Is the british pronunciation of "th" now officially the same as for the letter "f"?

England has a variety of accents, and the people on BGT don’t represent the entire country. I don’t understand your point.

Wtth, mate?

If you speak with a proper upper class accent you have no need to attempt to make your future rosy by participating on a variety show. Thus, BGT represents the underclass who speak with a multitude of colorful accents, including many who replace one sound with another (or leave it off altogether as in the case of the letter h).

@Darwin Am on’t compu’er.

well, first i wasn’t aware that britain was still a class based culture. are you saying that the education system instructs these different classes differently when it comes to pronunciation?

Those who attend Eaton still speak differently than those who go to the local council school, and yes, Britain still has traces of a class-based culture.

well in the states there are a number of different accents, but having an accent is not the same as mispronunciation so drastic that the sound of letters are interchanged or lost entirely. anyway, a shame about the state of your schools, ours are in a mess as well.

I am not British but I have been to Britain, and it isn’t so much instruction at school on how to speak, it is what one learns at one’s mother’s knee.

However, if I may point out a well-known American example of drastic mispronunciation, George W. Bush comes to mind.

@archer The “g” at the end of sentences is often lost at the end of American words. “Writin’” instead of “writing.” Also vowels often change based on accent. There was another thread earlier today where someone prounounced “fool” the same as “full.” Letters are often added based on accent, too. I know a lot of people who say “warsh” instead of “wash.”

It isn’t based on class so much as region, but the accents truly do have significant differences.

let’s leave it at this… languages evolve sweetness… english has germanic roots, french has latin roots… they were probably thought of as butchered tongues at the time, seems to have worked out well for everyone.. stop bitching about everything christ…

the bush example is one of a particular word, which is a different case. it is amazing how many mispronounce nuclear, and the interesting thing is that many don’t realize it and are quite surprised when it’s brought to their attention. another point of interest is that these folks seem to, almost invariably by my experience, also similarly mispronounce realtor as realator.

the examples supacase gave are valid. i was just surprised at how pervasive the mispronunciation of the th was—virtually everyone was pronouncing it as an f.

i have been to england too, but it’s been several years. either i just didn’t notice at the time, or this is something relatively new.

i just noticed jeffgoldblum’s comment. dude, that’s hilarious! much respect.

Sometimes its just the dialect. Look right here in the U.S. How many times do you hear the words: wreath, earth, teeth or birthday pronounced: wreaf, earf, teef or birfday? That’s just laziness. I hear it quite often from people I work with and I have given up trying to correct them. Though I must say, it really floors me when they seem to think I’m the one pronouncing the words incorrectly.

It’s upbringing. Unfortunately parents, teachers etc don’t put any effort into teaching children correct pronounciations. As the generations pass, it slides
further downhill. Although I don’t know the stats on this, I’d say around 90% of the population speak incorrectly innit! Laziness I think is the major culprit. Before long only the upper class will speak the queens English and England will have to be renamed engleverything!

Someone just got themselves branded as a troll in my head.

Also, do they group contestants on that show by area? Have auditions in specific locations? I’m not very familiar with the format, only a few minutes here and there. Could it be that you caught a show full of Southern accents and blew it out of proportion?

No, we embrace the natural change in languages as you do also.

i doubt that’s the case, asmonet, as i only saw some of the semi-finals and the final, which i would assume had contestants from multiple regions.

“natural change” in language can be a good thing when it results in improvement, but the way we are going seems to be in a direction reverting to grunts and gestures.

@Bobbydavid
“correct pronounciations”? Language constantly changes, look used to be pronounced luke and the same goes for a large majority of the words we use how can you say yours is right?

“what you learn at your mother’s knee” has been, and should still be, overcome by education. some of the most well spoken children that you will find in the u.s. are the children of asian and indian parents who speak heavily accented english if they speak it at all.

when nothing is correct or incorrect then there isn’t much to discuss, myndecho

some things benefit all when commonly respected, such as language and stop signs

I didn’t say mine was right. I said there is or was a set standard. The rule was to speak English! Yes times change and it’s very regional. Are you saying there is no right and wrong then? Surely levels must be set as is the way with everything

@Bobbydavid
Here’s watch this

I would say tough you don’t have to like these changes but the changes are good.

that’s pretty funny, myndecho, because what you have there is a person expert at using language able to express the fun he has observing those who would have great difficulty expressing the thoughts he’s expressing due to their inability. slang is great fun but it relies on a standard to rebel against and dismantle. without that relatively fixed and respected standard all the fun goes out of it and simple ignorance sets in.

change in language can be good and is inevitable, but i think we have an obligation to resist changes that diminish it

@archer
I would agree with that people should understand language, as I have already said there is not correct pronunciation.

correct pronunciation is essential to understanding. it’s the great equalizer.

@archer
Learning pronunciations isn’t high on my agenda, I wouldn’t have a problem if the schools started teaching it, though they shouldn’t force us to use the same pronunciations

i shouldn’t have said it is essential, but it is an enormous facilitator and aid to understanding.

when a poor child can speak and write as well as a rich one, disparity in advantage is hugely diminished

i don’t see why you would view it as force

to me it should be viewed as mathematics. 3+3=6. and t+h has a known sum as well. (ok, a couple, actually)

@archer
If that was true the whole English language should change.

change in what way?

@archer
Because words don’t work like that. We have silent letters, ph=f some time c=s sometimes
th should sound like t then h not what we would know th to sound like and many others

yes, but as you have just demonstrated, you know and understand those cases. they were successfully taught to you, as they have been to millions. i still don’t see the need to change the “whole language”, as you say.

anyway, this is all fascinating stuff but it’s approaching 2a here in cali, and i’m about fried. good night and thank you for the conversation

Myndecho, why so dismissive of what I said? I didn’t say change was bad nor did I say my way was the right way!
Kind of pointless conversing with someone so positively sure of their own opinion

can’t resist a quicky before i go—those “sure of their opinion” provide the best conversation. it’s those unwilling or uninterested in learning they were mistaken that are a waste of time. good night.

@Bobbydavid
“Surely levels must be set as is the way with everything”
Have fun with that, I don’t expect many people to follow it.

You obviously have no ambition then if you think levels mustn’t be set. Children are brought up to learn and reach goals/levels. A fundamental part of this is to learn to speak correctly unless the parent (are you one) doesn’t really care. You’re pretty rude and arrogant I feel so this will be my last word.

@Bobbydavid
I have said language need to change, not to stay still.

Everything needs to change I agree totally. The question was about f and th and I gave my opinion that’s all. I still believe standards should be set though for our children. Regionally, children, adults will, of course speak accordingly. I love fluther, things so easily get taken out of context and writing on a phone only with limited patience, my point always gets confused. Anyway, it’s sunny and my body needs to absorb those cancer rays!

@Myndecho
Same here :)

my view is that there isn’t a set ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ though i am very supportive of standardization purely for the practically of it.

this is probably a lost cause though, especially if you look at history and watch how English itself evolved from other, older languages. so it seems inevitable that any language will continue to evolve over time to fit the needs of it’s speakers.

Since you’re not from England, might I suggest you shut the hell up about how they choose to pronounce their language?

And might I also suggest that everyone else, do the same because nothing is being gained from this discussion?

Who was that directed at?

@asmonet
English is used in multiple countries around the world not just England, just because it originated from England doesn’t give people from England a higher say in what should happen with the English language, you have let the name get to you.

I however have agreed with what the English language has always been doing and still is, changing.

Can you speak welsh? Truthfully?

@Bobbydavid
Yes and for your second question yes.

We’ve been using language for about 40 000 years now. We have evidence that language has been changing for as long as it has been written down. It seems reasonable to assume that it was changing before that point too. If language was going to decay into grunts and gestures, surely it would have done so by now?

The use of /f/ for “th” is a feature of some dialects, the same way some North Americans pronounce “cot” and “caught” the same, and some don’t. It happened in Russian – in Russian “Theodor” is “Fëdor”.

you seem to have missed that my reference to grunts and gestures was an exaggeration descriptive of direction, not actual destination.

as language inevitably changes we should have a say and influence in what changes are embraced as improvements and enhancements and which are rejected as unworthy and representing mere lazy surrender to the lowest common denominator.

Whenever someone says that English is moving in the direction of grunts, or going downhill in some way, I ask for evidence. The change from “th” to “f” isn’t evidence, it’s a normal sound change that’s no different from, say, the changes that happened to words like “sight” and “site”, which are homophonous today but were pronounced differently in the 1300s.

Sure, we all have opinions about what changes we like and what we don’t like. You’re free to not like this change and you’re free to try and stop it, but most attempts to regulate language don’t work. Which is just as well, since we’re not all going to agree about which changes are “bad” and which are “good”.

@archer: No, we shouldn’t have an active say. That’s ridiculous. Not everyone develops the same, speaks the same of thinks the same. We as a larger group can influence and change language, but not with intent.

@asmonet i can’t believe the silliness of your response. what’s an english teacher to do in that case, be instructed by the students?

@archer I can’t believe the silliness of your initial issue with the natural development of spoken language. There’s absolutely no reason to try and stop it, languages evolve to become more efficient or to root out unneeded aspects. Tell me, when’s the last phonetic or written change in language that made that dialect more difficult to speak or write? You like you’re ‘th’ then by all means, keep it, but it’s absurd to have a problem with how someone else speaks.

i understood when asking the questions that anarchists are opposed to standards

Do you live under a bridge? :)
I love it when they do this.

@asmonet if i’m not wrong, i’m fairly certain the current english we use was brought about consciously (they did decide to make London english the standard afterall), with full intent to increase efficiency of communication.

so really, its not that ridiculous.

@jackfright I really don’t think so. It’s true that standard English pronunciation was originally based on educated London speech, but “consciously… with full intent to increase efficiency of communication” – I’ve never heard that before and I’d think it would be hard to demonstrate.

@Supacase my favorite test is the Ohio River valley test, as a suspected northeast-mid-westerner to say “What color is the collar of the caller?” All three C words will be identical in pronunciation.

@morphail i’ll post the link if i can ever find it, but from memory, the article stated that language had become a problem in england. people of the different classes and regions had difficulty communicating with one another (esp. pronounced between the aristocracy and general populace). this had a horrible effect on trade, and it was a conscious decision that was made when printing came about. (too expensive to print papers for different regions, etc.)

Well, I do know that when a helpful man from Manchester attempted to give me directions to Piccadilly Circus, I couldn’t understand a word he said. An equally helpful gentleman from Scotland was able to translate for me. It would seem to me that there is still a strong regional difference in language in Britain.

@jackfright: Yeah, didn’t happen like that.

Have you ever tried to get millions of people to go along with what you want? It’s not exactly cohesive.

And who is this “they” you reference? Care to back up your point, specifically?

Americans mispronounce plenty of words. Any time there is a double T (i.e., butter, matter, etc) we pronounce the T’s like D’s. So there are plenty of examples of Americans flagrantly mispronouncing words by substituting letters (just like F for Th).

archer you are an idiot. Haven’t you ever heard of a dialect? They arent butchering the language by pronouncing a word differently. That is what they heard growing up their whole life so that is why they pronounce the words differently. No dialect is better than the other they are just different and that is what makes languages beautiful. Quit bitching and being xenophobic and accept others differences.

Did you ever wonder why there can be so many dialects in one city, such as London? Until relatively recently (1800’s or early 1900’s) the average resident rarely traveled more than a couple miles from one’s birthplace. Due to isolation, the language evolved phonetically, rather than by spelling.