General Question

manoffaith3112's avatar

Will you be willing to carry around a national ID and/or an ID chip or would you refuse having one?

Asked by manoffaith3112 (257points) April 24th, 2009

A chip is already used on American’s passport, and in the future having a national ID with a computer chip or a computer chip put into a person’s hand or shoulder will be required.
Although its been extended to be put into effect in the year 2011 having a national ID has been signed into law for Americans by the president. Unlike social security or Drivers License an ID will be required to ride a train, fly in a commercial plane, go into a federal building, and to be able to have a savings or checking account at a bank. Perhaps it will be required to do any buying or selling in America, too. It will also be a way for satellites to figure out where you are at any time night or day.

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100 Answers

casheroo's avatar

They already take a sample of our blood at birth, so carrying yet another form of ID means nothing to me. Just another thing to lose all the time.

asmonet's avatar

And I think it’s a bit arrogant and ridiculous if anyone thinks they’re going to be the target of some satellite at any given moment.

You’re not that special.

Just sayin’.

manoffaith3112's avatar

This can effect one’s social security, disability insurance, and unemployment insurance.

I don’t like to think about any conspiracy, but I’m not planning on getting chipped any time soon. If I can I’ll fight it.

manoffaith3112's avatar

I don’t especially trust people in power.

asmonet's avatar

And they don’t especially care if you exist, or how often you drive to the store, pee in your bathroom or go to work.

Unless, you know…you’re like James Bond and shit.

qualitycontrol's avatar

I’m american, so I’m cool with it

casheroo's avatar

Well, how do you feel about the blood sample they take? I’m sure that bugs you out.

lefteh's avatar

I don’t really care. I have nothing to hide.

Blondesjon's avatar

No more than I am willing to hand my soul to Satan or recognize Utah as a state.

manoffaith3112's avatar

That blood sample wasn’t required when I was born…...
However, our government can put our contitution, and Bill of Rights away any time they like. Right now the U.S. Federal Governemt can track phone calls, find out where you’ve been on the internet, track what books a person checks out at the public library, and can search private property with no warrant. They can also take away habeas corpus from individuals which means any one can be put away into prison with out seeing a lawyer for as many years as they want you there.
Am I the only one who sees a loss of rights as an American? This is not what our Founding Fathers had in mind is it?

SeventhSense's avatar

Habeas Corpus has been decimated and people think it’s a joke.
I would personally resist any further intrusion on my privacy. People who think that it’s only a simple I.D are mistaken. It is a violation of civil liberties. Wait until you can’t give junior a 5 dollar bill without the government knowing about it and taxing you for the tip you leave at the car wash. And how do you think you stoners are going to buy a bag of weed in a cashless society? With a visa?

westy81585's avatar

Well someones been listening to a bit too much talk radio.

There is NO ID card or chip. The entire idea of it was thought up by hardcore right and left wing nut jobs, who think the other side is trying to turn us into a fascist government.

No president has signed anything, no law has even been brought up in congress (Do you REALLY think the conservatives would’ve let that pass without raising a fuss?).

The OP on this is an idiot, and anyone who believes this would actually happen in america, needs to take a step back, take a deep breath, and then THINK.

manoffaith3112's avatar

That is part of the big picture that may be hard to see at just a glance SeventhSense.

True “Freedom” costs. There is a cost to be paid for us to remain free. The government is not supposed to be stretching and moving around with more power year by year to contain citizens against their will. The people were supposed to be the importand ones with individual rights. We are not supposed to be stuck with a Government that uses power against us.

westy81585's avatar

The Republicans made a shit storm when they introduced a bill to track boxes of bullets and label them, so we could find out who purchased them. Do you REALLY think they would let something like this pass?

For that matter do you think that 90% of the people in our country would pass for this?

What is it with all these nut jobs that think the government is out to get us? What the hell would they have to gain? They’re a government OF the people. Seriously, go get an education or something.

Judi's avatar

I’m with @SeventhSense. If I am going to complain about the Patriot act and invasion of my civil liberties when there is a republican in office, I am not going to stop complaining about government intrusion just because there’s a democrat. My daughter destroyed the chip inside her son’s passport when he got it. I don’t want the government to know my every move even IF I’m not doing anything wrong. That’s like how the right said, “if you’re not doing anything wrong why should you mind the government listening in on your phone calls. ” It’s all bad.

RedPowerLady's avatar

Now I don’t think this will happen. But if it did I would fight it tooth and nail. And I believe many others would as well. And I believe we would win.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@Judi Does the passport still work with the chip crushed?

Zaku's avatar

No, it’s totally unacceptable.

manoffaith3112's avatar

I did research it. It has been signed into law although its been extended from its original date.

It may be the first time but; both the ACLU and Christian organizations are on the same side fighting this law though its already been signed by President Clinton.

Isn’t it innocent before being proved guilty?

By the way I do not listen to talk radio. Don’t be hostile at me just because I’ve been giving information thats available else where on the internet. I never started this. Just interested what other’s response would be.

jrpowell's avatar

So how do you feel about a social security number?

edit… I should add that I am pissed about RDIF chips in passports. But a national ID has been around a long time.

Judi's avatar

@RedPowerLady;
Right now it does.

manoffaith3112's avatar

I suspect about the time any one notices it will seem to be too late.
There will be some media that will cover it and be used as propaganda in favor or it.

Judi's avatar

Are they planning on putting the chip in the national ID?

asmonet's avatar

@manoffaith3112: Who cares what porn I watch, what calls I make or who I see? For that matter, why do I care if anyone knows? I saw some gay porn yesterday, called Geico today and hung out with Michelle and Meredith. OH NOEZ! PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT AS MUCH AS I TWITTER ABOUT!!!!!11!!!!11!

All of the paranoia rests on one fact, the inability to see yourself as unimportant.

Sorry, dude. But out of the 306,287,000+ people in this country, you’re not even near the top of the interesting list. None of us are. What’s the big deal?

SeventhSense's avatar

@westy81585
People don’t get it. THEY’RE NOT ASKING US.
MONEY RULES THE WORLD. It’s not “we the people”.
Did anyone ask you about the passport situation? Was anyone asked whether they wanted to have to place barcodes on their merchandise in order to sell products? Was anyone asked whether they had a choice whether they had to SURRENDER ALL THEIR GOLD by the Roosevelt administration back in 1933? His Secretary of Sate demanded the surrender of all gold and gold bullion held by the public. Hoover was dead on when he declared that the abandonmemt of the Gold standard was the beginning of Socialism. He stated that Gold was essential to the people for protection against manipulation of inflation and deflation by the government which is exactly what we have today. The Emperor Roosevelt created a monster out of the United States government.

Judi's avatar

@asmonet ; so Bush’s warrantless wiretaps were fine with you?

manoffaith3112's avatar

Its a matter of power. They’ll have all the power and we’ll have nothing.

So, you won’t mind showing papers any time those in authority says you have to? To have to be under a facist government with individual rights thrown away is not something I would like to revel in. I think that way of conducting business reminds me of other famous movements. Like Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, or other famous dictator countrys. We’ll be considered some kind of number or product instead of people who deserve dignity.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@asmonet Such policies do more harm than is inherently evident, groups of people can be targeted and have been in the past. Even people today who were part of activist groups in the past like the American Indian Movement or the Black Panther Party are on occasion “found” by the FBI and treated poorly to say the least. The fact of the matter is not if we are important or not. It is what they could do if they wanted to do it. There is so much persecution based on belief systems that I wouldn’t want anything extra adding to that. And tracking people would just make such things that much easier. Not to mention that it is against our civil liberties and if we don’t fight it now then who knows what other liberties they would step on. IF of course such a thing does happen.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@manoffaith3112 Reminds me of the same.

asmonet's avatar

@Judi / @RedPowerLady: I have nothing to hide, I don’t agree with the practice but in how it might have applied to my life personally. Yep, didn’t bother me. Statistically, odds are, I wasn’t remotely interesting.

But I don’t think the two can be compared. Wiretapping by BushCo was done for almost no reason, imo. Whereas chipping and a national ID would have some benefits.

Sure, chipping might tell them where you are and they could track you for funsies, but they could also find you if you were killed or kidnapped. They could find your child, your parent any loved one with a flick of a switch. Much better than an Amber Alert.

I guess I have more faith in people than you guys do.

asmonet's avatar

@manoffaith3112: As if I don’t have to show ID when I go to a nightclub, a bar or if an officer asks me to already? I flash ID everywhere, and I don’t think twice. My passport has a number, I have a SS Number, and my License has a number, how are they different?

RedPowerLady's avatar

@asmonet But I am part of a culture that has been mass murdered by the FBI, has been a product of Genocide, and has had our religious rights trampled on. It’s not a matter of being unfaithful of those in power. It is a matter of evidence. The things you mentioned are good things. But the possibility of the bad by far outweighs the good. And since the bad has happened w/out the chips I’m sure it would happen with them. Just much easier.

asmonet's avatar

@RedPowerLady: And I simply disagree. :)

While I can see your point, I don’t think that kind of abuse happens that often anymore in this country. So I don’t think it’s as big of a risk as you.

Agree to disagree? :)

manoffaith3112's avatar

Yes the actual National Id is supposed to be having a computer chip Judi.
Here is something that could stop it. Taken from one of the sites that provide information about it.

The Baucus-Tester and the Grassley-Baucus amendments to the current immigration bill making its way through the Senate will strip all REAL ID provisions from the bill. Fax your Senators and tell them to support these amendments and say ‘No’ to REAL ID in the Immigration Bill.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@asmonet I am certainly willing to agree to disagree. But just so you know the mass murders by the FBI happened in the 60s. People being persecuted for religious beliefs happens today. It does happen. If you are not a part of the culture you may not realize it, but it is very real.

knitfroggy's avatar

Would it really be that much different from a driver’s license? I mean, what does it matter? “They” already know who you are anyway when you are born and get your social security number. Another form of ID doesn’t bother me, cuz I ain’t going anywhere and I currently am not planning on doing anything wrong.

asmonet's avatar

And, what are these mass murders you mention? That just seems like hyperbole, but I’m all ears. :)

I understand people are targeted and discriminated against, but I do not believe our government actively participates in it, or would inside our borders. I realize other countries it is a MUCH bigger problem in other countries and they face it daily.

I know we’ve sterilized tens of thousands of people, put ethnic groups in camps, etc.
But tell me the last time something like that happened to our citizens (those that most likely would have the ID/Chip)?

SeventhSense's avatar

@asmonet
@knitfroggy
I don’t agree with the practice but in how it might have applied to my life personally.
To say since something does not personally apply to you at any given moment in time is not necessarily in the best interest of the populace. To stay you don’t necessitate the presumption of “innocent until proven guilty” because you have not commited any crimes fails to take into consideration the protections afforded under such measures for all citizens. A society which willingly surrenders it’s rights will be subjects not citizens.

asmonet's avatar

@knitfroggy: Exactly, licenses, numbers, even the Child Fingerprinting back in the day that met such opposition are all forms of government identification. They all serve to track us. We put our personal and financial information on the freaking internet, a chip in our wrist, in a card or an ID isn’t that big a step.

It’s just the next logical progression with the technology available to us.

asmonet's avatar

@SeventhSense: I said it didn’t affect me personally because it doesn’t change anything about my life. I do understand what it can do for others, I said I didn’t agree with it. I was talking about two different things. His actions never affected me, and I see no reason currently why they would. I don’t appreciate you implying I have such a flimsy grasp of the matter.

manoffaith3112's avatar

I can trust people.

But not an impersonal government.

Its like the old story of the frog in the pan.

A frog was put in a pan of water, and he liked it. He could spash around, and float, and enjoy himself.
However the pan of water had been placed on the stove, and the burner was turned on.
It wasn’t much noticed at first because it was just put on warm. But over time the heat was increased in slow increments, and it still felt good….at first.
The frog spashed around and didn’t notice the heat going up and up until it was too late. He noticed how hot it had got too late. He figured it out right before croaking because by then he was cooked.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@asmonet In the 70s the murders were largly directed at members of the American Indian Movement. Here is a bit of information on the FBI’s movement against the people who followed the movement. At this time there was little documentation by Native people as we were having our rights trampled on repeatedly so I don’t know how to find much “proof” for you. I can say I know people personally who have been through this.
http://www.thepeoplespaths.net/special/aim-fbi.htm

Not to mention them targeting members of the Black Panther party which is more documented than the American Indian Movement.
http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/cointelpro/churchfinalreportIIIc.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hampton

Also if we want to discuss the death of children you can look at the Boarding School Movement which was predominant in the 60s with I believe the last one being closed in the early 90s. The government literally stole Native children from their parents and put them into full time boarding schools. This was about forced assimilation. But the living conditions were so poor and abuse was so rampant that the amount of children who died in the boarding schools is alarming. This happened so recently. There is nothing to say that something like this could not happen again.
http://bsnorrell.blogspot.com/2009/02/indian-boarding-schools-auschwitz-in.html
( i could provide you with a million resources on this if you’d like).

If you want a farther back mass murder by the government. Look up “Wounded Knee”.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/knee.htm
(millions of resources on this as well)

These are only deaths I’m talking about. I could provide more sources on religious rights being trampled on even today. And how the government could use the chips to infringe upon cultural religious rights. For example right now they are targeting people with Eagle Feathers in their possession. This is happening right now. ( i could provide resources for this and others as well).

SeventhSense's avatar

@asmonet
I’m not implying anything personal. The implication from your intent and your further answers (a chip in our wrist) is that you would willingly go along with a process of the government branding us like cattle and I disagree with this. Furthermore I think that it is such threat to the social order that it could cause a civil war.

manoffaith3112's avatar

With the present day drivers license information about whether we have a criminal past will come up on a computer, and all that goes with that.
But with the sixteen numbered chip it would be possible to have any or all information about a person on the chip. How much money you’ve made, what is your medical condition which could effect what job your allowed to work, where you live or are allowed to live, what you buy, have you ever made a mistake and broke any law ever, and other personal things that would become public record. It would be available to organizations and business and government that really is none of their business.
I’m not even sure the ID card would necessarily keep us any safer either. But little by little our private information would be available, and its one more step to invade our lives and take away individual rights.

manoffaith3112's avatar

This ReaL ID law was never voted on by any voter specifically. It was put on the trail end of a defense bill that was passed, and its doubtful whether many representatives even read it at the time.

I was suprised to learn about it, and hopefully less naive about it.

SeventhSense's avatar

And as @RedPowerLady said,
The government literally stole Native children from their parents and put them into full time boarding schools. This was about forced assimilation.
And this is what people need to understand. If this can happen to Native Americans, this can happen to any Americans.

SquirrelEStuff's avatar

http://www.verichipcorp.com/news/1240243649

DELRAY BEACH, FL – April 20, 2009—VeriChip Corporation (NASDAQ:CHIP) (“VeriChip”), a provider of radio frequency identification (RFID) systems for healthcare and patient-related needs, announced today that it has sold the VeriTrace™ system for disaster relief and emergency management needs to Atlantic and Mercer counties in New Jersey.
Marc Poulshock, Vice President of VeriChip’s Implantable and Emergency Management divisions, said, “These recent orders reflect the continued demand for the VeriTrace system by emergency management personnel and medical examiners throughout the country. Since the federal government continues to support the necessity to be prepared for potential natural catastrophes or acts of terrorism, we will maintain our ongoing discussions with these organizations in the U.S. and internationally.”

The VeriTrace system was created in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina where it proved helpful in identifying, tracking and accounting for the remains of victims from the hurricane. VeriTrace was used by the Federal Disaster Mortuary Operational Response Team (DMORT) during Hurricane Katrina recovery operations.

VeriTrace is designed to assist state and federal agencies in the management of emergency situations and disaster recovery using implantable RFID technology. The VeriTrace system includes a unique implantable RFID microchip, a VeriTrace Bluetooth™ handheld reader, a customized Ricoh 500SE Digital Camera capable of receiving both RFID scanned data and GPS data wirelessly, and a Web-enabled database for gathering and storing information and images captured during emergency response operations. This database ensures the precise collection, storage and inventory of all data and images related to remains and the associated evidentiary items. This also allows the recreation of an accurate and complete reconstruction of a disaster setting, crime scene or similar setting where recreation is necessary.

I would highly recommend reading the book written by Sinclair Lewis called It Cant Happen Here.

Who are we supposed to rely on to tell us if any of this bad stuff is happening?? Our press is completely corporate run.

asmonet's avatar

Eh, whatever. I see benefits, and I’d obviously consider how any such policy was put in place or written before supporting someone but if in our hypothetical situation it matched an ideal for me, I’d support it, that’s all.

I’m kind of bored now.
Off to class!

ragingloli's avatar

most countries have a national ID card since ages.

Judi's avatar

@knitfroggy ; My problem is not with the ID, it’s with the chip.
@manoffaith3112;
I used to have a hot tub on a timer. We had dead frogs all the time yuck!

ubersiren's avatar

I don’t support giant wastes of tax dollars… we’ve gotten along this long without them, I don’t think it’s necessary. It’s wasteful, it’s Big Brother, it’s the principle of it. What the bloody hell do we need it for? It’s a ridiculous notion.

knitfroggy's avatar

@Judi dually noted I would microchip my kids like a dog if that were available-I would feel safer if my kids had a little gps thing implanted in their butt cheek. I bet child abduction would go down if you could find your kids at anytime. Plus it’d be nice when they are teenagers and out running around. I know a lot of people think it’s terrible, but I don’t.They could get it removed when they are 18 if they wanted. ( I realize this isn’t really what the discussion is about, but since we are talking about microchips and what not I thought I’d throw that in there)

Judi's avatar

But a micro chip in an id that you are required to carry at all times? (as a free adult citizen?)

knitfroggy's avatar

What are they gonna know with this microchip? I just don’t care if there is a microchip in an ID that I have to carry. If the government knows I went to the store and bought groceries and then put gas in my car what does it really matter? Does it mean that someday they are gonna come round up all the good looking people and put us in a concentration camp or something? I guess I’m not smart enough to understand the danger or I don’t fear the government enough? I dunno…

Judi's avatar

@knitfroggy ; they will have the ability to track your movement.

Blondesjon's avatar

When you give a government access to your personal life you are setting up the groundwork for them to begin micromanaging your life. They’ve already begun to try and regulate what we EAT! Quit all of this semantic, I gotta be right arguing and WAKE THE FUCK UP!

asmonet's avatar

I still haven’t seen an argument that I can’t shoot down with, you’re not that interesting – the odds are no one will ever track your movements. The manpower involved in monitoring every citizen faithfully would be ridiculous. It’s just not feasible, sure they could track you. But why would they unless you give them reason to do so?

It’s not practical and I doubt anyone would have the funding to spend it on anything other than emergency situations and suspected illegal activities. Even logging our movements for checking later should the need arise would create a ridiculous amount of data that simply would not be kept. It’s all too labor intensive to give a crap what everyone is doing.

There are other reasons I’d support it too, even if they did log our movements. It’d be far easier to see who was in that mask holding people at gunpoint robbing a store, breaking into your home, killing others, whatever. Or even as simple as keeping our roads safe. Keeping seniors safe, those with mental health issues, anything. Sorry, I see more crime and pain being prevented than being caused by the government.

And as to what we eat…do you enjoy carcinogens in your food? Because I sure as hell don’t.

Judi's avatar

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

published in a 1955 book by Milton Mayer, They Thought They Were Free:
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
Then they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out for me.

These quotes drive me to fight for civil liberties, even though I doubt they would effect me personally.

asmonet's avatar

That’s all well and good, but quite frankly I don’t see this as ‘evil’, I see it as good.

Judi's avatar

Would you want to put this information in the hands of someone like Chenney?

asmonet's avatar

If the program were created, and I disagreed with the policies and the direction it went in, you can bet I’d fight it, hell I’d cut the thing out of my arm or ass cheek myself if I had to. Point is, if it’s regulated and transparency or as much as is possible is maintained… I don’t see it as evil.

asmonet's avatar

Personally, it wouldn’t affect my day to day life, let him watch me take my dog for a walk. On a national level, no I would not.

Like I said, if it went in a direction I did not agree with I would take whatever action I felt was appropriate. But before that turning point, if it ever occurred I would support such a program. I think a happy medium would be for it to be on a volunteer basis.

Blondesjon's avatar

Peter Gibbons: Doesn’t it bother you that you have to get up in the morning and you have to put on a bunch of pieces of flair?

Joanna: Yeah, but I’m not about to go in and start taking money from the register.

Peter Gibbons: Well, maybe you should. You know, the Nazis had pieces of flair that they made the Jews wear.

Judi's avatar

@asmonet ; What if you didn’t know that it had hit the turning point? A scenario you can relate to: Someone works for the government and they are fascinated by you. (Maybe they saw your pic on fluther when you had it up.) They want to know where you are. They track your every move. You never even know you’re being stalked but this person who wants to get you uses the information to gather your interests to better ingratiate himself to you. You never even knew why he liked the same things you do, the same music, the same movies,.... but he is seems to know you so well…....

asmonet's avatar

Hate to say it, but I can do that with the internet almost as easily and almost as thoroughly. That might be creepy, but hell, he might be in DC, I might be in Wyoming. And it isn’t like people don’t compulsively Google each other, ask about them from friends, try to find out where some hot guy works or what shift he’s on, where he hangs out or lives. We just use different methods with slightly varied results.

And I would think, one would need a rather high level of clearance to be working with that system. And there would be checks in place to discourage that behavior. I’m not saying it might not happen, there is no such thing as a perfect system. But again, it’s just ridiculous to think you could be the target.

When the DC Sniper was out and some of my friends wouldn’t come home from college from break, wouldn’t leave their houses and only went to gas stations that had put up tarps to obstruct the view from neighboring lots I went about my business – and I was in his hunting ground. I live within 20 minutes of a handful of the sites he targeted. Because statistically, I was not likely to be hit, I did not consider it a threat. It was a danger, one I should be aware of but also one that was not immediate.

I wasn’t going out of my way to find him or anything ridiculous like that, I was living my life. Just as I wouldn’t go out of my way to be noticed by robbing someone, I’d be going to the store, buying stuff and going home. Anyone who lives a ‘normal’ life has almost nothing to fear.

SquirrelEStuff's avatar

@asmonet
How are you gonna go pick up weed without big brother knowing?

@judi
I love the Milton Mayer quote. =)

asmonet's avatar

Who says I still smoke? Or that it could be differentiated from me seeing a friend?

It’s not a camera, it’s at best a dot on a screen.

asmonet's avatar

And in case you were unaware, usually…they’ll pass up a chick with a joint for the dealer she’s meeting, and use them to go another step up the ladder. Once again, most people are in no way a priority.

Blondesjon's avatar

“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.” -Benjamin Franklin

Ivan's avatar

Get your tinfoil hats everyone.

asmonet's avatar

I’m giving up what freedom exactly? The freedom from being observed? Like people don’t do that everyday, my cell phone can track me, my purchases can track me, my license plate, my license, my SSN, my passport, surveillance cameras, traffic light cameras…

You all don’t seem to get that it’s really not that big of a jump.
And other countries have already put national ID’s into place without much trouble. Hell France and Greece have had them since the 40s. Even the UK is trying to bring them around and has started with foreign residents.

As long as it doesn’t follow china’s lead it isn’t nearly as horrifying as people seem to think it is. The fear and paranoia are depressing. This country has issues.

kenmc's avatar

@Ivan Patronizing is rude, Mr. Strawman.

Ivan's avatar

How was that a strawman??

kenmc's avatar

(My understanding may be a bit off)

You made it out that everyone that is against a RFID chip is a tin foil hat wearer.

Ivan's avatar

That’s just a plain generalization or maybe an ad hominem. A straw man is when you mis-characterize someone’s argument to make it easier to refute. If I would have said, “You guys are all crazy, the government isn’t going to fly around in hover crafts, anally probing everyone with ferrets! How could you ever believe that?,” that would have been a straw man.

Blondesjon's avatar

“A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves” -Bertrand de Jouvenel

asmonet's avatar

You could try using your own words to argue your point, just a thought. :)

Blondesjon's avatar

Their thoughts are mine. They just said it first. -Blondesjon

Judi's avatar

@asmonet ; Why reinvent the wheel when others have made the argument so eloquently?

asmonet's avatar

Eh, I’ve always felt quoting others and leaving your argument there to be a rather cheap approach. If you’re going to quote someone at least add to it. Respond to others, whatever. Don’t just throw up quotes. It’s like cheating.

Blondesjon's avatar

“Big egos are big shields for lots of empty space.” -Diana Black

asmonet's avatar

Whatever, man. :)

manoffaith3112's avatar

I do not mind other’s opinion on this. Sometimes it can be like brain storming to read other’s ideas even if they are not the same as mine.

Its likely that to try and change a required action like this from a law made by the Federal Government will be very hard to do once its in place. The Federal Government is so powerful they can make a person be chipped if the person wants to travel by air, by land, to receive social security, unemployment payments, to get their income tax money back, and a lot more. As a people we’re so connected and reliant on our government to those who would not want to be chipped they will be in dire straits. I think we should be allowed to be free, and not have to show papers or chip to be able to go some where. I don’t want every one to be suspected of being a criminal when most people aren’t.

It is so true a lot of our privacy is non-existent in our present day. However, to be forced to have a chip or forced to have ID papers is not right. If it had been decided on by voting by the American public that would be a lot different. But here is something that most people hardly know any thing about. This is not starting out transparant, but instead in almost in secrecy. In fact someone doubted that this has even happened on this blog, and expressed it twice they thought it was not a valid question. No wonder. Its been a big secret for the American public really.

There could be benefits to this I agree. I’m not against those benefits. To be able to help people who are lost or kids who are kidnapped would be alright. But why not have it open for the individual to choose to buy for his or her’s own family’s use? Nothing wrong with that.

But to give up even more rights we have now, and be forced to prove we’ve done this thing to be able to use a bank account, walk into a Federal building, travel by plane or train is a bit much and is only the beginning. More and more pressure could easily be brought to bear, and its simply doesn’t seem right to have to show stuff just to be allowed to do these things. The government is supposed to serve us not the other way around. It was of the people, for the people, and by the people.

It could easily be the first step toward ruining the title of a “free country” for America. Its none of the Federal Government’s business what I’m doing day to day. But with this they’ll be able to bring their big guns to bear on certain people of race, faith, economic status, or etc that they don’t like.

To me it seems pretty naive to believe that the government really has our best interests at heart in this. Look up Ruby Ridge, and the awful thing that ended with David Kerish’s cult, and other examples prove the government has no patience for those whom they are against and will not accept. So far when government doesn’t seriously like a certain kind of life style or group the government is ready to eliminate it with any means possible. Including deadly violence

They haven’t always played fair, and have been abusive with those they disagree with. I don’t want to carry papers or have a chip just because the Federal Government says so. It is an unfair law, and is taking away my freedom and the rights I have now.

fireside's avatar

@manoffaith3112 – Do you have a driver’s license? Social security card?

Nobody’s talked about forced implantation yet. So far it seems people are getting worked up over something that doesn’t have much legitimate chance of being implemented on a mandatory basis in our lifetimes.

Another question, how many people are against this because they see it as a biblical prophecy being fulfilled?

manoffaith3112's avatar

Perhaps it won’t happen if our representatives will change it. Or perhaps if our new president gets involved. You could be right.
If it isn’t changed some how….right now it is a law that has been extended to happen by the year 2011. Its something that will cost Americans a projected 4 to 10 billon dollars! Just wonderful.
Even if it would bother someone because of their spiritual beliefs from the bible should they be forced to show papers any time the government wants them to? Especially if they feel its being warned not to do it from the most precious part of their faith….the Holy Bible.

fireside's avatar

Do you have a driver’s license? Social Security card? Passport?

I would hope that Obama would find a way to shut this down given the fact that we have no money and the public outcry at any such mandatory system. Most likely, it was signed because of some lobbyist money. I would like to see that exploit in the political system fixed.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@asmonet I still haven’t seen an argument that I can’t shoot down with

And how did you shoot down the persecution argument exactly??

RedPowerLady's avatar

@SeventhSense
And as @RedPowerLady said,
The government literally stole Native children from their parents and put them into full time boarding schools. This was about forced assimilation.
And this is what people need to understand. If this can happen to Native Americans, this can happen to any Americans.

Thank you. It was nice to read is all :)

RedPowerLady's avatar

@fireside

Nobody’s talked about forced implantation yet. So far it seems people are getting worked up over something that doesn’t have much legitimate chance of being implemented on a mandatory basis in our lifetimes.

I don’t think it’s so much about getting worked up about something that hasn’t happened yet as much as it is a nice heated debate about the idea of it happening, lol.

I don’t think it’ll happen either by the way. I don’t see the public allowing it to happen or to last long if it does happen.

ubersiren's avatar

Oh, the public will let it happen. The public doesn’t care what the government does as long as we are still able to eat ourselves into obesity and nobody is being physically harmed. Unless there is a food shortage or people are being driven to concentration camps, the conception is that all is well. We’re quite comfortable living our Truman Show. If we’re given everything, but have no real freedoms, we are mere pawns. But nobody seems to care. Oh, except those wacky Ron Paul maniacs!

Judi's avatar

@ubersiren ; Ron Paul maniacs, Ultra conservative right wing Christians and Civil Libertarians

fireside's avatar

I think there are plenty of people who care.
There’s just a line you need to draw between getting worked up over every possible intrigue and what is realistically likely to happen.

I you think that Americans will be lining up for their mandatory butt implant, go ahead and think that, uber. Seems a bit silly ot me.

Judi's avatar

But if the chip is in the id that you carry around like a drivers license you are still being tracked.

fireside's avatar

RFID barely works yet for inventory purposes in businesses.

There is no conceivable way that the US government would have the resources to monitor every mundane person’s movements. They can’t even keep up with the surveillance they are doing to prevent terrorist attacks.

This sounds as hysterical as the right-wingers who say that the government is going to ban all guns. Do you think that suddenly the government will turn anti-Christian and use the chip to hunt down all believers?

I agree that there are privacy concerns as we move into the digital age, but if the government wants to know what you are doing, they can pull up all sorts of information already. The only way to avoid this is to get rid of your computer, cell phone, credit cards and all property or bills in your name; pay cash for everything; live in the hills away from the plethora of surveillance cameras they can access footage from in almost every city and town; and get plastic surgery so that if you do get picked up on a cameras they can’t use facial recognition software to spot you; don’t forget to stop using phones since they all travel through a network that can track your voice or any mention of your name.

Blondesjon's avatar

@firesidewhen are you going to get to the bad part?

fireside's avatar

@Blondesjon – lol, i think since joining fluther I’m sure I have done enough strange keyword searches that I must be on a list somewhere.

fireside's avatar

Oops, forgot to mention the GPS in your car.
: P

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