General Question

crazyguy's avatar

Does it concern you that some vulnerable people may decline to take the COVID vaccine because of a lack of trust?

Asked by crazyguy (2043points) 1 month ago

CNN has a story today:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/04/us/vaccine-distrust-black-and-latino-americans/index.html

which basically says that some blacks and latinos may not take the vaccine because they are not convinced it is safe.

My question always is: would you rather risk catching covid?

I was an engineer and have full faith in science. How on earth can a vaccine made of a portion of coronavirus cause safety issues worse than the actual disease? Over 15 thousand subjects were tested with the Pfizer vaccine and a similar number were tested with the Moderna vaccine. Not one of the Moderna subjects caught a serious case of covid-19. And only one of the Pfizer subjects was serious. Nobody died. Yet the FDA is taking weeks to authorize the medication! After that length of review they should know all about the individual subjects!

If then they approve the vaccine, and some vulnerable subjects still decline it and catch covid-19, they better not expect any sympathy from me.

What do you think?

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49 Answers

JLeslie's avatar

I’m not concerned yet. A lot of people want to wait until more people have taken it. We don’t have a way to vaccinate everyone in a month anyway, so some people who are skeptical will likely come around.

Right now part of the problem is it’s not approved for children yet. So, you have children, about 20 percent of the population I think, AND people who are reluctant to taking the vaccine, so getting to herd immunity will take a while. We do have part of the population already immune from infection, but it’s relatively small.

Communities that don’t take the vaccine will continue to get sick and die. They also will likely eventually come around. My GUESS is the Pope will help to promote the vaccine so that will help in Latin communities. Obama and Harris taking the vaccine might help in Black communities.

kritiper's avatar

Sure. But they’re probably all Republicans.

jca2's avatar

@JLeslie: Fauci says “forget about herd immunity” if I’m not mistaken.

gondwanalon's avatar

Anytime a foreign substance is injected into a human body by someone with unknown skills with a needle there’s a chance of bad things happening.
-An allergic reaction to any of the substances present in the vaccine.
-The very remote possibility of the needle hitting a nerve or injecting the vaccine directly into a blood vessel.
-The psychology of the recipients is also an issue as crazy ideas get circulated like some sort of a tracking microchip being included in the vaccine.

I’ll take the SARS CoV-2 (China Virus) Trump vaccine as soon as it’s offered to me.

LuckyGuy's avatar

They are probably getting their news from facebook and conspiracy sites.

A simple false statement that vaccination can cause autism has denied untold thousands of children the benefits of the vaccine.

So, let’s start another rumor right now. “I heard that one of the potential side effects of the new Covid vaccine is male enhancement. As expected, the mainstream media denies this. ”

elbanditoroso's avatar

Concern? Probably not. Pity is more likely. People that ignore scientific evidence because of wacko clergy or wacko politicians deserve their own fates..

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

Not concerned for the the refusees. I am concerned for the rest of us. The pandemic deniers are wreaking havoc on us already, now they’ll have a new weapon. Anti-vaxxers have brought back diseases like measles that were controlled for decades.

si3tech's avatar

No. It does not concern me.

janbb's avatar

Once we get a functioning public health department, I’m sure there will be efforts to educate the public and encourage widespread vaccination. Beyond that, it will have to be what it will be. Hopefully enough people will get vaccinated that the toll on the system will be much less and some semblance of normality can return.

Strauss's avatar

It’s not just your typical “anti-vaxxer” mentality. The reluctance by some in marginalized communities when it comes to new vaccines has more to do with culture than with science.

Inspired_2write's avatar

My older brother sent me several links explaining cycles and cutoff numbers and this explains the reasons some who are “actually asymptomatic” and therefore could be released from hospital, rather than overloading the system.
So much confusion with testing results tested as Positive /false positive/ etc causes the reactions where people don’t want to be when its not necessary.

https://www.infectiousdiseaseadvisor.com/home/topics/covid19/ct-value-may-inform-when-patients-with-covid-19-can-be-safely-discharged/

In other words different areas rate when a person is infectious and have higher thresholds where its actually safe area.

janbb's avatar

@Strauss Yes, that makes sense. Some of them have cultural memories of being used as guinea pigs so their reluctance is understandable. Hopefully, they can be persuaded.

JLeslie's avatar

@jca2 He’s saying letting the virus get people sick to try to achieve herd immune is ridiculous. The vaccine quite possibly could get us to herd immunity eventually like what we have with measles and polio and many other diseases in America if it truly pans out to be over 90% effective and 90% of the population is vaccinated. There will still be outbreaks though. Random small ones.

Like I said, it will take a while to get there though. That’s if everything goes smoothly it will still take a while, probably a couple of years. Part of it depends on whether people will take the vaccine.

If the immunity wanes quickly then we will likely never have herd immunity, and I use 80% or more of the population immune. I know Republicans kept using 50%, but that not herd immunity in my book.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@Inspired_2write…if they are asymptomatic they won’t be admitted to the hospital. Why would they hospitalized someone who isn’t sick?

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie Let’s see. After over 30,000 (out of total study populations of over 60,000 for the two vaccines) received the vaccines and their side effects were monitored by an independent organization, there are people who want to wait to see how some of their friends do with it. Talk about anecdotal evidence vs scientific statistical evidence!

I truly hope some of the deniers catch covid and experience the side effects of that!

janbb's avatar

I read today that the scientists feel that when 70% of the population is inoculated we will be close to herd immunity.

crazyguy's avatar

@kritiper For once, my question was apolitical. However, I understand your need to tie everything to politics, since that is your expertise.

@gondwanalon I agree 100%. I believe in science. I am convinced that the probability-adjusted ill effects of the vaccine are at least an order of magnitude less than the probability-adjusted ill effects of catching covid-19. Therefore, taking the vaccine is a no-brainer.

@Call_Me_Jay I do not think the vaccine deniers can have much of an impact on those that do take the vaccine.

crazyguy's avatar

@si3tech How would you feel if somebody you care for denies the vaccine and then is unfortunate enough to catch the disease?

@janbb I am no longer concerned about eventually controlling the virus. My only concern is that somebody I care for declines the vaccine and then is unfortunate enough to catch covid.

@Strauss Whatever the reason, I just think the rationale for not taking the vaccine because of a fear of long-term side effects and risk catching a disease whose long-term sided effects are likely much worse, and whose short-term side effect may be DEATH, is fairly stupid.

@Inspired_2write I have heard rumors of the same thing happening. Once a patient tests positive, whether it is a false result or not, the hospital has no choice but to hold him/her.

@janbb A heartless response may be “Let ‘em learn the hard way.” If a person’s doctor cannot find his/her way clear to unconditional support of the vaccine, that person should seriously consider either getting a second opinion or permanently changing the doctor.

@JLeslie To me, herd immunity is an interesting concept, but of extremely limited value. The more important bit of information is number of new cases. I have no reason to doubt the efficacy of the vaccine. Therefore, if I take it, I consider myself protected. Since people I encounter would not know by just looking at me that I am protected, I would have to wear a mask in public and socially distance. However, I would worry about some behavior slippage because of the confidence inspired by your antibody count!

@

janbb's avatar

@crazyguy To your point, all the people I care about will be taking the vaccine. And my DIL, a nurse, may get it this month. But I agree that protecting myself and the ones I love is my major concern.

(And I don’t think you meant to address me in your second response addressed to me.)

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy Some people won’t believe it’s safe until the people they trust have taken it.

There are drugs that get through the riggers of phase 3 testing and then once out in the population new side effects are observed. That’s why we have a phase 4 and VAERS forms. I think of the 30,000 in the study it was 20,000 who received the actual vaccine, but I might be off by a few thousand.

It hasn’t been tested in pregnant women, I doubt breast feeding women also. Has it been tested in patients who have had cancer? Gone through chemo? On autoimmune medications? That’s a lot of people. I saw an oncologist yesterday who said he tells his patients never to take another vaccine, but since this one is mRNA he believes it should be safe. Is it? What about jellies like @jca2 who also can never take another vaccine, because she had GBS, can she take this one? I’m not sure we know yet.

We definitely don’t know what happens in 10 years after taking the shot. When trials take years you know more about long term effects. I don’t personally think it will be an issue, but some people might and it’s not completely irrational.

You’re right, if you took the vaccine your protected. Herd immunity won’t be a big deal for you personally then except that life gets shut down to some extent with the virus floating around and if anyone you care about can’t take the vaccine then they are still at risk.

kritiper's avatar

@crazyguy Well, if the shoe fits…

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie You say: “Some people won’t believe it’s safe until the people they trust have taken it.” Fine, But they should realize that some of the people taking the vaccine during the Phase III trials may be similar to “people they trust”. And trial data is less subjective.

I agree that Phase III trials do not identify all possible side effects. However, we do know that the short term effects of covid are much worse than those of the vaccine. And we don’t know much about the long-term side effects of covid.

Remember there were TWO Phase II trials done, one by Pfizer, and one by Moderna. Each one had at least 30,000 subjects. Half of the subjects received a placebo, the other half received the vaccine. So the total number receiving the actual vaccines was over 30,000.

I agree that there are types of patients that may have not been represented in the test populations, or who did not catch covid. Remember efficacy is calculated on the basis of actual cases of Covid. Since it is impossible to test every kind of patient, it is best to depend on the personal doctor who knows the chemistry of the vaccine and his/her patient.

I disagree with you that it is irrational to wait for a 10-year test. You may well be dead by then.

I do not think that there is a type of patient who should categorically not take the vaccine. If there is a pregnant woman in your family, I would advise caution and a long chat with her personal physician.

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy Ok, yeah, I didn’t mean people should feel they have to wait ten years. I’m just saying most medications and vaccines take longer to develop and get out to the public than what we are experiencing with this vaccine.

I would never take the vaccine while pregnant. I am speaking for myself only. I would completely isolate if I had to for the 9 months.

Are you aware of the Tuskegee Experiment? The fear of that still is alive in many Black communities.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

I do not think the vaccine deniers can have much of an impact on those that do take the vaccine.

There are a lot of immunocompromised people who may not get the vaccine. As mentioned above there are populations not included in the safety tests. There are millions and millions who will be in the last priority groups to get the vaccine.

My brother for one is immunocompromised because of the drugs he takes as a transplant recipient.

So yes,. anti-vaxxers can harm plenty of others.

Strauss's avatar

@crazyguy as @JLeslie said, Are you aware of the Tuskegee Experiment?

crazyguy's avatar

@Call_Me_Jay I think there is a clear difference between people who cannot take the vaccine and those who simply refuse to. Those who cannot take it are destined to exercise every possible caution until the country reaches herd immunity; to me herd immunity means that the infection rate is so low that the chances of running into a spreader is almost non-existent.

Anti-vaxxers can_harm people who _cannot take the vaccine for medical reasons.

However, my statement was “I do not think the vaccine deniers can have much of an impact on those that do take the vaccine.”

crazyguy's avatar

@Strauss @JLeslie Thanks for pointing out the Tuskegee Experiment to me. No, I was not aware of it until just now. Cruel, unethical, rather idiotic because it was random – there was no endpoint specified beforehand.

I think detail data about both the Moderna and Pfizer Phae III studies will be made available on or before Dec 10 (Pfizer data) and Dec 17 (Moderna data). I fully intend to go through it in detail, but do not expect to find any reason to not take the vaccine. I would hope that the FDA will also go through the data in detail and withhold its blessing if any problems are discovered. That being said, anybody who does not take the vaccine because of illogical fears will and should be left to their own devices.

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy You won’t get to herd immunity if a lot of people don’t take the vaccine. We still have outbreaks of measles and our country is over 90% vaccinated and it is an extremely effective vaccine, over 95%. Measles is even more contagious than covid and the outbreaks are relatively small (50–1,000 people) but that is with incredible immunity in the population.

In the US average flu cases per are 10 million to 45 million people get sick and about 50% of the population gets vaccinated and we have some immunity in the population without the vaccine to some of the strains already. With flu we are talking about a few strains moving through the population at once, so it would be like 3 covids, but still the point is still the same.

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie You are correct. However, the people who do take the vaccine will hopefully be protected. The deniers will learn as they see some of them catch the disease while vaccinated folks stay safe.

Strauss's avatar

@crazyguy If we look at the Tuskegee Experiment in context of the other racist things endured throughout US history by the African American community, we begin to understand the scepticism of that subculture concerning anything the “white” government is doing to/for the benefit of the population of color.

Personally I do not share that scepticism, and I gather that you do not either. Very few “white” Americans will. And I say that not as as accusation, rather as an observation. But I understand it. I am not a person of color. I have been in a family of color for almost 35 years. My children are by and large considered black, not mixed race. When I was growing up my dad had “the talk” with me. It was about sexuality. When my son grew up my wife had “the talk” with him, and it was about being black in a white culture. I could not have that conversation with him because I had never experienced being confronted by police solely based on the color of my skin.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

I think there is a clear difference between people who cannot take the vaccine and those who simply refuse to.

No kidding. The people who refuse are keeping the virus in circulation so it can infect those who can’t.

jca2's avatar

I know this is anecdotal, but it’s interesting. I have a black friend who is a former coworker, and she moved to a southern state. We’re friends on FB. She recently answered a FB question “Will you take the vaccine when it comes available” and she and most people on her thread, except for one who is a health care worker and will be mandated, will not be taking the vaccine. I am betting there are going to be a lot of people of color who will not take the vaccine due to being leery.

crazyguy's avatar

@Strauss I truly understand how you must feel. I was born and brought up in an African country, where we Indians were next to God and the White Man in terms of our national standing. So we had the Blacks to look down upon. At the time I did not realize the pain this would and could cause; however, I have pondered the question many times since I left the African country. I realize the Blacks in the US are treated much worse than the blacks in that African country. I can even understand their suspicion, sometimes open hostility, to anything the government wants them to do.

Therefore, it makes a lot of sense to me that blacks would look to their own for advice. Here is to hoping that the Pfizer and Moderna study subjects included enough color to make the results meaningful to minorities.

crazyguy's avatar

@jca2 I have an understanding of the friend’s position. However, that understanding will be strained if the actual data on the study subjects shows conclusively that the vaccine is beneficial to people of color and the side effects are no worse.

By the way, I am not certain that taking the vaccine can be mandated. It can be strongly recommended, and a vaccination certificate could be required for travel. However, I shall be very surprised if a workplace can require it as a condition of employment.

jca2's avatar

@crazyguy: One of my bff’s who’s a nurse in CT has to show proof of vaccinations in order to work doing her job. Vaccinations, titers, etc.

When I was in college, I had to show the same in order to attend classes (NY state).

Strauss's avatar

@crazyguy Here is to hoping that the Pfizer and Moderna study subjects included enough color to make the results meaningful to minorities.

Amen, brother! I also hope that the examples of some high profile people of color, such as Barack Obama and Kamala Harris can help in overcoming this particular suspicion.

snowberry's avatar

Personal experience has taught me to never trust the medical system. It’s always, always buyer beware.

Will I take the vaccine? Eventually yes, but I’ll do lots of research first. If I can help it, I won’t be the first in line.

crazyguy's avatar

@jca2 The only time I had to show my vaccinations was for overseas travel. But I can understand that vaccines may become as much of a requirement as masks.

crazyguy's avatar

@Strauss Earlier I wrote to @jca2: “By the way, I am not certain that taking the vaccine can be mandated.” I am beginning to rethink that position. I think vaccination may turn out to be more useful than masks, and those have been mandated in many states, and may, after Jan 22, be mandated throughout the country.

crazyguy's avatar

@snowberry I resist taking all medications because of their side effects, some short-term side effects are known, most long-term side effects are not anticipated at all. A typical Phase 3 study has between 300 and 3,000 subjects; The Pfizer and Moderna studies had over 30,000 each. That is why I think the vaccine safety has been proven over the study period. Longer term side effects cannot be any worse than those of covid-19.

Therefore, like I have said before, I respect the right of people to say no or to wait. However, I’ll never understand such a decision.

snowberry's avatar

@crazyguy when I was a young woman, I was in the United States Army Reserve. One day when I arrived for assembly, there were a bunch of medical people there. Our commander lined us all up and told us to roll up our sleeves because we were going to receive an inoculation. There had been no warning about this and as I thought about it I became more and more uncomfortable.

Eventually I made an excuse and slipped out of line to the ladies’ restroom. After waiting a few minutes I slipped outside and went to my car. I came back after the medical people were gone.

My friends who received that inoculation became desperately ill and were out of work for at least a month. Later I heard it was a flu vaccine.

That was just one experience. After many experiences with the medical system, I have learned to be very cautious. It has certainly paid off. As a result I have avoided taking many prescriptions that my doctors would have had me taking long term (and of course there are side effects). I have also avoided several surgeries surgeries that were recommended by my doctors. I’m 66, I don’t have arthritis, and I’m getting healthier without prescriptions or surgeries!

Several times people in the medical system have saved my life. But at the same time I’ve received very poor care in other situations. I have learned to advocate for myself.

I’ll say it again: Just because a medical doctor tells you something, doesn’t mean it’s true! Buyer beware!

jca2's avatar

@crazyguy: Google “swine flu vaccine Guillain Barre” and you’ll learn about possible bad vaccines and what can happen. If you google “Guillain Barre” you’ll find that the disease is no joke.

crazyguy's avatar

@snowberry I would never take any kind of medication without full research. Certainly the situation you describe would cause me nightmares.

Even for the COVID vaccine I will need more information. However, I’ll be convinced after tomorrow’s public meeting that every conceivable problem has been addressed. In that case, I may not look through the history of each and every member of the study group. Otherwise, I will.

crazyguy's avatar

@jca2 I did read about the Guillain-Barre syndrome, and I can fully understand why somebody with that disorder would not want to take the covid vaccine. I think what you have pointed out highlights the near-necessity of vaccinating everybody else.

JkrbyPlylsts's avatar

Honestly, no. It will be different for each person as we all have different paranoias, fears and anxieties. I’m one of those that weighs it all then goes ahead upon rational thought. Many fears often override rational thought, but it also is good to be cautious in life. Sometimes a wait and see approach helps.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Not in the case of Covid. “Wait and see” could get you, or someone else, killed @JkrbyPlylsts.

crazyguy's avatar

@JkrbyPlylsts @Dutchess_III I agree 100% with the Duchess’s message. There is no place for “wait and see”. Unless you are willing to move to the end of the line!

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