A question for non Christians.

Some Christians are nice, have they ever read the bible?

I don’t have all the time in the world to write, do I? sheesh

Ask the witches at Salem.

Watch the Benny Hinn show and when you stop gagging you will have all your answers.

BTW, what makes you think that anyone will spend money on a book that is critical of them? Why not try to sell feminists Playboy subscriptions – it would probably be easier and more financially rewarding.

Opposing gay marriage, opposing evolution, fighting to get their displays everywhere, acting like they are the persecuted minority, stating that they don’t need to take care of the world because of the Rapture, stating that they are the right ones, assuming they are correct and everyone else is wrong, supporting conservatives, supporting capital and corporal punishment, opposing abortion- I could go on and on!

@crisw
The bible is against gay marriage isn’t it?
It may not be nice but it is Christan.

Those who try to bar people (the LGBT community, specifically) from equal rights, or even the right to life.

Telling me I am going to go to hell.

Saying every other religion is wrong.

Pro-death penalty stances.

Those who continue to proselytize even when I ask them to stop.

I’ll just stop there.

Simply the viewpoint that doing something a different way is strange and unnatural. This happens all the time with “dominant” religions, cultures, and races. My Brownie troop was all-vegetarian and mostly Hindu, which confounded the Christians. However, instead of either keeping things to themselves or open-mindedly asking why, they “told” us we were doing things wrong or made fun.

Otherwise, it is simply insisting they are right and everyone else is wrong. It is much better to lead by example rather than exhortation.

see, @crisw alawys does it so much better than me
I just get angry

I was raised Christian; but rejected organized religion as an adult. One day, as I was chatting with a “Born Again” co-worker, she was telling me of a woman she dealt with in another capacity, and she said… “She really is a very kind and generous person; it’s a shame that she’s Jewish, since she won’t go to heaven.” It’s one thing to have faith in your chosen religious policies and procedures, but to be so closed-minded that your way is the only way seemed outright arrogant. She was very self-righteous in may other ways, too.

I also have observed a lot of hypocrisy among so-called Christians, that put on a good face on Sunday mornings, but act very selfishly the rest of the time. It’s as if they think by just saying that they believe that Jesus was the Messiah they get a free pass… they don’t seem to think that they are supposed to follow his example and teachings of selflessness and patience, etc. They think that if they pray for forgiveness or go to confession, that their slate will be washed clean, and then they can go back to doing the same things.

@Myndecho

Judi didn’t ask about what the Bible said, but about annoying things Christians do.

@crisw
Then what is being Christan based on?
I was focusing on what she said about “That’s not very Christian of them!?”

Even if you believe in the Rapture, it is your responsibility to care for this planet while you are on it.
Don’t preach it, live it.
Don’t hate, love.

In essence, follow Judi’s example!

Being very money-oriented.
Being abominable shepherds of non-human life on the planet.
Using Christianity to justify wars and violence.
Abuse of Islamic and Jewish people, or general forsaking of non-Christians.
Not being love-oriented.
Expressing condescending pity for people who aren’t part of their church.
Just about everything on Christian TV.
Historically: Crusades. Inquisitions.

Sad part is, all that has been said above and that will probably be said below. Is not Christians showing a good example. Just people with a God complex, hiding behind their Bible. I should know, I work with them every day.

My older brother (this was in the 80s) went with a friend to a youth group every Wednesday. One day he came home and was acting very strange and quite. Our dad asked what was wrong and he explained that they forced him and all the other “non-converted” kids to watch a video. The video was essentially a montage of violent footage including people killing themselves, footage of children holding their dead parents and it even went as far to show dead babies in a grave. They showed the video to the “non-converted” kids and went on to explain that this was just bad things on earth and that if they died right now they would be in hell where that type of violence against them would be guaranteed.

My brother was 10 years old and attending their services with his friend weekly. My father (who is Atheist) went to the head of the youth group and forced him to destroy the video. My brother who attended church regularly up until the age of 10 decided that day that it was better to be Atheist like our father, had they not shown him that video he might actually still be going to church.

I find nothing a Christian believes in or says offensive, so long as A) they’ve done their homework (read the bible, read some history) and B) express their opinions respectively and with tact. this applies to most everything, ‘natch

I am only offended when a supposed Christian attempts to tell me how to live or express their opinion of God, Jesus, etc. yet has no idea what their talking about.

@drClaw If a video like that had been shown to my kids I would have made him eat the video. First.

My dad is father first and a marine second, his marine side came out that day. That’s all I will say about that on this forum.

At a Depeche Mode concert, my friend’s wife was projectile vomited on by the woman sitting behind her who was completely stupid drunk. The second thing out of her drunken mouth was “I’m not like that. I’m a good Christian”.

@Judi, are you looking for specific instances involving people we know, rather than generalizations about attitudes and acts that have been perpetrated in the name of Christianity?

That might be a great idea, and I can certainly think of some folks at whom I’d like to shake a copy of your book. There are two hitches there, though:

—You’d have to know that the person considered himself a Christian—and what kind. The term has a broad general meaning that is just a category of religious practice, one of the big divisions of world religions, taking in all faiths based in a belief in Jesus as the son of God. It also refers specifically to those of the born-again persuasion. Some people are private about their faith, and they might even be among the best examples of good Christians, so Christianity doesn’t get credit for them. Some of the loudmouths are also the ones you don’t want as ambassadors.

—You’d have to know enough about the beliefs and practices of those folks to know they were violating them. “That’s not very Christian of them” presumes some knowledge.

There is also the fact that what is really Christian of them in this sense may be the very same moral and ethical standards that other faiths uphold.

I’d also want to be careful to distinguish between acts that are ordinary human foibles, failings, and shortcomings, on the one hand, and outright hypocrisy and falsity to one’s professed convictions, on the other.

If I were to offer you a suggestion, it would be that you pick some one small category of behavior—say, fibbing, which can be a very, very tricky topic—and write an article about it for the Christian magazine circuit. I hear from fellow writers’ club members that although they don’t pay a lot, you can sell the same story to many magazines, and it adds up. That is material and a credential to start from with your book.

Having grown up among Christians of the specific sort, I do know when self-avowed Christians are acting in a way to give Christians a bad name. One young fellow where my son worked talked about it a lot—and also treated his fellow believers well, while showing arrogant disdain toward others and even going out of his way to cause trouble for them.

@DarkScribe, I want to sandwich your responses in the middle of the book. I will prep them before I let them know how you reaaly feel. I am actually disguising it as a weight loss book. It is going in a chapter on forgiving yourself. Before you can forgive yourself you need to understand what you’ve done.

Skip the chapter, because no Christian is perfect so bringing up ways that Christians didn’t act in a Christian manner in one circumstance is like telling about a time that your dog pooped on the lawn. No big surprise, it happens. Christianity is striving to live your best, not being perfect.

@Jeruba ; I am concerned here about reaching those who make it clear to everyone they meet that they are a Christian. I think that there is a significant Christian community who really has no idea of the impact of their actions and the appearance of hypocrisy they give off.

Christianity was supposed to be a tolerant and loving religion open to all people and accepting of non Christians. I’d like to see Christians uphold this by not bothering me with lectures of fear and guilt or the need to be “re born” so they can feel they’ve successfully attempted to love me and care for me in their Christian way.

1. Judging others is a big turn off.
2. The infighting between each Christian group such as Baptist
hating Catholics, Catholics hating Methodists and so on.
3. Quoting from the bible to back up anything and everything.
4. No sound proof on why they actual believe.
5. Relying on faith seems like a cop out.
6. I’m better than you attitude.
7. If you don’t agree with us you will go to hell.
8. Hypocrisy
9. Zero Tolerance for other Religions
10. Condemning of atheist.

I was recently discussing politics with a friend.

He was telling me how he’d rather watch innocent people die than lower his standard of living. He claims to be Christian.

@boots Holy crap that’s cold.

My biggest complaint about believers:
Those who can not discuss religion or their beliefs without quoting the bible. And, when they do quote the bible they cherry pick just the parts that validate their viewpoint. If one is going to place that much importance on the book, they ought to abide by all the teachings of it…. Not just the parts that are convienent for them.
There…..I finally got that off my chest! Thanks for asking this question!

@Judi, if I’m understanding you, then that in itself is what’s abrasive and offputting. There’s a presumption behind it that says “I’m better than you” (without even bothering to find out if the other person is a brother or sister in the faith!). The very act of making such a profession asserts a significance that others do not attach to it except perhaps in a negative way.

I would not want to listen to someone constantly assert “I’m a LIbertarian” or “I’m a native-born American” or “I’m a history major,” either. I once knew a woman who managed to work her dress size (size 2) into every conversation. Why the constant need to set oneself apart with labels?

I had a coworker who would say things like this: “I’m a Christian, and so I don’t believe in speaking ill of others.” “I’m a Christian, and so I won’t lie to you about that.” This says, “There is a classification of people that is called ‘Christian.’ People in this classification possess this virtue. I am in this classification, and so I possess this virtue.” Logically it does not actually say that others do not possess it, but the implication is there. This is just like my friend who would say things like “I am an Artist, and so I know what colors I can wear together. I am an Artist, and so I can be creative with how I arrange my house.” (“Uh, sorry, Susie, cretin here. I must not be able to dress decently or arrange my furniture because I’m not an Artist. Why would you even want to hang out with me?”)

I’d still say try an article first. My guess is that your target audience will not recognize themselves. “God, I thank thee that I am not as other men are.”

Telling me I killed Christ.

I am perturbed by how some Christians try to conform the words of Christ to fit what they already believe and not the other way round. I didn’t see what was so different about my aunt post-conversion than pre-, for example. She contorted the Bible to fit her pre-existing modes of thinking, and in her opinion, everyone else was going to hell except for her and her little church. :/

@skfinkel Telling me I killed Christ

That was you!

Nice spear.

Judging non-Christians.
Assuming that Christianity is the only “right” religion and shoving it down people’s throats.
Mixing religion with politics.
Mixing religion with academics.
Using Christianity to justify greed, war, hate, bigotry.

You, Miss Judi, are what I consider to be a great Christian example. Thanks for being such an awesome lady!

@aprilsimnel GA!

Also, people who can quote (and misquote) the Bible to suit their needs, but really have no idea what the words mean. It’s just passages memorized without any real thought.

And then there is my SIL, who tells me she will do something for me, never does it, and then when asked about it says that God told her I needed to do it myself. You know, if you don’t want to do it, don’t offer in the first place. And if you forget to do it or run out of time, just apologize!

Much of the behavior that people find annoying does, I think, actually have sound scriptural basis. I wouldn’t ever accuse someone who is proselytizing, or who believes that Christianity is the only way, or that non-Christians are condemned, etc. of not being very Christian. I think Jesus’ contemporary disciples would have seen their roles as “fishers of men”, out to save as many souls as they could. And, as annoying as it can be, I appreciate the compassion behind it. I think that some of the tactics are horribly counter-productive, but the impulse behind them is still a sound Christian one.

But what gets my red flags up is when I see hate, selfishness or money enter the picture. I don’t see any possible way of reconciling hatred in any of its forms, valuing oneself more than others, or clinging to material wealth with Jesus’ teaching. Advocating killing in any way seems unthinkable from a Christian perspective. Why a Christian would embrace the gun culture, I simply can’t understand. Why a Christian would rather see tax money go to the military than to the poor, I don’t know. If I hear a “Christian” spouting hate-tinged speech, then I can’t help but think that they really don’t get their own message.

@Darwin That is just weird.

@essieness – It seems to be an accepted practice among her group of friends from church. And it is really beyond weird. It is thoughtless, especially for someone in her forties.

crisw: No, the Bible does not forbid gay marriage. Please quote the passage (pref. KJV) where you think it does.

essieness: They don’t “assume” ‘that Christianity is the only right religion’—they know that it is. as many sages have said (often attributed to Mark Twain, Will Rogers, or Josh Billings) “It ain’t what you don’t know that hurts you worst, it’s what you know that ain’t so.”

@LexWordsmith When you say “they know that it is” the only right religion, do you mean “know” as in they have a strong faith or “know” as in you actually believe that too? Just have to know…

@LexWordsmith No, the Bible does not forbid gay marriage

No, but it does forbid gay sex. Not much point being married and celibate.

Denying that people have used Christianity to harm other cultures. I think it is time we accept and recognize the past so that we can move forward. But my conversations and feeling always come to a halt when people do not recognize the harm that has been done in the name of Christianity. It is not the religion itself, just how some followers chose to use it.

Telling people that they will go to Hell etc.. for not being part of their religion. My cousin went to a booth at the local fair. She was just a child, about 12. She filled out this religious questionnaire and they told her she was going to Hell. She cried right there so hard. She spent at least half an hour (at the fair) trying to figure out how she could go to heaven, crying the entire time. I think respect for all belief systems furthers the cause more than degrading non-believers.

Now, I do have an “opposite” story. Two young boys were riding around on their bikes, in their suits, in the middle of the summer. It was obvious they were religious young men trying to fulfill their public service duty. So when they came up to us I listened respectfully to them as they introduced themselves. I then promptly told them that we were not interested in converting to another religion. They very very respectfully explained that they were not trying to preach to us or to convert us. They were just there to pass on the ‘love of God’. They then asked us if we wanted help working in our garden. (we were working in the garden at the time). We asked them if they were serious, I mean they were in suits, and they said they were. We declined only because we didn’t want to ask those boys to help in our garden while they were in their suits. They then left us their “card” and told us to give them a call if we ever needed help with anything. It really changed my mind about the people who go door to door or the people who do public service in the name of their religion. I had one idea of what they were “trying” to do and they blew that idea out of the water.

this question is tiring to think about.
i live in the bible belt. come down here for a while and it won’t take long to figure it out.

The worst things that Christians do don’t make me think “that’s not very christian of them”. That makes me think “typical”.

It’s when they actually volunteer or give to actual useful charities (not churches, not anti-gay groups, not anti-abortion groups, not crazy right-wing political nuts) or when I see a big rainbow flag on a church that says “Come As You Are” that I think “wow, that’s not very christian of them”. I think they’re a group that’s getting it in at least this one way and “not very christian”. That’s a change for the better. Then I think that person may be a good person in spite of all the hate in the bible.

Thank you all so much. This is the honest feedback I was looking for.

I rarely meet christians, so I have very little personal experience of them as they are quite rare in my country. Maybe not a contribution, but spontaneously, these are some things that I personally feel that are contradictory to the christian message:

• Killing abortion doctors
• Saint and Madonna worship
• Relic worship
• Supporting war in the name of God
• Supporting animosity against other religions

@oratio Where do you live?

@essieness Sweden

Most assume that only through a personal belief in Jesus you can go to heaven. Thus, Muslims, Hindus, et al, (plus me) are all going to hell. And they are always puzzled when I ask them that in essence, they are condemning 80 % of the world, which seems to be quite judgemental, and thus quite un-Christian-like. And if you go back many years, in the deep south bible belt, their treatment of black people was simply repugnant. I am not sure how they reconciled their beliefs with that schtick.

@dannyc I read that it was a common belief that being black was the Curse and Mark of Kain, amongst other things, justifying slavery.

@oratio . Doesn’t surprise me. I can’t help but think of guys like Martin Luther King as incredibly brave men, who had to battle the Bible, with the Bible in a way. Against insurmountable odds they achieved equality, now that is what I call a man who changed the world. Of course so well sung about these prejudices and their hypocrisy by Neil Young, in Southern Man, on of my all-time classic favorites. Mean guitar solo too.

LOL @ this thread.

@NaturalMineralWater: Care to elaborate?

@cprevite It would be of no use here.

One thing that gets me is when the youth leader encourages them to make signs with the Bible verse against Gays to picket on the corner, and they violate other verses in that same chapter by wearing clothes that are made of mixed fibers. The sign wavers haven’t even read their own lessons.

It’s funny, really. A lot of the claims people make about bad Christians are the same things one can say about bad Atheists… Perhaps, and I may be wrong, it’s not what you believe, but rather, how you believe it, that’s most vital.

DarkScribe—please cite chapter and verse (pref.in KJV) forbidding sex act between two people of same gender but not forbidding it between two people of different gender, all other things being equal.

oratio—Saints (and Madonna, as chief Saint) are not worshipped. only God is divine; only God is worshipped. Saints are revered, venerated, used as role models.

@LexWordsmith Not by you maybe. Take a trip to for ex. Sicily. If you use icons and direct prayers to something, if there is a cult around it, it is a worship. One of several reasons why Christianity is not truly a monotheistic religion. I am sure you don’t practice that, but many do.

oratio—then not Christianity (in my view). Christians (imv) are followers of the teachings of the Jesus Christ described in the Nicene Creed (or possibly the Westminster Confession of Faith)—and hence not (among other things) adoptionists (such as Jehovah’s Witnesses) or polytheists (such as Mormons and saint-worshipers). But using icons and directing prayers (say, for intercession) to a friend of God is still not worship, and “cult” is a very hazy term.

@LexWordsmith DarkScribe—please cite chapter and verse (pref.in KJV) forbidding sex act between two people of same gender

You are kidding? No?

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
(Leviticus 20:13)

There are all manner of prohibitions that apply under specific circumstances regarding sex between men and women, but sex between two men is clearly prohibited. There is no specific verse prohibiting sex between women, but they are prohibited from wearing clothing “that pertaineth to man” or having sex with animals. In Christianity it seems that Lesbians are accepted.

@LexWordsmith Tomato tomahto.

I think denials of certain amounts of history are the worst…“jihad” and terrorists are the worse thing on the planet apparently, but the crusades were what exactly? A day in the park? That frustrates me to no end. I don’t have a problem with Christians just EXTREMISTS in ANY cause/religion/etc.

However, in terms of Christians I don’t like being told i’m going to hell, I come from a religion that doesn’t even believe in hell and I think it’s not very loving or christ-like to tell me that i’m going to hell for not believing what you believe. I don’t tell you that some horrible fate is going to befall you for not believing what I do!

I think that “love thy neighbor” just gets forgotten in SO many different ways, and also that man is created in gods image…thus if your god created me and he created me the way I am why would he be angry about who/how I am? That conundrum really gets me every time.

@adreamofautumn I come from a religion that doesn’t even believe in hell

That sounds a bit better than most. I think that I’ll start a religion that doesn’t believe in cats.

No, wait that’s been done already – the cat is the only common animal not mentioned in the Christian Bible. The Bible does mention Dragons and Unicorns though. Maybe God is allergic to moggies?

@DarkScribe i’m not sure how to take that comment, I can’t tell if I should be on the defensive or not haha. However, I didn’t know cats weren’t in the bible. Learn something new everyday.

Maybe god is jealous of cats because they are worshiped without force, and are much more efficient at commanding respect.

@dannyc not that i’m not agreeing or disagreeing with you but, neil young sang about a lot of things he didn’t know about in regards to the south. i’m not condoning a lot of the south’s actions but he did speak about a lot he didn’t understand. and aside from that, i am a believer in the Van Zandt/Young feud, so i think some of what he said was just taunts.
ALTHOUGH (i do realize this isn’t a thread about the south or neil young, i apoligize), most of us in the south do remember the old days of KKK rallies and whatnot and don’t really think of it as the horrible thing it is. it has always been the way around here. it’s actually something that comes up often and we enjoy telling old stories about. i guess it’s all about what you’re brought up in. the pros to the south are many; we’re very empathetic and spiritual, traits i’ve found to be rare north or west.

Maybe cats weren’t mentioned in the Bible because of their prominence in Egyptian culture.

As to @Judi ‘s original question, the main things that turned me away from Christianity were the disconnect between the teachings and the actions of so many.

I would sit in church and hear about compassion and kindness then sit in the parking lot of the church and hear people honking their horns because they had trouble getting out as quickly as they would have liked.

I also had trouble with the hour a week aspect of the religion. So many people would only go to church on Sundays then quickly forget about the teachings as they left. That is not to say that this is nothing more than a human failure and can be seen in other religions too.

The biggest question I had was why God would stop talking and would only love some people in the world. As a creator and the epitome of love, why would God care less about those who did not understand the Christian teachings.

Then there is the aspect of sectionalism with some Christian not respecting the beliefs of other Christians. If all are in Jesus, then what cause would there be for division simply because there are multiple interpretations of such high level spiritual concepts?

After I had become a Bahá’í, I went back to church with my parents and heard a really moving sermon about Jeremiah and his sadness at not being heard when telling others of his relationship with God. When I went to the priest and asked if he had any notes from the sermon that i could copy since it was so inspiring, he told me I wouldn’t be able to read his notes and then turned to shake someone else’s hand.

That pretty much sealed the deal for me in regards to the religion I had grown out of since it was exactly the opposite experience I had had with all of the Bahá’í gatherings and people I had met through my new religion.

DarkScribe—it’s illogical argumentation to use one command from Leviticus unless you accept them all. do you?

@Clair. Yes, I recall the feud well. Neil and the Van Zandt’s were actually friendly and admired each other’s music. I agree that the song was a bit over dramatic. I meant more of the juxtaposition of the lyrics as it pertains to the question re: counterproductive actions by Christians. I love the American south and am sure those old days are also not well regarded insofar as what happened. Of course, we Canadians cannot be smug. One only has to read what we have done with our Aboriginal peoples, a national disgrace still not solved. I understand your point.

@LexWordsmith DarkScribe—it’s illogical argumentation to use one command from Leviticus unless you accept them all. do you?

I don’t accept any of them, I have no belief in any form of Sky Pixie, Deity, god, however you wish to regard it. I just like poking holes in the logic of people who use the Bible to support something convenient to them while ignoring the rest. I also like to comment on those areas where the Bible makes illogical claims – as in the virgin birth.

Most Christians who take an interest in Biblical times still pick and choose. Look at the number who believe Jesus only spoke Aramaic. If that was so, he would be unable to communicate with the Romans – who strangely enough, spoke Greek. It was the “Lingua Franca”. Christ’s brother wrote in Greek.

Biblical history is fascinating – history is fascinating. The Christian distortions of history are amusing.

DarkScribe—then i guess that my question is whether you believe that Jesus accepted them all, so that followers of Jesus should also do so, including the one you quote against sex between two males.

@LexWordsmith so that followers of Jesus should also do so,

Why? I do what all the religious Christians do and pick and choose what I follow. ;)

I have repeated made it clear I do not believe in anything the Bible says. It is a load of nonsense wrapped in bigotry and seasoned with hatred. There is nothing nice in it. Angry, jealous gods, racial prejudice, bigotry, it is riddled with misogynistic clap-trap, and if anyone really thinks that they can find a loving and caring God in it, they are deluded.

The basic precepts of Christianity and Buddhism are fine, the dogma isn’t.

(I guess that my Karma has run over my Dogma – as sometime happens.)

Are you getting the picture yet?

No—the original question between us was whether the Bible can justifiably be interpreted as forbidding same-sex marriage. So far, you haven’t provided much evidence that it can be, and i’m not even sure why you take the time to write about it, given the lack of significance that Christianity seems to bear in your life.

Are you saying that condemnation of same-sex marriage is one of the “basic precepts of Christianity” and therefore your position?

@LexWordsmith the original question between us was whether the Bible can justifiably be interpreted as forbidding same-sex marriage. So far, you haven’t provided much evidence that it can be,

You are kidding. Again.

This was my last post on the subject.

You are kidding? No?

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
(Leviticus 20:13)

You don’t see that as answering your question? The Bible says no. I don’t say that because I don’t use the bible as a guide to morality or philosophy. I just find it difficult to reconcile people who claim to believe the Bible, but ignore what it says.

Again, you’re omitting the context of the quotation. Nice try, but you’d have done better to actually have let the other be “your last post on the subject,” rather than further display your weak attempts at diversion and use of a strawman.

Hey guys, if you want to ask ”whether the Bible can justifiably be interpreted as forbidding same-sex marriage” Then start a new question!

@Judi Hey guys, if you want to ask ”whether the Bible can justifiably be interpreted as forbidding same-sex marriage” Then start a new question!

I have answered it twice, if his attention span is too short to grasp it by now, then not much point in continuing.

Who do you think that his alter ego is – before he socked up? The style seems similar to two others.

Judi—yeah, sorry, i didn’t mean to hijack the Q. I’ll stop.

DarkScribe—It appears to me that it’s easier for you to make a personal attack on me than to actually deal with my responses. So i agree—no point in continuing.