General Question

Jiminez's avatar

Is saying "Zionism is racist" a racist statement?

Asked by Jiminez (1248points) April 20th, 2009

“Zionism is racist.” That is what some Arab leaders are saying. Do you think there’s anything racist about that statement?

Delegates from various countries are walking out of an international summit on racism in Switzerland due to Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s statements that the state of Israel is a racist government. I realize this is a contentious topic, but we’re all adults and we should be able to talk about this in a civilized manner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBeqyCVTEaE

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76 Answers

SeventhSense's avatar

As per Wikipedia:
Zionism is the international Jewish political movement that originally supported the reestablishment of a homeland for the Jewish People in Palestine. The area was the Jewish Biblical homeland, called the Land of Israel (Hebrew: Eretz Yisra’el). Since the creation of Israel, the Zionist movement continues primarily as support for the modern state of Israel.[1]

So you are essentially stating that this claim and reoccupation or occupation (depending upon which side of the wall you’re on) is in essence a racist one?
Any sovereign claim to a land as pertains to race or religion is essentially about a particular culture. So in essence all territorial claims are racial in major part so could be deemed racist by either party. It does little to rectify the dilemma though.

Jiminez's avatar

@SeventhSense – No, I’m not. As per the Fluther guidelines (thank you very much), I am asking whether it is racist or not. I’m not stating that it’s racist. No other country in the world grants citizenship based on parental lineage. No other country (that I know of) bans ethnic groups from participating in their political system. To drive out all Arabs and conquer that land for the Jewish people because they think God gave them the right to that land smacks of racism, frankly. It smacks of race-oriented behavior at the very least.

quarkquarkquark's avatar

I see where you’re coming from, Jiminez, but that last statement is based on some pretty common (and understandable) misconceptions. Israel was founded to be a haven for the Jewish people, who at the time had just barely survived complete extermination at the hands of the Nazis. As such, Jewish ethnic heritage guarantees people citizenship in the (secular) Jewish state. The state does not “ban” ethnic groups from participating in the political system; all citizens are given an equal chance to participate in the democracy, just as they are in the USA. However, Israel is 80% ethnically Jewish, and so other group may not have as much of a say. In addition, the notion that the founders of the State of Israel “drove out” the Arabs is really a matter of perspective. In 1945, when Zionist groups drove the British out from the then-Mandate of Palestine, the newly organized UN proposed a partition plan by which the land would be split into a Jewish State and an Arab State—today’s Israel and Jordan. Jerusalem was to be an international city administered by the UN, and while Jewish groups approved of this part of the plan, Arab groups did not and the area fell into civil war. During the War of Independence in 1948, 80% of the previous Arab population fled the area that is now Israel. Their refugee status is largely due to the refusal of the surrounding Arab countries to accept them—and this includes Jordan, which was to be a home for the Arabs.

Notice that I’m not saying that this is the way things should have been in a perfect world; displacement of an indigenous people is never a happy thing. But perspective changes with a broader time frame: Israel was the historical home of the Jews, and they were exiled unfairly more than a millennium ago.

As for your original question, I think the answer is fairly straightforward. Zionism itself is not racist—the basic principles state only that the Jews need a home—but those who cling to far-right interpretations of these principles make it fairly easy for Zionism to have racist effects.

Jayne's avatar

@quarkquarkquark; in response to your final paragraph: stating that “the Jews” need a home is to continue the rather arbitrary distinction between Jewish and non-Jewish, and to proscribe a special need or right based on that racial delineation, which is racist even if it makes no claim to the superiority of any race. Dividing people based on anything but living memory moves beyond practicality and into the realm of self-propagating prejudice that is at the root of all racism. Now, it may be a practical fact that the people displaced in WWII needed a home, and that Jews face and have faced horrific ordeals on account of racism. But to claim that they need special treatment as a people, or because of their heritage as a people, is racist. Far better to say that those displaced as individuals, as families, and as communities, are in need of shelter and security. Thus, Zionism, a movement to return to a historic homeland on the basis of hereditary right as race or as a people- no difference- is racist.

EDIT: and in response to the actual question, I can’t imagine why it would be racist to pass judgment on an idea, when that idea is not firmly tied to any ‘race’.

quarkquarkquark's avatar

@Jayne, there’s nothing wrong with your response, in theory. But there are some practical issues. The tendency to describe Judaism as only a cultural or religious tradition is endemic to academia; however, the Jews are as valid an ethnicity as any other. As such, the Jewish people have been subjected to a kind of organized and institutionalized racism that has repeatedly threatened their existence. This is not a “self-propagating prejudice”—this is a genetic fact. I’m not saying the land is Jewish because of this; I’m not even saying the Jewish people deserve it. Zionism at its most basic is not about making war with other peoples; it believes only in the right of the Jews to return to their historical homeland.

What I’m saying when I reach back in time to the Diaspora is this: extremist Arab claims that the Jews invaded “their” land are just as valid—and only as valid—as the claim that the land is historically Jewish. Zionism is not racist because it makes no claim to racial superiority; it is based, ostensibly, on a historical precedent, and whether or not this precedent is truthful, that idea makes Zionism a valid belief system.

SeventhSense's avatar

And whether it’s copasetic or not does little to ameliorate the situation in the Mid East. Both sides exhibit extreme racism.

quarkquarkquark's avatar

True, but it’s important for the moderates on each side to remember that there are moderates on the other.

SeventhSense's avatar

Zionism is not racist because it makes no claim to racial superiority
I think you could make a strong case that Zionism was closely connected to Judaism which clearly believes that the Jews are God’s chosen people

quarkquarkquark's avatar

Zionism is an ethnic and cultural belief, not a religious one. The claim that the Jews are God’s chosen people need not enter into a discussion such as this one; the Zionists don’t care much for it themselves.

SeventhSense's avatar

@quarkquarkquark
Zionism is an ethnic and cultural belief
And by chance would that culture and ethnicity include the Jewish people? Of course they would like to dismiss this idea as irrelevant.

quarkquarkquark's avatar

@SeventhSense—yes! Identifying as culturally or ethnically Jewish is DIFFERENT from identifying as religiously Jewish! Zionism is not concerned with the religious practice of Judaism.

Jayne's avatar

@quarkquarkquark; the point is that their claim is based on historical precedent (which is in and of itself as ridiculous a justification as two feuding families killing each other off because of one great-great grandfather hitting another a century ago- the “self-propagating prejudice” I was talking about) and this historical precedent depends on us separating Jews as a race from other people. And whether this separation is based in tradition or in genetics, it is not a legitimate basis on which to conduct international policy, or human relations of any sort, because doing so is exactly what allows racism to occur in the first place. I’m not saying that Jews are any less of an ethnicity than others; I am saying that ethnicity is a stupid, and racist, grounds on which to make any decision. The Arab claim, or the Palestinian claim at least, does not rely on race or tradition, but simply says, we are living here, and you have no justification to force us out of our homes.

quarkquarkquark's avatar

Admittedly, the more conservative factions of the Israeli government have engaged in displacement and even murder in their pursuit of what I think they probably want to be an exclusively Jewish state. But there are two things to consider as far as the original creation of the State of Israel is concerned:

1. The British were driven out by a militant Jewish population that was ALREADY living in Palestine.

2. The partition plan—and, indeed, the Haganah and the Irgun Z’vai Leumi—did not call for the expulsion of those Arabs then residing on the land that became Israel.

Crusader's avatar

Jews are not inherently bad people.
Zionism is often quite similar to other
race-based belief systems.

It is the tolerance of and at times
encouragement of behavior in other
groups reinforced by docteine, that you would not want
in your own that is problematic. (hypocristy,)

Also, for the sake of Truth,
see Goyim, the hebrew word for gentile,
and its application in Zionist extremism.

Not as bad as an infidel,granted, but
similar in many respects.

That said, being surrounded by
a population 50 times your own
size and often hostile, (and dishonest,)
in their intentions, can engender a real
sense of paranoia and fear, Zionist extremism is, in
part, a response to this fear, and, in part responsible
for it.

Though the Jewish
Women are coveted, as all women are
by Islam, as long as they are Very submissive
and accept some rather violent and pedophile premises,
dishonesty to Infidel, etc.. especially the attractive
ones, the Jewish men are reviled, (as are Jewish
women who support their, (Jewish) men.
That said being surrounded by a population
50 times your own size and
Much more land mass their no reason to
perpetuate the land stuggle
the Muslim brotherhood chose
to keep them them and deliberately
overpopulate to engaender world sympathy
against the Jews in Israel,)
size and often hostile in their
intentions

SeventhSense's avatar

@Crusader
The massacre of the English language continues. Sentence fragments, run on sentences, misplaced modifiers and spelling errors are only some of what you are doing. No one can follow your arguments if the basic grammar is so poor. I’m really not trying to be a nudge, but it’s just an affront to proper syntax.

Jack79's avatar

Zionism is racist.

quarkquarkquark's avatar

Jesus, I forgot to answer the question.

Saying “Zionism is racist” is not itself a racist statement, but beware—it has racist connotations, and when it stands alone it is easily interpreted as racist. To call something Zionist is an easy labeling job and one that has been appropriated by Neo-Nazis and other anti-Semites the world over.

Crusader's avatar

I believe that Zionist Extremist is a better
description of a wholly unethical power and
wealth-driven system. Nazis were very much
similar to a Zionist Extremist. Had the Jews
the population to do so and the roles reversed
perhaps Germans would have suffered the Holocaust,
not the reverse. I have friends of both
backgrounds, and the temperment of Germans
and Jews is strikingly similar, belief systems
differ, however.

Jack79's avatar

I disagree with you Crusader. I think things would have been a lot worse. Mankind was lucky there.

Jack79's avatar

A correction on a couple of things I noted:

1. There are several countries that grant citizenship based on lineage. In fact, there are even countries that require both of your parents to be of the same nationality. The idea of the “nation-state” is so widespread that, with the exception of the USA, most other countries are so homogenous that they do not even comprehend the notion of multiculturalism. Israel’s 80% Jewish population is probably below average on a world scale.
2. Nationality is generally perceived. Look at Benedict Anderson’s “Necessary Illusions” for a clarification of that. Jews think they are Jews, even if they were born in the USSR and none of their ancestors had ever set foot in the Middle East for over 1000 years.
3. I will refrain on stating any serious opinion on Israel itself, seeing as most people here are Americans.
4. I would however like to point out that any state that supports racist attitudes and commits genocide should be held just as accountable as any other. Just saying.

shilolo's avatar

@Jack79 Your comment above confuses me. You said, “I think things would have been a lot worse. Mankind was lucky there.” Please clarify for me, because it sounds like you are justifying the Holocaust and/or implying that the Jews would willingly massacre millions of people. If so, that is vile.

Jack79's avatar

I was referring to “Had the Jews the population to do so and the roles reversed perhaps Germans would have suffered the Holocaust”.

No, I am not justifying the holocaust. But I know for a fact that Jews would massacre millions of people and commit far worse atrocities than Germans could ever imagine. Just look at Israel for the last 60 years.

I have re-written the rest of my post twice already, but whichever way I write it, it will simply spark up a new argument. I have better things to do than that.

I just don’t think that people pretending to be Jews should use the Holocaust as an alibi to commit even worse crimes than the Holocaust itself.

Crusader's avatar

We are all accountable, in a Republic laws govern our behavior, honesty and charity define our character and justify continued authority. Whether or not God factors into the equation, these principles apply in the here and now. (I personally believe that God Does factor in.)

shilolo's avatar

@Jack79 It is taking every inch of my willpower to control myself in response. Your naked anti-Semitism and modern day blood libel are appalling. How you can “know for a fact” anything is beyond me. Equating Nazi Germany with modern day Israel is absurd on its face. Where are the death camps? Why has the Palestinian (and Arab population in general) exploded?

This statement “I just don’t think that people pretending to be Jews should use the Holocaust as an alibi to commit even worse crimes than the Holocaust itself.” is so full of lies it cannot even be understood. “People pretending to be Jews”? “commit even worse crimes?” What are you talking about? Do you even believe your own bullshit?

Jiminez's avatar

@shilolo“It is taking every inch of my willpower to control myself in response.”

That seems to be a continual problem for you, doesn’t it? Especially with this subject. Why is that? You seem to think Zionism is the default position to take (the only moral one) and you’re going to shame anyone into submission who believes otherwise.

“Equating Nazi Germany with modern day Israel is absurd on its face.”

“Women and children having the flesh burned off their bones by outlawed white phosphorus that Israel denied using…Fathers watching as their children were gunned down before their eyes in broad daylight after being ordered by IDF to leave their homes…Children watching their fathers and mothers being executed from as far away as a mere 30 feet…Attack dogs ripping the body of a little 4 year old Palestinian girl to pieces while at the same time Israeli soldiers opened fire on family members trying to rescue her…The body of 9 year-old Palestinian boy being used as target practice for an hour by the IDF while his father was forced to watch…”

How is that different from the Holocaust, shilolo? Maybe the scale, but not the level of egregiousness. I take a moral position against anyone who ethnically cleanses people like this.

shilolo's avatar

This isnt about shame. Anti-semitism continues to be a rampant problem, and suggesting that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is equal to the Holocaust is ridiculous and absurd. I will continue to fight this, as well as the global racism regarding Israel’s actual existence until my last breath.

As for your moral indignation, where is it with regards to suicide bombers walking into cafes, buses, Passover dinners and murdering people? Oh, that doesn’t count? What about the killings in Darfur (which is an actual genocide)? Where is your moral indignation.

Israel is always the global target of abuse, because the other countries can get away with it (they all share in this anti-Semitism). These other countries, with far fewer freedoms, and far greater abuses, find it expedient to shift blame and focus onto Israel. You seem to share that view. Congratulations.

Jiminez's avatar

“I will continue to fight this, as well as the global racism regarding Israel’s actual existence until my last breath.”

Why? Let me ask you this, are you a moderator?

“As for your moral indignation, where is it with regards to suicide bombers walking into cafes, buses, Passover dinners and murdering people?”

It’s there. Tell me something. When was the last time there was a suicide bombing in Israel? Please, dig up a story of a suicide bombing in Israel. That would be greatly appreciated. You know why that’s going to be hard? Because it doesn’t happen. It doesn’t ever happen in Israel. Palestinians don’t do that. Contrarily, where is your moral outrage to a 9 year-old boy’s body being used for target practice by Israeli snipers? Where is your moral outrage to Baruch Goldstein who gunned down 29 Muslims in cold blood? Do you think this kind of thing doesn’t exist on your side? What about Kahanism? To me that smacks of racism and Islamophobia.

“Israel is always the global target of abuse”

Pffff. No they’re not. They get a free pass from everybody. You just equate right-minded criticism of immoral actions with abuse. That’s been a long-standing policy of neo-conservative extremists such as the Anti-Defamation League.

“These other countries, with far fewer freedoms, and far greater abuses, find it expedient to shift blame and focus onto Israel. You seem to share that view. Congratulations.”

I just happen to know what I’m talking about, shililo. I’m sorry if you’re not used to that. Israel wiped out and displaced the local primitive population when they formed Israel, much like colonialists did with the Native Americans, but they’re not willing to admit it. Very likely neither are you. IMO you’re taking an immoral stance on this issue.

shilolo's avatar

@Jiminez. Yes, I am a moderator. What does that have to do with anything? That doesn’t mean that I cannot point out blatant anti-Semitism when I see it. In fact, racist, homophobic, defamatory comments can (and should be) removed.

As far as your commentary about suicide bombings, there hasn’t been a suicide bombing in Israel for a while owing to the successes of the Israeli intelligence network and defenses. Do you really mean to tell me that Palestinians don’t do suicide bombings? Here’s one from 2003 and a graph from an Israeli website illustrating the decline in attacks since the peak in 2002. Terrorist groups have even gone so far as to use children in their attacks. Here’s a neat little picture. You can use google images to find many more examples (including lots of pictures of blown up buses and people). I didn’t want to link to them because they were too gruesome for the site.

As far as your knowledge of the situation, you only think you know what you are talking about. Israel never “wiped out” the local population. People fled a war zone. Israelis were equally displaced from Arab territories in Palestine, and in addition, were displaced from countries all over the Middle East that had large Jewish populations (Morocco and Yemen, for example).

The fact is that there has been anti-Semitism for millenia, and as evidenced by this thread, it persists both in secret and surprisingly, out in the open.

Jiminez's avatar

@shilolo“Yes, I am a moderator. What does that have to do with anything?”

Then you shouldn’t be if you have a hard time controlling yourself when it comes to your opinions. You shouldn’t be filtering content you simply don’t agree with. I have a feeling this question was an example of that. You confuse anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. Tell me, do you really not see the difference? You still never answered my question as to why you’re such a fierce defender of Israel. Are you religious? That would explain a lot.

“As far as your commentary about suicide bombings, there hasn’t been a suicide bombing in Israel for a while owing to the successes of the Israeli intelligence network and defenses”

Okay, so do you have any evidence of suicide bombings being thwarted? To me it seems like you’re going way out of your way to not admit that the Palestinians don’t resort to the common tactics of terrorists. Why is that? You’re also very liberal with the term terrorist group, as is the norm with Zionists, as if a paramilitary force’s existence can never be justified. Nevermind if they’re primitive and don’t have a formal army. You mean to demonize fighting back of any kind so as to justify crushing them and annexing the rest of their land.

“Israel never “wiped out” the local population.”

So, an influx of Jews into historical Palestine never happened, creating a conflict and displacing the local primitive peoples? You’re really trying to re-write history? What is Aliyah then?

shilolo's avatar

@Jiminez Moderators are also users. We are allowed to comment on topics. Feel free to give me an example of where I stepped over the line. When someone basically says it was good that the Nazis killed the Jews (and not the other way around), as Jack79 basically did, that makes my blood boil (as it should for any normal, non-prejudiced person).

Why should I answer your question about why I defend Israel? I don’t have to give you any rationale, just like you don’t have to give me a rationale for defending terrorists. I am not confused with regards to “anti-Zionism” and “anti-Semitism”. They are one and the same. The far left and many virulently anti-Semitic countries try to provide their anti-Semitism with cover by saying, I’m just against a Jewish state, not against Jews. But, really, the underlying message is pure, unadulterated anti-Semitism. Jews don’t deserve to protect themselves and have a home where they can feel safe from pogroms and genocide. Of course not. It is far better for Jews to be weak and complacent (as before WW2) so as to better subjugate them. That is the message of anti-Zionism.

As far as evidence of thwarted attacks, it is easy to come by (Google is your friend), but I’m sure you won’t believe Israeli websites (a thwarted attack doesn’t get any press, while a successful terrorist attack does). Would you care for me to give you hundreds of links to images and data on actual suicide bombings and the websites that glorify suicide bombers? I would be more than happy to, but as I said above, many are grotesque and not suited for fluther.

Finally, an influx of Jews into Palestine did happen. That, by itself, does not constitute “wiping out” people. People migrate all the time, and refugee situations occur with regularity (see Pakistan, Darfur, Rwanda, the Balkans, etc.) Many people were displaced as a consequence of WW2. Jews displaced from their homes in Europe could not return, and many relocated to Palestine or America. So what? That, itself, is not genocide, but genocide was planned for the Jews in 1948 should the Arab armies been the conquerors rather than the vanquished.

quarkquarkquark's avatar

@Jiminez and @Jack79

The comparison of modern-day Israel with Nazi Germany is fairly common rhetoric. @shilolo takes issue with it because it is the kind of statement that is very, very common among unapologetic anti-Semites. The comparison is not apt. Try as you might to fit the square peg into the round hole, @shilolo is right. There are no death camps, there is no genocide being committed, and before you contest that fact, perhaps you should take a look at the UN definition of genocide. There have been thousands of Palestinians killed by the IDF, but they are not being exterminated. The IDF’s actions are not malicious: they reflect a certain ideological position, commonly held in Israel, that undertakes large-scale preventative and repressive military action in an effort to combat the very real threat of terrorism. Tens of thousands of Israelis have also been killed.

@Jack79, it is silly to say “if the roles were reversed” etc… the Jews were a repressed minority, victims of hundreds of years of pogroms in Russia and unapologetic racism in Germany. The role reversal is an absurd situation to imagine and is not a way to make a point. There were hundreds of times more gentiles than Jews. I understand you’re trying to say that all people are the same, but you are doing it inelegantly.

SeventhSense's avatar

@Jiminez and @Jack79
Your anti Semitism is blatant and without basis. Shilolo is responding the way any rational person would when faced with such prejudicial and inflammatory rhetoric.

Jiminez's avatar

@SeventhSense – Please, humor me, what have I said that’s anti-Semitic?

Jack79's avatar

That’s why I don’t bother talking politics on US websites. Suit yourselves. There is no way that anyone can convince me that it’s fine to kill Palestinians but not Jews, or that “ethnic cleansing” is any better than “genocide”. What would have happened if Jews were a majority in 1930s Germany is obvious by what is happening in Israel today.

Unless of course you’re an American, in which case Israel is a wonderful democratic country with wonderful peace-loving people who just sit around in cafes waiting for the evil palestinian schoolchildren to attack them.

SeventhSense's avatar

@Jiminez
Almost everything you’ve said. You attack an individual (shilolo) rather than the facts and statements like these:
Israel wiped out and displaced the local primitive population when they formed Israel, much like colonialists did with the Native Americans
Wrong. Israel would have peacefully coexisted with Arabs within Jerusalem yet the Arab world would not have it so they got their war and got their due.

Jack79's avatar

…and btw “anti-Semitism” refers to hatred of both Jews AND Arabs. Arabs are also a Semitic race. Which by definition makes Jews anti-Semitist :P

shilolo's avatar

@Jack79 Blah, blah, blah. You cannot hide your obvious hatred and anti-Semitism with banal comments. It is as clear as day. I pity you.

Jiminez's avatar

@SeventhSense – That’s not good enough. You called me a racist. I expect you to defend that statement. I am not racist and nothing I’ve ever said can be construed as such. You’re trying to stifle criticism by playing the race card.

SeventhSense's avatar

How Israel has stayed as rational as they have is a testament to their resilience and fortitude. Their enemies encircle them and would drive them into the sea had they their way. Any other nation would not show such mercy.

SeventhSense's avatar

@Jiminez
The hatred and rhetoric of the propoganda machine knows no bounds. The Arab world have been known in past wars to move bodies from battlefield to civilian location. Take the dead to justify hatred and engender support. Who is to blame for bodies that are packed into locations known to be targeted for attack by Israel? The Arab world has shown little regard for human rights, sexual equality and global unity. In a Sharia state there is no justice save for a barbaric code that is thousands of years old. Where do you want to get arrested for shoplifting Tel Aviv or Riyadh? When the Arab world joins the modern world I will believe Al Jazeera.

Jiminez's avatar

@shilolo“Moderators are also users. We are allowed to comment on topics. Feel free to give me an example of where I stepped over the line.”

In refusing to let me post this question in the first place despite it being well within the Fluther guidelines. That is letting your opinions get in the way of something that should be done in an objective manner.

“When someone basically says it was good that the Nazis killed the Jews (and not the other way around), as Jack79 basically did, that makes my blood boil (as it should for any normal, non-prejudiced person).”

Well, whatever. That has nothing to do with me whatsoever. Please don’t hold me accountable for someone else’s arguments.

“Why should I answer your question about why I defend Israel? I don’t have to give you any rationale, just like you don’t have to give me a rationale for defending terrorists.”

Because if you do for religious reasons then there’s really no rationalism behind your motives and it would discredit you. I’m convinced you can feel no sympathy for any Arab person. I’m convinced you are racist. Zionism itself is racist.

“I am not confused with regards to “anti-Zionism” and “anti-Semitism”. They are one and the same.”

What!? AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAhAHAHAHAhAHAHha…. sooo… let me get this straight. I’m against the expansion of Israel, so I’m racist against some Jewish guy in rural Russia living peaceably with his family? What does the guy in rural Russia living peaceably with his family have anything to do with the expansion of Israel? Are you aware that there are anti-Zionist Jews? And also non-Jewish Zionists? This is retarded. How do you defend that?

“The far left and many virulently anti-Semitic countries try to provide their anti-Semitism with cover by saying, I’m just against a Jewish state, not against Jews.”

And the far left have a long history of racism, don’t they? With their long history of fighting for civil rights and for world peace. Maybe it’s time to come to terms with the idea that it’s possible none of the shit you believe makes sense.

“Jews don’t deserve to protect themselves and have a home where they can feel safe from pogroms and genocide. Of course not. It is far better for Jews to be weak and complacent (as before WW2) so as to better subjugate them. That is the message of anti-Zionism.”

No, actually it’s not. It’s actually defense of a native peoples in their struggle to keep the land they’ve lived on for over a thousand years. I know. What a crazy notion, right? The idea that someone would call a place home that they’ve lived for a thousand years. Absolutely nuts. And you mistake all anti-Zionism for believing that Israel should not exist. I don’t fucking care if Israel exists. Most people don’t. All we care about is that the Palestinians get a sovereign state of their own, and the “water” between the “islands” of the Palestinian archipelago dries up. See those green spots? Those are the only areas of the Palestinian territory left. Do you deny that more and more Palestinian land is being taken every day? Do you deny that the Palestinian people should have a state of their own?

“Would you care for me to give you hundreds of links to images and data on actual suicide bombings and the websites that glorify suicide bombers?”

Well, I’m sure it would just be a consequence of your anti-Arab racism and it would be people who have nothing to do with Palestine. But what the Hell, right? They’re all the same, right?

“Jews displaced from their homes in Europe could not return, and many relocated to Palestine or America. So what?”

So what? Who said they could go to Palestine? People can’t just immigrate wherever they want at any time they want. WTF do you mean “So what?” By immigrating they displaced the native population. There was nothing wrong with that?

Response moderated
shilolo's avatar

@Jiminez There are multiple moderators. I’m not the only one.

I won’t answer your question about my rationale for defending Israel’s right to exist, but I will say that I am about as religious as the next person, which is to say, not at all.

Modern Zionism really doesn’t ascribe to an expansionist philosophy. Basically, it boils down to the issue of having a Jewish homeland. I think most modern day Zionists would share that view because they are pragmatists, and realize that expansion into other countries is neither feasible nor desirable. In contrast, most people who ascribe to an “anti-Zionist” philosophy aren’t doing so because of the expansion issue, but rather because they do not want a Jewish state, period.

As far as the location of an Israeli state, the land now called Israel has had Jews living there for millenia (you know, both Jewish temples were there, which shockingly were built over by the Muslims). The original British Mandate (which the British received after defeating the Ottoman Empire) included much more than Palestine. Some was carved into Jordan and the part closest to the Mediterranean became known as Palestine. Jews were migrating into Palestine under the rules of the British Mandate and purchasing land (like anyone could). See, Palestine wasn’t a formal country, and the rules were British. Eventually, war broke out, and lots of nasty stuff happened. Sadly for the people now known as Palestinians, the Arab armies lost, and many became refugees. Should they have been allowed to return? I say yes, but that didn’t happen, and now it is impossible.

To answer your other question, I believe that the Palestinians deserve an autonomous state. However, I doubt highly that under the current leadership, that they would be satisfied with it. It appears only a matter of time (years to decades) that another war will break out with attempts to recapture Israel by their neighbors. Israel has always existed under this existential threat, and judging by the history of the Jews (and the region), it is a legitimate concern.

As far as your comments about immigration, people were immigrating all the time back then (and again, there were millions of displaced people during and after WW2). Even now, in the USA and Europe, there is lots of legal and illegal immigration going on. Holland is >10% Muslim. The USA has >10 million people of Mexican origin. It happens.

Post edited by moderators

andrew's avatar

[mod says:] Removing/editing out ad hominem attacks. Try and keep things civil.

shilolo's avatar

@Jiminez I forgot to answer some of your other questions.

Palestinians don’t do that.
I’ve taken the liberty of doing the Google search for you for the suicide attacks in Israel. It is definitely NSFW (not safe for work, or children), so click at your own risk. (Note, if you are squeamish, I suggest not clicking).

Contrarily, where is your moral outrage to a 9 year-old boy’s body being used for target practice by Israeli snipers?
Target practice? Really? Can you provide a link to a story, or is this invented. If true (i.e. they killed him for fun, that would be outrageous). However, even if an innocent young child was killed (which would be terrible), it isn’t out of the realm of possibility that they thought he might be a suicide bomber (as it has been known to happen. Even the boy’s family was outraged at the time).

Where is your moral outrage to Baruch Goldstein who gunned down 29 Muslims in cold blood?
This was wrong and disgusting, for sure. But…

Do you think this kind of thing doesn’t exist on your side?
I would venture to say (and I imagine a majority of people would agree with me), that the danger from Islamic terrorism (9/11, Madrid, London, Mumbai) far exceeds that from Jewish terrorism.

What about Kahanism?” Kahanism is vile. It is also a tiny little group of miscreants (see above).

Anything else I missed?

Jiminez's avatar

“Modern Zionism really doesn’t ascribe to an expansionist philosophy. Basically, it boils down to the issue of having a Jewish homeland. I think most modern day Zionists would share that view because they are pragmatists, and realize that expansion into other countries is neither feasible nor desirable. In contrast, most people who ascribe to an “anti-Zionist” philosophy aren’t doing so because of the expansion issue, but rather because they do not want a Jewish state, period.”

There’s the source of your confusion. You have it backward. Modern Zionism is very expansionist in nature. In fact, you could say that Zionism is expansionism in the modern context. I don’t think you realize the scale of the ongoing settlements. How can you say modern Zionism isn’t expansionist when looking at that map I showed you of the remaining Palestinian territories?

“As far as the location of an Israeli state, the land now called Israel has had Jews living there for millenia (you know, both Jewish temples were there, which shockingly were built over by the Muslims).”

Eh, that’s because there was no temple. It was leveled by the Romans, remember? The Dome of the Rock has been there for like 1300 years.

“See, Palestine wasn’t a formal country, and the rules were British.”

Right, just like the Native Americans weren’t a formal country. What’s your point? Taking the Native Americans’ land was justified because it wasn’t a formal county? We’re talking about primitive, but established people here. There were almost no formal countries in the entire Middle East.

“It appears only a matter of time (years to decades) that another war will break out with attempts to recapture Israel by their neighbors. Israel has always existed under this existential threat, and judging by the history of the Jews (and the region), it is a legitimate concern.”

I think this is the source of your intolerance. You feel like many people are hellbent on the destruction of Israel completely when the reality is nearly everybody is only concerned with the well-being and sovereignty of the Palestinians. Palestine exists under an existential threat; a grave one. The current war-hawk right wing conservative Israeli coalition government won’t even recognize the Palestinians right to exist. Netanyahu is diametrically opposed to a Palestinian state. In what way can this not be construed as expansionist? He outwardly supports the elimination of the Palestinian territories.

“As far as your comments about immigration, people were immigrating all the time back then (and again, there were millions of displaced people during and after WW2). Even now, in the USA and Europe, there is lots of legal and illegal immigration going on. Holland is >10% Muslim. The USA has >10 million people of Mexican origin. It happens.”

Sure, but what about when its a premeditated elimination of the native culture and peoples? Can you imagine if Native Americans all moved to Long Island so much that there was hardly anyone left there that wasn’t Native American? What if they then decided they wanted to call it Native American Island? Well, we would crush them, of course, right? But imagine they have the support of the biggest world superpower? How would you feel if you were a Long Island native?

shilolo's avatar

@Jiminez You said “the reality is nearly everybody is only concerned with the well-being and sovereignty of the Palestinians”. The painful truth is that, other than the Palestinians, no one really cares for them to gain sovereignty. The remaining Arab states use the Palestinians like a tool to harass Israel and as a comforting distraction to their own problems. Without the ability to constantly blame Israel for everything (focusing on the Palestinian conflict), Arab (and Persian) governements would have to face the facts about their own complacency and lack of democracy (and in many cases, fundamental rights like voting or women’s rights).

For this, the Palestinians have no one to blame but themselves (well, also their equally culpable Arab bretheren). Without war in 1948, there would likely still be a Palestine, and it would be 61 years old. Without ignoring the Palestinian refugees for so long, perhaps this could have been solved 50 years ago instead of becoming an intractable problem. Only after Arafat and the PLO started making waves, did anyone actually give a shit about the issue. Finally, by turning down repeated attempts by more moderate Israeli governments to solve this problem, and by continuing a regimen of rockets and attacks (and electing Hamas, yet another rebound from the PLO), they created a situation where there was a rebound of a conservative government in Israel. Arafat in particular thought he could extract more from Ehud Barak and Bill Clinton. He was wrong.

As far as the settlements are concerned, I am opposed to them and hope they are removed. Eventually, a Palestinian state will be formed in the West Bank and Gaza. My only hope is that it happens when there are moderates in charge of both countries.

shilolo's avatar

Also, it isn’t unrealistic for Israel to fear from their neighbors. Saddam Hussein lobbed Scud missiles at Israel (at the time, it was thought he had more chemical weapons capacity, and a desire to use them, given his history). The Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel. Hezbollah to the North is amassing long range Iranian missiles that could easily (eventually) carry chemical/biologic/nuclear warheads. Syria was trying to build a North Korean-designed nuclear facility, and Ahmaninejad (getting back to your question) is continuous in his rhetoric calling for the elimination of the Israeli state. Combine that with Iran’s attempts to enrich uranium and Pakistan’s existing nuclear arsenal (and their willingness to share, for a price) and you get a lot of very close neighbors wanting to do some damage and slowly developing the capacity to do so.

These are legitimate threats, and there have also been numerous wars between Israel, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, etc. So, it isn’t true that Israel doesn’t feel threatened. The threat is constant.

Jiminez's avatar

“I’ve taken the liberty of doing the Google search for you for the suicide attacks in Israel.”

Right. You can find sporadic cases of it happening, but only the whole it’s not a tactic employed by Palestinians.

“Target practice? Really? Can you provide a link to a story, or is this invented.”

You seem very sheltered from Israel’s egregious acts of violence. The story can be read here: http://uruknet.info/?p=m50891&hd=&size=1&l=e

“This was wrong and disgusting, for sure.”

Just as wrong and disgusting as a suicide bombing?

“I would venture to say (and I imagine a majority of people would agree with me), that the danger from Islamic terrorism (9/11, Madrid, London, Mumbai) far exceeds that from Jewish terrorism.”

Actually, those were all perpetrated by Israeli intelligence agencies in an effort to rally support for the Israeli war against the Muslim world. Muslims didn’t kill any of those people. Israelis did. What about the Israeli intelligence agents that were captured and arrested on 9/11 after they were seen clapping and high-fiving each other as they filmed the attack on the WTC? They were held by authorities for something like 3 months. Not many people heard about that.

“Kahanism is vile.”

Yes, Kahanism is vile. And it may be dead in name, but it’s representative of a wider view among citizens of Israel, as is represented by the smaller half of the current coalition government in Israel, in Avignor Lieberman and his political party Yisrael Beiteinu.

shilolo's avatar

Things were going so well for you until you brought in the conspiracy theories. So, on 9/11, the Mossad warned the Jews to leave the Twin Towers, but in Mumbai they deliberately targeted the Jewish Chabad House to make it appear more legitimate?

Muslims would never perpetrate such atrocities, never. I’m done here.

Jiminez's avatar

I’m not saying the Mossad warned anybody of anything. Nor am I saying that they acted alone. Have you seen how entangled they are with our own government? Two Israeli spies are arrested and they convince an United States senator (Jane Harman) to get the case dropped. That’s the power of the Israeli lobby on our political system.

I think you’ve bought into the fairy tale that these primitive brown people are the boogieman. I’m not saying they’re not capable of such atrocities. I’m just saying they’re not guilty of them. They don’t have the means or the will.

shilolo's avatar

Now who is being racist? “Primitive brown people…don’t have the means or the will.”? Wow, just wow.

Jiminez's avatar

I was being sarcastic in mocking what I assume are your beliefs in regards to Arabs.

shilolo's avatar

They most certainly have the means and the will.

SeventhSense's avatar

@Jiminez
Your racism is apparent in statements like these:
Shilolo says:
When someone basically says it was good that the Nazis killed the Jews (and not the other way around), as Jack79 basically did, that makes my blood boil (as it should for any normal, non-prejudiced person).”

You say
Well, whatever.
Well whatever?? Six million people slaughtered!

And statements like these:
I don’t fucking care if Israel exists. Most people don’t. All we care about is that the Palestinians get a sovereign state of their own, and the “water” between the “islands” of the Palestinian archipelago dries up

Yes that is clearly your stance

As a non Jew , I care if Israel exists and Israel will always exist until we can dismiss the whole asinine concept of race, religion, rocks, domes, churches and borders once and for all.
But truly, what has Palestine done with the little resources they have? They were tribes of nomads on the land before Israel created gardens in the desert and improved the whole area. And what does Palestine do with the areas on the West Bank that were willingly handed over to them recently? They destroy the homes and make a waste pile of them.

Why because they care so much about their citizens and want to improve their country? To show their disdain for Israel? Isn’t this like rioters setting fire to their own community? Palestine is not even able to come to the table and negotiate.

And your venomous diatribe is quite telling. See what the house of Saud thinks about Palestine. Why do they not support the efforts of these “Freedom Fighters”? What about Lebanon and Syria. The Jews have sought their people from the four corners of the world to return to Israel and welcomed them from wherever they originated.

Jack79's avatar

7th Sense’s last comment is the epitomy of racism. If you wanted to look up the word “racism” in a dictionary, it would have this comment as an example. Along with “the Zulus were just a bunch of nigger tribes until the Boers civilised them” or “thank God for the Portuguese slave-traders, or else Denzel Washington would still be living in Nigeria”. Oh I forgot, I’m not allowed to post here, Uberdemocrat mr.Shilolo and the Thought-Control Squad will delete whatever I say anyway. Enjoy your “superpower”.

quarkquarkquark's avatar

This has turned into a circus. You’ll never get anywhere by labeling each other.

Crusader's avatar

@Jack79, @quarkquarkquark, @SeventhSense, @shilolo, @Jimenez,

Israel as a sovereign Jewish State is necessary, it is the lesser of two flawed racist Semetic faiths, Judaism, (lending to Zionist Extremism,) and Islam, (Muslim Extremism.)

However, where Zion seeks to dominate with persuasion and guile, and often deception elevating those of Jewish blood, (especially) and the Zionist faith above others, Islam operated with a much more oppressive and degenerate hypocritical system,elevating those of Arab/Persian blood above all others, killing daughters who have (sexual) relations outside the ‘race,’ And feel just as justified in lieing, cheating, and stealing, because the ‘others’ (non-Arab/Persian and especially non-Muslim) are inferior infidels. (and killing, though Zionist often have others do the killing for them…See Jesus and the Romans, also, some modern history…)

In addition, Islam does not even make a pretense of any kind of Free Will, however, and this is its Fundemental Flaw and inherent evil. While simultaneously allowing for virtually anything, Pedestry, Murder, and Mutilations-to maintain authority over conquered territory, and uses the resources and political clout from their vicious authoritarian regimes to infiltrate and influence Western nations in particular.

Israel is a former nation of Jews and Jeruselem built by Jews, it, and the surrounding territory, belongs to Them, also, the Muslim brotherhood continues to exascerbate the situaltin there deliberately to garner sympathy, would the former Ottoman Empire would have reduced the world to virtual slaves had they won the WWI, (*Germans were Very naive to align with them, in fact German are naive in general, for better or worse..)

Also, plenty of room to take in the Palestinians in surrounding countries, but Islam has not problem with having a segment of their population suffer so the the larger agenda will be actualize, generally advancing themselves through bribes to corrupt officials in the West, or promoting ultra-liberal agendas,media,lifestyle(that they would not advocate for their own people/group,) to position themselves at the expense to the prevailing male population, often both.

Would that a form of socially conservative Christianity would be permissable and prevelant there, I would have more respect for the Zionist positions, but Christianity could be easilty co-opted by hyposcite Muslims seeking political authority and, having achieved it, dominate the population-immasculating/feminizing the male populace in the procees,(like what is occuring to the white men in Amerca,) Arabs like Jewish girls though, and Jewish money…Just Not the men. Though if a Jewish girl chooses an Arab mate she is disowned, but not Beheaded, (unlike the poor Arab/Persian girl victim of an (dis) honor killing).

Zionism is not Christianity, or Conservative Catholicism/Orthodox/Mormon, and Far from the best choice, but Far better than even the most Moderate Muslim-as all so-called Moderate Muslims are beholden to the Extremists and their financiers-99% of Muslim Brotherhoodl.

The immasculation of white men, coupled with reverse racism, feminism,as well as financial and social advantages for people of color-resolving to larger families and futher displacement of the Only Group Uniformally Opposing Islam, not just our of preservation of lifestyle and freedom, but as a moral imperative,-social conservative Protestants and Orthodox, (Occassionally Catholics..) and atheism all contribute to
islamic incursion.

SeventhSense's avatar

@Crusader
WTF are you smoking?

Crusader's avatar

@SeventhSence,

Dissmissive remark and feigned amusement. Predicatable. is it possible to not be in Complete agreement and still maintain a dialogue? Much less an accord? Another hallmark of Zionist extremism…Learn,please.

quarkquarkquark's avatar

@Crusader, you are racist. You are racist, and you have terrible spelling and grammar, which makes your points very difficult to understand, if they exist at all. But hey, you’re racist.

SeventhSense's avatar

@Crusader
I need an interpretor for your statements:

“The immasculation of white men, coupled with reverse racism, feminism,as well as financial and social advantages for people of color-resolving to larger families and futher displacement of the Only Group Uniformally Opposing Islam, not just our of preservation of lifestyle and freedom, but as a moral imperative,-social conservative Protestants and Orthodox, (Occassionally Catholics..) and atheism all contribute to
islamic incursion.”

Sometimes I start to think that you may actually have a point of view and then I’m lost by your grammar.
And then with statements like the above I think that you have nothing to say and no grasp of the English language.

Jiminez's avatar

@SeventhSense – I’ll come back when I have time and address your obvious intentional ignorance and incorrigible deviousness, but for now just watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLUJ4fF2HN4

SeventhSense's avatar

Do pardon my intentional ignorance and incorrigible deviance but I don’t understand the language and there are no subtitles.

quarkquarkquark's avatar

It means nothing to show civilians killed in a military action. It’s rhetoric. Any military action involves collateral damage. You cannot attack an intention by displaying a narrow picture of its end result.

Jiminez's avatar

Dude, what’s the title of the video? I think it will surprise you. Click the little think at the right-hand corner for subtitles.

SeventhSense's avatar

Is it horrific that a man’s daughters were killed by a bomb? Yes of course.

Is it horrific that Hamas, a terrorist organization holds its people hostage and demands all aid come through them, so they can continue their propoganda? Yes of course.

Is it a black and white issue of brutality? Absolutely not. It is a primitive mind set based on primitive principles of race and difference.

How about the tens of thousands of rockets that were randomly fired into Israel for years by Hamas. Do Israeli’s also have the right to not live in terror in their living rooms?

Do I think israel is right? No

Do I think Palestine is right? No.

Does there need to be a quantum leap in consciousness to solve this? Yes
Until then death will continue.

Crusader's avatar

@SeventhSense, @quarkquarkquark,

I sincerely pray that you and yours are not so arrogant now as to perceive yourself above accountability, honesty, and love while reigning propagando down upon the head of us unworthy goyim…I have loved a Jewish girl and wish her the best she lives in Tel Aviv. A wonderful person. I have played soccer with many Arab/Persian men, great athletes and a nice brotherhood…I am of some Jewish and Syrian heritage, and Western European, and I love the Lord thy god with all my Heart and my neighbor as myself. Enough love, yes, to be attacked repeated for giving exortation and correction, for only a friend informs his neighbor of an unpleasant reality, the indifferent or the adversary would prefer your demise, or not care one way or the other.

quarkquarkquark's avatar

That was very nice, but still does not relate to anything at all. I approve of your lifestyle, though.

SeventhSense's avatar

@Crusader
Perhaps you can recognize the wisdom in this prayer:

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change,
The courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Crusader's avatar

@quarkquarkquark
Thank you for the attribution of ‘nice’ but, I must respectfully disagree about its appropriateness, to personalize the discussion adds credibility to my assertions, I believe. And that I have not accepted the easy path, instead adopted a path that is difficult, for the sake of all.

@SeventhSense
Yes, these are words of wisdom, thank you. I, personally believe that, with enough faith, applied with love, and expressed with hope that anything can be changed, Courage is from the Lord, as is the Wisdom.

Oh clap your hands all you peoples! Shout to God with the voice of triumph! For the Lord Most High is awesome; He is a great King over all the earth. He will subdue the peoples under us, and the nations under our feet. He will choose our inheritance for us, the excellence of Jacob whom He loves. God has gone up with a shout the lord with the sound of a trumpet. Sing praises to God sing praises! Sing praises to our King, sing praises! For God is the King of the earth; sing praises with understanding. God reigns over the nations; God sits on His holy throne. The princes of the people have gathered together, the people of the God of Abraham. For the shields of the earht belong to God; He is greatly exhalted.

Psalm 47

The wicked flee, when no one pursues, but the righteous are bold as a lion, because of the transgression of a land, many are its princes; but by a man of understnding and knowledge right will be prolonged. A poor man who oppresses the poor is like a driving rain which leaves no food. Whose who forsake the law praise the wicked, but such as keep the law contend with them. Evil men do not understand justice, but thouse who seek the Lord understand all. Better is the poor who walks in his integrity than one perverse in his ways though he be rich. whoever keeps the law is a discenerning son, but a companion of glutton shames his father.

Prover chapter 28 1–7

SeventhSense's avatar

@Crusader
I am a Goyim or as I prefer Gentile.

quarkquarkquark's avatar

Goyim is plural. You are a goy.

SeventhSense's avatar

See…I guess I’m an uber goy. I hate all racial terms anyway. Someday we’ll dispense with all of them and just be human beings

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