How do religious people honestly feel about atheists?
I’m talking about fundamentalists—Christian, Jewish, Islam, whatever. How do they view atheists? Are we evil? Misguided? Do they feel sorry for us? Are they bemused?
I’m interested in first hand accounts from people on Fluther. If you consider yourself very religious, how do you react to someone who says they are an atheist?
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Concerned I think. On different levels.
Concerned for us, and questioning themselves, but don’t want to admit it.
Probably not good things…following
I’m not talking about all religious people. Most of my friends consider themselves aligned with some religion (I’m Jewish for instance) but none of them are fundamentalist and none of them give a shit about my atheism. Although some express confusion over the Jewish atheist thing.
My neighbor across the street curiously asked how I came to my decision. But then we were interrupted and we didn’t get to talk.
Raised Catholic but now a flavor of Hindu that is analogous to Christian mysticism. Having had some profound spiritual experiences (not without some profoundly despairing ones as well), I see atheists as a little silly but also perfectly within their right to be whatever they want to be. I remember now that I used to describe them as “throwing the bathwater out with the baby” (i.e., throwing our inherent spiritual beingness out with organized religions). And I think atheism is harmless.
My staunchly atheist aunt (also raised Catholic) passed this summer. While she was nearing the end of hospice and drifting in and out of alertness, she told her partner “This isn’t the end of the journey, is it?” and admitted to him after the decades-long standing argument between them that she could see that now. I’m not asserting that’s proof of anything, but it’s topical for me and related to the question.
As with @kevbo1, I have a story. My father died before his father died. While my grandfather was in the hospital dying, he looked in the corner and said “Jack (my dad’s name) what are you doing here.” Of course no one was there.
I also wonder what Steve Jobs meant when he was dying by saying “oh wow, oh wow, oh wow.”
But to answer your question, I’m concerned when I find out someone is atheist, especially when it’s someone I know and care about. I have never tried to convince anyone that they are wrong or that they should believe. I’m not pushy like that.
Well, I know at least one person in Tennessee said she really couldn’t fully trust an atheist. She didn’t know I was an atheist. She said that they (we) don’t have any consequence for doing something bad.
@JLeslie It’s funny that theists feel that they need to have some sort of eternal consequences for doing something bad. As if their own conscience isn’t enough. I am an atheist and I choose not to rape and murder people, not because God told me not to do it but because it’s the right thing to do.
@chyna What do you mean that you are “concerned” Concerned about what?
I can answer that if Chyna wants….
A real Christian is genuinely concerned for us. They believe we could go to hell and they really don’t want that because they actually care.
It would be like watching your child taking the wrong road and all you can do is watch helplessly.
Thank you @Dutchess_III. I really couldn’t have said it better and you said exactly my thoughts on this.
I know where you’re coming from @chyna. I’ve been there.
As an atheist with a Jewish background, I have zero interest in what Christians think of me and what I believe. Let them believe in their own god and have their own version of morality – as long as they don’t kill me or try and convert me, they can think anything they want.
Muslims I worry about because of their largely anti-semitic (anti-jewish) sentiments. I imagine that the concept of an atheist with Jewish background is a rather subtle distinction.
What do you mean “subtle distinction”?
Christians and other religious people seem to think that if people don’t believe in their “god” they don’t/can’t have any spiritual beliefs. Who says there has to be a god for spiritual happenings to occur? What’s silly is arbitrary beliefs in human-created spiritual doctrines. It’s ok not to know what lies beyond.
@Dutchess_III @chyna I guess I am confused. Let’s assume for the sake of argument there is a Hell as Dante described it. Let’s say you have a non-Christian (atheist, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, whatever) who leads a good life but doesn’t accept “Jesus”. Does that person go to the same hell as a Christian who commits murder?
It certainly is comforting to believe your life will go on.
When I was a kid I once asked my dad what it would be like after I die.
He said “What was it like before you were born?”
........
He was an egineer.
One of those unanswerable questions that led me to you @rarebear.
Honestly, it was the phrase “God works in mysterious ways” that finally did me in.
There is a terrible flood. 19 kids drown, but one lives.
And the Christians going “Praise Jesus for that kid!”
...what about the other 19?
“God works in mysterious ways.”
I finally realized that there was only one answer that perfectly answered those kinds of questions. ;/ And I hated the answer.
@elbanditoroso The reasons it matters what Christians think is we live in a country where the majority is Christian. That means atheist politicians might have more trouble being elected. It might hurt atheists when doing business. It could mean distrust in friendships or difficulties in the family if say you married into a family that had a very negative view of atheists.
I think most politicians who are atheists don’t admit it. I would bet atheists are more closeted than any other group in American at this point.
I did a quick google. Interesting article that is related. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/study-closet-athiests_n_58f67e31e4b0de5bac41d3eb
Some quotes from the article:
A January 2017 Pew survey asked respondents to rate different groups on a “feeling thermometer” ranging from 0 to 100. On average, atheists received a rating of 50, which was lower than all but one religious group ― Muslims.
42 percent of U.S. adults say atheists don’t share their vision of American society.
In what way do they not share the vision @JLeslie?
@Dutchess_III My guess from my experience in the bible belt is they put together atheists with central government and socialists. It’s all wrapped up together.
There was a time when I had faith in Christianity, so I’ll answer from that mentality. I was young and naive, and my church had indoctrinated me into it’s core belief system (nothing too extreme). For me it was a bewilderment that someone could make an assertion that there is no God instead of the assertion that it’s not known/knowable. It went beyond not knowing and into a kind of counter-faith mirror, that they were making an epistemic leap in denying God in the same way that Theists claim there is one based on faith. I may have even felt like they were trolling the faithful just for the satisfaction of grinding the other guy’s gears, like joining the Satanic Church or something.
Then I studied philosophy in college, started listening to skeptics, the James Randi prize and understood some of my own logical failures.
Perhaps someone who KNOWS IT ALL would have some cogent insights regarding this.
@JLeslie In terms of “closeted atheists” I can totally see it in Red States like where you live. For me, it’s no big deal. What most people don’t understand is the whole Jewish atheist thing. You and I totally get it. There is no contradiction whatsoever. But for Christians it makes no sense. You can’t be a Christian and an atheist. But 50% of Jews are atheists. Hell, my grandfather was an Orthodox Jewish atheist.
I had a couple of very polite Bible thumpers come to my door a few weeks ago. I answered and they said something like, “Do you mind if we talk to you about the Good Word” (or something to that effect). I smiled at them, pointed to the mezuzzah on my door and said, “I’m a Jewish atheist. You’ll be wasting your time.” They said, “Jewish atheist, how does that work?” I said, “I’ll let you work that one out on your own. Have a nice day.”
I honestly don’t think about Atheists at all. When I do, it is usually because of some Atheist trying to tell me how stupid and naïve I am for believing in God. At that point I guess I get a bit annoyed? I consider them on a par with the fundamentalist Christians I’ve met that are rushing around telling everyone how great they are.
From the secular side I really don’t care or get annoyed. From the spiritual side I feel sorry for them and a bit puzzled.
@Caravanfan “I got to meet Randi twice. Such a great guy.”
His prize was sufficient proof to dispel any notions of the existence of the paranormal for me. Before I knew of its existence, I was susceptible to the fallacious thinking that there are SO MANY individual accounts of psychics, or ghosts, etc. that SURELY some must be real, that somehow the aggregate of lots of bad evidence could somehow indicate a signal. But when I learned that NOBODY has ever been able to pass that challenge and how basic the requirements were to win, then I immediately understood that the paranormal is entirely debunked.
@Caravanfan “What most people don’t understand is the whole Jewish atheist thing”
You helped me come to grips with that. one years ago when we were debating foreskins or something. I still think it’s linguistically frustrating and I will sort it out if I’m ever king of the world.
@Caravanfan ” Do you mind if we talk to you about the Good Word (or something to that effect).”
Sometimes I can’t help myself and have to share the “bad news,” especially when Jehovah’s Witnesses stop by and I help them understand how evil their approach to blood transfusion is.
@seawulf575 ”...fundamentalist Christians I’ve met that are rushing around telling everyone how great they are.”
Something tells me I’d rather enjoy seeing someone knock on your door and try to tell you that you’re insufficiently Christian, or the wrong kind…
@Caravanfan With Jewish people it’s never a problem to say I’m an atheist no matter where I am. In Florida I comfortably say to anyone “I’m not religious” and plenty of people here know I’m an atheist and I know a lot of atheists here. Living in Tennessee and North Carolina I was more selective regarding who I told. There is rarely a reason or need to declare it.
To those who don’t understand being atheist and Jewish, I used to explain being Jewish is an ethnicity and a religion, but now I usually say we are the Jewish people, like the Italians, Irish, and Japanese. The religion gave Jewish people a belief system and traditions to follow. My dad once said to me the Jewish people were even before the Jewish religion.
Now, with DNA tests, the Ashkenazi Jews are literally mapped on DNA. It’s not as clear for Sephardic and Mizrahi since they were more sprinkled into and hidden in societies I guess.
I have mixed feelings about the DNA recognition (Jewish paranoia).
I also say that antisemitism kept the Jewish people together, kept us united and Jewish no matter our religiosity. Antisemites don’t care if we are religious or not or atheists or not. If my parents are Jewish, they will see me as Jewish, I have no choice. In this way we are similar to other minority groups who suffer at the evil of racism, but most people don’t accept the explanation, especially not Americans.
@gorillapaws It can be an interesting exercise. It has happened a few times. At one point the pastor at my brother’s church came by to help save my soul. I was already a Christian, but obviously I had more to learn. He started telling me that all the answers to moral questions we have can be found in the bible and he asked if I believed that. I said I had my doubts. He asked me what question I had that might not be in there. I said the question of nuclear power. There is a lot of questions about whether it is good or bad and how would we know? To his credit he didn’t cut and run. He was completely perplexed. He tried telling me that uranium would be a rock of there Earth and God gave us dominion over the rocks of the Earth so it was okay for us to use it. But I asked him about the moral aspect. God gave us dominion over the Earth, but we are supposed to be good caretakers, using the Earth and all in it and on it in wise ways. So was it morally okay to use uranium even when it creates very hazardous waste? That was where he said he’d have to dig into it and get back to me. He never did.
Yes I am often the same in real life as I am here on these pages.
I grew up atheist in a New England Catholic environment. When I announced my atheism to my family, it produced a lot of tears, concern, and confusion.
Then there were times when a lack of belief became political (George HW Bush’s “I don’t know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.”), as well as the fight for reproductive freedom, etc.
But I have had more positive interactions with theists (Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu) than negative, and a strange thing happened with the atheist pushback. The “new atheists” ended up being a bunch of alt-right (or alt-right adjacent) reactionaries.
Despite being an outspoken atheist in the past,. I am not so much concerned about what you believe regarding god(s) or an afterlife. I’m far more concerned about political ideology and how you treat others who share this piece of dust called Earth.
More than likely the same as how atheist’s feel about people that are religious
I really don’t surround myself with people who judge others and their belief system.
I’m still here, so I must be getting something worthwhile from the transaction.
@seawulf575 “When I do, it is usually because of some Atheist trying to tell me how stupid and naïve I am for believing in God.”
I believe that. That’s why I don’t associate with a formal atheist movement. A lot of them are assholes about it; it’s like they’re old men screaming at the sky “Get off my lawn”. Those are just the vocal assholes. The vas majority are just normal people.
@JLeslie I don’t tell people I’m non-religious because it’s a lie. I am kind of religious. I celebrate many of the Jewish holidays and even have been to shul from time to time.
@seawulf575 re: The uranium. Good story about that. This is WAAY off topic here but I’d much rather use uranium than oil.
@hat “I’m far more concerned about political ideology and how you treat others who share this piece of dust called Earth.”
I give zero shits about political idiology, but agree with the second part of your sentence. That’s a very Jewish point of view.
@Caravanfan I felt that way for a long time. But after 30+ years working in nuclear power and watching them try to continually cut corners and doing dumb shit, I dunno anymore. Gas powered turbines are the way to go. Lower carbon than coal or oil, no hazardous waste like Nuclear.
@Caravanfan Makes sense. I am not religious. I never go to synagogue except to perform. I don’t fast on Yom Kippur. So, in my case it’s true I’m not religious. I do little things during some holidays, but I think of it as more doing something traditional.
I could also state I’m Jewish when someone invites me to their church, as long as I feel it’s safe to say so.
I don’t think American Christians ever feel afraid or are calculating what to say or do regarding their religion. Their experience is completely different. Black Christians might worry about safety in a Black church, but that isn’t a circumstance of their religion, but rather their race.
@Caravanfan: “I give zero shits about political idiology”
I should have been more clear. I’m concerned about how political ideology manifests as action/inaction in the real world. My statement was fairly redundant.
Within that context, you clearly agree and do give shits.
“How can you be Jewish AND an atheist.” Hey! That’s my line!”
Please don’t answer that question. I started figuring it out in 2007, thanks to a guy named Benny.
When I asked that question it was because, as a Christian, I assumed every thing remotely religious pointed back to God. There was God and Not God.
I understood that Jews did not view Jesus as the Messiah. That was logical to me.
But it took a while to regretfully accept the rest of it.
I kind of see it as “What will be, will be.” I consider myself an atheist, but after I die I may find out I was wrong. Whether I believe in god or not doesn’t change the existance of said being. They/he/she either is or isn’t.
Yes Oso. March 7, 2007. 5:15p.m. Greenwich Mean Time.
@Smudges….another question. Say I’m an Athiest. I live my life trying to be kind, thoughtful, patient and generous…. but I go to Hell.
But as a Christian I can commit the most heinous, terrible atrocities on a 5 year old, but all I have to do is say “Sorry about that, God,” and we’re good for a few days until I do it again to another child. “I’m only human, God. I’m sorry again,” on and on. but as long as I say sorry to God Before I die (which is what the last rites are for) I’m going to heaven?
And I ask, is being wrong about God really such a sin?? I thought he loved us!
@Dutchess_III Saying you are sorry and actually being sorry in your heart would be the telling point.
Let’s say your husband beats you and says he’s sorry. Yet he continues to beat you week after week, apologizing each time. You know he’s not really sorry, he’s just saying that so you won’t leave.
I know @chyna. That’s why so many Catholics say confessions regularly, so God won’t leave.
The answer to that is you can’t pull the wool over God’s eyes. God knows what’s really in your heart. (Even if you don’t.)
....And that leaves us…. where?...
Funny, as someone who was raised Christian and still considers myself Christian I can’t say that atheists have ever concerned me. I’ve known plenty of atheists who seem to follow Jesus teachings without believing. And so call believers that act like total trash and I’m pretty sure they are more in line with devil than Jesus.
As for fundamentalist, I don’t really know any or hang out with any. I find most are severe hypocrites. Oh, wait I am related to one. Ugh, and they are very nice but I can’t stomach their ignorant views for very long. I would think they are the type to believe everyone but them are going to hell. Not just atheist.
So long as they aren’t obnoxious about my beliefs or aren’t just duche bags I just hope for the best for them. The ones that confuse me more are the ones that go from Christian to Judaism. I had a friend who married a Jewish girl and converted. His whole family was very Christian. In my mind, I find it makes more sense to go from believer to non-believer because sometimes people just never really believed in the first place.
Hard question to answer. I cant say I dont care, but on the other hand with my friends, its not as important as whether they are good humans.
Nicely said @Pandora.
I remember the first Athiest I ran into when I was about 20.
He said “Nothing happens when you die.”
I seriously could not wrap my brain around that! But I was at concert and probably stoned so I couldn’t wrap my brain around anything.
They look forward to when they go to heaven and can laugh at the atheists burning in hell.
@Pandora Just to confuse you more. My wife was an atheist when I met her. So was I. She converted to Judaism through an Orthodox conversion ceremony (her choice) but we are still atheists. Does that make sense to you? :-)
He said “Nothing happens when you die.”
I hope that our souls exist on another plane or dimension and reconnect with others who have been meaningful to us, especially animals. I also hope there is not nothingness. That’s a very depressing thought, but is very possible.
I belive in what is best at the moment. As needed. I don’t ask peoples religions any more. I appreciate that religious people don’t harass me anymore. As I don’t know what religion I am. My doctor says that my time travel is over, and I had a breakthrough with my psychologist. She will go in more detail on January 15th.
And I ask, is being wrong about God really such a sin??
How can something be a sin if there’s no god? And if I believed in one, I would tend to lean toward believing that he knows our hearts. When I attempted suicide I believed that if there was a god, that he would know the pain I was in and understand.
I like @chyna‘s answer to what you asked me, @Dutchess_III.
@smudges It’s funny, but I think it’s awesome. We have one life and it’s so ephemeral, so I look at it trying to get the most out of every second.
In terms of “sin”, the word “sin” is a term that is closely related to theological terms. You do something against your religion (whatever it is) it’s a “sin”. Secular humanists don’t see it as “sin” but as a moral compass. There is right and there is wrong, and we try to do right because it’s the right thing to do. As I said before, I do not rape and murder because it is a sin, I do not rape and murder because I choose not to do it because it’s morally wrong.
No deity required.
@RedDeerGuy1 I never ask people what their religion is. Unless they’re obviously Jewish and I’ll say something like, “I assume you’re a fellow Tribe member?”
@Caravanfan I agree about calling it a sin. I used that term because I was responding to a question using the word sin. I love the term you used and will think of myself that way now – I’m a secular humanist.
Right @Smudges. I said it in the context that I was wrong and I dies and ohboy. There’s God in which case there would be sin, too.
In which case would not believing in God really be sin? Compared to all the other sins we commit willy nilly? My understanding was wrong, but would it be classified as a sin? And why?
Breaking through the convoluted dogma of the Catholic church actually explains that. (The other day on FB I made the casual comment that all Christian denominations have their roots in Catholicism. Some vehemently denied that! They were Lutherns I think. I was like…what’s the big deal! And Catholicism’s roots are in the Judean belief system. I mean, Jesus was a Jew.)
There is an old Jewish joke:
A Jewish father sends his son to a Catholic school. One day, the son comes home and tells his father, “Dad, I learned about the Trinity today. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.”
The father looks at his son and says emphatically, “Listen carefully. There is only ONE God… and WE DON’T BELIEVE IN HIM!”
@Pandora Is your friend who converted an atheist? You said he converted from Christianity to Judaism and you talked about believers and non-believers. Judaism, the religion, believes in God. The Jews created monotheism.
@JLeslie Jews did not invent monothesism.
@Caravanfan I’m confused again! I thought that generally Jews belived in God. I mean they invented him.
I understand how a Jew can be an Athiest too, because you walked me through it. But generally don’t Jews believe in God? (I’m going to ask Judge Judy about that too! She’llbe right. She’salways right.)
@Dutchess_III My guess is thet 50% of Jews are atheists. It may be slightly an overestimation but not by much. I do know that most of the Jews I know are atheists. It’s pretty standard.
Surveys usually estimate 40% of Jews are Atheists or identify as Secular. Depends how the question is worded.
@JLeslie Egyptians invented Atelism (worship of Sun God) about 1350 BCE. Zoroastrianism dates back to about 1000 BCE
Well damn it! Here we go again! Who is Abraham @Caravanfan?
Zoroastrianism, I was taught was the first monotheistic religion.
It was @Tropical_Willie? Can you give me a run down?
I’ve thought Abraham was the first one to decide that.
I know how to Google, Willie. But it’s the difference between asigned reading out of a text book, and a spirited discussion in a classroom.
Now I have to watch Dirty Rotten Scroundrals.
I’ll read it tomorrow.
Monotheism probably dates back to proto-humans
@Dutchess_III Abraham is a fictional character in the Torah. Part of the Jewish myth creation propaganda.
@JLeslie yes. I’m just making the point that Jews didn’t invent monotheism. It’s part of the Jewish myth that they did.
One of the things I find fascinating is how entertwined the Old Testament is with Greek and Roman mythologies.
Which myths and what parts of the Old Testament, @Dutchess_111?
Well like the virgin birth.
The Gods coing “down” and having sex with humans.
Hades.
I can only open 1 instance of Google at a time so I’ll have to start looking around.
Here’s another:
“The flood of Deucalion
In this well-known flood, Zeus flooded the Earth to punish humanity for the hubris of King Lycaon and his sons. Deucalion, the son of Prometheus, built an ark and survived the flood with his wife Pyrrha.”
Here is another.
“On Greek mythology, the most well-known story of someone coming back from the dead is the myth of Orpheus, who attempts to retrieve his wife Eurydice from the underworld by playing his lyre for Hades, though ultimately fails to bring her back fully to the living world.”
Jesus didn’t really make it back either.
In Greek mythology: “Prometheus and Athena created the first humans by shaping a clay figure and breathing life into itro…”
Christians say we were made from dust and mud.
@Caravanfan but we are still atheists. Does that make sense to you? Actually yes. Sometimes people belong to a group or faith, so they feel they belong to something. That doesn’t mean they particularly prescribe to it. Actually know someone who was formally married to someone she thought was Jewish. She converted but she admitted she was never really strong in her faith and was agnostic. Her husband was a con man and convinced her and converted her to become orthodox Jew and he was a Rabbi. A few years after her divorce she found out he was arrest and found to be a con man that used his community to rip off people for quite a few years and his name wasn’t even what she thought it was.
Looking back she says she doesn’t really think she believed in the Jewish faith but she was always a nervous and shy person and this helped calm her and center her because of all of the rules. Some people fell the world is easier to navigate with firm rules to follow.
@Pandora No, that’s not exactly it. In Judaism belief in God is optional. Not only is it optional but nobody cares if you believe in God or not. (There also is no heaven or hell—those are Christian concepts)
@Caravanfan Wow, that is interesting. Pretty sure the minimum requirement is to believe in a God. As for heaven and hell there seems to be different beliefs in it just like there is in Christianity. Some believe hell is earth, some believe its a physical place, someone don’t believe in a hell but rather to stop existing because only a few can ever be pure enough to go to heaven. Some think at the second coming of Christ that a few will be chosen to be reborn on earth and the rest will perish forever. Some believe that we are the same souls constantly being reborn till the second coming.
But I’m pretty sure both faiths require a belief in a God, otherwise it means they believe in nothing at all.
@Pandora…. @Caravan fan is Jewish, and not a first generation Jew.
As I understand it Judaism is is more of a an ancient culture than a belief system.
They have their own celebrations and observances, but a belief in God isn’t necessary to be a part of that culture.
The same can’t be said of actual religions which you referenced as reincarnation, belief in heaven or hell etc.
@Pandora Jews care about behavior. To make the world a better place (the Hebrew is Tikkun Olam) or also said as to repair the world. If there is a God we believe He cares that we do this, help each other, and you don’t have to be Jewish to do it. We don’t even need to believe in God to do it. Christianity cares most that you believe Jesus is God.
I’m Jewish and an atheist. We don’t need to believe in God to be Jewish. The Jewish people are like a nation. Modern day we even have DNA tests identifying if someone is Jewish. The religious beliefs are separate, but also there is obviously overlap. Within the Jewish religion you can be a very observant Jew and still an atheist, you can barely practice the religion and believe in God, and everything in between.
People who convert probably usually focus on the religion; but, take my husband, he converted and does almost nothing. Although, interestingly he really cared about having a religious wedding.
I’ve never met an observant Jew, but I’d love to. I have met lots of Jewish people though.
I have to be honest, I’m not entirely sure what makes someone “Jewish” other than some common surnames and a couple of supposed genetic markers.
@Blackwater_Park Same. Although I have seen future spouse conversions to the religion which appears much like Catholic catechism.
You don’t need genetic markers. You don’t need a Jewish name.. All you need to be Jewish is to be Jewish.
I agree with @Caravanfan. The genetic marker is simply showing your ancestors were Jewish, but anyone can be Jewish. Converts are equal to someone who has 10 generations of Jewish ancestors. I don’t even feel there needs to be a formal conversion. If someone chooses to be Jewish, identifies as Jewish, I am going to accept them as Jewish.
@Dutchess_III Why are you Jewish? What calls you to identify as Jewish?
@jca2…dang it! I’m NOT Jewish! :(
Me neither, @Dutchess_III! I think I may be yarnpocalyptic, though.
If you choose to convert remember the rabbi is likely to tell you you don’t want to convert.
@jca That’s only true if you want an Orthodox conversion. The Chabad group is a little bit nuts.
@Caravanfan oh, because it’s also what the penguin said, that it’s a process.
my ears were hurting me @jca2
Girl twin @smudges. She’ll be 12 in a couple days.
@Dutchess_III Ah, forgot that Jewish isn’t just a religion but can be an ethnicity, culture and or race or nation.
Exactly. I learned a lot from @Caravanfan, who has yet to send those Bat Mitzvah pictures from 30 years ago.
^Isn’t it a Bar Mitzvah for boys?
Yes. But a Bat Mitzvah is for girls.
@Dutchess_III I’ll have to dig it up. It’s somewhere in the garage.
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