 10 minutes. Then I’d have them move to another space and repeat this with a mask on. Remember, we aren’t trying to infect others, you are just trying to determine if wearing a mask actually does stop the spread. Have some go in with paper masks, some with cloth masks, some with N95 masks, etc. Then you pull and test the collection filters to see if there is any reduction at all and if so, how much.
Gee…I managed to do that without actually infecting anyone and without putting a gun to my head. Question…are you always so smarmy?

gorillapaws's avatar

@seawulf575 What you’ve described is not testing the transmissibility, but the ability of a mask to reduce viral particles in the environment. I’m sure this has been well established with other, more benign viruses for decades.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

1918 pandemic masks It is not rocket science.

seawulf575's avatar

@gorillapaws I have been having this discussion here for quite a while. I can post the scientific reports on the topic of the effectiveness of masks, but I certainly can’t make you read it. And now you are trying to change your own challenge because I just slapped your snide comments aside. You just asked me how I could set up a study to test the efficacy of the masks. And now you are trying to say I didn’t test the transmissibility, just the efficacy of the mask. What’s wrong with you? Can’t admit you were wrong?

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie Gee…yeah, you got me there. That proves the masks are effective. It only killed 675,000 in this country. Why don’t you think before you post? NOTHING in what you just posted shows the masks work. Meanwhile I have posted a couple scientific studies that show they don’t and why. What happened to listen to the medical professionals? What happened to believe the science?

hmmmmmm's avatar

US dullards: “Masks make me feel all effeminate and commie-like. This isn’t American. Plus, we should listen to the experts and science!”

experts, science: “Wear your fucking masks, dipshits.”

US dullards: “See. Don’t wear masks, and don’t allow businesses to protect their employees. Don’t allow states to protect their economies by having mask mandates – among other things.”

experts, science: “What in the actual fuck?”

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Like I tell my “right wing” neighbor that is in his late 70’s with diabetes, over-weight and high blood pressure. “Stay healthy ! ”

He won’t wear a mask. Goes to church on Sunday and sings at the top of his lungs, according to him.

seawulf575's avatar

@hmmmmmm And….where is the science that shows masks are effective? I’ve posted several that says they really aren’t or minimally at best. But there is zero proof they actually are effective.
US Sheep: “They are telling me I have to wear a mask! I have to obey.”

Science: “there is no evidence masks are effective at stopping this virus. Especially plain cloth masks.”

US Sheep: “Stop it! Don’t make me think! They are telling me it’s the right thing!”

Science: “What in the actual fuck? Okay, there is no logic to you. Do what you want”

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Here ya go mister !

Science with video ! !

Don’t know if you’ll watch it is scientific evidence.

gorillapaws's avatar

@seawulf575 ” You just asked me how I could set up a study to test the efficacy of the masks. And now you are trying to say I didn’t test the transmissibility, just the efficacy of the mask. What’s wrong with you? Can’t admit you were wrong?”

Bold added for emphasis. Here’s exactly what I said:

”Please explain how one would conduct a robust, well-controlled, double blind study to determine efficacy of face masks in reducing the likelihood of transmitting COVID-19, without violating safety/bioethics rules and laws?”

Bold added for emphasis.

JLeslie's avatar

Libertarian messaging all over the internet against masks. We won’t change their mind. The best we can hope for is they will wear a face shield since they feel the mask is getting them sick.

gorillapaws's avatar

@JLeslie “Libertarian messaging all over the internet against masks.”

What happened to Conservatives/Libertarians championing “personal responsibility?” If you spread misinformation that leads to tens of thousands of people dying should you be held accountable? If your germs hurt someone, should you be held accountable?

Do you think when they say “personal responsibility” what they really mean is “I’m going to weaponize personal responsibility against you and then do whatever the hell I want?”

JLeslie's avatar

@gorillapaws They just rationalize that if you’re worried you should protect yourself.

Take some personal responsibility! ~

seawulf575's avatar

@gorillapaws And if you consider the test I set up, I did just that, even if you don’t want to acknowledge it. And no, the efficiency of masks has not been well established. If it has, please show me the research. I’ve shown citations from reputable medical outlets that show that masks have never really been verified and likely aren’t good at stopping much of anything. You, on the other hand, have shown nothing. Please….follow the science. Listen to the Experts. Or show me the actual study of the masks by other experts that shows how wonderful they are.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 Just curious, when you see someone wearing a mask, what do you assume about them, if you assume anything.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

^^^^^ @seawulf575 you skipped my video, see above at @Tropical_Willie ^^^^^

I know science is BS and the Video made a using CGI ! SMH

jca2's avatar

@seawulf575: I don’t believe you answered my question where I asked (above, to you specifically) if you would be willing to have surgery if the doctors and other professionals in the room did not wear masks.

seawulf575's avatar

@jca2 I would. I really don’t see the problem here, unless they have some bizarre drooling affliction.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie It depends on the person. Most times I don’t think anything about them. If they are in a store that demands masks be worn, I think they are probably wanting to buy something from that store. Sometimes I see someone, particularly the elderly, that I worry about. Not because they are wearing a mask but because I recognize they have a higher threat from Covid than a younger person. But if the person is wearing a garbage mask or it isn’t covering their nose, or it is completely worn out, I wonder why they are wearing it at all. I saw one woman wearing a baby bib as a mask. It didn’t wrap her mouth and nose and had all the effectiveness of holding a piece of paper in front of your mouth. It thought she would have been better off wearing nothing at all since she wasn’t protecting anyone. But let me ask you: When you see someone NOT wearing a mask, what do you assume about them, if you assume anything at all?

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie I saw your video. It isn’t scientific. Where is the study data? What were the test parameters? Did you notice that while they were trying to measure the distance breath goes in front of the mask, they entirely ignore all that that is blowing around the sides and out the top and bottom? Do you think that breath and moisture isn’t contagious? Do you really believe that the droplets don’t stay in the air just because they didn’t blow out the front? And what is the filtration efficiency of a bandana? A paper mask? A home sewn mask? What is the quality control on the manufacturing of these things. What measures are taken to ensure these masks fit correctly and/or are fitted to a person? That they will wear them correctly all the time? I could go on, but you get the idea. No, you probably don’t. I can explain it to you, I just can’t understand it for you.

Response moderated (Personal Attack)
gorillapaws's avatar

@seawulf575 “And no, the efficiency of masks has not been well established. If it has, please show me the research.”

SARS Transmission, Risk Factors, and Prevention in Hong Kong

”...using a mask frequently in public places (OR = 0.27, p < 0.001), washing one’s hands >10 times a day (OR = 0.58, p = 0.008), and disinfecting the living quarters thoroughly (OR = 0.41, p < 0.001) during the reference period were significant protective factors…”

Risk factors for SARS among persons without known contact with SARS patients, Beijing, China
”...The use of masks was strongly protective. Among 31 case-patients for whom convalescent-phase (>21 days) sera were available, 26% had immunoglobulin G to SARS-associated coronavirus.”

Face Mask Use and Control of Respiratory Virus Transmission in Households
”...adherent use of P2 or surgical masks significantly reduces the risk for ILI infection, with a hazard ratio equal to 0.26 (95% CI [confidence interval] 0.09–0.77; p = 0.015). No other covariate was significant….”

Analyzing the MERS disease control strategy through an optimal control problem

”...for effective eradication and control strategy for MERS, the focus should be on the medical mask intervention rather than the supportive care strategy…If there is a limited budget for interventions, concentrating on medical mask intervention for the endemic prevention scenario is the cheapest and best way to control the MERS spread. On the other hand, if an intervention is implemented in the middle of a MERS epidemic, medical mask intervention should be accompanied with the supportive care intervention.”

seawulf575's avatar

@gorillapaws Thank you. Finally someone that produced some actual science. But let me show you something I found in your first citation:

” The efficacy of widespread use of masks was controversial (6), and evaluating the efficacy of such measures in controlling the epidemic is important.”

I tried going to the citation listed, but it was unavailable. The citation was from the Hong Kong Department of Health from June 14 2003. But that statement tells me exactly what I have already stated about masks: There really have been no studies showing how effective they really are.
Your second citation was very limited in what it had to say. The only statement about masks was the sentence you listed and that doesn’t really show what testing of masks was done. However, I did find This listed as a citation for that article. It basically says exactly what I have been saying…that mask efficacy is really unknown and has not really been tested fully. Their conclusion is: ” Evidence on mask effectiveness for respiratory infection prevention is stronger in health care than community settings. N95 respirators might reduce SARS-CoV-1 risk versus surgical masks in health care settings, but applicability to SARS-CoV-2 is uncertain.”
Your third citation was good. But it was limited. I basically said that if you wore a surgical mask all the time in a household with a sick child, it might help. But specifically said community use was not effective. ” However, clinical trial data on the ability of face masks to reduce respiratory virus transmission in the community are limited to 1 published prospective trial, which showed lack of efficacy (12). In addition, adverse effects of wearing masks (particularly respirators) may affect compliance and effectiveness (13–15)” In other words, when you have to wear a mask all the time, you frequently cheat.

I’ll be honest, when I got to the 4th citation, I was getting tired of seeing the exact same thing over and over. With that one, the writing was smaller and I just didn’t give it the time to look at it. But your first three confirm there really is no solid evidence that “wear a mask” in a public setting really works. The only masks that were found to be effective at all really looked to be surgical masks which are far removed from what most people are wearing these days. And some of the articles came out and said some of the masks tested were no better than wearing no mask.

JLeslie's avatar

I just saw on MSNBC that Trump said wearing a mask is patriotic.

seawulf575's avatar

Okay, it’s patriotic. But is it really effective? Trump can say it’s patriotic all day long…I don’t care. I still say there is no actual data that shows it is effective. ESPECIALLY not the way our society (and most societies) wear them.

JLeslie's avatar

Ok, just do it. Buy one that says MAGA or a US flag and join in. You can still complain that it doesn’t do anything.

seawulf575's avatar

Oh, I wear one because I have to. But I also still believe it does nothing. Here’s a thought for you. We have been really increasing the number of masks that are being worn. Many states have strongly urged masks and some have instituted fines for not wearing them. I am out in public every day because of my job and I can tell you I see most people are wearing them. So the wearing is way up. But the cases of coronavirus are also skyrocketing. So if they are really that great, why hasn’t the case load gone down? Even in the places that are threatening fines, the cases continue to skyrocket. See, I have the same view of sunscreen. Everyone screams about how you have to wear sunscreen to prevent skin cancer. And everyone slathers it on like crazy every time they are planning on being outside for any length of time. But if you compare sunscreen sales and incidents of skin cancer, the graphs are almost identical. If it really was helping, the more you sold, the lower the incidents of skin cancer would be. I even dug into the science on this and when my Nurse Practitioner step-son started quoting the rote response to always wear sunscreen, I told him of my view and showed him the science behind it. He had to agree with everything I said. There are GOOD sunscreens out there, but they are very expensive. He buys those now because he likes to surf and I can say they are good. But most sunscreens are not. Same thing with masks. There are a few masks out there that are probably actually good. But 99.9% are crap and only give people a false sense of security which results in rising cases of the virus.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 We will see if the places that were skyrocketing finally get it under control with more mask wearing.

In Florida mask orders started to be applied a few weeks ago. Cases seem to be leveling, hopefully they will start to go down. The mask orders are only in several counties in Florida, most counties do not have any such order. We had a lot of people not wearing masks. I went car shopping in Leesburg, FL and almost nobody had on a mask both sales people and customers in both Kia and Volkswagen. I walk in with a mask on and these sales people who want to sell me a $40k car don’t match me and approach me with a mask. Stupid. Obviously, I care about masks. My husband went in a store in Leesburg and same thing. I went to Porsche a few towns down and same shit! They want my business for maintenance and to sell me a $120k car. I drove up in a Porsche, obviously I buy Porsches. There are signs throughout the dealership to wear a mask, and yet the salespeople had no masks on. Republican part of the state. I went to Lexus and everyone had a mask on, I bought a Lexus. That county where that Porsche dealership just had a mask order put in a week ago. Leesburg is in my county, we don’t have an order.

There are lots and lots of people not wearing masks in Florida. Now, it is getting a little better.

It’s very difficult for dense cities that have apartment style living and public transportation. Constant close contact.

Soubresaut's avatar

@seawulf575

Take a look at what you just wrote. In April there were no tests available that would demonstrate that masks did anything at all and in May there were all sorts. [. . .] I’ll give you a hint…any valid test cannot be done in a month. Especially not on something like this.

I phrased it that way because I thought that was a quippier way of getting to the idea that the scientific consensus on how to respond to a merely-months-old respiratory virus will naturally be evolving rapidly. I didn’t mean to suggest that there were literally no studies in April, and a plethora in May, and I don’t feel that your interpreting my words that way is very charitable. (I would also add, here, that in other countries—especially those that dealt with respiratory epidemics from recent history that didn’t hit the US as hard—the scientific consensus already supported the efficacy of widespread wearing of masks; and some aspects of the delay in scientific recommendations of mask-wearing in the US were driven by non-scientific factors—political agendas, concern over lack of supply for hospitals, etc.)

For example, one of the studies linked by the article I shared above, the one that found “that unfitted surgical masks were 100% effective in blocking seasonal coronavirus in droplets ejected during breathing” (Howard), was published 6 days before the article you linked (which, coincidentally, also means the study was under way before April). But reading through studies takes scientists time, especially in the midst of a pandemic where countless scientists are working on conducting experiments and publishing studies to try and shed some light on the virus or on how we should respond.

And even your article talks about material selection, fit, etc are all key components on determining how effective a mask can be.

No it doesn’t. It links to studies that run experiments on different types of variables, and perhaps that’s what you’re referencing, but no, that’s not something the article I linked discusses.

What it does say: “There are numerous studies that suggest if 80% of people wear a mask in public, then COVID-19 transmission could be halted. Until a vaccine or a cure for COVID-19 is discovered, cloth face masks might be the most important tool we currently have to fight the pandemic.” [Note: in the article, the bolded words in the quotation are hyperlinks to studies].

And be honest…does any of the guidance we are given to “wear a mask” make any demands on any of those things?

The “demands” are simply to cover your nose and mouth with a cloth covering (you are right, that is not a very big ask; it’s almost as if it’s perfectly reasonable). But there is certainly plenty of “guidance” all over the place on how to wear one, and what materials are more effective for different purposes, etc. It seems disingenuous to conflate “demands” and “guidance” and treat the former as the latter. It also seems disingenuous to suggest that because certain materials may be less effective than others, that it’s no different from wearing no face covering at all.

Something I’m having a hard time understanding about your position in this discussion:

You seem to have an issue with people sharing videos where scientists are asking people wear masks, and/or explaining the importance of masks to a general audience, and/or showing visual demonstrations to try and help people understand how masks work at fighting the spread of coronavirus.

But these are all examples of scientific communication.

Experts in relevant fields have been conducting experiments, reviewing studies, applying their expertise, collaborating and consulting with colleagues, treating patients, etc., and are then turning to the general public and trying to explain what needs to be done in ways that can be easily digested by large audiences. That is not a bad thing in this type of situation.

Science is not only the presence of a written document titled a “study,” and studies are not the only way that scientists are able to communicate findings. (But it’s important to note that if you ask scientists, they say there are sufficient studies to support the efficacy of mask wearing). Dismissing experts’ recommendations because their speaking to the public isn’t the same thing as a “study” seems like a focus on the wrong thing here.

seawulf575's avatar

@Soubresaut My issue with videos of people recommending masks is that it makes no sense. AND it contradicts what sometimes those same people said about masks to start with. Fauci is a perfect example. He originally stated that wearing masks was useless and needless. There was a lot of hoo-haw about masks at that time. It was about a month later that he said, yeah, wearing a mask is better than nothing. Now, that could be construed as scientific communications. But really, there was no research involved. And his change of stance seems to be more politically motivated that scientifically motivated. So videos like that to me are suspect. But when you can show testing and see results and recommendations based on those results, THEN I see something of substance. Because most of those have to go through multiple levels of control, review and concurrence before being published. And every one of them that I can find say that there really isn’t data to support saying that masks do anything measurable. I have seen some that have tested some of the better quality masks that have to be fitted and tested by the user and those seem to work great! But how many of those are out there? Next to none. John Q. Public is wearing masks that look okay but don’t do a thing. Meanwhile, the people spend more time touching their masks, leading to potential contaminations. They feel better about themselves while wearing them so they relax social distancing a little. The masks aren’t worn correctly with the nose being poked out so breathing is easier or cooler. There are a 1000 and 1 things wrong with how we are attacking the mask situation and I cannot find the scientific support for how good they are

Soubresaut's avatar

@seawulf575

It sounds like your primary objection to the idea that masks are being recommended now is that not too long ago, many of the same spokespersons were saying the opposite (i.e., to not wear a mask)—and that apparent contradiction affects their trustworthiness in your eyes. Is that fair?

Do you feel you’ve already come to the decision that it is of no value for the general public to wear cloth masks? Or do you feel you are still open to evidence on this issue?

seawulf575's avatar

@Soubresaut If they had held to the story that masks worked wonders from the start, I might never have looked into it. But when I did, all I can find in the way of actual studies say that there really hasn’t been any studies into the efficiency of masks and that there is no real evidence they work. I have posted links to these studies and their conclusions. I have even challenged any and all to show me actual scientific studies that show they are effective. The only one that really came close was @gorillapaws. But when I look through his citations, either they are specific to one particular type of mask (such as a surgical mask) or they basically say the same thing my citations said or both. It bothers me that we are told to do something that has no real backing by scientific study whatsoever. In fact, if you look into this, you find that masks were first suggested back in 1896 to be worn during surgery. There was no study done, just a doctor put forth a hypothesis that it would stop infections during surgeries. No one really ever questioned it. When they did finally start looking at it, they came to the conclusions that they couldn’t find anything saying the masks help. But by that time it was so ingrained into most medical professionals that it became common practice. And most of them couldn’t tell you how effective they really are.
So now we have recommendations (and now orders) that we will masks at all times in public. It doesn’t actually say what constitutes a mask. It doesn’t actually say what it has to be made of or what standards it has to meet…just a mask. Here’s a test for you: Pull your shirt up and breath through it. Think you could blow out a candle through it? Probably. So it is really doing nothing about blocking you from transmitting a virus that is 0.1um in size. But you are wearing a mask. Now, combine that with people that constantly have to adjust their masks or wear them with their noses sticking out or pull them down for extended periods to let their faces cool down and dry off a little. If you spend any time in a grocery store you can see all these things repeated over and over and over again. But let’s say you go out and buy a really nice mask…something that would probably have the porosity that might stop the virus. The effectiveness of that mask depends on how well it fits. Do you wear glasses? I do. And I can tell you that even with a really good mask my glasses fog up with every breath. That is effectively all my breath venting around the mask. And as it exits, it gets into the air where it can impact others. So it’s a joke. A sad and demented joke and not very funny, but a joke nonetheless.
I am totally open to new evidence on this matter. Always. That’s how my brain works…I find out as much as I can and see how it all fits together. But as I have said, so far I can’t find anything that really supports the vague rules being thrown at us.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Wall of Text and nonsense !

Better check with Trump; he says you’re a PATRIOT if you wear a mask. Think Dr Fauci said or something like a couple months ago

Soubresaut's avatar

@seawulf575

Apologies for the length. This response got much longer than I had intended. If I do respond again I’ll keep it shorter.

The article I linked to was written by a data scientist well-versed in this subject, and his article linked to many studies (and true, not all of the links were studies—but the others were of scientists explaining concepts). I say that only because you’ve said that only @gorillapaws linked to studies that came close to showing masks were effective, yet in my previous response, I linked directly to one of the studies from the article I first shared. It feels a bit, from my perspective, that you are looking for reasons to poke holes into the premise that masks can be an effective tool against coronavirus, rather than earnestly trying to find out what we should be doing.

At what point, when you have epidemiologists, doctors, medical researchers, and others who have expertise in relevant fields who have looked at the handful of studies we have access to (and almost certainly hundreds more) saying “wear a mask, it will make a difference,” do you begin to reassess your own stance on masks? Especially knowing that neither you (nor I, nor anyone who has chimed in on this thread as far as I am aware of) are experts in this arena? At what point do you begin to wonder whether, because of their years of study in this field, they are seeing or understanding things about the data and the situation that you (or I) would not?

I’m only asking because it doesn’t seem like finding and sharing studies on this thread is a productive use of my time. Nor would going through the many studies already linked above with a fine-tooth comb to discuss here. You seem very ready to dismiss any studies that run counter to your current stance on mask use for not having, in your eyes, “tested fully” mask use against Covid-19 (which seems an odd benchmark for a months-old pandemic… it won’t be “tested fully” on any measure for years, will it?). At the same time, with me, you’ve returned to talking about the study that focuses on mask use during surgeries. Is this not, too, a very limited study? And is its applicability to the specific situation with the coronavirus not more limited than the studies linked by others which support the wearing of masks as a protective measure against spreading a respiratory illness? It seems to me very possible that these two things can be simultaneously true:

First, that in normal circumstances, whether or not a surgeon wears a mask during an operation is not the primary way a surgery patient may experience infection at the surgery site, given, among other factors, how much surgery leaves the more vulnerable internal organs uniquely exposed to a wide array of pathogens that are naturally present in the environment.

And second, that in the event of a novel-respiratory-virus pandemic, having people wear masks to reduce the amount of virus they expel into the environment for others to inhale into their lungs is an effective measure against the transmission of that virus.

There is nothing mutually exclusive about those two ideas. The one does not refute the other.

As for the limitations on what is being “required” from people—are you suggesting that the mandates should be more strict with their requirements? I would be surprised, since earlier on in this thread you seemed very against any mask mandate at all. But perhaps your perspective has changed on this. And if so, how would that work, practically speaking? (Honestly curious).

As for experts changing their stance on mask wearing (at least within the US)... there is much more that they haven’t changed their stance on:

- We need to take this pandemic seriously.
– We need to be doing whatever we can to prevent its spread from outpacing medical professionals’ ability to treat patients (and to do as much as we can to give the medical establishment time to develop better treatment strategies so that fewer people who do get sick die).
– Lockdowns/sheltering in place is the most sure-fire way to stop the spread, but it is not a permanent or even long-term solution. It needs to be used strategically—in the beginning, its implementation was to give us time to figure out and get in place longer-term solutions. Now its role should be shifted to be a back-up “hammer” of sorts that we can use in short bursts if things start to get out of control.
– Long-term solutions need to include: adequate testing, adequate contact tracing, and adequate social distancing measures that will help to reduce the spread.
– Social distancing measures have always included: increased physical distance between people, frequent 20-second handwashing, use of other disinfecting measures like hand sanitzer and the cleaning of frequently-touched surfaces, having interactions limited as much as possible and outside as much as possible, etc. Masks are not supposed to replace these measures; they are supposed to be an addition.
– N95 masks need to be reserved, as much as possible, for medical professionals because of the nature of their work.
– That a single person wearing a surgical or cloth mask will not be protecting themself very much—that mask wearing is more about protecting others.

I will end with this idea: It’s not necessary for masks to be 100% effective at preventing the spread for them to be effective against the virus. One of the problems with this virus right now is that its infection rate is exponential (every one person infected is, on average, likely to infect more than one other person). If masks can help to reduce that infection rate so that every infected person is infecting less than one other person (again, on average), we are winning. (It’s the story of a single grain of rice, where the virus is the woman, and we’re the emperor. I only mention this part now because I have ran into an article that can support what I say, so it’s not just some random person on the internet saying it).

seawulf575's avatar

@Soubresaut I went back and read your posted link. I apologize for not seeing it before and I applaud you for finding a study on it. A couple things I noticed about the study, though. First off, they are only testing one specific brand of surgical mask. This goes back to what I have said before: Not everyone wears those masks. Secondly, I notice that their study seems to capture the moisture coming through the mask and not from around it. That goes back to the other thing I have said…straight out of the mouth is not the only way this moisture can get airborne. Thirdly was the limitations they list for their testing. They readily state that part of the problem is that a large chunk of their test population showed no viral shedding even without masks. And those that did, didn’t show virus in exhaled moisture and aerosols. They even say that it might be that you would need prolonged contact with people (not masked) for the virus to spread anyway.
And then we get to the fact that people are not wearing masks correctly, are not wearing quality masks, are wearing masks that don’t fit right, etc. NONE of those things are likely to show any help from the mask. But that is what we are being told will help us. THAT is what I am saying. I could do a study of people wearing N95 respirator type masks that seal around the mouth and nose and that have to be fitted to the person. I’m willing to bet that would show a tremendous efficiency at knocking down the virus. But that doesn’t mean throwing a piece of cloth across my face matches that efficiency. And in the end, reality is rearing its ugly head again. More and more people are “wearing masks” and more and more states and cities are mandating it. And we are seeing more and more cases. So I’m thinking reality is telling us that what we are doing isn’t doing what we want.

jca2's avatar

@seawulf575: Despite mask mandates, many people are not wearing masks. They’re going to parties and barbecues and restaurants and all kinds of places where they’re not wearing the mask. They, like you, believe the masks don’t help and they won’t have their rights infringed
upon. They won’t live in fear! They won’t have the government tell them what to do. Don’t you hear that often? Lots of states are not mandating masks 24/7, or they’re offering excuses where people don’t have to wear the mask.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@jca2 I will not go to their funeral ! Too many people in funeral hall ! !

seawulf575's avatar

@jca2 There is one aspect of mask wearing we never really hear about, at least not as it was used in the past. Young people wanting to get together for sex. They want to get together socially so they can get sex. That doesn’t change. Remember all the discussions about mandatory insurance that covers birth control? Abstinence was scoffed at by the left. What was their answer? Oh yeah “Kids are going to have sex. You aren’t going to stop it. You have to just accept that. So you might as well keep it from resulting in a pregnancy.” Well, Kids are going to have sex. You aren’t going to stop it. You might as well accept it. The only difference in this argument is that when push for condom use instead of BC pills (or in addition even) was brought up, that wasn’t even to be considered even though it would prevent a lot of STDs. A health concern was ignored in favor of letting kids have sex that they are going to have. Well, welcome to 2020.
I have posted links to scientific studies that show masks people are wearing are likely not effective at all. And they may, in fact, add to the spread of the virus for a number of reasons. I can tell you I am in public places daily. I go to many grocery stores and convenience stores every day. I have seen the use of masks evolve over time. The number of people not wearing masks is far less than than it was even a month ago. But the problem is that those that are wearing masks aren’t wearing them correctly or they are cheap masks that don’t do anything. Or both. I’ve stated this over and over repeatedly. Masks are not the answer and never have been. If they were, even with people going to social events in small groups not wearing them, we would see a reduction in the number of cases. We have seen these same people gathering throughout this entire pandemic. But now more and more people are wearing masks at stores and at restaurants, etc. So more masks are being worn yet we see an increase in Covid cases. So either there is some other contributor or Masks are not effective. I can keep explaining this, but I can’t understand it for you.
As for people ignoring the guidelines, you can go back to the early days of this pandemic when you had Democratic leaders telling their constituents that Trump was wrong and that there wasn’t the threat he was claiming. Remember Nancy Pelosi urging people to attend the Chinese New Year celebrations? Remember DeBlasio telling people to just carry on normally with their lives…go out to eat, go to shows, attend the parades…they were all safe. These things were being said even after Washington state declared a state of emergency due to the spike in cases of the virus. Remember the Dems changing the social distancing rules in states to accommodate the George Floyd protesters? Gee, that was only a couple months ago…the virus was raging. So the Dems have a large piece of the blame in the attitude that masks are silly.

jca2's avatar

@seawulf575: In my state, Cuomo made sure to constantly tell the protesters to wear masks, and so did DiBlasio. I live in a state where the shutdown was one of the tightest in the nation, and we got through. Everyone bitched but now we’re sitting pretty, relative to the rest of the country.

Why is Trump now telling people to wear masks? Is that just political bullshit? Why are other politicians telling people to wear masks? Politicians from both parties – are they bullshitters?

Maybe, just maybe, the country will never agree on this. Some will stand firm in their belief that this is bullshit, we have our rights not do wear masks, the government should not tell us what to do, and we should NOT live in fear! Others will stand firm in their belief that we have to do what we can, and every little bit helps. Whether it’s not going out in public so much, not going to parties, wearing a mask, etc. it all adds up.

We can argue this all day, here, on Facebook, on other social media, on news channels, in coffee shops and other places, and we will all never agree.

Like Fauci said, masks have become politicized. I’m not going to convince you, and you’re not going to convince me, and we only have 24 hours in a day, and this is going ‘round and ‘round and we’re all going to turn into butter. I can’t spend my Saturday arguing with you, and I’m sure you can’t spend your Saturday arguing with people who just can’t understand, as you say, “I can’t understand it for you.” Maybe I’m just too dense.

seawulf575's avatar

@jca2 Why is Trump now telling people to wear masks? He has been doing that for a long time…pretty much as long as this has been going on. Remember he caught all sorts of flack for telling people to wear them while he wasn’t? So now he is wearing one more often and I truly believe that is political bullshit. He gets tested several times a day, as do those around him. Since masks are supposed to be to keep you from infecting others, his mask wearing is moot because of all the verification testing he gets. When he is giving briefings, he is more than 6’ from others anyway. See, we forget a lot of the entire story. You need to wear a mask if it is impossible to keep 6’ away from others. That is sort of always forgotten. And if you are with family that you live with anyway, wearing a mask when you gather socially with them out in public is likewise idiotic.
I agree with you that we will probably never agree with each other on this. I am looking for evidence that our bogus masks are somehow considered effective other than the politicized answer of “wear them for others!”. I haven’t seen that evidence yet. I have always been of that frame of mind. I need to understand things and if they don’t make sense, I have to question why we are doing things that way.

JLeslie's avatar

@jca2 The worst is the ones who see wearing a mask as a symbol of atheism. Quite a few no maskers I see online say things like, “if you are right with God you don’t have to be afraid,’ or, “I have faith so I don’t need a mask.” That is impossible to argue with. I know plenty of religious people who wear masks and say back things like, “use the brains God gave you and put on a mask,” but there is a select group of the religious who inject God into the mask issue. The seem to listen to all of that messaging about the Gates Foundation being evil, and Biden being in bed with China, etc.

jca2's avatar

@seawulf575: I seem to remember Pence visiting some sites without masks on, and Trump too. It was quite the scandal. Walking surrounded by other dignitaries, without a mask on. If they meant to be an example, that was not an example of wearing a mask.

You know what I found amusing? Recently, in a local supermarket, there was a cop stationed in the front of the store. Nobody went up to the cop and complained about wearing a mask. Everyone that I could see had their mask on. People like to act like big shots and bitch but when in front of law enforcement, they shut up and do the right thing.

@JLeslie: I can’t wait till the vaccine comes out and then the new rant will be about how it has chips in it for the government to track your activities.

seawulf575's avatar

@jca2 I seem to remember the left going crazy when Pence was having a hamburger with a elected official in Indiana. The left was screaming about how he wasn’t wearing a mask!!! How do you eat with a mask on? I guess its all about how you view things…or how you want to spin them.
As for the cop being stationed at the local supermarket, I think most people think mask wearing is a silly thing. That doesn’t mean they are willing to take the punishment to make a statement. I’m one of them. My job says I have to wear a mask at all deliveries, so I do. I think its stupid, but not worth losing my job over. But I can tell you I have seen several people that are not wearing masks and using the mandatory order to do so. The mandatory order says people must wear masks in public spaces unless they have a medical condition. So people that don’t want to wear a mask have started stating they have a medical condition. They are not required to prove it and it is illegal for anyone to ask them to. HIPAA rules kick in. To try forcing someone to disclose their medical conditions is illegal. As far as I can tell, the way the order is written, I could have an ingrown toe nail and consider that a medical condition. Besides, most people see the cop not as something to fear, but someone that is just doing their job and someone that can’t change the rules anyway.

jca2's avatar

@seawulf575: Of course people can’t wear a mask when they are eating. I was referring to Pence not wearing a mask at the Mayo Clinic visit in April.

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