General Question

crazyguy's avatar

Do you believe Cancel Culture is real?

Asked by crazyguy (2767points) 1 month ago

Bill Maher thinks it is – see
https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/bill-maher-cancel-culture-gina-carano-chris-harrison

Almost two-thirds of Americans are afraid to share their political views: See
https://www.cato.org/survey-reports/poll-62-americans-say-they-have-political-views-theyre-afraid-share

Just remember that the First Amendment is written to protect us from the government. BUT if government mobilizes the majority that voted for it to “cancel” the rest, what exactly is the difference?

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102 Answers

elbanditoroso's avatar

No, not in the way it is being used in your question and in conversation.

I think that there has always been some level of societal disapproval of wacky and/or unpopular groups and ideas – you can go back to the McCarthy era, and the rounding up of Japanese during WW2, and the hatred towards hippie by the right wing in the 1960s and 1970s. Or for that matter, the ostracism of Viet Nam war veterans. And there are plenty of other examples.

So conceptually, there is nothing new about disapproval or negation of one group or another.

There are two differences today (2021):

1) the right wing has seized on the concept (and the words) as their slogan of the month. Half of them don’t know what it means, and couldn’t define it if asked. But they hear it on Fox and they figure that it’s something to use as a weapon against people they don’t understand in the first place.

2) and this is more important that (1) – it’s a stance that lets the whiners play the victim. By screaming “cancel culture”, they have the feeling of justification of their own craziness because they see their world view being attacked.

There’s a reason why the republicans / right wing / white supremacists (and yes I am lumping them together) are crying “cancel culture”. It’s because the world is moving away from their closed-minded culture and moving to a different and more egalitarian world, and that scares the shit out of them.

..and.. that fits into Trump’s whole MAGA philosophy which made his supporters feel like they could move backwards into the 1950s so they would feel more powerful as white Christians.

The whole ‘cancel culture’ shtick is the full circle of MAGA-ism – trying to protect the race-based and religious based dominating culture of the past.

The world as changed. Get with it.

Zaku's avatar

At the risk of providing an example that might fit your question’s criteria by getting deleted by mods, I might express the opinion that poorly-informed xenphobic and racist idiocy doesn’t amount to “culture”.

ragingloli's avatar

That depends on where you draw the line between unjustified retaliation and justified consequences.
In Germany, it is a crime to deny the Holocaust, and to glorify Nazism. You can be sent to jail for that for up to 5 years. Is that “cancel culture”
Children being expelled from school, because the school found out that their mother had an “Onlyfans” channel?
A teacher being fired for working as a stripper on the side?
CPAC (the conservative convention) cancelling a speaker because they “suddenly” found out he made antisemitic comments?
Someone being fired because they participated in the Jan 6th insurrection?

I think it is pretty easy to make the argument that Disney was justified in “firing” Gina Carano, because she actively damaged the reputation of her employer with her public comments.
The same is true for when Disney fired James Gunn for years old paedophilic jokes. He apologised for it, kept his mouth shut, and was later rehired, sure, but do you think that Disney firing him in the first place was “cancel culture”?

mazingerz88's avatar

White nationalism and its cohorts is the real cancel culture and when overwhelmed with just opposition cowardly counters with playing the victim methods.

si3tech's avatar

Don’t you?

Demosthenes's avatar

I believe it’s real, but as @ragingloli points out, there are so many potential examples of it that it becomes almost too broad of a term. Is it “cancel culture” to fire someone for any reason other than inability to do their job? Does a company have a right to protect its reputation and enforce its own rules (and fire people if they violate them, even if what they’ve done is not illegal)? A lot of what gets called “cancel culture” is just the equivalent of an audience booing someone on stage. It isn’t “cancel culture” to be poorly received or criticized. It’s just as “canceling” to say we can’t react negatively to someone or their content.

It’s not new for people to be shunned or blacklisted, but I think what “cancel culture” refers to is the relatively recent social media-inspired phenomenon of a public person doing or saying something stupid or “problematic” and then being removed from their job or having their reputation ruined (and often very quickly without much introspection). Sometimes I think the person deserves to be “canceled”, sometimes I think they don’t. I’ve always been someone who can separate art from the artist. I’m not going to stop listening to Wagner because he was an anti-Semite or stop watching Woody Allen because of the allegations against him. I think what alarms people about cancel culture is that often it involves allegations only (no proof of any wrongdoing), it involves the dredging up of old content that the person has since disavowed and thus perpetuates the idea that people cannot escape their past or redeem themselves, and the swiftness and ruthlessness with which it happens.

I should note that sometimes people have been un-canceled if the truth is on their side. Take James Charles. He’s a makeup YouTuber who was accused of “hitting on straight men” by another makeup YouTuber (apparently the YouTube beauty community is fairly toxic). He was being quickly and harshly canceled until he uploaded a video explaining what had really happened and even enlisting the input of the “straight man” (who turned out to be bisexual) who was supposedly so disturbed by his behavior. It effectively reversed his cancellation and made the woman who initially accused him lose followers.

Additionally, cancel culture’s effectiveness sometimes depends on how the person responds to the scrutiny of their problematic behavior. If the person has done wrong, then an acknowledgment and apology can do wonders instead of awkward justifications and doubling down; that usually only assures that they will be canceled more fervently.

Anyway, I’m rambling now, but those are my thoughts on this topic.

hello321's avatar

I somehow missed this…

@crazyguy: “Just remember that the First Amendment is written to protect us from the government. BUT if government mobilizes the majority that voted for it to “cancel” the rest, what exactly is the difference?”

I suspect you don’t have any interest in explaining what this could possibly mean, right?

stanleybmanly's avatar

Real or not—who gives a shit? To me it’s just another conservative appropriation of a gibberish expression on a par with “woke” or “fake news”. The internet platforms are crowded with dummies. The whole mess should be labeled the moronosphere.

zenvelo's avatar

The only people who are worried about “cancel culture” are assholes who don’t like people treating them as the assholes they are.

Bill Maher is a perfect example: he is an asshole to everyone and the gets all butthurt when people call him on it.

si3tech's avatar

@stanleybmanly Did “conservatives” erase gennders and pronouns?” Truly I wasn’t aware this was the fact. Enlighten me?

filmfann's avatar

Of course it is real. For example, San Francisco’s Board Of Supervisors just voted to rename 42 or so schools that had been named for people culture now chooses to be offended by.
Like Abraham Lincoln (Mean to Indians!) and George Washington (Owned slaves!).

Source

hello321's avatar

Note: While there is no “cancel culture”, there is “cancel culture culture”. In other words, there are people and institutions that make careers out of playing victim to a “cancel culture” that doesn’t exist. Bill Maher is one of those people. Fox News and conservative media sell this across all platforms.

Demosthenes's avatar

@filmfann And one major problem with that is that this kind of logic can be applied to anyone, even people you regard as heroes. You may be fine with canceling Lincoln or Washington and remembering them only for the bad, but there are few humans who don’t have cancel-worthy flaws (in someone’s mind). I see right-wingers trying to cancel MLK because of his flaws. “Cancel culture” can always be used against you.

sadiesayit's avatar

That’s an interesting article, @filmfann, thanks for sharing.

To the extent that things like what the Atlantic article described happen, I don’t think it’s productive. I’m not against renaming buildings—I would argue that figures like Lincoln and Washington probably have enough representation given their importance in US history, and I think that renaming buildings for the purpose of highlighting lesser-known historical figures could be a way to deepen our collective understanding of our past… but the way the process was described seemed problematic and also fairly absurd.

And, to the extent that there is intolerance to facing uncomfortable truths about history and historical figures, however that intolerance manifests (ignoring, denying, purging, deflecting), I again don’t think it’s productive.

When I try to understand where these examples of “cancel culture” come from, I can’t help but wonder whether they are a result of, or reaction to, a society that has been largely unable to recognize or discuss its own shortcomings, and which also has a long legacy of dog whistle politics. If the problems can’t be openly discussed, and if coded language is used in politics to promote unjust policies in sneaky ways, then overt and uncompromising rejection of anything “tainted” seems understandable—albeit shallow, limited, and ineffective.

“Cancel culture” as is depicted in stories drumming up fear of cancel culture? As a huge and existential threat? I think that’s exaggeration. I don’t see that actually happening.

I think there are more people who are trying to make uncomfortable truths things that we can talk about, understand, and address than there are people trying to somehow “cancel” those truths… and I think that the US is ultimately headed towards a more healthy understanding of its own past, but we’re probably in that awkward and angsty adolescent stage right now.

filmfann's avatar

@Demosthenes To be clear, I am completely against this nonsense. You cannot judge George Washington by 21st Century morality. The same with most of history’s icons. Who could stand up to that? I am a huge fan of Mahatma Gandhi, but even he would not withstand this kind of scrutiny.
What the SF BOS is doing is head shakingly stupid.

zenvelo's avatar

@filmfann It isn’t the Board of Supervisors (BOS), it’s the Board of Education (BOE), and the Mayor, London Breed, a woman of color, has told the BOE to know that shit off and work on something worthwhile, like reopening the schools.

The Mayor has the support of the BOS. There is a recall petition going against the BOE.

crazyguy's avatar

@filmfann That article is a great find. It describes what is wrong with what is going on right now in this country in clear, unambiguous terms. The problem with this kind of action is that it becomes a model for more similar actions; and, eventually, all opposing ideas are suppressed. The government does not have to do a thing; private enterprise is forced to follow for fear of being boycotted.

crazyguy's avatar

@Demosthenes Well said. What is happening now is akin to what happened before McCarthyism took full hold in 1951.

filmfann's avatar

@zenvelo You are correct. It was the Board Of Education, not the Board Of Supervisors.
I would not be opposed to renaming schools for famous local figures, but oh boy, that could bite them in the butt. Most famous City figures have a lot of skeletons in their closets.

hello321's avatar

Note how @crazyguy was unable to explain what he meant here.

JLeslie's avatar

I do. The last time I used the term I was informed by a uber liberal friend that I should not use a Republican term. I do think the Republicans use the term as a weapon, so I am fine not using the term, but I do think it is going on.

hello321's avatar

@JLeslie: “but I do think it is going on”

Right. What is going on? This mysterious “cancel culture” is both ubiquitous and inexplainable?

JLeslie's avatar

@hello321 They did it to Colin Kaepernick after taking the knee. Wasn’t he fired and ostracized from football?

Some instances you can call it boycotting instead of cancelling I guess. Chick-Fil-A, Goya, and now Publix.

hello321's avatar

@JLeslie: “They did it to Colin Kaepernick”

“It” is attempting to do a lot of work here. It’s failing, however.

@JLeslie: “Some instances you can call it boycotting instead of cancelling I guess. Chick-Fil-A, Goya, and now Publix.”

So, “cancel culture” = the occasional boycott? Is this really what people mean by “cancel culture”? I suspect not.

JLeslie's avatar

@hello321 What do they mean?

hello321's avatar

^ Exactly. Remember, @crazyguy can’t even define what “cancel culture” is. He’s also making statements about the first amendment and the government. “Cancel culture” has yet to be defined, and therefore we can safely say that it doesn’t exist.

Response moderated (Spam)
JLeslie's avatar

@hello321 I found this if you want to read about it. You must listen to and read the same stuff that my friend does.

Response moderated
crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie Let me give you a few examples of what I think ‘cancel culture’ is.

1. Josh Hawley’s book contract cancellation.
2. The firing of Gina Carano.
3. Letting go of Shane Gillis.

Just because a person made remarks years ago that are unpopular in current terms, s/he does not deserve to be sidelined.

If that is the preferred path, watch out for the canceling of Biden and other Democratic leaders, because they have all said something in their pasts that might be objectionable in today’s environment.

zenvelo's avatar

@crazyguy But the three people you cited as making “remarks years ago” made those remarks concurrent with facing a backlash over their bigoted stance.

Shane Gillis was dropped from Saturday Night Live because his anti-Asian remarks were recent.

Josh Hawley’s book contract was cancelled after he supported the overthrow of the duly processed election, and supported insurrection. He is a traitor. That all took place in January.

Gina Carano was dropped from the Star Was franchise after remarks she made in January. That wasn’t a “years ago” remark.

hello321's avatar

@crazyguy – Giving a few examples of what you think “cancel culture” is does absolutely nothing to define what you think “cancel culture” is. Nothing. Let me try to interpret.

@crazyguy: “1. Josh Hawley’s book contract cancellation.”

Simon & Schuster, a multi-billion dollar company, decided that it wouldn’t make enough money off Josh Hawley’s book, so they cut their losses and cancelled the book deal.

@crazyguy: “2. The firing of Gina Carano.”

The Walt Disney Company, a corporation with $65 billion in annual revenue felt that Gina Carano’s presence in one of their products would reduce revenue, so it fired her.

@crazyguy: “3. Letting go of Shane Gillis.”

NBC fired a guy working for one of its products, SNL, because they felt it would be better for their bottom line.

So, what can I make of these three examples and what you feel “cancel culture” is? It sounds as though you are objecting to capitalism. Let me repeat – you are objecting to capitalism. Period. This “culture” you describe is nothing more than huge corporations doing what they are supposed to do: maximize profit.

@crazyguy‘s “cancel culture” amounts to nothing but a rejection of capitalism. Am I correct? Is this what you had in mind?

jca2's avatar

There was a piece on Cancel Culture yesterday on the CBS Sunday Morning Show. I’ll see if I can find a clip.

elbanditoroso's avatar

@hello321 I think your response to @crazyguy was right on, for all the good it will do.

I go back to my lengthy statement up at the top – the context is important. The whole cancel culture thing is a fad that is basically MAGA in another package. It’s a different front in the “America was better in the old days” war.

ragingloli's avatar

Are we to conclude from @crazyguy‘s selection of examples that “cancel culture” can only happen to people who make right wing statements?

elbanditoroso's avatar

@ragingloli I think it goes the other way too – take the dismissiveness of the Right against Black Lives Matter and similar activities.

crazyguy's avatar

@elbanditoroso As I am writing this response to your first comment, I have a sense of deja vu. I am almost certain I wrote a response before. Perhaps I forgot to post it, because I can find no sign that it was modded off.

Anyway, here goes.

Of the three historical examples you gave, I believe the closes one is McCarthyism. Senator Joe McCarthy was not enabled by the federal government, but no attempt was made to stop his shenanigans. Private enterprise was not expressly enlisted, but co-operated under an implicit threat of a boycott. Does that remind you of what is happening today?

You found two key differences between today and the past:

1) the right wing has seized on the concept (and the words) as their slogan of the month. Half of them don’t know what it means, and couldn’t define it if asked. But they hear it on Fox and they figure that it’s something to use as a weapon against people they don’t understand in the first place.
2) and this is more important that (1) – it’s a stance that lets the whiners play the victim. By screaming “cancel culture”, they have the feeling of justification of their own craziness because they see their world view being attacked.

I am tempted to agree with 1) because I think blind adherence is not restricted to the left. #2 I disagree with. Perhaps there are losers on the right who welcome the excuse. There are also many, perhaps a majority, who are not afraid to present and defend their beliefs against all comers.

You go on to say: “It’s because the world is moving away from their closed-minded culture and moving to a different and more egalitarian world, and that scares the shit out of them.” I am alone in a sea of Democrats and have a very strong feeling that they have closed minds. Any argument does scare “the shit out of them.”

I strongly object to being lumped with white supremacists for two reasons:

1. I am not white.
2. I do not believe any race is inherently superior to any other race. There are ‘fine people’ and brilliant minds in all races.

hello321's avatar

@crazyguy: “I am alone in a sea of Democrats and have a very strong feeling that they have closed minds.”

You’re only willing to discuss things with Democrats. I’m not a Democrat, and you’ve been caught off guard, completely unable to answer my questions. You’re unable to find a Hannity quote to address my pushback, so you bail.

I’d still love for you to define what “cancel culture” is, other than your opposition to capitalism.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@si3tech Neither conservatives nor anyone else is going to reduce, let alone eliminate the necessity for gender or pronouns. I have no enlightenment for you regarding these beyond the proper spelling of “gender”.

hello321's avatar

Also, if you “strongly object to being lumped with white supremacists”, you might want to reconsider why you are lumping yourself with white supremacists (Republican party, Trump, Hannity, your supported policies, etc)

crazyguy's avatar

@zenvelo I am sorry, but are you ever wrong.

1. Shane Gillis made his anti-Asian remarks in 2018. Heck that is less recent than Biden’s promise to punish MBS.

2. Josh Hawley is a traitor? For doing exactly what Democrats have done every time a Republican won in the last 20-odd years?

3. Gina Carano is a rightist and makes no bones about it. Is that something not acceptyable any more?

JLeslie's avatar

I agree with @hello321‘s examples of corporations making business decisions, but I was talking about the public not a company. The companies react to the public. Plus, not all situations are equal. What Hawley did was outrageous and I am just fine with backlash on him. It is not bringing up the distant past, and what he did was awful.

Would you say the Republicans are cancelling Liz Cheney?

Are Republicans trying to say that only Democrats cancel people? That is crazy talk.

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie Josh Hawley raised an objection to the certification of election results in the joint House-Senate meeting. As you know, because I have pointed this out to you before, what he did was perfectly constitutional and nothing that has not been done before by Democrats.

Actually, I am not happy with how the Republicans are treating Liz Cheney. It would be the same as Cancel Culture if Liz were dropped by private corporations. That will not happen.

McCarthyism was an excess from the Right. The current Cancel Culture is an excess buy the Left.

crazyguy's avatar

@ragingloli Actually Cancel Culture is a term recently coined by the Right to describe what is happening in this country right now. Therefore it can happen only to people on the Right.

McCarthyism was practiced by the Right against perceived Communists. All it took to be perceived a Communist was a years-old statement criticizing the US. Shades of today?

hello321's avatar

@crazyguy – What kind of changes to the economic system do you recommend? We’re going to need to remove the market and the concept of profit, correct? Maybe instead of profit and growth, we can outline a list of principles that corporations must follow, regardless of the bottom line? Does that sound ok?

ragingloli's avatar

@crazyguy
But it does not only happen to people on the right.
Do you claim that when it happens to people on the left, it is perfectly justified?

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy If it can only happen to people on the right then I change my answer. It doesn’t exist. If the right can’t see the hypocrisy they put out there then I can’t condone a term they use. This is why I stopped using the term once I was corrected by my friend even in though I did think it was a phenomenon that was happening, especially across social media.

hello321's avatar

@ragingloli: “Do you claim that when it happens to people on the left, it is perfectly justified?”

No. I think he’s saying that corporations shouldn’t be allowed to cancel book deals or fire people ever. He supports all the people who get fired for attempting to organize and form a union at a workplace. He supports people maintaining their job even when they do things that cost the corporation tons of money.

We’re seeing the slow awakening of the anti-capitalist. @crazyguy and I are both anti-capitalist, but for different reasons. Right @crazyguy?

JLeslie's avatar

So, did the Republicans cancel Liz Cheney or not?

crazyguy's avatar

@ragingloli It does happen to people on the RIGHT only. The reason is simple. If you are in business do you want to retain a majority of your customers or a minority?

hello321's avatar

@crazyguy: “The reason is simple. If you are in business do you want to retain a majority of your customers or a minority?”

See?

ragingloli's avatar

@crazyguy
So what do you call what was done to Colin Kaepernick?

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie It can happen to only the rightists for one simple reason – they are the minority. Republicans cannot really ostracism anybody on the left because that person has majority support.

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie “Cancel” is a specific term that means “make somebody essentially cease to exist”. Republicans lack majority support among corporations to make that happen.

hello321's avatar

@crazyguy: “It can happen to only the rightists for one simple reason – they are the minority. Republicans cannot really ostracism anybody on the left because that person has majority support.”

Here’s where @crazyguy goes on to explain how the minority really won the 2020 election. Really good stuff.

crazyguy's avatar

@ragingloli Kaepernick is a hard one. What he did was a little premature, when the country was split down the middle with no clear majority on either side. He is clearly not ‘canceled’ for that reason alone.

In the 1970s right wingers in college were cancelled. That was one reason why I stopped being a leftist.

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy So, Republicans didn’t cause the football player who took a knee in a PEACEFUL protest to cease to exist?

They aren’t going after their own to cancel Liz Cheney?

Minority status has little to do with population size, and mostly to do with being oppressed. Are you going to tell me that the party that very recently had control of the executive branch and the Senate is a minority population and oppressed? WTH are you talking about?

In the 80’s my university was letting Farrakhan have speaking engagements. Is he the right wing?

ragingloli's avatar

So you approve of him getting cancelled.

What do you call what happened to James Gunn?

hello321's avatar

In case anyone is keeping track:

1. @crazyguy is now anti-capitalist
2. @crazyguy asserts that Republicans are in the minority, so when they won in 2016 it was due to voter fraud or some shenanigans. And in 2020, Trump clearly lost. All attempts to call out voter fraud was itself the fraud and an attempt to steal the election. (This is quite the reversal on his part.)

JLeslie's avatar

Fu**ing Christian Right (not to be confused with sane Christians) trying to say they are oppressed and in danger. Give me a break. Don’t go along with it @crazyguy! The WS hates you too. Don’t you realize that?

zenvelo's avatar

The biggest “Cancel Culture” move in the last year was the list of names read off by a former president at the CPAC meeting yesterday:

”...the former president drew louder applause for pledging to purge his Republican antagonists from the party.

“Get rid of them all,” he said.

Mr. Trump’s attack, and the enthusiastic response to his call for vengeance, illustrated the dilemma Republicans find themselves in.”

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie Now we are getting to the crux of it. Even when the Republicans had the White House and the Senate, they were the minority party. The Democratic civil servants egged on by mainstream media, did everything in their power to undo whatever the President wanted to do. In addition to mainstream media, the left wing had the support of Big Tech, particularly Twitter and Facebook.

@JLeslie You are too young to be even aware of injustices that a majority can unleash on a minority. I have personally witnessed the oppression of minorities in a country that I was born in, and the oppression of right wing students by the majority. You are too naive to think it cannot happen in this country, even though it is happening as we speak.

crazyguy's avatar

@ragingloli I’ll be perfectly honest – I had to look up James Gunn, because I had never heard of him.

According to Wikipedia, he was fired from Disney because of pro-Trump pressure. The “decision received criticism from many entertainers and journalists, including actors Dave Bautista, Selma Blair, Patton Oswalt, David Dastmalchian, Michael Ian Black, Mikaela Hoover, Mike Colter, Alex Winter, David Hasselhoff, directors Joe Carnahan and Fede Álvarez, comics artist Jim Starlin, musician Rhett Miller, comedian Jim Jefferies, Rick and Morty creator Justin Roiland, journalist David A. French, and Troma Entertainment founder and president Lloyd Kaufman.[51][52][53] Bobcat Goldthwait, who worked as a voice actor on the 1997 Disney film Hercules, responded to the incident by asking Disney to remove his voice from an upcoming park attraction based on the film.[54]” Contrast that reaction with the reaction that Simon and Schuster got for cancelling Josh Hawley’s contract, and you begin to get a sense of what I am saying.

crazyguy's avatar

@zenvelo All the Republican Party can do is rid itself of some individuals, who will doubtless find welcoming pastures elsewhere. Contrast that with ‘cancelled’ people!

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie Dear Friend, I hate to see you using 4-letter words. I wish I could convince you (and others) to look at your interests separately from the Bidens and Pelosis of this world. All they want is to keep winning elections; they don’t give a hoot about people like you.

All you have to look at is why they favor illegal immigration; is that for the benefit of their supporters, many of whom will find themselves in competition for jobs with the new arrivals? Nosiree, it is for their re-election 10–12 years from now!

LostInParadise's avatar

10–12 years? You can’t be serious. No politician looks past the next election cycle, which is every 2 years in the House and 6 years for senators and 4 years for presidents.

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy I grew up hearing the stories of my friends parents and grandparents who had numbers branded on their arms by the Nazis, or fled pogroms. My grandfather and great grandparents fled antisemitism and poverty. I’m aware of antisemitic shootings and threats to synagogues in America my entire life that probably were not on your radar What are you talking about?

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie I lost you.

Are you saying that the Bidens and Pelosis will save you from antisemitism?

crazyguy's avatar

@LostInParadise I do believe the DNC and the other denizens of the Democratic Party do take a longer-term view of the political landscape. I agree that a current House member is concerned only with his/her re-election in a couple of years and that election will not be impacted by a path to citizenship. However, I am certain that there are long-time Congress people who are concerned with the long-term future of the Party.

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy Not at all what I was trying to say. I was saying I certainly do know what it is like to be aware of being a minority and oppression. I did not live it myself, not in a significant way, but I certainly was aware of it, and it was my people, so I identified with the people, it was not just having empathy for some other group. I worry about telling people I am Jewish in certain situations, I worry when I am inside a synagogue that we are sitting ducks. I do think Trump has amped up the hate. What I was telling you was the WS hate you.

Not all Trumpers hate you, not even saying Trump hates you, I am saying a large number of Trumpers don’t want your kind in America, and that would be the words they would use, not my words. A political party cannot completely control who affiliates themselves with the party, there are racists in the Democratic party too, but when the leaders of the party are racist and encourage racism, that is a whole different thing. The leaders in America should be stating specifically their disapproval of racism and hate and of WS groups.

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie I agree with your latest post 100%. BUT I am lost about what it is doing on this thread, which is about cancel culture.

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy The mentality in at least part of the Christian community is that they are being cancelled. That the left wants to wipe out their opinions, beliefs, practices, and even their presence. That’s why I think the term works for them, it is an extension of what they already are being primed to fear. Part of this group is irrational and hateful, and you seem to be unaware of it, or that you might be a target of those same people. Don’t dismiss the people on January 6th as looney extremist who went to far and are just a few thousand people. There seem to be millions of people in the Republican party willing to go along with the hate to get what they want.

You wrote: @JLeslie You are too young to be even aware of injustices that a majority can unleash on a minority. I have personally witnessed the oppression of minorities in a country that I was born in, and the oppression of right wing students by the majority. You are too naive to think it cannot happen in this country, even though it is happening as we speak. I was responding I am not too young. I know oppression. I spoke up when the far left was trying to stop conservatives from speaking at universities, and I also speak up when the religious right tries to stifle the voices of liberals. I am equal opportunity on free speech. I do draw a line when it is hate filled.

There is no big majority, the US is almost 50/50. You see the Democrats as some sort of all powerful majority? Why? Some sort of big ugly monster? Both parties are using that tactic to scare people, don’t be so sucked in. Look at the voter rolls in your state, how many registered Democrats and Republicans there are. You will likely be surprised. You are in one of the more blue states, I think your state was even more for Biden than it was for Hillary, but thinks are ever shifting.

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie OK, I get it now. By my standards, you are young. But thanks for reminding me that you are no spring chicken.

I know full well that some Whites cannot stand any people of color. So, yes, perhaps I am being used also.

California has almost twice as many registered Democrats as Republicans (46.3% to 24%). That stat is a little misleading because, like me, some Republicans register as NPP (No Party Preference) is order to vote in both Primaries. The percentage registered as NPP is up slightly from 2016 (23.3% to 24%). See
https://www.ppic.org/publication/california-voter-and-party-profiles/

California is the BLUEST of BLUE. It is even bluer than NY. Silicon Valley and the Bay Area in general are so blue that you cannot find a person who will admit to being a Republican. How scary is that?

UC Berkeley is famous for its unfailing censure of any right-wing opinions. Believe me, McCarthyism in reverse is happening as we speak. Even as we pretend the First Amendment is sacrosanct there are opinions not allowed to be expressed. As far as I am concerned, the present government, by its silence on such abuses, is encouraging more.

hello321's avatar

@crazyguy: “you cannot find a person who will admit to being a Republican. How scary is that?”

Not very scary at all. They should be ashamed and embarrassed.

@crazyguy: “UC Berkeley is famous for its unfailing censure of any right-wing opinions. Believe me, McCarthyism in reverse is happening as we speak. Even as we pretend the First Amendment is sacrosanct there are opinions not allowed to be expressed. As far as I am concerned, the present government, by its silence on such abuses, is encouraging more.”

You are just being silly now.

elbanditoroso's avatar

I’m a little wary of someone bringing up UC Berkeley without also acknowledging the closed-mindedness of Liberty University and its ilk towards non-whites and non-Baptists in particular.

crazyguy's avatar

@elbanditoroso I am confused by your comment. Please elaborate.

sadiesayit's avatar

Silicon Valley and the Bay Area in general are so blue that you cannot find a person who will admit to being a Republican.

I live in the Silicon Valley/Bay Area region. That’s simply not a true statement.

crazyguy's avatar

@sadiesayit Perhaps your circle of friends is different from the college crowds that my two children, who live in Oakland, hang out with.

hello321's avatar

@crazyguy: “Perhaps your circle of friends is different from the college crowds that my two children, who live in Oakland, hang out with.”

You have college-aged children? Aren’t you 75?

crazyguy's avatar

My children are 44 and 42. Their friends range in age from 32 to 50, with a few outliers. However, the influence of UC Berkeley and other liberal college campuses is so pervasive that they may as well be attending college themselves.

hello321's avatar

@crazyguy: “My children are 44 and 42. Their friends range in age from 32 to 50, with a few outliers. However, the influence of UC Berkeley and other liberal college campuses is so pervasive that they may as well be attending college themselves.”

I’m 49 and never more than a couple of miles from a college campus here in MA. I didn’t realize I was part of the college crowd. Nice! I need to go buy some college sweatshirts. Also, we’re streaking in the quad tonight.

stanleybmanly's avatar

What passes for liberalism at Berkeley today is a joke compared to the school some 50 years ago. 50 years back it would have been impossible to obtain a degree in economics from that school as my daughter in law managed 20 years ago absent any study or discussion of Marx. Today’s conservative know nothings haven’t a clue as to just how successful their thinking predecessors were at suppression of progressive tendencies in the country. Too bad, because that very reduction has permitted the obtusely ignorant and slow witted to dominate and define every aspect of conservatism as these conversations vividly indicate.

elbanditoroso's avatar

“Obtusely ignorant”. @stanleybmanly I like that phrase. I will have to include it as part of my norma loquendi.

Response moderated (Personal Attack)
Response moderated
Demosthenes's avatar

Silicon Valley and the Bay Area in general are so blue that you cannot find a person who will admit to being a Republican.

Even if that were true, it’s not exclusive to “blue” areas and it’s an expected consequence of the infusion of politics with identity. There are areas of the country that are so red you don’t admit to being a liberal or to not supporting Trump unless you want to lose friends (even here in California. We have family friends near Grass Valley who are the only Democrats in a sea of Republicans. They keep their mouths shut when politics comes up among friends and neighbors or they will be pariahs). California is really not that blue once you leave the biggest cities. Orange County is super Republican, Sacramento valley, foothills, Sierras, all pretty red.

The state that had the highest percentage of voters vote for Biden was actually Vermont.

crazyguy's avatar

@Demosthenes Orange County used to be Republican. In 2018, the Dems took all Orange County seats.

sadiesayit's avatar

@crazyguy—A close friend of mine attended Berkeley. She never had a problem finding diverse perspectives or holding long conversations with people who had vastly different perspectives on the world than she did.

I don’t know what kinds of conversations your children are or aren’t having, but people voice political disagreements with each other all the time here. It’s a diverse, urban place.

crazyguy's avatar

@sadiesayit Perhaps my comment, which is of course restricted to my somewhat narrow perspective, was more general than I intended. However, many conservative speakers have not been allowed to speak at Berkeley. The University just settled a lawsuit which alleged discrimination on ‘major events’. See
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-lawsuit-ucberkeley/uc-berkeley-settles-lawsuit-over-treatment-of-conservative-speakers-idUSKBN1O22K4

hello321's avatar

Accused sexual harasser and overall bad dude, Governor Cuomo, is refusing to resign and using the “cancel culture” defense.

zenvelo's avatar

@crazyguy I live near Berkeley, and my son went to school there. The poor conservative students, the Young Republican snowflakes who invited Milo Yiannopoulos to speak were all butt hurt when people protested his presence on campus. But Milo wanted to speak, not to educate anyone, but merely to antagonize people.

And then when his pedophilia became public, Conservatives cancelled his ass.

elbanditoroso's avatar

@crazyguy wrote: Orange County used to be Republican. In 2018, the Dems took all Orange County seats

Let’s take the Occam’s Razor interpretation (the simplest answer is usually the right one).:

The Dem’s took all the Orange County seats because the republican’s weren’t representing the needs of the population. Extended: politicians were doing what they wanted, not what the people wanted.

What this tells me is that @Demosthenes stereotype (Orange County is all republican) is wrong.

hello321's avatar

@zenvelo: “But Milo wanted to speak, not to educate anyone, but merely to antagonize people.”

And doxx people.

crazyguy's avatar

@elbanditoroso That is indeed one possible explanation. However, based on the people of Orange County, I find it extremely unlikely. I am convinced ballot harvesting played a major part in Orange County.

However, proving that is impossible, and will be made even more so if HR-1 becomes law.

elbanditoroso's avatar

Typical right wing bullshit. Throw out an accusation “Ballot harvesting” with no evidence and make it into a right wing grievance.

@crazyguy you are no better than your criminal overlord.

crazyguy's avatar

@elbanditoroso You have now descended into name-calling and type-casting. Instead of admitting the following facts:

1. Current law makes it impossible to gather any evidence without court action.
2. We do not know whether the current laws were expressly designed to curtail evidence-gathering or not.
3. What we do know is that Democrats are reluctant to roll back any of the provisions that were specially enacted for the covid pandemic.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

North Carolina ballot harvesting is done by a GOP operative hired by the GOP candidate.

North Carolina GOP Operative Faces New Felony Charges That Allege Ballot Fraud

Republicans know how to “harvest ballots”! Leslie McCrae Dowless was hired because GOP candidate hear what a great job he did getting absentee ballots collected.

crazyguy's avatar

@elbanditoroso Further to my earlier response to you that was answered by a person who does not exist for me, I found the following:

1. The so-called GOP operative, Leslie McCrae Dowless, cut his teeth on the campaigns of at least THREE Democrats – Rex Gore, Al Leonard and Ken Waddell. He also worked on the campaign of William ‘Butch’ Pope, who defeated Gore in the Democratic primary in 2010.

2. I owe thanks to the person who does not exist for me. On this thread and others I have been continuously berated for not pointing out how mail-in ballots could be used for mass fraud. Here is how:
“Here’s what tumbles out of McCrae under the board’s questioning. He had some people working for him, getting out the vote — volunteers, McCrae calls them. The volunteers, though, were allegedly getting paid for each ballot they turned in. That is illegal. One of the voters who signed an affidavit said that Get Out the Vote workers came by and had her family request absentee ballots. But then they never received their absentee ballots in the mail like they were supposed to. Then, when the family went to vote on Election Day, they were told they’d already voted. In essence, McCrae’s getting accused of paying people to obtain absentee ballots, fill them out, and cast their votes on someone else’s behalf. That, for sure, is illegal. McCrae says he didn’t do anything wrong.”

Tropical_Willie's avatar

GOP operative ! Doing jail time for GOP candidate ! !

Everything else _”. . . people working for him, were allegedly getting paid for each ballot they turned in . .. ” is only interesting

No jail time in a Red state, what were the GOP thinking ?

stanleybmanly's avatar

The bandit’s criticism holds. Right wing bullshit is the valid assessment regardless of the efforts from the deranged atypical right wingnut, McCrae; who, by the way, perfectly illustrates my point regarding voter fraud. Rather than trotting out McCrae as the poster boy for rampant voter fraud, why not consider the REAL implications of his case?

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