Have you ever used or considered using seduction techniques?

I’m a woman, so not exactly. I mostly stick to run of the mill flirting, and I let men come to me. I try to notice, however, when guys are trying to use those kinds of techniques, especially the more manipulative ones, like the “negs” you talked about, and root our which guys are sincere and which guys are just trying to pick me up for the night.

WHAT?

Whatever happened with talking to someone you fancied and taking it from there? Like they’re a person? This seduction techniques business sounds ridiculous. Oh, wait, this is from that fellow who wears hats like Jamiroquai, right? Pffft.

woah…. this is really disturbing sh*t….I’m….in….shock…..

so so so so so naive lynne!!!!!

Heh, all I have to say is people who take these techniques and use them, clearly use them with confidence since they believe they will work. And that confidence is probably what the women pick up on. It probably has nothing to do with anything else. So my advice is, find something that gives you confidence wether its silly pick up tactics or something else and you will pick up women with the best of them. Its all about confidence, and this is true in meeting people, selling to people, or just generally trying to impress people.

Not every guy knows—that’s for sure (indoctrinates of abstinence propaganda come to mind). But it does work on the “weak” or unsuspecting mind—sort of like a Jedi mind trick. Check out Derren Brown’s online videos.

The most, though, that I’ve ever done specifically is to direct conversation towards all things romantic in order to get my intended victim to associate romantic feelings with me (and a couple of other tips found here. But, I’m not really a playa (nor a mac daddy), so it usually comes in when I’m pursuing a girl in earnest.

I also think that women respond to messages that validate how they feel about themselves. A hottie with low self esteem will go with someone who treats her accordingly (versus the nice guy) because the “jerk” acts in agreement with her own feelings about herself.

Regarding NLP, this provides methodology in a therapeutic setting and claims that it works when the therapist guides the patient in ways that the patient inherently wants (again, validating what the person already thinks or knows about themselves). There’s also talk about Obama using NLP/conversational hypnosis in his speeches.

Are salesmen misleading? Sort of.

:puts on his Obi-wan voice, waves his fingers and intones, “These are not the ladies you are looking for…. Go about your business.”

Mind games work on the weak-minded.

That Obama hypnosis piece is complete bullshit, flat out.

Really. Yeah, he and his handlers would never do that incorporate those techniques to win an election.

I’m not saying people wouldn’t do it, but so far in reading that document, it’s all coming across as right-wing shit. By their own argument, every single politician would be guilty of the same thing and America would never have a leader because all of their careers would be destroyed.

Why don’t you finish reading the article before you draw a black and white opinion.

> Mind games work on the weak-minded.

@Grisson, you didn’t say “work only on the weak-minded,” but if that’s what you are implying, I respect your assertion, but I doubt it myself. From my extensive reading on destructive cults, I think anyone can be taken in. People who believe they are too smart and too aware to be seduced by such practices are probably easy marks because their very conviction of imperviousness is a weakness that can be exploited. Even if the “seduction community” were nothing but a bunch of clowns and losers that any woman could see right through, I still think it is rash to make the general assumption that an intelligent, strong-minded person is immune to mind games. Personally, I think most of us would break far faster than we would ever care to imagine.

I still think it’s bullshit. They’re saying that anyone calm and collected is potentially trying to hypnotize you. Again, I’m not saying something like that is impossible, but they really don’t make any good points in terms of Obama becoming President. As a matter of fact, by their own argument, they’re using the same techniques Obama supposedly does. ”Because he…” this and ”Because he…” that. “Obama does hypnotize people because…” Anyone schooled in that matter would… or ”will realize…”

Yeah… Whatever.

I think it’s a horrible thing for a man or a woman (see The Rules) to do to a person. It seems quite dishonest and manipulative to me.

@dd, your reading comprehension skills are astounding.

A more serious answer: I suggest you do a search of ‘Hypnosis Myths and Facts’. It is pretty well established that the person being hypnotized has to be a willing participant.

Is there anecdotal evidence to the contrary? Probably. But the truth is that we are influenced by hypnotic suggestion because we want to be.

NLP works wonders—and he thinks everything I want to do is his own idea. I could not live without these techniques….Google Bandler or Bavister—there are some quacks out there….see tinyfairy for more good links

@mizuki, ooh! Examples, please!

I used it on dudes in a bar with a few friends after we read The Game.

Totally worked on them too.

So interesting! I never heard of this before but kind of want to try… I know it’s awful but I think “The Rules” work. I can’t follow them myself but, uh, I’m still single ; )

@kevbo: They are pretty astounding, actually. I disagree with you about the bullshit document. Deal with it.

Your kneejerk and self contradictory opinion is duly noted.

To be honest, the document was so bad that I barely wanted to read through it. Like I said before, I’m not saying something like that isn’t possible and no, I absolutely would not put it past politicians. But it’s so obviously coming from a biased right-wing perspective that it automatically discredits the entire thing. It would be far more believable had it come from a non-biased source.

As a matter of fact, the document you linked to links to another site that declares Obama as the fucking Anti-Christ, for god’s sake. Yeah… it’s crazy that I don’t think it’s a reputable document.

It also links to this one, a second site calling him the Anti-Christ: http://rffm.typepad.com/republicans_for_fair_medi/2008/02/obama-the-antic.html

So yeah: Whatever. I’ll leave this now, because none of what I’ve said has to do with nikipedia’s question. For that, I apologize.

I keep wondering what the point is. Is it merely to get laid with a lot of different women? Is it to put notches in your bedpost so you brag to the other guys? Is it a tryout for a more serious relationship? I don’t know. I don’t get it.

If I had a pickup technique, it would be kind of the opposite of what they advocate. I guess I’m one of the nice guys, and maybe I’ve lost a few opportunities for cheap sex, but I sure feel better about myself. For me, it’s the relationship that is interesting and important, and if the woman isn’t into it, but is just into game playing, then I’m so not there.

If a woman can handle honesty and intellectual conversation about issues that might be a little deeper than where she works out, there’s a chance. Of course, I’m not playing that field, and so all of this is moot. I’m just saying.

With the women I know, the only seduction technique I need is flashing a fifty.

Kev…too complicated for this discussion

gosh, never even thought of those two…better go out and try them! (now where’s some pen and paper?)

no, I usually just make it up as I go along, which is why I’m so hopelessly useless.

@kevbo – Hey Bud, long time no talk to. I have been away on medical leave. SO, since I have not pestered you with my naive questions, I have a question that I couldn’t resolve within the document. It is 11:45 and I have a splitting headache so I may have missed some stuff in there.

How would Obama achieve these results over the mass audiences this document addresses when most of the people needed to elect him never spent the amount of time needed to hear the examples listed at all, let alone completely to have them effect them?

Also, it seems as if the document is filled with poor and incomplete logic, citing:

Saying, for one example: “We need change…and…that is why I will be your next President.” is a basic pace and lead. No person can disagree with “we need change.” Change is inevitable anyway, certainly when problems exist. However, the fact that change will happen, or that we need change, has absolutely nothing to do with being a valid reason why the choice for President should be none other than Barack Obama.

That would be true if the concept of “Change” in it’s entirety was defined as it is in that quote. Change, however, took on a meaning early Obama specifically to represent his campaign and what it stood for. It represented what he was going to bring to Washington.

Hey Bri- I hope you’re doing better.

Regarding your first question, I’d say the “mass audiences” and the “people needed to elect him” are two different groups. The “mass audiences” did, in fact, have time to digest those messages (by definition, the only way this would work is for audiences to pay attention and believe it themselves), and they were quite large and attentive audiences by campaign standards. Moreover, they generally went evangelical for Obama. The rest, I suppose, reacted to the many other seemingly good reasons to vote for Obama (economy, Palin, what have you). Or, they were impacted by an Obamaniac.I would say that whether anyone heard it or not is irrelevant to the idea of whether he employed those techniques during the campaign.

Your second question is a good one. I would even add that the author contradicts himself later saying “people do not rationally desire a change they do not have any idea of what it means.”

But, here’s how I get around the author’s sloppiness. Let’s say that “change” is not a chameleon statement, but that it means something very specific like you suggest. Let’s say that “change” is shorthand for “the plan” that is posted on Obama’s Web site and that everyone in the “mass audience” knows this to be the inherent meaning of “change.” In this case, “change” is a ginormous concept that is broken into 25 topics, and each topic has at a minimum of three subtopics. So “change” evokes this laundry list of 75 initiatives that is too big to recite or envision in the time allotted (although there is plenty time in the pauses to start imagining or listing these things). So when Obama says “we need change,” the brain sets about it’s recitation (which may be different each time and is likely to be different for each person given the range of choices) and that allows him to “bypass the critical factor” and implant the desired message or command. (That’s not at all what the author said, of course, but it agrees with other aspects of his article and with the principles of conversational hypnosis.)

Reading this article the first time, I tried to skim over the partisan cheap shots and empty rhetoric, because I wanted to understand the techniques and how they were employed. In rereading it, I see more clearly how thin the author’s argument gets thin at times, but to me it doesn’t take away from the basic premise that Obama used these techniques. Undoubtedly, they are used universally (think of McCain’s barrages toward the end of his speeches), but it just happens that Obama is good at it. I remember when I first listened to him how I was enamored. Here’s a “president” who knows how to be a vision keeper and how to deliver a speech. I felt the pleasant lull of his addresses. Then, he started backing off his more idealist positions, and I got disillusioned. (This despite wanting to believe.) So, encountering this idea that the “lulling” was deliberate resonated with my experience. The author’s case is sloppy and right wing, but to me it still contains a significant kernel of truth.

Really good question. That took me a good while to sort out.

@kevbo – Thanks man.

Your point on my first point is on the money and one I came to this morning after thinking further. I based that question on a statistical misstep in that the “effect” would be had on those interested in taking part in the process, not everyone who had a TV and could turn it on.

As far as your second point I think you hit it right on the money. Works for me. “That’s not at all what the author said, of course,” I think, if you use the same variable substitution that I used to ask the question, which is what you did to answer, you illustrated the author’s point more honestly than he did himself.

I can understand your take on this to. I had recently watched and Obama interview with George Stephonopolis and could see the polotician in his answers. I think I just made my decision early on based on a couple HUGE thorns in my side and tried to stay abreast of the facts from there on. It will be a crazy ride.

Now…I see…how my SO did it. I feel so used, and dirty (and lucky).

Now they do…Thanks

NLP is more about the connection between your body and your mind than seduction. Its concentrated on the effects of language to your body (imagine the taste of vinegar, or get someone to imagine a lemon (looks feelings sounds smells) and you will notice your mouth watering.

It can be used in seduction, persuasion, sales or even therapy but it isnt some magic voodoo.. its a very interesting insight into a lot of things we do..

Obama will have used NLP in his speeches and his campaign because it is very very effective.

I would recommend haveing a look at the core principles of NLP to anyone who is even slightly interested in psychology, sociology or even for people who are interested in themselves!!

and my view on the above few comments about We need change..I personally wouldnt be concentrating on the change part of things.. this is the first black president who has come up against all sorts of questions.. he simply claims not that he can change, but that he is part of the “we” as in USA.

I know youre probably looking a lot deeper at this but by assuming he is “we” and you and me are too, he overcomes the biggest barrier stopping him being elected in the first place….

and im a brit :)

How did this thread get political?
I use negs all the time. They are very effective play. Little boys and girls do it all the time. And if done well, it’s fun for everybody. It’s human nature. Patterning and framing are very effective. People are sold every day by these methods at showrooms across the country. People don’t like to be sold, but people love to buy.
Attraction is not a choice. It can be triggered. As to the ethics, if you are sold a car after you walk into the showroom is there something wrong with that?

@SeventhSense any other boiler room quotes you’d like to include? motion creates emotion, feel felt found?

There are more techniques used everyday in Sales (from your local shop to buying an Aston Martin) than there is in a PUA’s lockup..

To be honest I’m all for it, if people can further their chances of finding love by doing what the opposite sex find attractive, where’s the harm?

Ok, if your misleading someone to an extent that your blatantly lying then your gonna lose in the end anyway, trust is built gradually not by framin, patterns, negs or magic ticks..

@TheFonz_is
I speak from experience. Your wife says she won’t be home for dinner.

@SeventhSense

your “negging me now?” sorry mate, try another routine :) or you trying to out alpha me? or trying to be cocky funny?

Tyler would be impressed :)

I’ll tell you what, “I’m gonna take you off my list of successful people today.”

@TheFonz_is: I don’t think he’s “nagging” you, unless your wife is a horse. sorry, some sillinesses are too silly to resist.

I do think you’ve hit the nail on the head about @SeventhSense. Sometimes it does seem like he’s trying to needle people, especially men. I think he has some theory about that. I don’t believe there’s much reason to pay attention to it. When he sticks to explaining his views, he’s fine. They are “interesting” even if it seems like we’re pretty much always on opposite sides of the table.

@daloon
I’m still trying to figure out your sex..

@SeventhSense: figure away!

I think you answered as a dude once, but the ass seems kind of feminine which make sense from a heterosexual male point of view or lesbian female. But then again there’s the tits girl and she’s most definitely female but I am guessing most women would not be so bold as to post a female rear, but you’re into other studies and seem to defy categorization…I will say transgender.

[daloon bows] Why thank you.

I do agree that the ass is feminine. Beggars can’t be choosers. When one is seeking a picture to represent a specific idea, you are rarely lucky enough to get something so close to what you want (although it was not totally on target).

I’m not sure what the “tits girl” has to do with it. As to studies, I have spent more than five decades learning stuff in a wide variety of areas. I always wanted to be a generalist.

As to transgender—not really. I most decidedly love women. Occasionally, that gets me into trouble.

There, I hope that makes it all clear.

@daloon
Oh by all means I am more than pleased to see a delightful female derriere
—But call it my wiring. I see female ass, I connect it to female body. It’s like the dynamicduo batman mask. Never imagined that that was a female but it is. Scamp the baby with sunglasses-woman.Ok so you’re a male…
That wasn’t so hard was it? p.s.-tits mcgee

@SeventhSense: Don’t count your chickens before they hatch. I might be a lesbian.

yes, I know it’s Tits McGhee. What I didn’t know is why you dragged her into this.

@daloon
Must everyone question my motives? I used her to illustate the point that a chick uses a name like tits which is uncommon for a woman. Ok so you’re a lesbian woman. Why the obfuscation?

@daloon
And we have something in common. I also like women.

@SeventhSense I didn’t say I was a lesbian, just that I might be one.

If you really care, you should research some of my older answers. It’s quite clear from them what my gender is. Unless, of course, I’m running some weird, underhanded scam on everyone else. But why would I do that? Only the Shadow knows for sure, the evil that lurks in the hearts of men.

If you don’t want to tell me…whatever.

@daloon @SeventhSense could you two get a room? :) :) :)

@daloon, and i was saying he was negging me not nagging!! I appreciate everyones point of view, especiall SeventhSense’s as he clearly knows what he’s talking about, it makes for interesting reading, that’s why im here…

@TheFonz_is: um, that was an attempt at humor. I really tried to make it as obvious as possible.

@daloon i know im sorry.. stressful work time :) fluthering and working gotta be careful :)

@daloon…Thank goodness gracious you’re a lesbian. Now that you’ve been outed, we are way past due for a Fluther softball league. If you can pitch, I can (at least) catch.

I can hurl fantastic insults from the stands!

@Knotmyday: as long as it’s slow pitch, I’m fine.