General Question

crazyguy's avatar

Do you think we need a carrot for vaccination...and a stick?

Asked by crazyguy (2963points) 1 week ago

Here is a link to a monologue by a guy who, even though he is on CNN, has a thinking mind that is even more in agreement with my thinking than, say, Tucker:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT2vTrYk1tA

What do you think?

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49 Answers

rebbel's avatar

First and foremost, education, information is key.
If science is brought and taught in such a way that it excites students, so they’ll want to learn about it, there is already, in my view, a bigger chance that a bigger portion of the population won’t be anti vax.
There is too big a group, I get the idea, that think they can pray it away.

JLeslie's avatar

I personally know people who were afraid who are now getting vaccinated. I think the we need to be a little more patient with people who are hesitant.

I think vaccinations at job sites is better than doctor’s offices. Both would be best. I think locations at hospitals or with on site EMS should be published as having emergency services on site. A doctor’s office does not qualify. That’s how three of the people I know who were afraid gathered the courage. We specifically sought locations with an ambulance on site.

I’m not ready to put in rules at the government level that only vaccinated people can go somewhere, I think it will backfire. Maybe in another month or two we can revisit that. I do think people having a private party can do whatever they want.

Memorial Day weekend will be an opportunity to highlight communities getting sick and deaths because there is a low vaccination rate. The communities with little to no illness because of high vaccination rates should be pointed out, both areas that are known very Republican and Democrat areas places. I think that should be our next PR promotion.

I completely agree Biden’s speech could have been vaccinated only members in the chamber and no masks, and Biden make a point of it, but it is tricky right now because people only hear and see what they want to. Parts of the internet will interpret it that if they are vaccinated they don’t have to wear a mask, rather than everyone needs to be vaccinated to remove the mask.

zenvelo's avatar

I love that rural Tennessee wants “bodily autonomy” yet won’t allow it for women.

I understand the hesitancy, but the fears that people express are unfounded by any demonstrated risks. That’s why more education is needed.

And, @crazyguy you can see that CNN is fair and balanced, unlike your favorite fake news sources.

kritiper's avatar

A brownie would do better than a carrot.

kritiper's avatar

Not relying so much on the internet to make appointments would be a HUGE plus! Let’s get some PHONE NUMBERS OUT THERE!!! (I heard that 25% of seniors don’t know how to use the internet. My mom didn’t…)

JLeslie's avatar

It’s a fact there is no long term information for these vaccines. We just have information for other vaccines and other mRNA research. The decision is a risk analysis. Catching COVID has a much higher risk for ourselves and society, especially people over 50.

Typical M-F companies can have a Friday vaccination day and no need for days off. I’m all for a planned day off, but there is the Friday option too.

@kritiper Does your state not have phone appointments and first come first serve options? Even now when demand is lower? Even some of our prior locations that required appointments have converted to first come first serve either part of the day or all day. Also, I thought the FEMA sites were all first come first serve around the country.

flutherother's avatar

Neither a carrot nor a stick should be necessary. The vaccine offers a high degree of protection from Covid 19. That should be a good enough reason to take it. A second reason for getting vaccinated is to protect others as the more people who are vaccinated the less the virus is able to spread. You could think of it as your patriotic duty to be vaccinated.

kritiper's avatar

@JLeslie At first, no. ALL appointments had to be made via the internet. I finally got a phone number off a local TV station on about March 1st. And that one phone number was and still is about the only one!

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Easy-peasy an IQ of 100 ! No stick required the anti-vaxxers will be a smaller group by 2 to 10 percent at end of this year.. For starters.

JLeslie's avatar

Talking about carrot, in Florida the supermarket chain Publix gives a $10 gift card you can use immediately in the store when you get a flu vaccination. So, if your insurance covers the shot you get an extra bonus too.

I heard something about the government offering payment to people who get a covid vaccine. Did anyone else hear that

I don’t think it actually makes people get a vaccine who are afraid, I think it’s all just a perk. Maybe if someone is losing pay getting a shot, but most places you can get a shot any day of the week now.

seawulf575's avatar

Current data IS available for the Covid-19 vaccine. I searched the CDC’s VAERS database to see what rate of adverse effects are being seen. Here is an eye-opener: right now 14.59% of those vaccinated are reporting adverse reactions. That isn’t to say that is all that are seeing adverse reactions, but of the 800,000+ vaccines that have been given there are over 120,000 adverse reactions that have been reported. You can further search, if you wish, to find out what those adverse reactions are. But what I found very scary about that is when you compare that to other vaccines. We see most vaccines are very, very low percentage values (1% or less). The only one that comes close is the Flu vaccine which sits at about 11%. So right now Covid vaccines are causing adverse reactions about 30% more often than even flu which was the worst before.

jca2's avatar

In New York state, if you get the vaccine, you are given four hours of paid time off per shot. That’s a good way to incentivize people to get the vaccine. You can do it on work time, and with some extra time off (up to four hours).

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 It’s not an eye opener. We have always had the data that there are a lot of side effects. Just like any drug or vaccine you can look up the package insert and see the results from the trials; drug vs placebo. I think the side effect rate was around 30%, but I’d have to pull it up again. I’ve posted the pdf for Pfizer and Moderna multiple times on Q’s where people are asking each other about dude effects so they can see the statistics for the many thousands of people who took the shot in the trials.

This is the first time the public has been told due to about VAERS and they are self reporting in numbers never seen before. VAERS has been around for a long long time. Usually, it’s the person that administers the the shot or takes care of the person from a severe side effect who reports, and they don’t always report as they should. Lay people have always been able to self report, but most people had no idea about it.

No one reports they felt a little under the weather from the flu shot or their baby had a fever from the TDaP even though it happens.

crazyguy's avatar

@seawulf575 I was so surprised to see your response that I promptly went to the site you linked and downloaded the data.

As I expected, the data is misleading. I just looked at the number of days the symptoms lasted. To my immense relief, I saw that the vast majority of side effects lasted less than 10 days. There were a few that lasted (incorrect reporting) hundreds of days. Excluding those and the single digits left about 100 cases (I must confess that is an eyeballed number).

Now contrast the relative infrequency of serious side effects to the tremendous pain and suffering avoided by the vaccine. I think the decision is a no brainer.

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie Probably to the WOKE generation, a cash reward is more meaningful than the ability to get into major sporting events or to visit different countries. The carrot I had in mind was one of the following:

1. No masks.
2. Admission to sporting events.
3. Ability to dine out indoors.
4. Ability to fly without a mask.

crazyguy's avatar

@flutherother You said: Neither a carrot nor a stick should be necessary. I agree wholeheartedly. However, for those of us who are reluctant to take the vaccine, both may be required. For instance my son has decided to not take the vaccine because taking it will not change his lifestyle by one iota!

crazyguy's avatar

@kritiper Since vaccinations are given at pharmacies and other locations that can be easily reached by phone, I am confused about your answer.

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy I am not sure why you think the WOKE generation cares more about money? I agree no masks, sporting events, dining, theatre, are all good carrots. I think most places already have restaurants open don’t they? I don’t mind if flying requires a mask for a long time. I really like internist and pediatrician doctor’s offices requiring patients to wear masks also, even if covid disappears.

Most pharmacies will not take appointments for vaccination over the phone. Not in Florida anyway.

zenvelo's avatar

@crazyguy Please define the “WOKE generation”, as I believe you are using the terminologyin the manner is which it was co-opted by right wing media.

What you consider “WOKE” is absolutely not about money, but about treating people with dignity.

seawulf575's avatar

@crazyguy as I stated in my previous post, you can dig deeper to find out the specifics of those adverse reactions. But let’s think about it for a moment. When you compare the Covid vaccine to every other vaccine listed, it is well above them all.
As was already mentioned, there are many people that when they get a mild reaction they do not report it. There are another bunch that might have a fear reaction to a mild vaccine reaction and run to the doctor…who does not report it. But this sort of thing applies to every single vaccine. So the fact still remains…there is a far higher percentage of adverse reactions to these vaccines than any other vaccine in our nation today.

JLeslie's avatar

Oh lord. During trials EVERYTHING is reported. Every ache, twinge, stomach upset, nap, participants record everything every day.

Pfizer starting on page 20 https://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download Some reactions are well over 50% of participants.

Moderna page 13 https://www.fda.gov/media/144637/download

MMRV starting page 5 https://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/p/proquad/proquad_pi_4171.pdf

I looked up MMRV at random, you can look up other vaccines. You’ll see it’s not 1% reactions during the trials.

For any drug or vaccine there is reporting during the 3 phases, then there is reporting regarding the initial roll out into the market place (phase 4) and then there is always opportunity to report at any time after the phase 4 is complete.

The anti-vaxxers do not compare apples to apples and that’s who puts out all the anti-vax information you are listening to. They take things from one vaccine and put it on another, like that idiotic school in Miami that thinks people vaccinated will give other people in the school covid. Some vaccines do have the possibility of shedding virus, but not the mRNA, it doesn’t contain any virus! If you don’t like the mRNA idea or reaction results then you can always get the J&J, which is made in a similar way to many of our traditional vaccines.

When I was given my COVID vaccine I was handed information with how to report reactions. I’ve never been handed that before when I received a shot. People are being told to report. They usually are not told that. They usually are told what side effects to expect, and if they get them they blow it off as normal and no need to report.

Smashley's avatar

I mean, I did it for free, and because I love you, but I would have appreciated a carrot to snack on in the waiting area.

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie The reason I said WOKE generation was because you felt it worthwhile to mention a measly gift of $10!

No amount of cash will make me take the vaccine, but if I can eat at my favorite restaurant, I may be tempted.

I sure hope masks are not required on long flights, but, I know that will be difficult.

crazyguy's avatar

@seawulf575 You may have immunity because you already had covid. Therefore, in your particular case, you are perhaps ok to go without vaccination. For the rest of us, who have not been that unfortunate, the calculation is rather simple: Would you rather suffer a few relatively minor side effects of the vaccine, or would you rather risk catching the disease that may kill you or last a long, long time?

@JLeslie For once I agree with almost everything in your post. I think it is stupid to believe even for a split second that a vaccinated person can pass on the virus. Even if the vaccination contains a live dose, it is usually so dilute that it does nothing but encourage the body to produce antibodies.

crazyguy's avatar

@Smashley I also did it for free; however, the easy pickings like us are gone. And we don’t have herd immunity yet.

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy I think the $10 is more an incentive for where someone will get their shot. I also think it might help people to get it sooner rather than later, but I don’t think it would convince anyone to get the shot if they don’t want it.

Meanwhile, the term woke puts me off when both Democrats and Republicans use it. Another weaponized word that everyone repeats. Current party line. I feel like everyone is become robots.

A friend of mine posted this on Facebook today. About the word. I admit to being ignorant about the history and current usage. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/republicans-are-crusading-against-woke-n1264811?fbclid=IwAR26OUMTc62TPWl-1COgUxsLi6Ojm52Bz4ZPy4T9FqEFDkknEjn5r_Ann9U

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie I think the $10 is more an incentive for where someone will get their shot. In other words, there is enough money in it for companies to compete with rewards!

I agree woke has assumed a meaning almost as broad as LGBTQ, and should not be used any more.

Smashley's avatar

I think I do hear a certain sense in the argument that at some point it will be more advantageous to public health to try and bribe the unvaxed hordes with maskless privileges rather than appeal to their better nature.

JLeslie's avatar

@Smashley I’m not sure how effective it will be, but hopefully that will help. Problem is especially in states like mine, masks are coming off anyway. Is this the Q where crazy and I talked about cruises requiring vaccination, that might help push some people. Vacation locations and maybe sports teams and possibly some schools.

So far I think one of the biggest pushes has been relatives who are vaccinated getting their reluctant relatives to do it. That’s what I am seeing here.

crazyguy's avatar

@Smashley If vaccination does not buy me any freedoms, and I feel that I’ll never get covid anyway because of my precautions, please explain the advantages to society of vaccinating me.

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie Here is a question my son stumped me with. Unless vaccination can lead to a change in my lifestyle, why would anybody want me to do it? My lifestyle is so cautious that I am no threat to myself or anybody else.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

“My lifestyle is so cautious that I am no threat to myself or anybody else.”

He goes nowhere and sees no one outside his household ?

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy Doesn’t your son want to go back to being with friends and eating out and not worrying about being too close to other people? Even if the mask wearing stays in place in public places, there is still our private lives. Weddings, game night with family, theatre, symphony, vacations, exercise class, pool parties, I don’t get it, is he a hermit now? I was cautious too, but I’m so glad to not have to be so cautious anymore and start having more fun again.

This is something I feel is misrepresented by Republicans. They make it sound like the police are arresting people in their homes and backyards for not wearing a mask, that is not the case, never was.

Edit: I guess the theater and symphony are public places, but is he being so cautious he is not going to any of these types of venues? Even with a mask I was reluctant, now that I am vaccinated I would go.

JLeslie's avatar

Here’s another. My friend’s SIL caught covid at the hospital when he was there for a diverticulitis attack. He came down with symptoms a day after coming home, and he gave it to his wife. He wound up back in the hospital for covid, he has a history of asthma. This was a month ago, when supposedly most of the medical professionals should have been vaccinated by then, so either it was an unvaccinated healthcare worker or another patient.

Another friend of mine, her husband caught it from a client. He was doing some handyman type work in her house. Your son may not be a handyman, but he might need someone to work in his house one day or want to go buy a car, or something that will be interacting with people.

Is your son going to always be able to control who he gets exposed to?

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie My son is a rather strange human. He is just 44, but sometimes says, he is more of a hermit than my wife and me. His fiancee is the same. They usually go to bed by 9:30, do not like alcohol, don’t hang out much with friends. He has a few very good friends; that part is like me. I have become a special friend to him in the recent past.

When covid first hit, he was one of the most prepared persons I knew. He gave me our first batch of N-95 masks that he had started stockpiling in February 2020. He had asthma from birth, and suffered from a pulmonary embolism two years ago. He has been extremely cautious about his health ever since he left home about 25 years ago. Perhaps he was always conscious about his health, unbeknownst to me.

He uses his own head and his own detailed research about deciding on safe versus unsafe behaviors. He has traveled in planes frequently and considers that safe. He is not allowed near his nephew (my daughter’s newborn) who lives about 10 minutes from his house unless he tests negative. He has taken the test at least 4–5 times.

He knows more about covid than most doctors that I know. He has very strong opinions (he makes me appear like a softie!) However, he is the most enjoyable person that I know. Even his eldest son who is 14 provides better conversation than most posters here.

He goes to family parties (generally outdoors). He hangs out with us and his fiancee’s parents indoors; he attended one wedding in the last couple of months (outdoors). He has no desire to go to the theater or a symphony. He exercises regularly at home, and loves beach vacations (he is a surfer). Don’t get me wrong; he is a fun guy with a very pleasant, infectious laugh who can charm the pants off most women he meets.

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie I have a feeling my son will get the vaccine when his kids can get it too. His eldest is 14. The other two are 12 and 11. So, if the Pfizer vaccine gets the FDA nod for 12–15 year olds, he may get vaccinated at the same time as his 11-year old daughter.

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy I see your son as I do a few friends of mine, he just needs more time and I think he will come around. With his asthma he is sort of higher risk, so it would be good if he was vaccinated. He is so into the research that he has to really believe it is the right choice and really his decision. It’s not irrational to not be one of the first people running to get the shot, but now months have past and the vaccines have proven to be statistically very safe, although there are some very rare bad consequences that have happened.

Maybe he is worried about a severe reaction or side effect from the vaccine, that might be the hurdle. Would he tell you that? That was the big hurdle with my friends and family member who were waiting. We just helped them feel comfortable. One of them had to take a Xanax to to do it. All of them we made sure there was EMS on site or it was done at a hospital so they believed they would be saved if they had a bad reaction. One friend of mine obsesses about the instances of bad reaction and side effects and some of what she is reading is propaganda about the the vaccines and doesn’t realize it is propaganda. She even is worried about feeling under the weather for a day or having a fever. That I don’t understand at all. Feeling a little sick for a day? So what.

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie I can see in your words that you are a fantastic, caring person. Thanks.

My son is not really worried about the side effects of the vaccine. He is more concerned with “So I am now vaccinated. Now what?” And the answer, I am afraid, is more of the same.

Smashley's avatar

@crazyguy – well, the facts don’t care about how you feel about your risk. Your personal risk may be low, but it is not zero. This might be the same difference to your outcomes, but on a macro scale, a policy of not requiring masks of the vaccinated will make more people contract the virus.

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy The husband of a friend of mine has been in the hospital for almost two months with covid and he is in his 50’s. He was intubated for weeks, and finally improving this past week. We went to high school together and it’s like my entire class has been sitting vigil on Facebook hoping to hear good news.

Your son says nothing will change, but what changes is he is less likely to get very sick. Are his children not going outside also? Not playing with friends?

crazyguy's avatar

@Smashley Every time you drive your car almost anywhere, you take a significantly larger risk.

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie My son lives about 400 miles from us and we see him an average of 4–6 times a year. His children love to read (and one of them is an aspiring writer), they love music and they have school. They may see other kids once in a while, but the risk is low enough that my son still hugs his children.

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy They homeschool?

Smashley's avatar

@crazyguy – Except a car accident won’t spread exponentially through a community. The risk to the population as a whole from people who assume they cannot spread the virus and refuse the common courtesies of epidemic control is not insignificant, at this point.

I agree that the gain from convincing some people to get vaccinated by greenlighting this somewhat risky behavior, might at some point outweigh the risk. I do not think that time is now, especially since mask wearing is really really easy.

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie They did, for a long while, thanks to Newsom and the Teachers’ Unions. However, they are back in school now, at least on a part-time basis.

crazyguy's avatar

@Smashley Here is a quote from

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/04/03/covid-vaccines-reduce-transmission-but-still-wear-mask-experts-say/4833945001/

“Recent results from real-world studies show the COVID-19 vaccines protect against asymptomatic infection, suggesting they also drastically reduce virus transmission.”

Good news about vaccines is so suppressed in this country that I had to really dig for that nugget.

Of course, the story escaped the censors because its conclusion is:

” But health experts still recommend wearing masks in public, regardless of vaccination status”

To each his/her own, but I WILL NOT wear a mask unless it is required.

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy The kids could catch covid at school.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

So if you son gets COVID-19 from all the interactions are you going to tell us ?

I don’t think so . . . .

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie Yes, they could. Except they are distanced and are required to wear masks.

After watching the Tucker show tonight, I wrote an email to my son. Tucker convinced me that the risk-reward calculation for taking the vaccine is not universal, but it is variable depending on an individual’s particular circumstances. So I am asking my son the details of his risk-reward calculation. If he responds, I’ll be sure to share his calculation with you.

Mind you, I personally am a strong believer in the vaccine, and have advocated vaccine passports, which are opposed by Tucker.

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