General Question

crazyguy's avatar

How likely is a Civil War?

Asked by crazyguy (2077points) 1 week ago

Biden beat his opponent by over seven million votes, about 81 million to 74 million. However, instead of striving for unity, Biden is propagating continued division in the country:

1. He is letting the Impeachment Trial proceed.
2. He is allowing the blackballing of not only acknowledged White Supremacists but anybody who may have supported them.
3. He allows bad-mouthing of anybody who voted for or may have voted for somebody other than Biden.

All three of his above actions end up alienating all people who did not vote for Biden. How much more can he do to push these people, many of whom own guns, to desperation, with no way out except a war?

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87 Answers

JLeslie's avatar

1) I don’t think the impeachment trial is up to him.

2) What do you mean by blackballing? What do you mean by anybody who supported them?

3) I guess he could calm this type of thing down, but it’s worth noting that when his press secretary is asked about the impeachment she says Biden had made a statement previously and is not going to discuss it anymore. Trump would play it up if he was President now and the attack on the Capitol had happened under a Democrat. Trump would have had cheering crowds saying “lock him up.” He would be creating mob scenes otherwise known as Trump rallies.

Was it you or a different jelly who I asked to imagine what happened to the Capitol if Obama or Hillary had been president. Think about it!

Let’s say Hillary had been president and Trump had run against her and won and she said for weeks the election was fake and stolen. Then, on Jan 6th when the certification of Trump winning was supposed to happen hundreds of Blacks and Hispanics stormed the Capitol, terrified and terrorized the staff, congressmen, police, and broke windows and people died. I just wonder what Trump and the Republicans would be saying? Don’t be a hypocrite.

It’s mostly parts of media who are talking about all people who voted for Trump, not Biden, not that I’ve seen.

YARNLADY's avatar

Look at this list of issues the U S has already survived. I suggest the current unrest is just one more item to add to the list.

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Demosthenes's avatar

It’s not.

Though there are definitely people who want one and keep talking about one and they tend to be on one side of the ideological divide.

Also it’s rich that Trump, the most divisive president of all time, and his supporters are now saying for the sake of “unity” there shouldn’t be an impeachment. Right, because unity mattered so much during Trump’s presidency.

Calls for unity are just so incredibly disingenuous that it’s hard for me to take it seriously.

filmfann's avatar

The OP question is phrased in the form of bullshit.
Unity doesn’t mean let treasonous traitors go free.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Good grief they expect people to just let the riot thing go,it’s in the past type thing no need for impeachment .
Gee did the right let the email thing go?
Benghazi?
Shit ole orange hair lost his mind about Biden’s kid working for that energy company still brings it up.

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stanleybmanly's avatar

Is this question truly a reflection of conservative thinking?
1.If Trump could not prevent his impeachment from proceeding, how is Biden to prevent it?

2. Biden is fanning the flames of disunity through not defending white supremacists and their supporters?

3.Biden MUST suspend the first amendment rights of those who bad mouth his opponents?

This is how we are supposed to unify the country???

JLeslie's avatar

Unity does not mean agreeing on everything, it means both sides are willing to LISTEN to each other and work together on issues where there is a common interest. Get away from an automatic opposition to the other party. The message is for both Democrats and Republicans, it’s not an attack on Republicans. If both parties want some influence on the issues of the day then they need to cooperate.

ragingloli's avatar

Imagine you live in a family where a daughter got raped by her father. And that several family members knew and encouraged it.
Imagine not calling the police.
Imagine the rape being swept under the rug, to preserve “family unity”.
Imagine being shunned and chastised, if you dare bringing up the fact that the dad is a rapist and several family members are rape enablers.

That is what this is.
A crime was committed, and you are advocating for the criminals to go unpunished, and the crime to be erased from the history books, all to appease the criminals, their accomplices, and their supporters.
Honestly, I am not surprised.
That is, after all, how the colonies generally handle the unsavoury parts of their history. From slavery, the civil war, the genocide of the natives, the Japanese concentration camps, it all gets white washed.

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crazyguy's avatar

@ragingloli You say: “A crime was committed.” Generally when that happens, even a murder witnessed by 100 people, a trial is required, and the purported criminal is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Impeachment is basically a political statement; the hard work is supposed to be done at the trial. As you probably know, a case for “Incitement to Riot” is almost impossible to prove, because the law requires that elusive “intent”. As you point out in your post, much more significant “crimes” have been “white washed”, presumably in the interest of ‘unity’.

@JLeslie I agree 100%.

@stanleybmanly The question reflects my thinking; and I am not associated with any conservative think tank (although I don’t expect you to believe it!)

Did I ever say that Biden should prevent a Senate trial? Did I say that Biden should defend White Supremacists? Did I ever say that Biden should shut up anybody?

@SQUEEKY2 I have no idea who you are referring too when you say ‘they’. I’ll take it that you are referring to me. I did not say “just let the riot thing go”. Biden cannot do that. He can express his feelings about that but realize that the trial, if and when it happens, will not be a slam dunk. In fact it will be impossible to convict anybody.

@filmfann: The term “treasonous traitors” is easy to apply but hard to prove. If you want the country’s resources and potentially important legislation to be sacrificed on a wild goose chase, be my guest.

@Demosthenes How would you define ‘success’ in the Senate trial?

@YARNLADY I scrolled through your link to the bottom and was gratified to find that the list did include the BLM-led riots in 2020. Yes, we’ll probably survive the current turmoil without a Civil War. However, what I worry about most is the return of McCarthyism, this time from the Left.

@JLeslie I agree the Trial is not up to him. The question should have said: “He is not discouraging” proceeding with the Trial.

Here are some examples of ‘blackballing’:

1. Simon and Schuster cancels Josh Hawley’s book contract.
2. The firing of Jennifer De Chiara from a literary magazine. Her alleged offense: she created a profile on Parler!
3. See
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/01/first-amendment-regulation/617827/
for more instances.

In his inimical style, Biden is trying hard to not antagonize the progressives. Let’s see how far he can carry the charade.

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LostInParadise's avatar

What is the ideology of the rebels? White supremacy? Putting children in cages? Destroying national parks? Denying climate change? Just what is it that Donald Trump stands for that is worth fighting over?

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy I’m not usually very into “cancel culture” but Hawley should be cancelled.

You know what this reminds me of, a husband who has a great sense of humor, tells his wife she’s beautiful, supports her in her goals and dreams, and also beats her to a pulp every so often. What does it matter that he’s good 90% of the time? If the worst that happens to Hawley is losing a book deal and he actually learns from it and changes, then he will have been lucky to have had that consequence. Probably, he’ll just self publish and have no real consequence and learn nothing.

He’s not really blackballed, he can go somewhere else and get published or self published. Publishing is not a monopoly or oligopoly that leaves no other choices for authors.

sadiesayit's avatar

From OP: “1. He is letting the Impeachment Trial proceed.” (my emphasis)

From above: “You say: ‘A crime was committed.’ Generally when that happens, even a murder witnessed by 100 people, a trial is required…” (my emphasis)

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kritiper's avatar

Define who the sides would be and I’ll answer.

KNOWITALL's avatar

If there is, it will not have anything to do with Trump.

Someone I used to know was arrested on fed charges for being at the capitol just this weekend. He’s out of jail, but he’s wealthy and lawyered up. We’ll see how it goes, I have no idea what he did exactly but he’s a hippie type with a family. Not a typical rabble-rouser.
So its not being swept under the rug.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

The National Guard is still in DC waiting for armed Fright wingers and Proud Boys to come back. That is when there will war – - – - provoked by the right wing.

Not by the current POTUS

stanleybmanly's avatar

@crazyguy what you are saying is that by not actively suppressing dissent or illegally intervening in Congressional business, Biden is somehow promoting division in the country. It’s bullshit, and preposterous on its face. His behavior is the exact opposite of the disgraceful fool he has now replaced. You and those dummies should be on your knees thanking the man for not exerting the vengeance he certainly might regarding you idiots. Like the fool himself you dummies don’t know when you should just plain S T F U.

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JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy Be nicer or some of your posts will wind up deleted, and all that time you took writing out your long answer will be for naught.

I criticize Democrats all the time too. I don’t know what Democrat you are talking about, but I don’t remember Democratic leaders rioting the Capitol because they didn’t like how a vote came out or encouraging violence. When Democrats have encouraged rioting or violence or even tried to disguise it as a joke I’m right there calling them out at the time from Kathy Griffin, Madonna, and Maxine Waters.

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JLeslie's avatar

Tonight on CNN Special Report at 9pm EST The divided States of America. I’m going to record it.

Zaku's avatar

Since the mods censored my more correct and deserving response to this question, direct answers:

“How likely is a Civil War?”
– Extremely unlikely. The military is not divided. The idiot treasonous civilians have no ability to wage actual war.

”... instead of striving for unity, Biden is propagating continued division in the country:”
– Entirely wrong. Biden has been staying out of it, while the crazy loser insurrectionist Republicans have been crying “unity” while still trying to get away with having supported an attack on the capitol and/or the lying sack of excrement ex-POTUS that incited it.

“1. He is letting the Impeachment Trial proceed.”
– Anyone who tries to obstruct justice toward that lying seditious violence-inciting corrupt dung-sack has NO BUSINESS saying others aren’t calling for unity!

“2. He is allowing the blackballing of not only acknowledged White Supremacists but anybody who may have supported them.”
– What do you (or the disgusting alt-right sources you got the talking point from) expect a POTUS to even be able to do that would get Twitter or Facebook to re-open Trump’s social media accounts, or get Simon & Schuster to publish a book they no longer want to publish?

“3. He allows bad-mouthing of anybody who voted for or may have voted for somebody other than Biden.”
– Utter nonsense. And again, what do you think a POTUS’ business or ability is to stop anyone “bad-mouthing” anyone else?

“All three of his above actions end up alienating all people who did not vote for Biden. How much more can he do to push these people, many of whom own guns, to desperation, with no way out except a war?”
– Those aren’t “actions” – those are the absence of attempting stupid notions that aren’t any business of the POTUS, and aren’t anything the POTUS can do anything about.

And, anyone who wants “unity” should be supporting our democracy against the seditionists (those who attacked the capitol, those who incited and supported and planned the attack, Trump, and people who continue to support, enable, and try to obstruct justice against those people), who are the actual people who have been acting against “unity”!

Darth_Algar's avatar

@crazyguy

So in a nutshell you want the President to..

- Interfere in a process he has no jurisdiction over
– Interfere in the business decisions of private companies
– Clamp down on the 1st Amendment rights of private citizens.

You Trumpsters still don’t get it. The President of the United States is not a king. He does not rule over his country. He does not have the power to do whatever he wishes. His powers are constrained by the law and by the Constitution (the bedrock of the law in this nation).

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Hey @crazyguy how’s this going to help ya?

Republicans are paying for billboard for Cruz, Hawley and other seditionists to quit !

”...newbie representatives Marjorie Taylor Greene and Madison Cawthorn, neither of whom seem to have any comprehension of the Constitution.”

Yellowdog's avatar

@Tropical_Willie What is seditious about Cruz and Hawley?

Democrats have contested elections every time they lost to a Republican since Bush/Gore in 2000. They also did the same to Trump in 2016. Nothing seditious about that. What Cruz was proposing is outlined in the Constitution, and all the Democrat-controlled House and Senate had to do was vote it down.

FYI Cruz was not there to ‘overthrow an election’ but to withhold certifying the results until a 10-day audit of Dominion voting machines—something the Democrats, obviously, would never allow, would vote it down. But the objections from several state legislators would at least be heard.

@crazyguy Didn’t you get the memo? The new ‘Civil War’ was lost. If they can silence your voice, deplatform you, cancel you, say these things are good, and change your vote, there’s really not anything left to do, When the Republicans refused to allow investigations and turned on Trump, there was nothing to stop the one-party autocracy that America now is.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@Yellowdog They supported the crazy M . . F . .ing theory that trump won the election (I’d say something about how STUPIDO the comment was @Yellowdog . . . . but you KNOW ! ! ! )

So reality is that several Republican congressional members were part of the attempted overthrow of the US government (I know you are crying that they didn’t kill Pence, Pelosi. Biden . . and any other Democrats) !

But FBI is looking at several other social media sites for people that ate subversive . . . .

Yellowdog's avatar

So… are you admitting that the assault on the Capital was pre-planned in great detail by certain dissident groups on social media, which the FBI is identifying—and not the Trump Rally that was held that day?

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SQUEEKY2's avatar

@Yellowdog are you really that devoted to Trump, or are you just trolling us?

Yellowdog's avatar

Read what?

The assault on the Capital was a pre-planned event. There were groups like The Proud Boys and The Oath Keepers involved. They had very detailed plans, and for unguessable reasons there was no security detail to stop them. Law enforcement if anything let them right on in.

Ted Cruz’ action was to halt the certification of Biden until a 10-day audit could be taken. He did not instigate the riot or attempt to overthrow the government, What he was doing was the same thing the Democrats have done for decades—try to halt or stall certification until an investigation is made,

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SQUEEKY2's avatar

Guess ole Orange hairs rally was just the starting line then huh??

Yellowdog's avatar

A mob attack on the Capitol would not work in overthrowing the government, and would not benefit what Trump and Cruz were actually there to do,.

To say that Trump incited a mob to attack the Capitol and overthrow the government, a way-out-there way of perceiving it, well, a lot of people like to say it, but it would not have benefited Trump and was a pre-planned event by certain right-wing dissident groups.

They even had planted pipe bombs the day before and had very detailed plans even of the tunnels and escape routs posted Facebook, They were shy about saying who they are and even taking selfies as they began to carry out the plan.

The Trump rally was a peaceful event and had an entirely different mindset. It was pretty typical of Trump rallies and since there were African Americans and Jews and Hispanics, there were no white supremacists welcomed in that crowd,

Yellowdog's avatar

Oh, and BTW—those facts are why so many in the Senate will not vote for impeachment, We know a lot more now about the mob attack—have arrested more than 200.

Like the first impeachment, there was no trial, no evidence, no witnesses, no assumption of innocence, no due process, The second one was a rushed effort without any protocol whatsoever.

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SQUEEKY2's avatar

Good grief @Yellowdog The first Impeachment the Rep/cons didn’t allow any witnesses to testify .
The second one was rushed because his term was ending ,and as you keep crying you can’t impeach a President after he has left office, well they Impeached him while he was still in office,it’s the trial that will take place after he is out of office.
For shits sake if it was a Democrat President that did what Trump did on the 6th you Rep/cons would be calling for the death penalty not ,lets just let this one go type thing.

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie I guess something in my last post rubbed you the wrong way. I have to guess what I said because the post is now gone. I think I referred to your duplicity in supporting the cancellation of Josh Hawley.

Here is a statement from the link below about the 2021 vote certification: “For those who have concerns about the integrity of our elections, those who have concerns about what happened in November, this is the appropriate means. This is the lawful place where those objections and concerns should be heard,” Hawley said.

This statement is taken from

https://ccheadliner.com/free/election-results-certified-hawley-objects-in-senate/article_656025f8-50e8-11eb-a899-03c78db2e93d.html

Here is a link to a story about what happened in 2017:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-congress/u-s-congress-certifies-trumps-electoral-college-victory-idUSKBN14Q25R

Here is a quote from the Reuters story:

“I object because people are horrified by the overwhelming evidence of Russian interference in our election,” said Representative Barbara Lee of California before being overruled.

As I recall, nobody tried to cancel Ms Lee!

crazyguy's avatar

@Zaku I am surprised the mods would censor anything you have to say on this board!

Per

https://www.npr.org/2021/01/21/958915267/nearly-one-in-five-defendants-in-capitol-riot-cases-served-in-the-military

the military was over-represented in the people arrested at the Jan 6 riots.

So your Point 1 seems to be untrue.

Your second point states that ” Biden has been staying out of it”. The President cannot stay “out of it” when his people (or the other party) are fomenting hate and division.

About letting the Impeachment Trial proceed, I already admitted (in an answer to @JLeslie) that the question should have said: “He is not discouraging” proceeding with the Trial. Something a President can do, and should do if he truly believed in unity.

I think what Biden should do is discourage the Cancel Culture that’s seems to be pervading society right now. Between 1950 and 1954, cancel culture was directed against perceived Communists and seemed to originate form the Right. Now it is directed against perceived Trump supporters (all 74 MILLION of them!) and seems to originate from the Left.

crazyguy's avatar

@Darth_Algar Yes, yes and yes. The President is indeed not the King, thank God.

All he can do is use the bully pulpit to assure moves towards unity, not further division, kinda like what I am trying to do on this board.

crazyguy's avatar

@Yellowdog I agree 100% with you that Cruz, Hawley or any other Senator who raised objections to the election counts was just exercising rights expressly granted to Congress members by the Constitution. Just like the Democrats who raised objections to the counts in 2017, 2005 and 2001. As for going forward, I am hoping that we can get a little more unity on this board (we have extremely intelligent individuals here). And that sense of togetherness will spread.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Why do still ask questions and stand on the “Right wing soapbox” answering half of the responses to your question ?

Asking for a non delusional friend !

Zaku's avatar

@crazyguy

1. A few ex-military cooks in the Capitol attack have nothing to do with the idea of the US military breaking up to fight a civil war with itself.

2. Sure he can. He’s doing his job, and his press secretary has been not commenting on the affairs of Congress or the Justice Department regarding the craziness.

3. Nonsense. When a POTUS lies like hell and tries to subvert and election with lies, lawsuits, and illegal manipulation attempts, and then inspires a mob to attack the Capitol, the correct response for the sake of national unity is to have Congress and the Justice Department do their jobs, which means investigating and prosecuting those crimes.

crazyguy's avatar

@Zaku “A few”? Actually a higher percentage of the arrestees were ex-military compared to the population at large.

If Biden chooses to stay out of it, his statements about unity seem disingenuous.

74 million Americans voted for the ex-President. A rather high percentage of those suspects some election shenanigans. At this stage of the game, you have a better chance at unity by letting it go rather than dragging it out.

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy They suspect election shenanigans because that’s what they were told over and over again by their leader. All other leaders actually responsible for the vote in their state said the opposite. You think all of those leaders are against Trump? Even the ones who voted for him?

How about for unity the Republicans should let the impeachment trial happen? Hear the evidence. I guess the Republicans don’t want unity. What do you think of that QAnon congresswoman Marjorie Greene? If Republicans want unity why don’t they denounce her? Republicans don’t want unity. Mitch McConnel tried to lead the way in denouncing her, but other Republicans are not leaping onto that train.

Zaku's avatar

@crazyguy ”“A few”? Actually a higher percentage of the arrestees were ex-military compared to the population at large.”
– “Actually”??? So what? What the %$@# does that have to do with the fact that the US military itself is not about to engage in a civil war with itself? What is your mental malfunction?

“If Biden chooses to stay out of it, his statements about unity seem disingenuous.”
– Only to a delusional Trump supporter.

“74 million Americans voted for the ex-President. A rather high percentage of those suspects some election shenanigans. At this stage of the game, you have a better chance at unity by letting it go rather than dragging it out.”
– Unity, to sane people, means unity with people who do not support the coup attempt.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Let’s dump this nonsense about cancel culture, and such hyperbolic claptrap as derision for Trump the equivalent of McCarthy red baiting persecution. Biden’s job is NOT to coddle and pander to idiotic Trump supporters. I don’t give a flying fk if there are 74 million of them. They are NOT going to be hunted and persecuted for their beliefs regardless of how moronic and repulsive their faith in our cognitively disordered openly scurrilous slimebag. If anything they should be ashamed to show their faces in public, let alone whine about some supposed abuse from Biden simply because he has yet to soothe them for being so fkn DUMB. THEIR FOOL PLAYED THEM FOR THE CHUMPS THEY ARE!! Biden is NOT required to apologize for it!!

JLeslie's avatar

Just curious, the Republicans who are against the impeachment trial moving forward, are they ok with the people who stormed the Capitol going to trial and being punished with jail time or whatever the judge assigns as punishment? Or, the country should let it all just slide?

ragingloli's avatar

What I also find telling, is that these calls for “unity” only ever demand that the other side acquiesces to their demands. No concessions are offered in return.

Call off and condemn the impeachment and trial. Stop criticism of white supremacists and their sympathisers. Force private publishers to print books they do not want. Investigate “election fraud” ad nauseum.
But will they, in return, condemn white supremacists? Censure QAnon conspiracist lawmakers that fuelled and abetted the insurrection? Admit that the claims of election fraud were always spurious, that the election was fair and secure, and that drumpf is a liar?

Forget about all that. They will not even admit, that the insurrectionists were drumpf supporters. At best, they will call them fringe group troublemakers. At worst, they will accuse all of them of being “antifa in disguise”.

They do not seek “unity”. They demand benediction.

crazyguy's avatar

@Zaku The US Military, for rather obvious reasons, tends to lean more Right than Left. Therefore, I fail to understand your statement. You can dive into insults, but that does not make you right. And, it does not bother me in the least.

You say “Only to a delusional Trump supporter”. I am just curious. To your way of thinking, are there any rational Trump supporters?

Since you consider 46% of the population insane, I wonder what exactly you mean by unity.

@JLeslie Yes. I cannot speak for all those who are against the impeachment trial moving forward. But to me personally, all lawbreakers should be tried and punished.

@ragingloli The only reason I personally want the impeachment trial called off is that it is guaranteed to be an absolute waste of time, since a conviction is not even remotely possible. I truly thought there were better things for the Senate to do.

If you truly believe that Simon and Schuster made a business decision to cancel its contract with Josh Hawley, have you wondered why the contract was signed in the first place?

I will admit that the claims of election fraud in Georgia were ill-founded based on the excellent link posted by @JLeslie. I never believed in White Supremacy or QAnon. I’ll never admit that the former President was a liar.

The so-called insurrectionists were not “Antifa in disguise”. Most of them were supporters of the former President. However, keep in mind that, just like in the BLM protests, only a small minority of the protesters were the rioters.

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy Everyone climbing on the steps of the Capitol, inside the Capitol, they all were at minimum crossing a line that was set up by security. That is an aggressive and threatening action. There looked to be thousands of people on Capitol property not just a few.

What do you mean you never believed in White Supremacy? You don’t believe it exists?

stanleybmanly's avatar

The Hawley contract was signed in the first place because at the time, it WAS good business. The contract was cancelled because it is NOW bad business and perceived (correctly) as such by Simon & Schuster.

stanleybmanly's avatar

If you will never admit that Trump was and REMAINS an inveterate liar, there is no hope for you.

LostInParadise's avatar

The verdict in the trial is not the most important aspect. Getting the facts before the public from both sides is much more important. The charge of inciting violence is a serious one, and we need to know the evidence for and against it.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

The GOP doesn’t have Moscow Mitch to block the starting of the trial. The trial should be great, I think stock up on popcorn !

I’ll watch it on C-SPAN.

Zaku's avatar

@crazyguy “The US Military, for rather obvious reasons, tends to lean more Right than Left. Therefore, I fail to understand your statement. You can dive into insults, but that does not make you right. And, it does not bother me in the least.”
– I for one am not writing here to bother people.
– If you fail to understand my statement, then you don’t understand very much at all.
– Hint: The military is not an organization that decides what to do based on the political leanings of the majority of its members.
– Being right-leaning is one thing. Being willing and able to engage in a civil war are very very different things.

“You say “Only to a delusional Trump supporter”. I am just curious. To your way of thinking, are there any rational Trump supporters?”
– Only if they haven’t been paying attention to what’s actually happened. People who understand Trump lied about election fraud and tried corrupt manipulation and inciting violence to stage a coup, and who still “support” Trump would only be “rational” if they were rationally pro destruction of our democracy in favor of a self-serving scumbag.

“Since you consider 46% of the population insane, I wonder what exactly you mean by unity.”
– Trump’s current approval rating is more like 29%, and I’m sure a good chunk of the people responding that way are not people who actually approve the coup attempt. And even if they are, they need to understand that attacking the Capitol is a serious crime, and no, no lawful American is interested in allowing attacks on our government for the sake of some farcical notion of “unity” with people who are in favor of overthrowing the government – no, we want “unity” that looks like such people admitting things like:

* attacking the Capitol was criminal
* Trump encouraged the crowd to go fight, and then did nothing to dissuade the attackers
* various other people in government were also involved in supporting the attack
* Trump trying to get other government officials to falsify vote counts and “find votes” was criminal
* Trump was lying about knowing about any significant voter fraud
* there is no evidence of significant voter fraud in the 2021 election
* no one should support Trump in any of that undemocratic and largely illegal activity
* all that ought to be objectively investigated and prosecuted
* given all that (and perhaps the myriad other things Trump did when in office) Trump should not be “supported” at this point

Agree to those basic points of lawful decency, and then we’ll be interested in “unity”.

YARNLADY's avatar

Trump made over 20,000 verifiable lies, (ball park number). The crowd at his inauguration was the biggest ever. Corona virus is a hoax. CV is just like the flu. The “head of the Boy Scouts” called me. I am the one who got Veterans Choice. Windmill noise causes cancer. I was named Michigan’s Man Of the Year. The election was a fraud.—Just to name a few

crazyguy's avatar

@YARNLADY That is a common trait of people who speak from the heart. Unlike Obama.

I am yet to find a lie that caused long-term harm.

crazyguy's avatar

@Zaku – I for one am not writing here to bother people.

Then why do you throw a few insults into every post?

The military is not an organization that decides what to do based on the political leanings of the majority of its members.

True. But where do you think the colonels and generals come from?

Being right-leaning is one thing. Being willing and able to engage in a civil war are very very different things.

Another truism. However, if the Democrats keep pushing Cancel Culture to the level attained by McCarthyism, all bets are off.

In answer to my question about whether there are any rational Trump supporters, your answer was:

Only if they haven’t been paying attention to what’s actually happened. People who understand Trump lied about election fraud and tried corrupt manipulation and inciting violence to stage a coup, and who still “support” Trump would only be “rational” if they were rationally pro destruction of our democracy in favor of a self-serving scumbag.

So basically, you just called somewhere between 29% and 46% of Americans irrational. WOW! That is at least 100 million people.

I’m sure a good chunk of the people responding that way are not people who actually approve the coup attempt.

I am sure no American approves of a coup in the US. And they all want the perpetrators tried and punished. But they also want the perpetrators in the BLM riots/looting/arson tried and punished. Is that asking too much?

we want “unity” that looks like such people admitting things like:

I will not repeat your list of sins that Trump supporters have to confess to before you consider “unity” in this country. You are not advocating unity with disagreements, you want a guilty plea! GOOD LUCK, my friend.

crazyguy's avatar

@LostInParadise I agree 100%. The accused has to be assumed innocent until proven guilty. However, all partisans have already made up their minds, so the trial will be a farce.

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie What I meant was that I am not a White Supremacists and do not support them.

Everyone climbing on the steps of the Capitol, inside the Capitol, they all were at minimum crossing a line that was set up by security.

They broke the law. They should be arrested, tried and punished.

What do you think should happen to lawbreakers at the BLM/Antifa protests?

Response moderated (Flame-Bait)
JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy I have said it many times over the last 5 years, anyone rioting, setting fires, violence, trespassing should be arrested. I said it when people were setting fires in the streets during Elian Gonsalez (That was Republicans by the way blocking traffic and setting fires) I said it when it was happening several years ago on campuses to stop speakers like Ann Coulter. I have been consistent for many many years. The only exception I might make was the night in Minneapolis after George Floyd’s death when they set fire to the police department. I don’t approve of what happened, but I have empathy for the reaction. Setting fire to the other businesses nearby I am completely without empathy, what sense does that make? It is just destruction.

Strauss's avatar

@crazyguy I am yet to find a lie that caused long-term harm.

You don’t think any of his lies concerning the coronavirus pandemic contributed to the death toll?

His constant lies about election integrity, shouted through the sycophantic echo chamber of right-wing politicians and “news” media eroded the faith of many in the election process itself, culminating in a seditious attack on the seat of government.

Response moderated (Flame-Bait)
KNOWITALL's avatar

@Yellowdog The procedures used to pass election law changes during Covid were not voted on in the state. That is seen by Dems as a technicality, not a constitutional challenge, I’ve read. Please correct me if you have a different understanding.

JLeslie's avatar

@Yellowdog I hope they are arresting the people who started a lot of the false messaging in the right wing terror groups. I can’t figure out why QAnon and other groups were able to message as long as they did. The CIA and FBI were working with social media, I assume when right wings groups were rioting and arrested they also had they computers confiscated. Any left wing militant groups the same thing. It seems like more should have done sooner, but maybe they were trying to get to a bigger fish as they say.

Regarding Trump, he definitely encouraged people to believe the lies, even if he did not start them. He encouraged the wingnuts. He encouraged anything that created a media frenzy. A president should not be doing that. He has a position of authority and people trust him, which makes him different than the average person with a microphone.

@KNOWITALL The governor in Florida made election law changes by executive order and Republicans have no problem with the Florida vote.

Zaku's avatar

@crazyguy “Then why do you throw a few insults into every post?”
– They’re not insults. They’re meant to communicate accurately my thoroughly-considered assessments on Trump, Trump supporters, and the arguments being presented.

“True. But where do you think the colonels and generals come from?”
– The officers who have the most experience, intelligence, and demonstrated judgement, integrity, dedication, competence, loyalty, obedience, maturity, leadership, military thinking and lack of corruptability and mental or emotional malfunctions.

“Being right-leaning is one thing. Being willing and able to engage in a civil war are very very different things.”

“Another truism.”
– No. That is not just a truism.

“However, if the Democrats keep pushing Cancel Culture to the level attained by McCarthyism, all bets are off.”
– So how much do you want to bet, at what odds, that the US military fractures into separate military units which wage war on each other?

“In answer to my question about whether there are any rational Trump supporters, your answer was:

Only if they haven’t been paying attention to what’s actually happened. People who understand Trump lied about election fraud and tried corrupt manipulation and inciting violence to stage a coup, and who still “support” Trump would only be “rational” if they were rationally pro destruction of our democracy in favor of a self-serving scumbag.

So basically, you just called somewhere between 29% and 46% of Americans irrational. WOW! That is at least 100 million people.”
– Well, no, I think the number is much lower, because most of the people who say they approve Trump have NOT been paying attention, and/or do NOT understand what Trump has done. Those people are merely ignorant.
– Many do not seriously try to understand the actual situation, and/or their news source is someone like Tucker Carlson
– But the quantity of Trump supporters, due to whatever flaws, is appalling and atrocious. The majority of the country (as Trump has never had a positive approval rating, even counting the Republicans who just say they approve Trump because of the only-two-party fallacy), has been appalled by how many people are willing to support Trump since 2015–2016.

* Though, on reflection, yeah, actually many people are more or less irrational about a great many things, particularly about politics (people with all political positions).

“I’m sure a good chunk of the people responding that way are not people who actually approve the coup attempt.”
– Yes.

“I am sure no American approves of a coup in the US. And they all want the perpetrators tried and punished. But they also want the perpetrators in the BLM riots/looting/arson tried and punished. Is that asking too much?”
– No Americans, huh? How about the ones that did it? How about the ones who enabled it? How about the ones who think we should give Trump a pass?
– The actual perpetrators in the BLM looting and arson? I think almost everyone agrees, yes. “Riots” is too much of grey flow into “protests”, though. And unlike the Capitol attack, people have been caught doing violence in the BLM protests who were not even part of the protests.

“You are not advocating unity with disagreements, you want a guilty plea! GOOD LUCK, my friend.”
– Indeed I do, and thank you for the good luck wish.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I was just going to add that I think Democrats and courts saw a lot of the voting changes as changes to allow more people their right to vote and changes to allow a large mail-in vote to be counted within a reasonable amount of time. I mentioned Florida, in Florida DeSantis changed counting mail-in votes from the precious rule of not being able to start counting until election to being able to start counting 22 ahead of Election Day. My guess is if the Michigan Governor made a change like that many Republicans would have gone insane with comments about how it is to make fraud easier. As a point of clarification I don’t mean you in any of my comments about Republicans on this topic.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie Sure, but he won Florida. Yes, it’s hypocritical but it’s a numbers game.
Basically he had to win three more states, which is what the lawsuits are challenging and I’m sure intended to do.

In order to reverse last week’s results and get the 270 electoral votes needed to win the White House, Trump would need to move at least three of those states into his column. He’s trying to achieve this through some combination of lawsuits and recounts that he hopes can flip the results. Experts say that would be a long shot in any one of the states and a virtual impossibility in several of them.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-10/trump-s-challenge-to-the-2020-vote-a-state-by-state-guide

PS I don’t identify as 100% Republican, so not taking it personally. My 2024 vote should be interesting though, as disgusted as I am right now.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I understand lawsuits and recounts are only worthwhile if they are worthwhile, which means being targeted only in states that would make a difference, but I’m talking about Republicans at large, messaging across right wing news stations, and messaging in social media groups. You already realize it’s hypocritical so we basically are in agreement, but I think most Republicans aren’t even aware that Republican states made similar changes. Maybe they don’t even realize there is any hypocrisy?

Plus, a state like Georgia is a Republican run state and most Trumpers don’t even ingest that fact, they just want to believe there was fraud. Gabriel Sterling risked his life in my opinion defending the results of the election in press conferences.

I see little air bubbles of sanity among some of the Republican leaders, the question is how many will go for what I believe to be the healthy oxygen for the party, rather than the poisonous gas.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie Yes, unfortunately we live in a sound byte society, where little to no research is done before emotions get the better of people.

sadiesayit's avatar

[Lying] is a common trait of people who speak from the heart. Unlike Obama.

I am yet to find a lie that caused long-term harm.

Political lies in the US are directly contributing to polarization and division that you extrapolate to a civil war. Would you not consider that harm?

LostInParadise's avatar

Some of Trump’s corona lies, which definitely caused long-term harm.

crazyguy's avatar

@LostInParadise The biggest lie about corona has been that we know anything. The facts have shown that we did not, and still do not, understand the disease, its actual infection tendencies and methods, and its choice of serious victims.

@sadiesayit I assume that you intend Political lies to mean lies told to advance a person’s political career. I believe every politician has been and continues to be guilty of that. Even the great Obama was caught in a few.

@KNOWITALL @JLeslie Love to read discussions between my favorite posters. You guys or gals try to issue opinions that are at least partially backed by facts.

That said, I do take issue with one comment by @JLeslie.

I believe that @JLeslie has admitted in the past (correct me if I am wrong) that mail-in voting is easier for committing fraud than in-person. Since most of the election law changes have gone in that direction, surely you can understand some degree of suspicion?

crazyguy's avatar

@Strauss Are there any undisputed truths about the coronavirus? I am not talking about political disagreements, I am talking about scientific and/or medical disagreements. If there is no absolute truth, what exactly is a lie?

As far as election lies, I have been trying for weeks to get a simple admission of (to me) a rather obvious fact. Mail-in balloting is more susceptible to fraud than in-person balloting. So far I think (I am not keeping an exact count) I have had 2–3 absolute NO, and one hesitant yes.

@Yellowdog As usual, you have illustrated your grasp of the whole issue. The only thing I would like to add is that there has to be a concession by Left-leaning posters on this board that mail-in balloting is more susceptible to fraud than in-person balloting. The easier you make it for people to vote, the harder it becomes to assure election integrity.

@JLeslie I believe you are the one poster with Left-leaning tendencies that has admitted the fact that mail-in balloting is more susceptible to fraud than in-person balloting. Therefore, can you blame Republicans from crying foul when most of the election law changes have been aimed at mail-in balloting?

crazyguy's avatar

@Zaku I have been saving you for last.

They’re not insults. They’re meant to communicate accurately my thoroughly-considered assessments on Trump, Trump supporters, and the arguments being presented.

Let me just give you some examples of what appeared as insults to me:

1. Only to a delusional Trump supporter.
2. If you fail to understand my statement, then you don’t understand very much at all.

There have been more on different threads.

_ The officers who have the most experience, intelligence, and demonstrated judgement, integrity, dedication, competence, loyalty, obedience, maturity, leadership, military thinking and lack of corruptability and mental or emotional malfunctions._

Agreed. To you those attributes mean they cannot possibly be Trump supporters. Are you ever wrong!

No. That is not just a truism.

We could submit this question to a vote, but I think you are intelligent enough to see that a statement that draws a distinction between right-leaning and engaging in a civil war iOS a rather obvious truism.

So how much do you want to bet, at what odds, that the US military fractures into separate military units which wage war on each other?

Absolute ZERO. Because I never bet on an outcome that I find distasteful.

Well, no, I think the number is much lower, because most of the people who say they approve Trump have NOT been paying attention, and/or do NOT understand what Trump has done. Those people are merely ignorant.

The exact number is not important. You have called millions of people irrational. WOW!

No Americans, huh? How about the ones that did it? How about the ones who enabled it? How about the ones who think we should give Trump a pass?

Come on, man!

The actual perpetrators in the BLM looting and arson? I think almost everyone agrees, yes. “Riots” is too much of grey flow into “protests”, though. And unlike the Capitol attack, people have been caught doing violence in the BLM protests who were not even part of the protests.

Either you are for violence or you are against it. You cannot have it both ways.

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy I absolutely blame Republicans for calling foul when there is no evidence of widespread fraud. Republicans were promoting scenarios that were extremely unlikely and LYING about things that supposedly happened regarding mail-in ballots. All sorts of falsehoods flying around. You so the video about GA, Trump and his men told bold faced lies about what was happening in that state.

The Republicans took issue with counting ballots that were mailed or received on time. They just didn’t want the ballots counted period.

I’ve said all along I’m fine with discussing best practices to protect against fraud.

Having voting rules that cause all mail-in votes to be counted in a day so then Republicans can try to say votes after Election Day don’t count, as one example, is disgusting.

When Republicans praise Governor DeSantis for how he ran the vote in FL (Trump did this a lot) and then criticize a “blue” state when they have the same rules or even stricter ones, that’s disgusting too. So, when the Republicans stop being disgusting let me know.

The Democrats didn’t push for more mail-in so they could commit fraud, they pushed for more mail-in so more people could vote. Think about that. Maybe you’re not very familiar with the voting history in America. I mean that seriously, I’m not trying to be obnoxious or condescending.

Strauss's avatar

@crazyguy what exactly is a lie?

A lie is one of the so-called “alternate truths” that were promulgated by the previous administration for political or personal gain at the expense of the safety of the residents of the U.S.

Mail-in balloting is more susceptible to fraud than in-person balloting.

Is that your opinion or do you have facts to back it up?

I happen to live in a state where mail-in voting has been the norm rather than the exception. As @JLeslie stated above, the voting history in this country is filled with schemes and laws to suppress voter turnout, especially in areas populated by folks of color.

The Republican party, along with supporters from the Religious Right, were big fans of voter suppression.

Here’s a U. S. history lesson for you from someone who was around when it was current events

Paul Weyrich (Google his name if you want) was a leader of the modern conservative movement. He told a gathering of religious leaders in 1980:
“As a matter of fact, our leverage in the elections quite candidly goes up as the voting populace goes down.”
You can see it here.

So it seems Republicans and conservatives have long had a vested interest in voter suppression.

sadiesayit's avatar

@crazyguyeveryone lies does not mean lies are harmless (nor does it mean everyone lies equally, or that all lies have an equal impact). Similarly, innocent until proven guilty does not mean a trial should not happen (especially as the assumption of innocence occurs during the trial, not as something preemptive). Your responses read to me as if you intend them to rebut what I’ve said. If I’m understanding that intent correctly, I think they miss the mark. While these responses are related to what I offered, they don’t seem to me to really address what I offered.

Zaku's avatar

@crazyguy The officers who have the most experience, intelligence, and demonstrated judgement, integrity, dedication, competence, loyalty, obedience, maturity, leadership, military thinking and lack of corruptibility and mental or emotional malfunctions.

“Agreed. To you those attributes mean they cannot possibly be Trump supporters. Are you ever wrong!”

- You’re shifting the topic. Your suggested that politically right-leaning people in the military meant the possibility of a civil war involving the military was realistic. Right-leaning is not at all the same thing as being a Trump supporter.

Especially not after attempting to steal the election through corruption, and then through inciting sedition.

Of the qualities I listed:

* experience, intelligence, judgement and maturity should help them recognize Trump as a corrupt lying sleazebag.

* loyalty, obedience, and military thinking should rule out both supporting corruption or a seditious coup, as well as any suggestions of starting a civil war.

“The exact number is not important. You have called millions of people irrational. WOW!”
– Well most people are pretty irrational around politics.
– And people who can’t tell Trump is what he is, and continue to support him even after his multiple attempts to overthrown our democracy, while claiming to be patriotic… yeah, extra-irrational or at least very ignorant.

“Either you are for violence or you are against it. You cannot have it both ways.”
– That’s a basic binary fallacy. Not to mention not really having anything to do with what I was wrote.

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