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SQUEEKY2's avatar

What do think would have happened if that mob on January 6th had actually gotten ahold of Mike Pence?

Asked by SQUEEKY2 (21369points) 2 weeks ago

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158 Answers

RedDeerGuy1's avatar

I think that they would have a mock trial. Then they would hang him.

Jaxk's avatar

Nothing. There may have been some pushing and shoving but overall the mob was not violent.

rebbel's avatar

Given him a wedgie.
And what @Jaxk said; it was a very sweet, peaceful mob.
Who accidentally threw fire extinguishers and traffic poles an what have you through the windows.
If you watch the videos, don’t be fooled by what you witness.
The anger and hatred in the mob’s eyes, was not that, anger and hatred, but concern, and care.

elbanditoroso's avatar

Some of the rioters would have been happy to kill him. No question about it.

We would have indicted the rioters for murder.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

That crowd was full of people with all bark and no bite. That said, any crowd can be dangerous. I doubt anything would have happened but you never know.

Sad day in America when the default action is to riot regardless of which side of the fence you’re on. Rational, mature adults have stepped aside and let sensation-seeking kids run these protests.

HP's avatar

There’s little point in predicting the behavior of an angry mob. How many peaceful outcomes can you recall involving open insurrections?

chyna's avatar

From watching the videos, you could not tell the rioters from regular visitors. I think most of them were carrying puppies and kittens.

elbanditoroso's avatar

If you were Mike Pence, @Jaxk would have wanted to bank on that?

It’s easy to pontificate with a distance of 15 months.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

What I saw on our news channels here in Canada I really doubt they would have just pushed and shoved him.

seawulf575's avatar

I’m with @Jaxk. The violence is a creation of the left. It was a protest that carried over to an area it shouldn’t have gone. It was FAR less violent than most of the BLM protests that degraded into real riots.

elbanditoroso's avatar

deflection, deflection, and wishful thinking.

jca2's avatar

They would have flattened him like a pancake.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

When the mob left; Mike’s mother won’t recognized him.

Demosthenes's avatar

Nothing. Not for the reasons stated above. But because these right-wing “militiamen” are all talk and they could not carry out the kind of revolutionary violence that say, Castro and Che Guevara carried out in Cuba. (To be fair, I feel the same way about Antifa).

filmfann's avatar

Just temporarily abducting Pence would achieve Trump’s goal.
Would they have actually hung him? I would like to believe the mob would have had a come to Jesus moment, but they were pretty committed to the other side.

Jeruba's avatar

I think they would have hanged him.

smudges's avatar

I think it’s quite possible that they would have killed him – not necessarily because they intended to, but because mobs can be very unpredictable. What can begin as a peaceful protest, or on a smaller scale, a fistfight with a couple of half-hearted punches thrown, can easily turn into full-blown violence.

Herd mentality, mob mentality or pack mentality describes how people can be influenced by their peers to adopt certain behaviors on a largely emotional, rather than rational, basis. When individuals are affected by mob mentality, they may make different decisions than they would have individually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_mentality

Jeruba's avatar

@smudges, exactly. A mob will do things that no one person in them would have done singly. I’ve read about mob behavior and how it takes on a life of its own. Afterward, people say things like they have no idea what came over them, or they never meant for it to go so far but they got carried away.

I think those January 6th folks were so worked up, so intoxicated with their own daring and so fired up with passion for their leader that they could have gone through with it, and probably would have.

mazingerz88's avatar

Someone answered nothing. Nothing? Would these rabid dogs allow Pence and company to count the electoral votes? Who would be President? You don’t see how this disruptiom by “peaceful protesters” can lead to more deaths?

janbb's avatar

I think we can all hold in our minds the fact that there was some rioting and looting at some BLM protests. I think we can also acknowledge that that has nothing to do with the subject at hand which is the violent attack on the Capitol by insurrectionists on January 6th. I would think true “patriots” would be concerned to learn what caused the seat of government to be attacked. The violence of that attack is indisputable as we all saw it unfold in real time.

Nomore_Tantrums's avatar

And they carried me, to the hanging treee. While Trump Sullivan, Master of Ceremonies, tells you “We have a really good shoe for you Ladies and Gentlemen”.

chyna's avatar

“Far less violent than BLM riots”? @seawulf575 and I must be watching 2 entirely different news shows. Jan. 6 was violent and bloody. And thank goodness they evacuated Pence and all others that would have been killed if they would have been grabbed by the rioters.

JLeslie's avatar

Anyone who says it was just protestors being non-violent has not watched the hours of video and so your opinion is uniformed and means nothing. I’m not saying there weren’t people there who just wanted to protest in a non-violent manner, what I’m saying is there were a significant amount of rioters there who came with the goal to physically fight and believed they were in an actual battle for Trump and the country. They believed they were taking orders from Trump.

I don’t know if Pence would have been killed, but I think there was a decent chance it could have happened. He definitely would have been man-handled and roughed up and terrorized. He was terrorized actually.

The rioters physically hurt a lot of people, and some people died. Pence was the key to keeping Trump in power in their minds.

If you were at a peaceful protest and rioters came and started smashing windows and destroying other property and going onto federal property or private property would you as a peaceful protestor follow the lunatics as they commit criminal acts? That’s when you stop being a peaceful protestor and become one of the rioters. If I see someone breaking windows and chanting kill Firstname Lastname, I’m backing up and running the other way.

kritiper's avatar

In the blind rage they were obviously in, they would have strung him up.

jca2's avatar

I love when right-wingers say it was peaceful and non-violent, meanwhile, you can clearly see on the various and numerous videos (many taken by them, themselves) they’re hacking at doors, breaking windows, chasing the employees up the steps, very proud of themselves (with the videos to prove it). Peaceful? Some here on Fluther will say “What about BLM? What about the protests of 2020?” That’s “whataboutery.” Google that.

JLeslie's avatar

Were the rioters who infiltrated the BLM protests going after people? This is a Q about harming or even killing someone. Did the BLM protestors follow the rioters into buildings? Destroy property? Trespass? Threaten lives? Anyone doing those things are part of the riot and are criminals.

The mob on Jan 6th came to stop the certification of the vote. Those rioters believed Trump was giving them orders, like soldiers. They say it themselves, it’s not our interpretation. Were there idiot ignorant stray people who just thought they were there to protest peacefully even in the midst of the violence and criminal activity, sure, but we are talking about the hundreds and thousands of people there who came for actual combat.

Spend a few hours and watch the many videos. Listen to the police who went through it. It’s not a simple still camera shot where you can argue the photographer made it look more crowded or worse than it was. There is hours of footage.

The footage of people just calmly walking through the rotunda is the cherry picked footage and only momentary.

JLeslie's avatar

Jesus, even Mike Pence said the mob “wreaked havoc.” Was he lying? Wreaked havoc is putting it lightly in my opinion, but Pence certainly isn’t saying they just were non violent protestors in the Capitol that day. Think about it.

elbanditoroso's avatar

Some people are so Trumpcrazed that they can’t handle the truth.

LostInParadise's avatar

They would have held onto him for as long as possible to prevent him from finalizing the election, which was the basic objective of the rioters.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Then why was the mob chanting hang Mike Pence?^^

SQUEEKY2's avatar

To say this mob was not violent is ridiculous, and the only one that was killed was this poor woman that the cops used for target practice.
This uprising was the result of more than one death whether they died at the capital or later makes no difference.
THey vandalized and looted, chased innocent people inside,and should be prosecuted to the farthest extent of the law , and that includes The Don Father.

JLeslie's avatar

That woman had a gun aimed right at her, she was warned to stop, and she proceeded to climb up to go through an interior window. It’s not like she accidentally stumbled and cops shot her. She was going after our members of Congress and/or Pence.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

@JLeslie I agree, but our friendly local fright wingers want to make it sound like she was just an innocent person.
Then want to deflect and say well the BLM protest were much worse.
Then to say that Capital police officer died of natural causes the next day, BARF!

mazingerz88's avatar

^^Wouldn’t it be a nice refreshing change if a right-winger post opinions that are not predictable Fox News diatribe?

SQUEEKY2's avatar

^^ Nice but never going to happen, to a fright winger EVERYTHING bad is the Dem/libs fault.
And all news except Fox is fake and on the liberal take.

Nomore_Tantrums's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 Bingo! Come onnn down!!!

janbb's avatar

@mazingerz88 Especially since most of the people testifying at the hearings are former Trump staffers and his family!

HP's avatar

That’s another significant fact concerning Trump that is neglected.. the wreckage he leaves behind regarding those who trust him. If you step back and count the number of people whose lives and reputations went down the drain through affiliation with the man, the numbers are staggering. I mean people of formerly unasailable reputation, now find those reputations in tatters. Giuliani, the nation’s 911hero is reduced to a pitiful joke equivalent to the fat man himself. Barr’s decision to apply his sterling bonafides and consideable intellect toward service of the devil destroyed not only that reputation but leaves him distinguished for disgracing himself and his profession. I was no fan of Jeff Sessions, but his political proespects are now nonexistent. The formidable list of those who find their lives and careers kicked under the Trump bus has no comparable comparison. Just as the contractors, businesses, municipalities wives and rubes swindled by the fat boy, NO ONE dealing with the man is shielded from inevitable wilful destruction at his hand. He’s his own plague.

chyna's avatar

^He even threw his own daughter under the bus.

mazingerz88's avatar

^^But these people are adults and the only ones to blame for their hunger for attention and power riding merrily on the coattails of a sociopath.

JLeslie's avatar

It’s being reported now that members of the Proud Boys are admitting that they planned to kill Mike Pence if they had been able to get a hold of him.

Nomore_Tantrums's avatar

And yet it was all a peaceful demonstration, no big deal. “Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive”.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

@Nomore_Tantrums It was just a few that let it get out of hand, uh BARF!
Trump was going to stop at nothing to stay in power lets hope they can prove it and throw the book at him.

Nomore_Tantrums's avatar

Hang him high!

JLeslie's avatar

I heard 30 million people are watching the hearings. It was said like that is a lot, and to me that is embarrassing low. How many adults are there in the US? Over 200 million I would think. That means a whole lot of people don’t have the whole story.

HP's avatar

There are those who can’t be interested in the “whole story”. This is a characteristic unfortunately essential to the post truth Republican party. The pretense that 6 January should just be ignored or swept under the rug as a non event is both dishonorable and disreputable. It is in fact boot licking cowardice. No political office should be worthy of sacrificing your self respect.

Jaxk's avatar

There is simply nothing new here to spark peoples interest. We’ve been listening to all this for almost a year and half. Now you have a committee of Trump haters handpicking what they want us to hear. No independent voices or objective testimony so yeah, nothing to see here. The hearings are set up to achieve a political objective and we know the results before anything was said. Why waste your time?

Nomore_Tantrums's avatar

Because an attempt to overthrow an election is treason and rebellion.. no matter how hard you guys try to paint it as deep state, fake news, or any other Fox News, Alex Jones, Patriot Boys “Oh the mean libs are picking on Trump” talking point. If Dems / Libs had pulled a stunt like that to you people would holler about it until Judgement Day. The same way you made a big whoop about Clinton’s blow job
for decades.

seawulf575's avatar

@Nomore_Tantrums Yet there are more and more convictions happening of people that have now admitted to voter fraud. So is it treason and rebellion since there indeed was voter fraud? Or is it treason and rebellion when you commit the voter fraud? After all, you are attempting to undermine the Democracy.

As for Bill’s BJ, I have a really simple view of that. He handled it all wrong. When confronted, under oath, about having an affair, he lied. And then he tried using the power of his office to cover for himself. Those actions are what he was impeached for…not the BJ. Had he actually just said “yes, I had an affair. I was weak and gave in to temptation. I have told my wife and we are working through it” the entire thing would have gone away and no one would remember it.

And for the record, it is only those that avoid the truth of that situation that believe he was impeached for getting a blow job as POTUS.

janbb's avatar

@Jaxk You are aware enough to know that everyone who has testified so far were Republican members of Trump’s inner circle, I hope.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

. . . ” more and more convictions happening of people that have now admitted to voter fraud.”

By whom ?

Debunking the Voter Fraud Myth

Sensationalist claims have circulated this election season about the extent of voter fraud, with some politicians going so far as to tell voters to fear that this November’s election will be “rigged.” Because electoral integrity is one of the elements necessary to making America the greatest democracy in the world, claims like this garner media attention, and frighten and concern voters. But putting rhetoric aside to look at the facts makes clear that fraud by voters at the polls is vanishingly rare, and does not happen on a scale even close to that necessary to “rig” an election.

Studies Agree: Impersonation Fraud by Voters Very Rarely Happens

• The Brennan Center’s seminal report on this issue, The Truth About Voter Fraud, found that most eported incidents of voter fraud are actually traceable to other sources, such as clerical errors or bad data matching practices. The report reviewed elections that had been meticulously studied for voter fraud, and found incident rates between 0.0003 percent and 0.0025 percent. Given this tiny incident rate for voter impersonation fraud, it is more likely, the report noted, that an American “will be struck by lightning than that he will impersonate another voter at the polls.”
• A study published by a Columbia University political scientist tracked incidence rates for voter raud for two years, and found that the rare fraud that was reported generally could be traced to false claims by the loser of a close race, mischief and administrative or voter error.”
• A 2017 analysis published in The Washington Post concluded that there is no evidence to support Trump’s claim that Massachusetts residents were bused into New Hampshire to vote.
• A comprehensive 2014 study published in The Washington Post found 31 credible instances of impersonation fraud from 2000 to 2014, out of more than 1 billion ballots cast. Even this tiny number is likely inflated, as the study’s author counted not just prosecutions or convictions, but any and all credible claims.
• Two studies done at Arizona State University, one in 2012 and another in 2016, found similarly negligible rates of impersonation fraud. The project found 10 cases of voter impersonation fraud nationwide from 2000–2012. The follow-up study, which looked for fraud specifically in states where politicians have argued that fraud is a pernicious problem, found zero successful prosecutions for impersonation fraud in five states from 2012–2016.
• A review of the 2016 election found four documented cases of voter fraud.
• Research into the 2016 election found no evidence of widespread voter fraud.
• A 2016 working paper concluded that the upper limit on double voting in the 2012 election was 0.02%. The paper noted that the incident rate was likely much lower, given audits conducted by the researchers showed that “many, if not all, of these apparent double votes could be a result of measurement error.”
• A 2014 paper concluded that “the likely percent of non-citizen voters in recent US elections is 0.”
• A 2014 nationwide study found “no evidence of widespread impersonation fraud” in the 2012 election.
• A 2014 study that examined impersonation fraud both at the polls and by mail ballot found zero instances in the jurisdictions studied.
• A 2014 study by the non-partisan Government Accountability Office, which reflected a literature review of the existing research on voter fraud, noted that the studies consistently found “few instances of in-person voter fraud.”
• While writing a 2012 book, a researcher went back 30 years to try to find an example of voter mpersonation fraud determining the outcome of an election, but was unable to find even one.
• A 2012 study exhaustively pulled records from every state for all alleged election fraud, and found the overall fraud rate to be “infinitesimal” and impersonation fraud by voters at the polls to be the rarest fraud of all: only 10 cases alleged in 12 years. The same study found only 56 alleged
cases of non-citizen voting, in 12 years.
• A 2012 assessment of Georgia’s 2006 election found “no evidence that election fraud was committed under the auspices of deceased registrants.”
• A 2011 study by the Republican National Lawyers Association found that, between 2000 and 2010, 21 states had 1 or 0 convictions for voter fraud or other kinds of voting irregularities.
• A 2010 book cataloguing reported incidents of voter fraud concluded that nearly all allegations turned out to be clerical errors or mistakes, not fraud.
• A 2009 analysis examined 12 states and found that fraud by voters was “very rare,” and also concluded that many of the cases that garnered media attention were ultimately unsubstantiated upon further review.
• Additional research on noncitizen voting can be found here: http://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/analysis-noncitizen-voting-vanishingly-rare.
• Additional resources can be found here: https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/analysis-and-reports.

Courts Agree: Fraud by Voters at the Polls is Nearly Non-Existent

• The Fifth Circuit, in an opinion finding that Texas’s strict photo ID law is racially discriminatory, noted that there were “only two convictions for in-person voter impersonation fraud out of 20 million votes cast in the decade” before Texas passed its law.
• In its opinion striking down North Carolina’s omnibus restrictive election law —which included a voter ID requirement — as purposefully racially discriminatory, the Fourth Circuit noted that the state “failed to identify even a single individual who has ever been charged with committing in-person voter fraud in North Carolina.”
• A federal trial court in Wisconsin reviewing that state’s strict photo ID law found “that impersonation fraud — the type of fraud that voter ID is designed to prevent — is extremely rare” and “a truly isolated phenomenon that has not posed a significant threat to the integrity of Wisconsin’s elections.”
• Even the Supreme Court, in its opinion in Crawford upholding Indiana’s voter ID law, noted that the record in the case “contains no evidence of any [in-person voter impersonation] fraud actually occurring in Indiana at any time in its history.” Two of the jurists who weighed in on that case at the time — Republican-appointed former Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens and
conservative appellate court Judge Richard Posner — have since announced they regret their votes in favor of the law, with Judge Posner noting that strict photo ID laws are “now widely regarded as a means of voter suppression rather than of fraud prevention.”
Government Investigations Agree: Voter Fraud Is Rare
• Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach, a longtime proponent of voter suppression efforts, argued before state lawmakers that his office needed special power to prosecute voter fraud, because he knew of 100 such cases in his state. After being granted these powers, he has brought six such cases, of which only four have been successful. The secretary has also testified about his review of 84 million votes cast in 22 states, which yielded 14 instances of fraud referred for prosecution, which amounts to a 0.00000017 percent fraud rate.
• Texas lawmakers purported to pass its strict photo ID law to protect against voter fraud. Yet the chief law enforcement official in the state responsible for such prosecutions knew of only one conviction and one guilty plea that involved in-person voter fraud in all Texas elections from 2002 through 2014.
• A specialized United States Department of Justice unit formed with the goal of finding instances of federal election fraud examined the 2002 and 2004 federal elections, and were able to prove that 0.00000013 percent of ballots cast were fraudulent. There was no evidence that any of these incidents involved in-person impersonation fraud. Over a five year period, they found “no concerted effort to tilt the election.”
• An investigation in Colorado, in which the Secretary of State alleged 100 cases of voter fraud, yielded one conviction.
• In Maine, an investigation into 200 college students revealed no evidence of fraud. Shortly thereafter, an Elections Commission appointed by a Republican secretary of state found “there is little or no history in Maine of voter impersonation or identification fraud.”
• In Florida, a criminal investigation into nine individuals who allegedly committed absentee ballot fraud led to all criminal charges being dismissed against all voters.
• In 2012, Florida Governor Rick Scott initiated an effort to remove non-citizen registrants from the state’s rolls. The state’s list of 182,000 alleged non-citizen registrants quickly dwindled to 198. Even this amended list contained many false positives, such as a WWII veteran born in Brooklyn. In the end, only 85 non-citizen registrants were identified and only one was convicted of fraud,
out of a total of 12 million registered voters.
• In Iowa, a multi-year investigation into fraud led to just 27 prosecutions out of 1.6 million ballots cast. In 2014 the state issued a report on the investigation citing only six prosecutions.
• In Wisconsin, a task force charged 20 individuals with election crimes. The majority charged were individuals with prior criminal convictions, who are often caught up by confusing laws regarding restoration of their voting rights..

The verdict is in from every corner that voter fraud is sufficiently rare that it simply could not and does not happen at the rate even approaching that which would be required to “rig” an election. Electoral integrity is key to our democracy, and politicians who genuinely care about protecting our elections should focus not on phantom fraud concerns, but on those abuses that actually threaten election security.
As historians and election experts have catalogued, there is a long history in this country of racially suppressive voting measures — including poll taxes and all-white primaries — put in place under the guise of stopping voter fraud that wasn’t actually occurring in the first place. The surest way toward voting that is truly free, fair, and accessible is to know the facts in the face of such rhetoric.

https://www.brennancenter.org/

SQUEEKY2's avatar

I guess the real distraction is scream voter fraud to get people’s attention off the real thing that was an attempted coup of the us government.

jca2's avatar

I haven’t heard anything on the news from any news outlet about convictions of people who committed voter fraud.

How did the subject of Bill getting a blow job get into this discussion about Mike Pence?

janbb's avatar

@jca2 The image of Mike Pence getting a blow job just came in to my mind! “Oh Mother!”

jca2's avatar

@janbb: With the fly on his white scalp. :)

JLeslie's avatar

There were a few cases of voter fraud, all Republicans that I am aware of. They were double voting if I remember correctly. Nothing that could have changed an election result. I know about the few, because a couple of them lived in or near The Villages.

Edit: Here is a link https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/regional/florida/the-villages-double-voting-admission-presidential-election/67-8d9c01ca-9b76-4a3b-8d72-61e57835a0a3

During the hearings they said that every accusation of Trump’s regarding mishandling of ballots or fake ballots was followed up on, every single one was taken seriously, and all of them had no validity.

Jaxk's avatar

@janbb – Yes I( am aware. I hope you are aware that their testimony has been edited so that you only hear the parts that the committee wants you to hear.

JLeslie's avatar

@Jaxk Video of Jan 6 is edited too, but it doesn’t change that those things did happen. You can see clips of people just walking through the Capitol (still not ok) and clips of what has been described as hand-to-hand combat. It doesn’t matter that some people were just stupid enough to follow along, but who weren’t violent. Lawyers advised Trump over and over that Pence could not stop the election results, many people asked Trump to say something to stop the rioting, Trump didn’t care. In fact, what I find interesting is people from Fox news said the riots were going to ruin everything they had accomplished, something like that. I don’t understand why no one is following up on that. What Fox news has accomplished?

SQUEEKY2's avatar

How about that one lawyer that kept pleading the fifth?
Why do that if Jan6 was just a cuddly little protest?
Now it comes to light that the Oath keepers were indeed planning on actually killing Pence if they caught him that day,but our friendly fright wingers will spin that saying oh no they were planning on giving him a puppy, and the evil left just distorted that.

Jaxk's avatar

@JLeslie – A balaced committee would not change what happened either but it would shine some light on why it happened. If the goal is to insure it never happens again, that would seem to be a good question. Unfortunately that’s not the goal of this committee, prosecuting Trump is the goal. Personally I’m not interested in prosecuting Trump or Clinton (either one). Calling Jan 6 and insurrection is merely a tool to make that case. That’s why they have only haters on the committee.

As for your comment about Fox news, I haven’t heard that but I would guess that the comment was in reference to what conservatives have accomplish over the Trump Presidency. I do believe that we accomplished a lot for the country. Unfortunately Biden has been able to dismantle those accomplishments is less than 2 years. Unfortunate is an understatement.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@Jaxk Trump is being investigated for crimes against the US Government !

SQUEEKY2's avatar

No ,no @Tropical_Willie Trump is being investigated simply because the evil left hate him, I thought you knew that?

JLeslie's avatar

@Jaxk More balanced how? The hearings are about the criminal activity. The physical assault, interfering with the vote, I don’t have any hopes Trump will go to jail, but these criminals who raided the Capitol should go and many will be going.

Let’s say it was a regular court case about a supermarket being broken into, vandalized, and looted. The people being prosecuted physically harmed the security guard and some other staff members, they destroyed thousands of dollars of property, they threatened the lives of the owners and people who work there, and parts of the staff locked themselves in the basement and stock rooms trying to stay alive. Are you saying the defense attorney would show footage of people who were there who weren’t being violent or thieving, who were just walking through the property? What do they have to do with the case about those who were violent and on a mission.

Even those protesters walking through are participating, because they add to the terrorism of the mob. The numbers matter. They participated by being there. The Capitol had rioters breaching the Capitol from multiple locations, but if you want to give the people who just walked through the rotunda a pass, go ahead, but what about walking through side and back doors and staying while they watched people break windows, doors, walls, and were screaming out that they were going hang Pence or get Pelosi? Are you going to stay in that crowd?

mazingerz88's avatar

@JLeslie I have a feeling that if Pence was killed, it would still be a nothingburger to some. Don’t you see, it’s a game to them. They want Republican clowns on that committee instead of Cheney and Kinzinger to see a circus performance.

Jaxk's avatar

@mazingerz88 – It’s already a ‘Circus Performance’.

@JLeslie – I love straw man arguments. You can make up whatever you want and make the issue seem unsolvable but let’s look at your scenario. Before we take those people out hand shoot them I would like to know who was there to do harm and who was there merely looking for a loaf of bread. And if you want to prosecute them for being on a mission it seems appropriate to define what that mission was and who was on it. I’d kind of like to know why the same action at the hardware store last week was not prosecuted and why the doors were still on automatic opening. If you believe some mastermind was behind the whole thing it might be interesting to hear exactly what he said. But I guess since we already know these people are guilty of some heinous crime let’s just sentence them and move on. No defense warranted or necessary. Hang them first then the trial.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Hey @Jaxk Do you feel the same about the BLM protests?
You know just a couple of bad apples most were there just to be heard right?

JLeslie's avatar

@Jaxk Agreed. That’s what the hearings are doing, and what the courts that are prosecuting these people are doing.

They have footage of people planning beforehand. They have texts and tweets showing the progression to the events of Jan 6 and who was involved.

The US isn’t just prosecuting and convicting without evidence.

Are you watching the hearings?

I know there are some people who are going to jail trying to say they did nothing, but it’s not true that they did nothing.

Jaxk's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 – Yes I do feel the same way about the BLM protests. If those mobs had been treated the same way the Jan 6 mobs are being treaty, I’d have no problem. Or if the Jan 6 mob was treated the way the BLM mobs were treated, I’d have no problem. It’s the two tiered hypocrisy that I’m sick of.

@JLeslie
I assume you also want the Colbert insurrectionists jailed.

JLeslie's avatar

@Jaxk I’m find with the Colbert people being detained, questioned, and having someone sort of punishment.

Did the BLM rioters actually attack people? Or, did they “just” destroy property? I honestly don’t know, I’m asking. I know some of the riots that happened during BLM protesting definitely were scary too. I don’t think protesters followed the rioters into building. BLM riots are not equivalent to trying to stop the certification of the vote or threatening our VP and Speaker.

Are you watching the hearings?

Edit: this video is not from the hearings, but it’s a good one to see what was happening. https://youtu.be/jWJVMoe7OY0 if you can’t deal with watching the whole thing you can forward to minute 11:00 and then if you get bored in the middle forward to minute 29:00. If you’re only watching Fox you aren’t seeing the hours of physical fighting some officers were dealing with or the rioters coming in from all sides. You simply don’t have all of the information. What’s the information you want to present that it was no big deal and no one was truly under threat?

SQUEEKY2's avatar

@Jaxk I truly hope you watched that video that @JLeslie gave it was very scary and to say that crowd wasn’t violent is wrong, EVERYONE who breached the fence of the capital that day should be charged ,non violent yeah right.
I was very sad to see a Canadian flag among those nut bars in that video.

Jaxk's avatar

@JLeslie – 25 people died and over 2000 cops were injured during the BLM riots. It is rather interesting to note that most of the supporters of the riots claim that some or most of the deaths and injuries were from others not involved in the riots and merely used the riots as cover for their crimes. An argument you seem to specifically refute. The BLM riots were much more deadly, more violent and more costly. But I’ll grant you that the people killed in the BLM riots were just average people and as such not important enough to justify inquiry.If the evidence is so solid, why is no one allowed to see it all or question it except those that already hate Trump. Those that are trying to build a narrative rather than find the truth. Evidence that can’t be questioned is not evidence.

jca2's avatar

Whataboutery: “But what about the BLM protests?”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

HP's avatar

Insurrection: a violent uprising against an authority or government
Sedition: conduct or speech inciting people to rebel against the authority of a state
The distinct difference between the BLM “riots” and the January 6 insurrectionists is that BLM neither instigated nor participated in the desruction accompanying their demonstrations. It is a distinction feckless rightwingers conveniently ignore. Trump instructed his dumbell followers to march on the Capitol with the specific promise to join up with them at the site. As with everyone else stupid enough to trust him, he left the suckers there holding the bag. The sleazy jackass by any sensible definition is guilty of sedition, and the only plausible defense he might muster at his upcoming trial is that his sleazy ass is so dumb he doesn’t know sedition from cheeseburgers.

mazingerz88's avatar

@Jaxk It sure doesn’t come
across on screen as a circus performance.

Except probably for Americans either in denial of the seriousness of the Jan. 6 attack for political reasons
or those embarrassed and ashamed that there were gullible Americans who fell for trump’s lies and who prefer the world to stop discovering how pathetic and deadly trump and his deplorable fanatics were.

JLeslie's avatar

@Jaxk In favor of the riots? Who is in favor of the RIOTS? I’ll give you that the first riot in Minneapolis a lot of people were ok with it, I never was. I understood the emotion of setting the police station on fire, but I never was ok with it. They also set fire to nearby businesses, I absolutely never was ok with it. There were people all over my TV screen (MSNBC and CNN) for days saying that destroying property is not acceptable and it is only hurting themselves and their own neighborhoods.

I found this link that talks about extremists and criminals during the protests. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_and_controversies_during_the_George_Floyd_protests

I don’t see why you have no problem with organized groups of people planning to try to stop the confirmation of a vote in America and planning to harm our government representatives. If leftists had raided the Capitol to stop Trump from being confirmed and threatened to hang Mike Pence (just close your eyes and imagine that) would you be ok with forgetting about it?

JLeslie's avatar

I’ll just add, here is information about the Trump campaign regarding the vote and efforts to find fraud and misconduct. Just 5 minutes long. https://youtu.be/UTqraTUOQK4

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/ex-pa-congressman-pleads-guilty-in-ballot-stuffing-case/3262832/

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/democratic-operative-says-hes-been-committing-voter-fraud-for-decades-warns-theres-a-war-coming-november-3rd-over-this-stuff

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/arizona-woman-admits-guilt-in-ballot-collection-scheme/

https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud/search?state=FL

https://www.ctinsider.com/news/article/Former-CT-resident-admits-to-voter-fraud-in-2020-17081176.php

All are current affairs, not the ancient news from the Brennan Center which, by the way, is noted for their biased research. The Heritage organization likewise has bias (the other way) and has old stuff, but also new stuff and it is broken down by state and gives the details which can easily be verified. So while your leftist outlet is crying “Debunked!” new evidence is surfacing that has now debunked their debunked claim.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Get real Wahington Examiner ,a right wing conservative rag with lies handing all over it !

There must ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ millions of votes accounted for . . . . not. It happens but Trump and company shit all over the USA democracy to fraudulent statement about machines, buses taking people across state lines on and on and on.

North Carolina House Representative was not seated in Washington DC because he hired an agent known for “getting votes”; the agent was convicted of getting and using mail-in ballots.

Claims of hundreds of voter fraud cases turn into a single conviction.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

@seawulf575 How come you expect us to accept your right wing news without question, while you scoff at anything we post?

SQUEEKY2's avatar

@seawulf575 did you watch the video @JLeslie provided?

JLeslie's avatar

I provided two. The first one is the most important one. Here it is again.

This video is not from the hearings, but it’s a good one to see what was happening. https://youtu.be/jWJVMoe7OY0 if you can’t deal with watching the whole thing you can forward to minute 11:00 and then if you get bored in the middle forward to minute 29:00.

JLeslie's avatar

Regarding BLM arrests and convictions: …more than 120 defendants across the United States have pleaded guilty or were convicted at trial of federal crimes including rioting, arson and conspiracy. More than 70 defendants who’ve been sentenced so far have gotten an average of about 27 months behind bars. At least 10 received prison terms of five years or more.

Source: https://apnews.com/article/records-rebut-claims-jan-6-rioters-55adf4d46aff57b91af2fdd3345dace8

The hypocrisy bit isn’t true. Sure there are probably some people who should have been prosecuted who weren’t or who were given light sentences, but the rhetoric that all rioters during BLM were set free is not true.

Jaxk's avatar

Let me see if I can make my position clear. What Trump and his supporters wanted was to have the States recertify their Electoral count. A ‘No’ vote to certify is a valid vote and has been done many times by individual Senators. The laws get a bit murky about what happens if the vote is not certified but by Jan 20 the presidential term ends and the current president leaves office. If the vote is not certified by Jan 20 the Speaker becomes president. Trying to influence the vote to certify is not an act of sedition but rather a legitimate issue for protest. Were the protestors justified in their riot, hell NO. But remember that we had gone through a summer where protests were violent and many of our political leaders were supporting the protests because they thought their cause was just. Hell even Kamala Harris was advocating a fund to bail out protestors and have charges dropped. The attack on the White House was rewarded with a street named in their honor. They took six blocks in Downtown Portland and succeeded from the Union.

We set up an atmosphere of protest that said ‘if your cause is just riots are OK’. Now we come to Jan 6 where the protestors thought their cause was just. Were there bad actors in that crowd, of course. There always are bad actors in a riot Just like the bad actors in the BLM riots. We set ourselves up for this outcome.

I do not support those that entered the Capitol on Jan 6. But I also don’t believe it was a ‘Coup’. The only difference between the riot at the Capitol and the riot at the White House is that the Secret Service was prepared for the riot at at the White House. The riot at the Capitol the police were ill prepared or intentionally left vulnerable. That’s what the hearing should be investigating.

I have no problem with sentencing those individuals but it doesn’t take a congressional hearing to do that. Some of these people have been in jail for a year now and it’s time to move on. We all played a part in what happen. Dragging this on through the next election is merely a political stunt. IMHO

seawulf575's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 I don’t expect you to take anything at face value. Nor do I use only right wing outlets. I used an NBC outlet, the Wash Exam, the Heritage foundation, CBS, and a more local Connecticut outlet. And even the use of the Heritage organization citation I pointed out why I tend to accept that more than just the claims by the Brennan center. And you can search on any and all the data and you MIGHT find more liberal outlets that run the stories, though that is sometimes tough as they don’t opt to run stories that don’t support the narrative.

JLeslie's avatar

@Jaxk I’m with you that any politician showing any type of support or wanting to help rioters is unacceptable. I said that about Maxine Waters, and I honestly would have to look up what Harris said or did, but I’ll just set that aside for now, because if she did what you said I’m going to agree with you, unless it was arrests for things like breaking curfew but they were calm and not causing any sort of violence or vandalism? I actually supported curfews, but that’s just an example where maybe people were arrested who should not have been.

Most politicians that I saw who are Democrats didn’t support any type of rioting, while it seems a lot of Republican politicians are going on camera saying the riots on June 6th were no big deal and not violent.

Did you see that over 100 people have been arrested and convicted from the BLM riots? I was writing above you when you were writing.

I think part of the hearing timing might be politics, but I think the hearing is important, because it is people under oath, some who worked for Trump, and also investigators testifying, and footage of WS leaders plotting and planning.

Advisors to Pence testified that Pence thought the idea of one man, the VP, being able to decide or overturn the vote over the will of the American people was obviously completely unAmerican and the idea that the founders intended for the VP to have that power when the VP himself might be then electing himself was ludicrous. Al Gore had to verify Bush had won.

As far as returning it to the states, the states had spoken! They investigated allegations of problems with the vote, it was over. Nothing was going to change unless Trump was planning to break legs and threaten the families of the supervisors of elections, or kill them.

In the hearings they even said there is really nothing giving the VP the power to return it to the states, it would have caused a constitutional crisis if he had refused from what I understood.

Pence insisted on staying at the Capitol to finish his job. At one point on Jan 6 he was told to get into a car and he refused. He said to the person who I guess protects him, I don’t remember his position, that he trusts him, but doesn’t trust the driver, meaning he didn’t trust they wouldn’t whisk him away and then his job that day wouldn’t be completed.

I’m guessing you haven’t watched the hearings. That’s what the Republicans in charge want you to do. You are missing some information, trust me.

JLeslie's avatar

@Jaxk Here is the 5 minute testimony of the legal advisor to Pence regarding his power to challenge the vote of the electors and he brings recent challenges by senators in recent elections. It touches on returning votes to the states too. https://youtu.be/hx2o81mdqIg

What that video is missing is during the hearing there was significant evidence demonstrating Trump still trying to pressure Pence to do something even tough the lawyers said it’s not possible snd Trump encouraging the idea to the American public that Pence can do something and more specifically encouraging the crazy, violent, QAnon, Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, supporters of his to try to stop Pence.

Nomore_Tantrums's avatar

To cop a line of dialogue from an old Billy the Kid movie, they’d probably have hanged him by his neck until he was dead dead dead. So as far as I’m concerned they can all go to hell hell hell. And take the lame excuses with them.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

There was no cuddly mob that I saw, they broke the law when they breached the fence at the Capital,and it got worse from there.
I hope the ones that did great violence spend many years behind bars.

JLeslie's avatar

@Jaxk Just curious if it wasn’t a coup, what do you think Trump was doing encouraging people to believe Pence could stop or overturn the vote? Was Trump just playing a game with people?

Jaxk's avatar

@JLeslie – First, there was no attempt to overturn the election by Trump. His stance was to return the vote to the states for a recount and recertification. Maybe that’s not possible but that’s what he wanted. Frankly if that had been done the results would have been the same, Biden won. Being wrong does not make it a ‘Coup’.

There’s a lot of hysteria out there and I can’t believe a word coming out of Washington. Especially from a committee that won’t allow any dissenting opinions and a committee chaired by Adam Schiff. What is legal or ethical has no bearing on what they say or do. Remember General Flynn who pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI after they threatened to prosecute his son? How many of the witnesses in this hearing were similarly threaten or coerced? How much of this testimony can be believed? How much of the video is altered? There’s a reason the committee was staffed with only Trump haters and it can’t be good. Questions they didn’t want asked and answers they did want questioned.

HP's avatar

Flynn was prosecuted for LYING. And specifically for lying about his dealings with the RUSSIANS with which damned near the entire Trump entourage for some reason found it necessary to visit repeatedly prior to their fat dummy’s ensconcement in the White House. No collusion my ass!

HP's avatar

And if ever hysteria is justified, it will be when the seat of government is under siege by a crowd of dumb gullible crackers in league with and spurred on by fascists and racists. Only a fool would contend such an event unworthy of investigation, and the participants undeserving of
consequences regardless of how stupid they are.

JLeslie's avatar

@Jaxk If you watch the testimony, which you seem to refuse to do, you will see that almost everyone testifying doesn’t seem under duress to answer questions. Ivanka looked a little traumatized, but many of the advisors to Trump and Pence, and within the Trump administration in general are answering what they advise or thought. They have no reason to lie. They aren’t admitting guilt to protect a family member, they aren’t guilty of anything, except maybe that they didn’t do something to get Trump out of office.

You are basing your opinions on whatever you are listening to instead of listening to the actual hearing. Find you want to have politicians on the side of Trump present, but that won’t change the EVIDENCE and answers to questions asked, and I haven’t seen anyone cut off from expanding on an answer if they wanted to.

If you agree Biden would have won, then what was the point of what Trump was doing? Just a game to him? Like watching people kill each other in the Coliseum. Sport. Voyeurism for the people in power.

Jaxk's avatar

@JLeslie – The hearings are a made for TV movie produced by a television exec. I saw Jurassic Park the other day on TV and I didn’t see any cutaways or skips in that presentation either, yet I’m fairly sure there are no real dinosaurs.

“If you agree Biden would have won, then what was the point of what Trump was doing?” I’ll offer a possibility that I know you’ll have trouble believing. Maybe he believed what he was saying. After all Rudy Giuliani was a credible source and he seemed to believe it.

chyna's avatar

@Jaxk But if was on Fox and for the repubs, you would believe every word.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

So in your humble opinion @Jaxk January 6th was a bunch of gentle boy / girl scouts on a tour of DC ? SMH

Jaxk's avatar

@chyna – I don’t believe every from any source. That’s why I like to hear both sides.

@Tropical_Willie – Could be or it could be Angry Nuns. I just don’t think the answer will come from the Jan 6 hearings.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

SOOOOOOO you are drinking Trump Kool-aid !

Here’s your chant.

Trump can do no wrong !

Trump can do no wrong !

Trump can do no wrong !

Trump can do no wrong !

Trump can do no wrong !

The conman will receive his do.

JLeslie's avatar

@Jaxk I get the feeling you aren’t watching any links, but what the hell I’ll keep trying.

Here is a clip about Giuliani’s claim about voter fraud in Georgia. https://youtu.be/9YHmiLFY9bI

You can look at this too, starting at minute 4:40 until the end. https://youtu.be/RP5XYHpisnI Basically Giuliani told the president to declare victory way before the counting was done.

I actually wish we could see the full deposition of Giuliani and I wish he had been cross examined by someone sympathetic to Trump, because then I think to cover himself he would have trouble maintaining his ridiculous stories.

You see one side on Fox. You can see the other side (according to how you perceive the hearing) in my links from the hearings and the first link I posted also.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

@JLeslie You might as well give up,the extreme right are convinced it’s an all out attempt to get Trump, I mean over all the mob on Jan 6 wasn’t violent,like HUH??
The video we are seeing was shot mostly by the mob themselves ,but still not violent, chanting hang Mike Pence was just calling him out to give him a puppy.
I would like to know how they figure the evil left is hiding evidence from that day?
When mostly the ones at the hearings are Rep/cons.
Evil dictators through history vilified the press,Hitler, Putin,and now Trump.
The press may be guilty of sensationalising a story ,but that is about it.

JLeslie's avatar

^^I don’t usually think of @Jaxk as extreme right.

I also think there is probably plenty of footage of people not being violent. The thing is, none of that matters regarding the people who were violent. No one is saying people shouldn’t have protested, we are only saying they can’t be violent and should not be breaching the Capitol or threatening to kill people. We all are focused on what the rioters did.

Moreover, the purposeful deception done by Trump is extremely harmful to the country and to those loyal supporters of his. I don’t think he cares, because he probably has no respect for the Jan 6 rioters anyways. They are just pawns in his game.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Anyone who breached the fence became a rioter ,anyone who stayed behind the fence was a protester.

JLeslie's avatar

^^I agree.

LostInParadise's avatar

It must be emphasized that there were some who breached the Capitol with the specific intent of preventing Pence from confirming the vote. That amounts to an attempted insurrection.

JLeslie's avatar

@LostInParadise There is video of them saying it. There is even video of them finally leaving saying they stopped the vote. Some of them felt they accomplished it.

I wonder if any DC cops have now converted from being Republicans to being Democrats, or at least distancing from the extremists. Someone I went to high school with is a Maryland cop in the area and initially on that day he wrote on Facebook that it was great seeing all the patriots in DC. I was disgusted by what he wrote even before the rioting, but I restrained myself from commenting. I wonder if he changed his tune at all.

Jaxk's avatar

@JLeslie – I watched your video. I saw a lot of pushing and shoving but no one wa chased down and beaten. When the police tried to stop them they pushed through. When the police stood aside the crowd moved past them. The biggest problem was that the police were under staffed and poorly equipped. Why was that. We had just gone through a summer with over 500 riots. The police were warned that a protest was going to take place. With that information why was the Capitol so vulnerable? A bi-partisan commission may have answered those questions. Or maybe we just don’t care.

JLeslie's avatar

@Jack I don’t know exactly why they weren’t staffed better, and I think there was a failure there. Why did Trump not help send in more help when it was being asked for?

I can’t help thinking blaming the police is like blaming a girl in a skirt for getting raped or a guy wearing a Rolex for being mugged. The criminals are still criminals.

I really think you are missing a lot by not watching the hearing, but nothing I can do about that. The hearing demonstrates the pathological (my word) lying Trump engaged in and the threats he used against people, and trying to get them to break the law.

You do realize interfering with the vote is a big deal right? Republicans get freaked out over kneeling before a football game, and look the other way at what happened on Jan 6? Who do you think is telling Republicans to do that?

What do you think Republicans would say and do if Democrats stormed the Capitol to stop the certification of Trump? You know they would be the first to scream insurrection, treason, and how their husband, grandfather, son, gave their life to protect our democracy. Talk about hypocrisy.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Great Answer @JLeslie !!^^

HP's avatar

Let’s make no mistake. A bipartisan commission was impossible spdcifically because the Republican Senators at the urging of Trump blocked any attempt at the establishment of both an independent commission completely removed from political bias, as well as a bipartisan commission, of which only those now serving had any intention of joining.
The Republican legislators are now the undisguised bootlicking toadies of the fat boy. It is just that stark and EXACTLY that simple. The people here decrying the fact that there are no pro Trump people involved with these hearings ignore the fact that the cowards want nothing to do with ANY investigation. The collective cowardice of the bunch is extraordinary to witness. This silliness about hearings as a means of embarassing Repuplicans is simply another stage in the process Trump has followed in destroying the integrety of any and all so foolish as to take up with him.
It puzzles me that these people can look their children in the face. Because ultimately it isn’t an investigation these spineless people fear. It is the truth that terrifies them as surely as it does the fat snake to which they are tethered in unison. History will mark them for what they are. DEPEND ON IT.

Jaxk's avatar

@JLeslie – I am surprised at how little you know about both the Jan 6 riot and the riots during the ‘Summer of Love’. We know exactly what would happen if the BLM protests attacked our seats of government because it happened at the White House. Do you realize that Trump was taken to a secure bunker in case the rioters breached the Secret Service lines? The only rson it didn’t happen was because the Secret Service was competently staffed and equipped. That was not the case on Jan 6. Why, seems to be a valid question. Nancy Pelosi specifically removed GOP representation from the Jan 6 commission. I understand there is some controversy over whether Trump offered National Guard support. According to the Chief of the Capitol Police, Steven Sund, he asked for National Guard support 6 times ahead of the demonstration and was refused by congressional leadership. Is he lying, maybe but we’ll never know if we don’t ask the question. As for your analogy about the girl being raped, you miss the point. It has nothing to do with what she was wearing but rather whether it was consensual. Seems like a valid question.
I can’t believe you’re trying to tell us that Trump is the reason teams or individuals pray before a football game is because trump told them to. Is that really your position? That has been going on as long as I’ve been alive and I’m about the same age as Trump.

There’s a lot more I could say but if you don’t6 want to hear it, it will fall on deaf ears. Listen to the excellent points made by @HP with his ‘fat’, or ‘spineless’ or ‘toadies’ comments. They are very persuasive.

JLeslie's avatar

@Jaxk I think they were partly worried about the optics if they had more force protecting the Capitol, because the Democrats had spent a year saying Trump wants to put in Martial law. I never agreed with the Democrats on that. When I said I don’t know why, I just meant I agree there should have been more protections.

The secret service did keep the congressmen safe on Jan 6.

Are you saying the people in charge of deciding how much protection would be at the Capitol were consenting to putting their police and the congressmen in harm’s way?

Where did I say Trump is the reason for prayer at football games? I’m talking about kneeling during the National Anthem in protest. That didn’t interrupt the games. I don’t think Trump came up with the kneeling being the equivalent to spitting on our flag or our soldiers. That’s alt-right pushing the idea across social media and China, Russia, and Trump just seizes on those opportunities.

Do you think Trump is a religious Christian? That’s sounds totally ridiculous to me.

JLeslie's avatar

@HP Embarrassing Republicans at the hearing? Many many Republicans are demonstrating their valor and integrity at the hearing.

HP's avatar

Here’s a little more persuasion for you. Try to list anyone who has successfully enhanced their political career through falling in behind Trump. The politicians who try it, invariably wind up in the same situation as everyone else in league with the worm. That substantial margin of voters which put Biden in the White House was bolstered by millions of former Republican voters (the ones who can read or write) who finally recognized the threat the man poses to the existence of the country and his ruthless destruction of their party as a defensible entity. Those defectors are going to wield a devastating effect on the dummy’s prospects as well as those of his followers as the intellectual component (what there was of it) of that party takes up the effort to achieve his downfall. Just watch. Have you seen those accumulating ads the Lincoln Project is cranking out? Brains AND money. If anything on earth should doom the fool, this has to be a powerful factor.

filmfann's avatar

@Jaxk Nancy Pelosi specifically removed GOP representation from the Jan 6 commission
You said a lot of inaccurate things, but I will only address this, since you will agree your representation is wrong.
Pelosi bounced two republican members because they have some involvement in Trump’s culpability. McCarthy then pulled the other Republican members. Still, the GOP is represented by Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger, who refused to obey McCarthy.

HP's avatar

@jaxk And you are correct. I, much as the fool himself, have nothing kind or civil to say regarding him or the simpletons in league with him. What I will say is that he and his gang should be treated just as they deserve in language they throw around themselves. If you think for one minute that decency or restraint have any use toward moderating that jackass, you haven’t been paying attention. Trump will be brought low only when he is treated with the same scorn and derision he himself heaps upon mankind.

Jaxk's avatar

@filmfann – Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger do not represenet the GOP. Pelosi picked them because they are Trump haters.

@JLeslie – Actually, I think Pelosi intentionally left the Capitol Vulnerable.

@HP – I’m not interested in a name calling match. If that’s all you got scream away.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Sorry @Jaxk you label anyone who disagrees with Trump,a hater it’s getting old.

Nomore_Tantrums's avatar

It’s all we have folks, Trump good, libs bad, so says Fox, and Alex Jones. Epitomizes Truth in Journalism. PS, Jade Helm is still on, Hillary just drove down my street in a white unmarked van full of poor Trumpsters, and asked directions. She told me Obama wants to put them in time out in a Walmart parking lot.

HP's avatar

@jaxk you may not be interested, but you surely must have noticed that name calling is the fat boy’s obsession and before dismissing his sole talent, regardless of its crudity, consider the milage he achieves with it alone.

Jaxk's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 – That’s not really true. Fir instance, @JLeslie disagrees with virtually everything Trump did but she can still make an intelligent argument. I wouldn’t label her a ‘Hater’. @HP however disagrees with everything Trump did but can’t control himself enough to make any argument, intelligent or not. He’s a ‘Hater’.

Nomore_Tantrums's avatar

Of course, anyone who dislikes Trump is a hater. Now sweetness and light, as with all the Repubs who trash Hillary and Obama 24/7. Got it.

HP's avatar

@jaxk Pelosi deliberately left the Capitol vulnerable? Now this typifies the nonsene right wingers sling at themselves. Pelosi left the Capitol vulnerable and instructed the Capitol police to escort the mob into the building in order that she would have an excuse to bad mouth Republicans. Now tell us how to reason with anyone believing this. It’s a failure in reasoning too severe to be overcome.

HP's avatar

@jaxk again,you cannot possibly claim that I am incapable of offering any argument defying Trump. And it is truly tiresome that you conservatives dismiss scorn snd derision of the pig as hatred. It’s the lazy brain way out because if you notice, YOU CANNOT AND NEVER DISPUTE THE FACT THAT THE MAN IS A PIG. You are neither entitled to dismiss the statement as hatred nor assume it proof that I hate pigs.

Jaxk's avatar

Is that all you’ve got?

SQUEEKY2's avatar

@Jaxk Is Trump a hater when he belittles handicap people?
When he went on endless tweets screaming at people?

HP's avatar

@jaxk read it again. It’s more than enough. But you know good and well, I can provide PLENTY more

filmfann's avatar

@Jaxk Back to my point, McCarthy removed your pro-Trump members from the committee, excluding the 2 Pelosi bounced.

Jaxk's avatar

@filmfann – So your saying Pelosi removed some then McCarthy removed some. OK

@SQUEEKY2 – So you’re saying Trump was mean and not politically correct. I wish it weren’t true but it is. He did little or nothing to lower the temperature of our debates. Unfortunately Political Correctness is not the most important attribute for some of us. I liked his policies and wish we our economy in the shape it was when he left office. That’s more important to me.

@HP – You’ve got nothing worth a response. Name calling is designed to shut off debate.

HP's avatar

A pig is a pig.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

@Jaxk How great was your economy when he left ,still in the throws of covid.
And what has become so bad since, and no deflecting what was so great ,and what has become so bad?

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Oh @Tropical_Willie You should know by now EVERYTHING wrong is the Democrats fault, simply because the Republicans can do no wrong, now get it right.

Jaxk's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 – Let’s see. I’m going to go on memory here since I see no point in doing a lot of research.
Gas was half what it is today. $2.33 vs $498
Inflation was about 1.4% Vs today’s 8.6%
No war in Ukraine
The Taliban was not in control of Afghanistan.
I could buy a used car for my Grand daughter
If Trump called foreign leaders, they picked up the phone
N.Korea was relatively quiet
We weren’t on the verge of Global Nuclear War
The Middle East was making progress towards peace (the Abraham Accords)
China showed some respect.
We were energy independent

That’s enough for now.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Really you’re blaming the price of gas on the Democrats?
And the Ukraine conflict as well?
Inflation is due mainly because of the price of gas, NOT the Democrats.
I don’t know what buying a used car has to do with who is in power???
Foreign leaders picked up the phone, not so sure on that one.
We were energy independent, you were not then, and you’re not now.
Why is the verge of a Global nuclear war the Democrats fault?
You think maybe ole Trump would have called his buddy Putin and told him to leave Ukraine alone, more likely he would have offered aid to Putin to help him in Ukraine.

JLeslie's avatar

@Jaxk Why do you think Pelosi left it vulnerable? What do you think was her hopes or end game? Also, do you think Democrats were actually behind the attack? Some Republicans seem to think antifa was actually raiding the Capitol not the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, and other right wing people and groups. Or, you just think Pelosi and associates were well aware it would or at least could happen, and they let it happen.

Jaxk's avatar

@JLeslie – I’m not really into conspiracy theories unless there is evidence of such. We know that the Capitol Police were severely short on under staffed for what occurred. We also know that the mob was easily predictable and in fact warned and finally we know the Chief of the Capitol Police asked Pelosi for backup before this happened. Those are things we know happened and the question we’re left with is why. Your suggestions about ANTIF and the Proud Boys are speculative with no evidence I’m aware of. I also feel Pelosi would do anything to get Trump including manufacturing a crisis. IMHO

Jaxk's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 – Of course I blame Biden for the gas prices. He shut down construction of most (if not all) pipelines. He told the oil companies (as well as everyone else) that he would shut them down. He stopped leases for the most profitable oil reserves. Now he expects them to drill more wells and build more refineries. Those are investments that take years, sometimes decades to pay off while he’s still threatening to shut them down. Of course he’s responsible for the supply shortage.

The Ukraine war is a direct result of Biden’s feckless surrender of Afghanistan. Yes his fault again. This is escalating with problems in Taiwan/China all due to his feckless policies weak responses.

The supply chain crisis has caused car prices to escalate beyond reasonable levels. That directly affects my plans and yes I hold him accountable.

When Biden tried to call the crown prince in Saudi Arabia to plead for more oil, He wouldn’t pick up the call.

I’m counting oil from Canada. Shoot me for taking liberties.

Jaxk's avatar

I take that back we were a net exporter in 2020 That makes us energy independent.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

“The Ukraine war is a direct result of Biden’s feckless surrender of Afghanistan. Yes his fault again. This is escalating with problems in Taiwan/China all due to his feckless policies weak responses.” . . . . . . wait next you’ll blame Biden for Christ being put on the cross, your statements are not logical or connected !

Oh Trump set the exit date from Afghanistan not Biden, he left a turd in the punch bowl on purpose.

Jaxk's avatar

@Tropical_Willie – I’ve heard that before but Biden engineered the withdrawal He invited the Taliban into the city, he with drew combat troops before civilians, he abandoned and left $billions in weapons Bagram air base. Hell he didn’t even adhere to Trumps schedule. Trump didn’t do that, Biden did.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

In your trump dreams @Jaxk no sources just “Ive heard . .. . ”

What right-winger website was that ?

No facts; just “Biden engineered” is lame and no facts just GOP BS!

jca2's avatar

High auto prices are due to supply chain issues, yes, but that’s a worldwide issue, not just a US issue. Auto parts are from around the world, autos are often shipped from around the world, and additionally, sometimes the ships don’t make it and the expensive autos end up in the ocean. https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60429584

Jaxk's avatar

@Tropical_Willie – “I’ve heard that before” refers to your post that it was all Trumps fault. You’re my source. How hard is it to read? Trump was out of office. the withdrawal was on Biden.

@jca2 – Can I assume then that you’re in agreement with Biden that it was Putin’s fault. Biden is telling the world that Putin has more control over the US economy than he does. I guess that buck stops with Putin.

mazingerz88's avatar

What was the question again? Lol

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Sorry @mazingerz88 it was in your opinion what do you think would have happened if that mob did get ahold of Mike Pence Jan6, our fright wing friends think they would have given him milk and cookies ,oh and a puppy.
Then the question progressed to EVERYTHING wrong is the democrats fault.
They go on saying witnesses are gag ordered ,but a google search witnesses are not allowed to talk about the hearing until it is over it is a legal thing not a democrat thing, but you can’t tell fright wingers anything.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

The exit from Afghanistan was timed by the Tangerine Turd before Biden took office, it was Trump exit date ! ! ! !

JLeslie's avatar

@Jaxk I am willing to allow for the possibility that the Democrats in charge were ok with allowing some craziness to happen on Jan 6. Maybe they hoped it would demonstrate just how dangerous these QAnons and other WS groups are. My bet is Pelosi did not expect it to be as bad as it was, even if she did think some rioting would happen. I would guess Pelosi, or whoever, didn’t expect rioters to actually get into the building.

We are just guessing, but it reminds me of the beginning of the movie Selma where MLK is trying to decide what city to go to next. What city will most likely have white cops who become violent. I assume that’s accurate to history and they weren’t taking liberties.

In my opinion there is no way the Democrats or Pelosi specifically did anything to make these rioters do what they did. I appreciate that you ate not down that conspiracy rabbit hole. The Alt-Right, QAnon, etc, groups, own it. I would think now all Republicans should understand how dangerous these people are, but it seems many Republicans don’t. Why is that?

mazingerz88's avatar

@JLeslie Because it’s a game to them. One where the only way they can put their own in the White House is scour the very bottom of the political barrel where filthy sludge lies. Someone hateful, angry and combative. They couldn’t find someone inspirational enough to win while keeping their better angels intact so they turned to the dark side, picked a loathsome white sociophatic clown to lead them. Worse, even inspire them it seems.

JLeslie's avatar

@mazingerz88 I’m not sure I agree. I think a lot of the Republican “base” find Trump inspirational.

jca2's avatar

@Jaxk: No, I don’t think the supply chain issues are Putin’s fault. Supply chain issues started with the pandemic. Labor shortages, cities shut down in China, workers out sick, that was the beginning of it.

JLeslie's avatar

@mazingerz88 I do think there is game okaying happening though. I’ve said that all along. On the order of medieval times and watching people physically fight, sometimes to the death, for the enjoyment of the aristocrats.

mazingerz88's avatar

^^American politics is spectator sports now for both aristocrats and hoi polloi. Republicans chose a cruel clown as their gladiator. I wonder how low the Dems would be willing to go to find a match to their abominable beast fighter. Lol

JLeslie's avatar

@mazingerz88 I don’t think Democrats will put in someone who encourages violence in such an overt way.

The parts of the media that are very biased to the left are a bigger problem than the actual Democratic candidates in my opinion, although I’m the first to agree that the Democrats chose to fight fire with fire in the last ten years, which means using some of the Republican tactics of fear.

For me, when Obama couldn’t appoint a Supreme Court justice, that’s when the war in politics really started for me. The Republicans not cooperating was reprehensible.

HP's avatar

@JLeslie I would like to hear your example of a part of the media which is “very biased to the left”. But beyond that, I believe you should consider that the field has changed regarding the traditional rivalry between the Democrats and Republicans. And here’s my perspective on that change. I don’t believe we understand how crucial the economic collapse of 2007 – 2008 was to this country. As far as I am concerned, Trump was elected because Obama failed to force those responsible for that collapse to shoulder the cost of it. We all watched as the 1 percent walked away with their loot while millions of us lost everything. This was the birth of the tea party, occupy Wall st. etc. And it is the reason that the populists, Trump and Bernie got any traction. You wanna know why Trump made it and Bernie didn’t? The difference is that the Republicans underestimated Trump. But the Democrats from the outset recognized the threat of Sanders because as a party it was historically familiar with populists and skilled at derailing them. If you remember, when Trump first announced his attention to run, he was denounced and ridiculed by those same Republicans now licking his boots. The Democrats effectively robbed Sanders of the Presidency on the assumption that the fat boy could not possibly win. And there you have it.

mazingerz88's avatar

@JLeslie A friend mentioned recently her idea that maybe if Obama was not re-elected for a second term with a normal Republican like Romney taking the reins, a TV host grifter would not have found another gig and a new scam to play.

WhyNow's avatar

@Tropical_Willie Tried to read your cut and paste dissertation above but I
love my insomnia!

WhyNow's avatar

According to theories like ‘madness of crowds’ and ‘bystander effect’ probably
nothing good. BUT if you’re looking for heroes to keep the crowds away, I would
take my chances with a conservative crowd.

Leftists only have big mouths and wear sneakers.

WhyNow's avatar

trump is a New York City cab driver no doubt.

I think the real reason he’s so hated is because he loves America.

How dare he!

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