What is your experience of Shamanism?

World of warcraft 5-boxer! wut wut

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lYdqyU7oHw

Nada.

A shaman says he can communicate with the spirit world. He is often the defacto leader of a tribe because he claims to cure illness and protect the the tribe from evil spirits by going into trances and entering a supernatural realm. I hate to be cynical, but I think throughout history certain savvy men have discovered that “protecting the tribe from evil via their trances” affords them a fairly decent lifestyle. No different than the modern day priest feeding little bits of bread to old ladies in return for a chunk of that social security check. Of course the shamans are actually better than the modern day priests because some shamans actually practiced medicine and had a rudimentary understanding of the healing properties of various plants and substances. So they were that much more useful than Father O’Brien.

It has been my experience that Shaman smoke a lot of dope or use peyote and the people that follow him are lost in their own imagination.

I have limited experience, but it seems less offensive than some organized religions.

I know Father O’ Brien and he smoke good weed, mon. He also been to medical school, and bakes the bread he feeds the churchgoers.

I might piss people off by saying this and I don’t intend to but everytime I say this people get mad, well except my fellow Natives As a Native American I find the term Shamanism offensive. For a very specific reason. Shamanism as in new-age shaminism is appropriation of Native American culture. It is basically stealing our culture and using it the wrong way. If we aren’t talking about new age shamanism then we are using the wrong term. There are more appropriate cultural terms for medicine men and such. Shaman is an inaccurate term. I also find it quite offensive that the word shamanism comes up and many people start talking about dope smoking and peyote smoking. I’m hoping they aren’t thinking of Natives because our Medicine Men do NOT do that. Maybe the new age culture stealers do, i don’t know.

WarCraft 3, they make my troops stronger and bigger : )

Shamanism exists in many aboriginal [pre-Catholic-invasion] cultures around the world and is not exclusive to the Aboriginal American people.

@squirbel And is not an appropriate term for any of those cultures. I think one culture in the world has embraced the term. I’ve done a bunch of research btw.

Share it. Fluther is a place to share knowledge.

@RedPowerLady I didn’t mean to offend anyone… I don’t know a lot about the subject ; hence the question. Perhaps what I am coming across is “New Age Shamanism” in which case…can you educate me please?

@RedPowerLady – There is good and bad in everyone. I know a Native American “Shawman” in Montana who runs a sweat lodge and he does smoke a huge amount of dope and he rips off non native whites into believing that they are being part of the Indian culture. I am happy that your Shawman doesn’t do this. I know someone who gave a lot of money to this Shawman and really he is a Scarecrow and he laughs at how gullibly some people are.

@GAMBIT

That’s the craziest post I’ve ever seen. What do you mean he is really a scarecrow? Wait, don’t answer that, lets just let this go.

@Horus515 – Meaning he is not what he seems.

@lynneblundell thanx for the note, i am sure you weren’t intending to offend and no personal offense taken, just against the terminology and those who have crafted it

I am happy to provide what education I have on the subject. Putting it simply New Age Shaminism is cultural theft. I will focus on Native American people but this is true for cultures around the world, i just prefer to speak about my own. Native American people (and many people across the world) do not have religious freedom. There are some religious ceremonies we are still not allowed to perform. Others we can perform only under government supervision. Yet these New Age Shamans can perform their representations of our ceremonies without any oversight. That is offensive in and of itself. Probably more damaging is that they take specific cultural ceremonies and charge money for them (which is never okay) and contort them to suite their business. It would be like someone creating some “holy water” and then sprinkling it around at their own desire and charging money for it, saying that it will rid people of demons, or something nuts like that. So now a ton of people are paying for ceremonies that are stolen from other cultures. Often times the patients are lead to believe that these ceremonies are culturally accurate which them spreads stereotypes because they aren’t cultural accurate. It isn’t that they are stealing from our culture (which ya it’s annoying) but they are stealing from sacred ceremonies and religious beliefs. And they are infringing upon our religious freedom. And they are spreading stereotypes about our people. There have been a number of books written on the subject that shows exactly how this act can and is hurting Native people and our ceremonies. Here’s one article I found on the internet that shows one way in which it can be harmful.
Fake Healers Plague Navajo Nation

Editing to add: Another Example as posted by @Gambit if he is telling the truth and not just trying to get my goat Someone charging money for a Sweatlodge ceremony (not okay). And smokes dope while doing so (not okay) And now he thinks that Shamans smoke dope. Not just Shamans but Native American Medicine Men. See how that is damaging?

@GAMBIT

Oh, I didn’t know thats what that meant. Glad you told me because I thought you might just be insane.

@GAMBIT Obviously not a Medicine Man. Perhaps a Plastic Shaman.

@RedPowerLady – Yes. You are right but so many go to his sweat lodge.

@RedPowerLady : Thanks for that enlightening info! Always happy to see an expert on a topic!

@Horus515 – Don’t be so quick to judge.

@squirbel No problem, always happy to share what I can.

@GAMBIT Your example is EXACTLY why Shaminism is so harmful to Native cultures.

@RedPowerLady – Yes but as I stated there is good and bad in everyone and I am very happy that your tribe is keeping the old ways true.

@GAMBIT Even if there is good in this person. It is NOT okay for this person to run a Sweatlodge Ceremony. It is not just my tribe. This is Native American people in general (although I hate making generalizations). Native American people do not have Shamans. And our healers and Water Pourers (the people who run SweatLodges) don’t smoke dope. well they aren’t supposed to anyways And I’m sure no Native would like this guy who spreads Native stereotypes. “rip off non-natives to make them think they are part of the Native culture”

@RedPowerLady – Yes I understand what you are saying.

My friend was having trouble in her life and she looked to Native American culture to fill the void and this person took her and others to the bank.

@GAMBIT Sorry that happened to your friend. That is awful.

Edit to add: and if i misunderstood you somehow my apologies for that as well.

@RedPowerLady – Thank you. People make choices.

I took a class in shamanism and participated on some rituals. No drugs or animal sacrifice involved. It was a ritual trance induced by some burning sage, rythmic drumming and deep breathing.

You must be open minded to get anything out of it.
You will see things and you will feel things. It is a deeply intense and individual experience. It is not something to take lightly.

If you have specific questions about it, fire away

@The_Compassionate_Heretic @lynneblundell
don’t pay for what you can get for free

@RedPowerLady – No need to apologize.

@RedPowerLady trouble is i dont’ think we have any ‘real’ shamans round here (Lancashire UK) :)

I believe any practice that truly demands a well-trained spirit/soul is far too demanding for our Western lifestyles. It sounds so romantic to so many, but it obviously requires a discipline beyond what we learn doing our piano lessons or swim practice. I think the people trying to pass themselves off as shamans have literally spoiled the use of the word. The over-marketing angers me.

NO, it is not the answer in our tumultuous climate, because most of us will never encounter anyone with real (as in practiced, disciplined) spiritual power, and I have my doubts (unfounded, probably), that one shaman would take it upon her/himself to address our worldwide “tribe.” I’m curious why you would think that shamanism could be an “answer.” More, please?

@RedPowerLady
What do you mean?

@lynneblundell I have two ideas in regards to that. One is that most of these experiences you can do yourself. You just have to talk to the right people and find out how to do them. You don’t need anyone but yourself. And of course you can include your family if you want. @The_Compassionate_Heretic said he experienced smudging, drumming, deep breathing. Possibly some more involved rituals as well but I don’t know what those were so can’t comment on them. The first three examples are very easy to do yourself and to see results from. In fact I could tell you how to do them.

My second thought is that there has to be rituals and ceremonies that are of your own culture and or location. Are there tribal people in the UK or old ceremonies that aren’t conducted often except by the ‘culture and heritage committee’. Those are good to look into. And then you get a more real experience because they are real cultures and traditions.

@The_Compassionate_Heretic
just that you didn’t have to pay for such an experience, you could have learned it for free, and that would have been better for tribal people who are being exploited by people charging classes for what is free knowledge and not even supposed to be charged for. example is smudging, no one should charge to do that, if it is part of an activity no money should be involved, shouldn’t even charge for the smudging item like sage

@RedPowerLady
An inexperienced person doing a shamanic ritual is risky is it not?

@RedPowerLady
It was at college. Prof is a practicing shaman. It was a unique opportunity that was beneficial to me despite having to pay the college tuition, which I already was anyway for my other classes.

It wasn’t as though I paid some guy from craigslist or anything

@creatrixe I agree it is over romanticized. And it takes MUCH more discipline than people even imagine. And the over-marketing is truly horrible. I would say my opinion is however that I have met people with real spiritual power and been to real spiritual ceremonies. And that there are many Western people that do practice these things (not plastic shamanism but real spirituality the plastic shamans base their practice off of) on a daily basis and their lives are enriched by it.

@The_Compassionate_Heretic But that is where they get you. And that is how they charge. It isn’t shamanic ritual. They stole those rituals from us and other cultures. Many are personal rituals. Something like smudging and “ritual drumming” (in quotes because thats not what i/we call it) can be done by anyone with little to no risk. And many times “visions” or “seeing things” is done by only that person and you aren’t even supposed to speak about it to others unless it is the right situation. So even something that heavy is personal. Not dangerous. They make it so magical and it is just everyday spirituality for myself and many people I know.

@The_Compassionate_Heretic I won’t take away from your personal experience. So please don’t think I am trying to do that. I will say that the professor and plastic shaman is doing a huge disservice to Native people and probably to many people who take the class in ways they don’t even realize.

Edit to add: I think a professor doing this is hugely more inappropriate than someone from craigslist because now people assume that he is doing the right thing because he is an educated man and offering a college class on it. When in fact it is exploitative and culturally inappropriate.

@creatrixe well, the thing is i have a friend (who incidentally does not profess to be a shaman by any means!) but I was talking to him about my varioius ailments and he said he was looking into Shamanic Healing at the moment…

I have come across lores and theories that seem to all point to Shamanism and well I don’t really know enough about it… but the whole spiritual energy, soul, mind body layers thing, chakras, thermodynamics, EFT, tai chi, meditation – different forms of…it’s all very confusing,, symbiosis, healing form within…. chanting…

does any of this really work?and by that I mean…can we experience real peace and get over past hurts and heal ourselves mentally AND physically through this stuff and (I’m so gonna be shouted at here…) most of these practices point to ancient philosophies do they not…which include shamanism, mayans, buddists etc…

going a bit off topic…but what the hell ooops

I am Very interested in this topic and shamanism in itself…but find it all a bit…well…difficult to get my head round… is it a religion/philosophy…must do more research me thinks….thanks for all your contributions btw..didn’t think I’d get this much response!

ok…is this guy for real? and I mean…is what he is talking about part of proper shamanic practice?

@lynneblundell
“does any of this really work?” Yes it does work. The specific practices (not shaminism per say). And they do point to traditional techniques. They just should be done or taught by the proper people and not by “shamans”. Or you can learn yourself and incorporate it into your own spirituality.

@RedPowerLady
I understand your skepticism. I had a very profound experience there, several actually, and while there is more, much more for me to experience, I still feel my experiences were nonetheless significant regardless of the setting in which it took.

I’ve studied with this Prof and I can assure you he was not some nave pretending to be something he was not.

Wether or not you believe me is up to you but had I the capacity to share the intangibles of my studies and experiences I would.

@lynneblundell Holisitic health care and healing are very very important. They absolutely do work. And so do traditional ceremonies. But you can learn them from people who KNOW the ceremonies. Who know how they really work, who know the “side effects”. Then you are learning the real ceremony. It is like learning Spanish from someone born in Mexico versus someone who has never been to a Spanish speaking country. You can learn it either way but one way will get you much farther and one way will have intrinsic flaws. I will say this video is very peaceful, the flute music is so calming (and probably stolen from Native people) and the image of the hawk flying is so peaceful. Also some of his talk about healing is so nice to hear. To me, personally, it’s obviously a load of crock. I mean if you want to follow New-Age healing it’s up to you. I’m not trying to convince you not to. I’m just providing you with alternatives. Learn from people who aren’t exploiting other cultures is one of them. Not wasting your money on people who are selling romanticized spiritual beliefs is another. Do you know any deeply spiritual or healed people who follow new-age shaminism is another thought to consider. Just all thoughts and alternatives. I would in no way try to tell you what is the right religion or healing or spirituality for you. All i’m saying is that shamanism is exploitative.

@RedPowerLady I have no doubt your experiences were real. And I am not taking away from them at all. I also understand the closeness one can feel to someone who helped them with such experiences.

All I am saying is that he is exploiting Native cultures and charging a fee for something that should be taught freely. His experiences and teachings could be very profound and very real. They are still exploitative of my culture.

just as an aside..the exploitation of people needed help and healing…in the sense of tithing perhaps of Christian communities is one “practice” i can’t and won’t come to terms with…I think a number of other spiritual communities have jumped on the “everyone has to live and earn a dollar” band wagon. But true spirituality and faith shouldn’t have anything to do with money in my opinion…glad to hear someone else thinks the same way….

@lynneblundell I have to say to hear words from anyone that say “spirituality and faith shouldn’t have anything to do with money” is very refreshing for me to hear. It is like music to my ears. I feel the same way.

let’s spread the lurrrrrve xxx

Okay I am going to leave this post so that people can talk about their experiences without fear of me saying they are exploiting my culture, whether they are or not. I feel like everyone should be able to express their beliefs in a “safe space”. Thanx for the great talk everyone!

HOW WHITE MAN!

I would like to preface this by saying that I am not a christian.

I find it interesting that many of you on this thread that are quick to tear Christianity apart are equally quick to embrace a spititual experience with the word “sham” in it.

i still believe that all shall kneel before Zod

@lynneblundell Lynne, if you are describing physical ailments, I recommend acupuncture. The practitioner I found for a certain chronic ailment had no “spiritual” bent that she ever shared with me, but her treatments were extremely effective and long-lasting (though the herbs were enough to make me gag). This practitioner was from China and trained in China, and she gained my trust with her very practical approach to my illness. Of course, different strokes for different folks.

I do not trust people who will drop their spirituality into any conversation, like some of the yoga teachers and TCM practitioners I’ve met in the last 8 years. Always, they speak as if they’ve mastered something and are willing to discuss their “spirituality” at the drop of a hat. It feels a little like hearing a stranger reveal the intimacy they shared with a partner the other night. I don’t need to know those things! If I have questions, like you, I seek the answers. There are so many self-professed masters of this or that. When navigating spiritual matters, I think you need to be able to judge things with more than just intuition, more than just gut. You need a kind of savvy or maybe the ability to reject what you’re hearing as easily as you accept it. This is for your own spiritual safety; maybe someone else knows what I mean and can explain it more clearly. I’ve seen too many hurt people being completely lost in the “spiritual,” which I think can break a person’s spirit more readily than rejection of spirituality entirely. The cogwheels of the marketing machine are no place for the vulnerable. There is nothing wrong with being in need. To be callously manipulated by false teachers is a type of crime, in my opinion.

I’m curious as to where this anger about “appropriation of culture” comes from. It sounds like it’s a financial thing ang that natives are pissed off when other people make money doing fake versions of things they invented.

As far as I’m concerned, cultural appropriation happens all the time, and it’s a good thing. It is through the intermixing of various traditions that we can learn to appreciate each other.

As to the criticism about doing things the wrong way—again, borrowing from other cultures happens all the time, and no one culture “owns” their own culture. If it’s in the public domain, then anyone can use it. You can’t take people’s experiences away from them unless you perform a lobotomy and people will make of their experiences what they will. There are no rights to culture. It’s free for the borrowing.

Now anyone can say that this version or that version is not authentic, and that’s fine. People get what they want though. Some may want “authentic” experiences, and others may be fine with a sweat run by someone who knew someone who did a sweat with a native sometime.

You can rail about these practices, and try to persuade folks that it is worthless to experience them, when the real thing is available free (which, of course, it isn’t, since it costs a lot in terms of money and time to locate someone who can “legitimately” perform these rituals).

Culture can not be exploited. It’s not like property. It’s not like anything. It’s just abstract, and it is different to everybody. Many cultures invent the same thing as other cultures. Are they stealing, or doing something that is appropriate for their own culture?

Can we compare spiritualities? Is one spirituality better than another? More helpful? This kind of thinking is nonsense. You can argue it, but you have no way to prove it. Each person will experience for themselves, and have a preference, but that doesn’t mean the preferred spirituality is better for all people.

I’ve drummed for a sweat and then participated in one. The more memorable experience was keeping a hearbeat rythym going for an hour or two. I’ve heard native American flute and drumming, and I’ve incorporated ideas I’ve heard there into my own music. I’m not pretending to be any kind of native. I’m just pulling together what makes sense to me.

If it is the pretending of authenticity that is a problem, that happens all the time. How many people might copy words on fluther and pass them off as their own? We try to protect intellectual property with copyrights and such, but so many people still don’t attribute properly. All I can say is that if you model the behavior, then others might follow, but if you whine or demand a behavior, you’ll be spitting at a volcano to put it out.

@daloon I think part of what Redpowerlady was trying to get at is that she disagrees with the exploitative nature of new age shamanism and various other cultures/practices/religions that try to pass off their beliefs as something that they are not… they prey on the naivety and weakness in people that need help

I still maintain that spirituality and beliefs should have nothing to do with money and as long as people do not exploit faith to make money and the followers of said faiths find comfort and help through a belief then all is well no matter how diluted the faith or the religion may be…or indeed however many forms of religion or ancient practices go into making up our own personal beliefs x

Scientology, anyone? It’s all about the benjamins.

I also agree that faith is not something that can be bought or should be paid for.

@squirbel and…..

Faith can still be preyed upon.

@lynneblundell: but is not the idea of what these practices are or are not in the eye of the beholder? To say one group is right and another wrong is to favor them on, what I believe are spurious grounds. I think native Americans are privileged because they have been discriminated against for hundreds of years.

I am totally sympathetic to their history of oppression, and I respect their history and culture very much, but I don’t think that gives them the right to own cultural or spiritual ideas. They aren’t the only ones who have rituals, and many rituals are similar across cultures.

Things are another story. Intellectual property can be owned. If they think that their copyrighted intellectual property is being stolen, then they do have legal recourse.

Daloon…we’re not talking about owning practices…well…I’m not… I’m talking about religious self-professed demi-gods who charge for their knowledge and wisdom…. totally different thing my friend x I agree they are in the eye of the beholder.

What is the problem? People who go to these folks get what they pay for. There are many lost souls in the world. Seeking is some people’s full time profession. It’s like a carnival trick. There’s a sucker born every minute.

@daloon The practitioners of a culture are the culture. It’s not as if tradition and ritual exists before people exist to create and practice them, or outside of the socio-political groups who engage in the type of culture you speak of. “Culture” is a bunch of “selves.” Political boundaries and genetic links have always been involved in the consolidation of cultural groups, and when an individual comes along and wants to adopt another culture’s practices, they are engaging with a specific collective history, not a “work” that was intentionally released to the masses for their own use.

I deny the assumption that every truth or dictum we need to live our lives by is “on the books.” Sometimes you have to use wisdom to determine what is truly respectful. Sometimes you have to surrender to the greater good—such as not disrespecting a culture who have clearly and repeatedly stated, “This is practice makes a mockery of our culture, please stop doing it.” You have a right and responsibility to determine what you believe rights are. It’s okay to not be post-modern.

Here’s a definition of “Public Domain” from the University of Alberta:

“Public Domain: a work in the public domain is free for everyone to use without asking for permission or paying royalties. The phrase “public domain” is a copyright term referring to works that belong to the public. Works can be in the public domain for a variety of reasons: because the term of copyright protection has expired; because the work was not eligible for copyright protection in the first place; or because the copyright owner has given the copyright in the work to the public domain. The owner must specifically license all or certain uses of the work. This is done by stating on the work what uses are permitted such as, for example, that the work may be reproduced, communicated, or performed for educational purposes without permission or payment (A Guide to Copyrights 5).” http://www.library.ualberta.ca/guides/plagiarism/terminology/index.cfm

This discussion is not about “works,” however.

And here is the link to a definition of same from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain

You said that culture is not property. I got the impression you meant that if it isn’t intellectual property, then it isn’t theft to take it. Most works in the public domain are there with an artist’s/author’s/musician’s etc., blessing, and not because a bunch of white people demanded the right to practice another culture’s spirituality. No connection between these apples and oranges.

Is it possible to demand the right to practice someone else’s spirituality? I believe that spirituality has more integrity than that, and it can not be stolen.

People can borrow ideas and incorporate them into new forms. That happens all the time, and I think it’s a good thing. They can borrow ideas and claim to be the thing they borrowed it from. They aren’t, of course, but they can say what they want. They aren’t getting the kind of experience the originals have.

This happens with my spiritual practice. There are people who say they are doing it, but they have no idea that they are missing the entire point of it. But I don’t mind. I grumble about it. I wish they understood. But they have the right to do this and to call themselves whatever they want. It’s up to the people who attend to find the version that takes you deep, and isn’t just fun for fun’s sake.

Well, we have different ideas about this, and it’s interesting to hear your point of view. I think it brings you more sadness and pain than you need to have. I’m sorry about that.

Shamanism is not a religion. I’ve never even heard of that term until this question. There is no such thing as a “Shamanist” either. Put very simply, in the very most true and ancient essence of the word, there is only the Shaman.

The Shaman is not magical. The Shaman does not possess any secret power. The Shaman does not advertise them self as a Shaman. The quickest way to uncover a fake Shaman is to hear someone claim that they are a Shaman.

The Shaman does one thing and one thing only. The Shaman pays very close attention to reality. The Shaman is acutely aware about the way of things. The Shaman is the benefactor of special knowledge that can only be experienced through observance of reality the way it is, beyond judgment and bereft of human ego.

The word “Shaman” encapsulates the pure essence of any person who sees beyond the veil of human misconceptions. The Shaman accepts things for what they actually are and does not attempt to force any personal subjectivity upon anything. The Shaman listens.

The word “Shaman” changes from culture to culture. However, the essence of what that title means is the same, and it has been with us since the dawn of humanity. It is best reserved for those who observe and accept.

There are Shaman all around us. A beggar on the street, the little old woman down the road, the lonely looking man who dresses funny and walks by himself. The Shaman will hand a piece of garbage to a child and share in the wonder that overcomes them both, finding unity with the innocence of a child, and sharing that great wisdom with anyone who proves worthy of accepting it.

thankyou @RealEyesRealizeRealLies very insightful indeed x