Death penalty,why the delay?

In the U.S., there is the appeal process to go through. People deserve to be able to appeal to save their life, I think. Sometimes “beyond a doubt” isn’t so very “beyond,” with people being exonerated years later with DNA evidence. At the very least, we owe these people due process – it’s in the Constitution.

No disrespect but the question is without doubt.

And how do you achieve “without a doubt”?

And the state shouldn’t kill people.. Period. But I have no problem with a person serving life opting into the program.

@Johnpowell SENARIO,Person shoots another in front of a bus full of Police officers,they all witness the shooting because it happens on the bus.Whithout doubt?

Nope. People in groups lie too. I can’t think of any circumstance that would convince me.

@oasis
Scenario: Several police officers kill a man, and then conspire to accuse the only witness. Being police officers, no one questions their trustworthiness. It’s one man, perhaps with a dubious past, against the testimony of several police officers.

In most cases, getting it to the point where “without doubt” is an accurate description is what takes so long.

Nothing is without doubt, thus, the recent spate of death row exonerations, 18 in Illinois alone.

And I would like to add that I think that 99% of the people eligible for the death penalty deserve it. But it isn’t worth it if you kill even one innocent person. And we have done that.

A sibling of yours is shot dead in full view of the Pope,the bullet was intended to kill your sibling,the killing is witnessed by yourself and the pope,the killer is on video saying come closer and i will kill your sibling.
In the room are also twenty nuns escorting the Pope,they have no axe to grind so would not lie,they all see what you see and you all give the same statement and along with the video evidence and the confession of the killer.Without doubt?John Powell?

I think it’s crueler to let a man rot in solitary confinement for 40 years then be ended in an instant. He’s dead, he won’t have to live with himself. When he’s alive he faces a slow death in a dingy cell with no company or human contact, he would go mad.

Crueler or not,the person is still a burden on society.

You can pull all the “seen on tv” scenarios out of your ass that you want. I’m not changing my mind.

How about this one.. I wear an oasis mask and kill the pope. And by “oasis” I mean you, not the shitty band. I get away and remove the mask. You get caught.

We can make up bullshit scenarios all day if you want.

@oasis: you can come up with all sorts of hypothetical situations where there is little to no doubt.

But in the real world, it is never as cut-and-dried as that. People have motivations to lie, evidence gets lost, the witnesses are uncertain or shown to be unreliable.

The answer to your question is that “without doubt” is incredibly difficult to achieve. That’s why it takes so long. Creating hypothetical situations in which there is no doubt, in which witnesses never lie or are mistaken, and in which all the forensics line up perfectly is easy. Finding those situations in the real world is very hard.

Just making a point,you say there is no without doubt,i just gave you an example of without doubt, because you were the victim of the scenario it altered your perception of “without doubt”.I’m now out of this debate due to the offensive manner i have just read and witnessed without doubt!(unless my eyes decieve me or a GREMLIN is in the machine or the evidence has been tampered with or the CIA have a man who works for Fluther…..............

And I am also using the fact that to be put to death you need to be found guilty by a jury of your peers. And they are never witnesses. So the eyewitness should never be the one to decide your fate.

*At least in the United States. Well, it used to be that way.

Okay, even if the facts, to witnesses, leave absolutely no doubt that an individual commits murder, the criminal justice system does not there. He will be arrested on the spot, most likely, and investigation is done. The charges are filed. Testimonies and depositions occur. The trial occurs. Sentencing occurs.

If during these steps, even once, one person says something they shouldn’t have, or doesn’t collect evidence in a very particular way, or forgets to attend to the most minute of details, there is a chance of a mistrial. If not a mistrial, each misstep brings up an issue that can be addressed in an appeal, because our constitution and statutes heavily weigh toward exonerating the guilty over penalizing the innocent. And I’m okay with that.

The issue of doubt is based solely on perception. I give you The Life of David Gale as an example (spoiler alert: if you ever plan on watching the movie, don’t read the whole plot).

Would your perception alter if you were directly affected?Your Son your Mother etc

The government shouldn’t put people to death. Would I convict someone who killed the guy that raped their child? No. Could they possible be put to death for killing the rapistt? Yes. The Life of David Gale completely changed my view on the death penalty. Saving one innocent person is worth keeping the others in jail to rot. When someone is put to death it is pretty much their families that do the suffering.

Also, the state just needs to make absolutely sure that everything in the criminal justice process was above board, because capitol punishment is the only punishment that cannot be revoked.

.

I was in the house when my mother killed my father. So I actually have some background with this.

I have talked about it before on Fluther so a search with Google (not the Fluther search(it kinda sucks)) will prove that I am not making it up.

@jp, thanks for your personal input on this. It’s always healthy for someone with a connection to the subject matter at hand to offer an answer.

@jessturtle, I would completely agree that the family of the defendant is really subjected to the brunt of the punishment. In all my work in the criminal justice system, the most heartbreaking thing I have ever seen is the family of a convicted offender pleading to the judge to spare the convicted’s life. It really sucks.

Any thought for the victims family, tonedeaf?Devils advocate or not,no perpetrator no sorrow,on both sides of the coin.

“please don’t shoot” would that not suck also?

I don’t think wanting revenge is healthy, oasis, family member or not.

By they way, I worked with many horrible murder cases, and still hold to this opinion. I do think that some people shouldn’t be alive, but I don’t think any of us have a right to take it.

Hi delerium,revenge is everything to some,so who takes away their right to it.
I do not doubt your authority on this subject,just offering another angle and it would seem that the majority of posts on here are dead against the death penalty,yet they do not agree with a majority verdict issued by a jury, whom are well aware that if they return a guilty verdict the conviction will carry a death sentence.

Justice and morality are above revenge. No one has a right to revenge. Revenge is irrational, ill thought out, and as blind as pure lust is.

We are constantly taking away peoples’ “right to revenge” (note: I put your words into quotes because I don’t believe revenge is a “right”). The fact that people are not allowed to be vigilantes, to take matters into their own hands to solve disputes (big or small), is evidence enough that we frown upon revenge as an allowable reason for punishment.

I thought you were “out of this debate” about 15 posts ago?

Why would revenge not be healthy?
If the fulfilment is realised via the revenge,where’s the unhealthy eliment?

“that rapist got 10 years,he will be out in 5”

An individual challenges the fact that he/she maybe out in 5 and then under appeal the Judge say’s he/she must serve the full term.
The individual has gained some form of revenge,it does not have to be a violent revenge,which is what i think your getting at.

Because the court system is flawed and sometimes people are falsely accused of crimes. There was a photographer who did a whole book on people who were falsely accused of crimes, mostly rape, who years later had their cases overturned when DNA evidence was allowed to be provided. I can’t remember her name or find anything on google about it but I watched a video about it and it was very moving. Many times the police questioning tactics led victims took point the finger at innocent people. If I find it I’ll link it.

@Jholler(1679)Hello to you OASIS and welcome back,i’m glad you changed your mind and decided to rejoin this debate.

The Life of David Gale was one of the most gut-wrenching movies I’ve ever seen. Ever.

I prefered The Life Of Brian.lol

@poofandmook. I agree, it was disturbing, yet very eye opening to the perception of truth…hence why beyond a reasonable doubt isn’t always truth.

Just to stir the pot here…
Would anyone here consider confession a “without a doubt” scenerio? All previous examples have assumed some sort of trial.

How was the confession obtained? Was there pressure put on the accused? Was there counsel present? Was s/he informed of the Miranda rights? Were they sober and well? Was it under duress or torture, in some cases? Were they offered a plea bargain to confess? Does s/he think that confessing will protect the real criminal?

no, you can force a confession…what was that john Grisham novel…innocent man.

@laureth: Oooh, great scenarios.
@miasmom: Yeah or a programed killer, a la Manchurian Candidate.

Liam Gallagher did it.

I am into instant gratification. Kill em now!

Novels, hypothetical scenarios, bla bla bla. The country that boasts “One nation under god” is also the last first world nation that will not let go of that barbarian lust to see someone fry/suffocate/spasm to death. What happened to “thou shalt not kill” ?

On both sides, court officers have departed long since from their actual job of “finding the truth” to developing “flipping the jury” strategies. Prosecutors give a crut about who did it, they just want to nail a case. Lawyers prefer to plea bargain out cause it’s more buck for less work.

Rehabilitation and resocialisation take a backseat and all 50 states have created correctional systems that ensure that even a guy who may have done trivial things like stolen food or bounced a couple checks will graduate to be a certifiable sociopath after being exposed to the system.

Make no mistake, I was a federal law enforcement officer for some time, and my wife used to work in the slammer as so-called social worker.

The legal system in this country is entirely broken, and has many traits usually attributed to the government of Cuba.

The death penalty, it perpetuates violence, doesn’t deter at all, and condones the same act, killing, if only executed by the “right” side. Killing is NEVER right.

I’m also sick and tired of the constant babble to the effect of “feeding them for a lifetime”. The appeals process afforded to someone sentenced to death costs multiples of what it costs to incarcerate someone for a lifetime. That’s fact.

What a civilization of cro magnons we are sometimes. Ugh ugh, you me hurt, me u hurt.

KILL EM ALL, YEEEEHAW

Gosh this is so sickening.