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DarkScribe's avatar

Are most professed Christians really closet agnostics?

Asked by DarkScribe (15450points) July 9th, 2009

I really doubt the faith claimed by most Christians, they say they believe but their day to day actions are not devout at all. I really feel that they are not true believers, but people who afraid not to believe – just in case there is a God. Their pretense to faith is an insurance policy.

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87 Answers

Ivan's avatar

Since this question relies on the definition of the word ‘agnostic,’ perhaps you should define exactly what you mean by the term.

DarkScribe's avatar

@Ivan perhaps you should define exactly what you mean by the term.

Perhaps I’ll allow any good dictionary to do that for me.

To simplify, in case you don’t have access to a dictionary, an agnostic is one who doubts, an atheist is one who is sure that there is no God.

Ivan's avatar

In case you’re just going to be a patronizing jerk today, those definitions are actually quite false.

The_Compassionate_Heretic's avatar

[Mod Says] Let’s chill folks.

DarkScribe's avatar

@Ivan In case you’re just going to be a patronizing jerk today, those definitions are actually quite false.

Take it up with your choice of Dictionary publisher.

The question is quite genuine, people who profess faith, but don’t follow it have fascinated me for decades.

troym333's avatar

lol

agnostic-a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.

Ivan's avatar

Websters:

Agnostic: “A person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable”

Atheism: “A disbelief in the existence of deity”

DarkScribe's avatar

@Ivan “A person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable”

Good – we agree. Do you have an answer to the question?

troym333's avatar

i would say yes, in some way, when presented with scientific evidence. Christians undergo a lost of faith

Ivan's avatar

@DarkScribe

An agnostic is someone who claims that the existence of God is either unknown or unknowable. This includes the vast majority of all people on Earth, including most Christians and probably all atheists. An atheist is someone who simply lacks a belief in a god or disbelieves in particular gods. An agnostic is not someone who simply doubts, and an atheist is not someone who is sure that there is no God.

So my answer to the question is this: Yes, most professed Christians are agnostics. As is most everyone else.

troym333's avatar

why not be a closet agnostic, one can still be seen as a true believer and still go to heaven

troym333's avatar

who came up with the idea of calling it heaven?

i’m even more agnostic than before

DarkScribe's avatar

@Ivan Yes, most professed Christians are agnostics. As is most everyone else.

Which is what I believe, but then you run up against “you must have faith – God is real” everywhere you go in a Christian world. Although you have to exclude atheists – by definition they are sure that God is not real. I am an atheist, not an agnostic.

troym333's avatar

we live in a christian society

through science i think more and more people
will become atheist

eponymoushipster's avatar

I believe most Australians claim to be citizens of a separate nation, but in reality they want to be part of the UK. They say they’re an independent country, but their money, cities and customs all show that really they are British. They’re not really independent, they just claim to be, because they’re afraid to go back.

Ivan's avatar

An atheist is not sure that God doesn’t exist by definition. Perhaps there are atheists that are sure that God doesn’t exist, but that is not the criteria for atheism. The only criteria for atheism is a lack of belief in a god. If you’re someone who doesn’t think about God or just doesn’t know, or if you’re someone who for some reason has never been introduced to the concept of God, you are an atheist by definition. Nothing about atheism requires certainty.

DarkScribe's avatar

@eponymoushipster
I believe most Australians claim to be citizens of a separate nation, but in reality they want to be part of the UK.

That might have been true a few decades back, but most Aussies are sick of British association – though not of British heritage. The republicans are gaining strength – it won’t be long now. The next referendum should see it through if the polls over the past decade or so are accurate. I have no problem with being a part of the British Commonwealth by the way. (I was educated in the UK .)

DarkScribe's avatar

@Ivan . Perhaps there are atheists that are sure that God doesn’t exist, but that is not the criteria for atheism. The only criteria for atheism is a lack of belief in a god.

No, that is not so, otherwise there would be no difference between an atheist and an agnostic. An atheist denies or refused to believe in the existance of a God. A thin line but a definite one.

BBSDTfamily's avatar

No not “most” Christians, although there surely may be some like that. Some people go through the motions without really feeling a change in their lives and maybe not believing at all. Definitely not most of them, and your criteria for coming to this conclusion isn’t exactly logical b/c of what you’re talking about. Thinking that someone is a closet agnostic just because their actions aren’t always devout would be like thinking that someone is an alcoholic because they have a social drink. Being a Christian doesn’t have anything to do with being perfect.

Ivan's avatar

@DarkScribe

Atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. Agnosticism deals with knowledge, and atheism deals with belief. Agnosticism is the lack of knowledge, and atheism is the lack of belief. Most, if not all atheists are agnostics. There is definitely a difference, however.

DarkScribe's avatar

@BBSDTfamily _Thinking that someone is a closet agnostic just because their actions aren’t always devout _

There is no “always” involved in my question. I am talking about the huge number of Christian pretenders who allow every part of their everyday lives to flout the faith, but put on a devout hat on Sundays.

eponymoushipster's avatar

@DarkScribe no, they obviously don’t feel this way. Maybe they put airs on that they do outside, but really, inside, they want to be British. Obviously, no one could really feel like they want to be Australian.

I mean, that would be equivalent to being ignorant and stupid, right? Being Australian is just foolish, in light of the fact that the British are so much better. It’s a fact.

DarkScribe's avatar

@Ivan and atheism is the lack of belief.

No, in my case and those of most of my atheist friends, it is an absolute certainly, a strong and sure belief, that the concept of a deity of any flavour is ludicrous. It is not any form of doubt.

Two of my closest friends are Catholic Priests, and they are more agnostic than devout. They call it a “crisis in faith”.

The_Compassionate_Heretic's avatar

From what I know of Christianity, the Apostle’s Creed basically says you’ll be granted entrance into heaven under a set of given circumstances, one of which being having faith in the holy trinity. Using that as a premise, devout Christians are highly unlikely to be agnostic.

Also, how did become about Australia and Britain?

DarkScribe's avatar

@eponymoushipster Being Australian is just foolish, in light of the fact that the British are so much better. It’s a fact.

Um, yeah, sure (which way is the door – I can’t see – there isn’t much light in here…)

BBSDTfamily's avatar

@DarkScribe There are definitely many of them that put on the hat for Sunday. But to answer the question you posted, no I don’t think most professed Christians are really closet agnostics. But some of them are. There are also a huge number of people who try to do things by the Book. Know that all Christians are also sinners, so judging their daily actions isn’t the best way to know what they truly believe. Faith is a large part of it, not just actions.

I guess we’d really have to take a very large survey to know for sure which way the majority swing.

DarkScribe's avatar

@BBSDTfamily I guess we’d really have to take a very large survey to know for sure which way the majority swing.

I would love to see the results of such a survey, but how many would answer honestly – I mean if there was a God he would know what they said. Right?

Ivan's avatar

@DarkScribe

“it is an absolute certainly, a strong and sure belief, that the concept of a deity of any flavour is ludicrous.”

I don’t deny this, but you’re not understanding what I’m saying. Some atheists may in fact be certain that no gods exist, but that is not a requirement for being an atheist. An atheist might also believe in unicorns or bigfoot. But just because an atheist happens to believe in those things, that doesn’t mean that the definition of atheism is the belief in unicorns and bigfoot.

eponymoushipster's avatar

@DarkScribe your ridiculous argument is the exact same thing.

you’re making a statement based on an assumed fact. if you think that, then go do what you want. it’s your life. but don’t assault what other people believe in or how they act. you obviously are a very pessimistic and contrary individual, and no doubt view the actions of others through your own dim filter.

BBSDTfamily's avatar

@DarkScribe Right. And to Christians, that’s what matters.

troym333's avatar

i know all christians do not believe that Moses or whoever parted the red sea,
that is almost incapable of being believable

Some old man with a good imagination came up with that

DarkScribe's avatar

@eponymoushipster and no doubt view the actions of others through your own dim filter.

I like my dim filter, it is an old friend, familiar and comforting. Sort of like a polarising filter on a camera – it lets you see what is really there, not just reflections of something else.

BBSDTfamily's avatar

@troym333 Are you saying “not all Christians” or “all Christians do not” (which is what you said)? Because if you meant it the way you typed it, you are incorrect.

BBSDTfamily's avatar

@DarkScribe Everyone thinks they see what is really there.

DarkScribe's avatar

@BBSDTfamily Are you saying “not all Christians” or “all Christians do not” (which is what you said)? Because if you meant it the way you typed it, you are incorrect.

?????

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BBSDTfamily's avatar

@DarkScribe Just what I said- is he saying that some Christians do not believe it, or that all Christians do not believe it

troym333's avatar

all Christians do not believe it

BBSDTfamily's avatar

@troym333 Well I see you’re assuming that you know the minds of all Christians then…. I wouldn’t be so certain if I were you. I’m a Christian that believes it, so you’re wrong.

eponymoushipster's avatar

[non-mod says:] the mod will say something about personal attacks. but, per the logic of this thread, what i said that was modded was “fact”.

troym333's avatar

can someone please explain the parting for me and how the hell god did it and whether its a bunch of bs written by an old man

tinyfaery's avatar

The real question here is when did @The Compassionate Heretic become a mod? Crazy.

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Likeradar's avatar

@troym333 “why not be a closet agnostic, one can still be seen as a true believer and still go to heaven”
Just for clarification, do you mean in your belief it only matters how a person is viewed by others, and not what they actually believe in their hearts?

BBSDTfamily's avatar

@troym333 You need to start a new question with that one.

The_Compassionate_Heretic's avatar

[Mod Says] That’s quite enough.
Let’s stay on discussion and refrain from insults please.

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eponymoushipster's avatar

@The_Compassionate_Heretic no, that’s fact. I can claim to know all because i’m smarter than everyone and can know what everyone is thinking. didn’t you know? it’s obvious that everyone who doesn’t agree with me is wrong and i know they’re wrong, because i can see the truth. gosh, it’s so obvious, isn’t it?~

troym333's avatar

who wrote the bible any way

eponymoushipster's avatar

@troym333 that’s what google is for. find a troll hut while you’re there.

DarkScribe's avatar

@troym333 who wrote the bible any way

It wasn’t written as a Bible, it was compiled and translated.

troym333's avatar

eponymoushipster are you like a true believer because you may be an agnostic,
you can be such a being that you’ll all the words and events of the scripture

Facade's avatar

I don’t know about most (and neither do any of you), but I’m not agnostic at all.

Ivan's avatar

@Facade

So you claim to know whether God exists with absolute certainty?

eponymoushipster's avatar

@troym333 i know those words, but not in that order.

eponymoushipster's avatar

@Ivan how do i know you exist? i’ve never seen you, either. for all i know, you’re a shetland pony at a computer.

Ivan's avatar

@eponymoushipster

Precisely. So you’re an agnostic with respect to the existence of Ivan.

DominicX's avatar

@Ivan

Are “believe” and “know” the same thing?

eponymoushipster's avatar

Faith is the “assured expectation of things hoped for.”

Ivan's avatar

@DominicX

Nope. Hence the difference between agnosticism and atheism. In practice, agnosticism deals with the claim of knowledge. That is, if you claim to know that God exists/doesn’t exist, then you aren’t an agnostic.

troym333's avatar

people are easily fooled, they believed that jesus was capable of walking on water lol

wait a minute the bible is sometimes tranlated differently, perhaps he walked on water but in the form of ice!!!

BBSDTfamily's avatar

@Ivan I can’t answer for @Facade but if she does claim to know w/ absolute certainty, she is not the only one in this discussion. And certainly not the only one in the world. EDIT: Yes, there are Christians who believe in God with absolute certainty.

Ivan's avatar

@BBSDTfamily

I was with you until that last statement. You either are using some exclusive definition of “Christianity,” misinterpreting the beliefs of others, or not fully understanding what the phrase “absolute certainty” means.

BBSDTfamily's avatar

@Ivan Yeah I thought about that after I pressed “Answer!”

Let me rephrase and say that there are Christians who believe that they know with absolute certainty.

Thanks for keeping me in line :)

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

From the details portion of your question, what is considered a “true believer”?

Have you noticed this phenomenon with other religions besides Christianity?

Have you noticed the reverse with Atheists, in the sense that some might actually believe in a supreme being, but fear that acknowledging one would cause them to forfeit particular freedoms?

BBSDTfamily's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies For your third question, I think it’s true that some atheists just don’t want to limit their freedoms and that is their reason for refusing to even think about believing.

El_Cadejo's avatar

Pascals Wager

Thammuz's avatar

Just in case nobody has yet pointed this out there are 4 combinations of theism/atheism and agnosticism/gnosticism:
Gnostic Theist (claims to know god exists, much like that dipshit Ray Comfort)

Gnostic Atheist (nobody i personally know, someone who claims to know NO GOD exists)

Agnostic Theist (doesn’t claim to know but still believes)

Agnostic Athesit (Doesn’t claim to know and refuses all the god claims presented so far)

NaturalMineralWater's avatar

“I really doubt the faith claimed by most Christians, they say they believe but their day to day actions are not devout at all. I really feel that they are not true believers, but people who afraid not to believe just in case there is a God. Their pretense to faith is an insurance policy.”

Christians are still human. Believing in God doesn’t mean you become perfect. It is up to God to decide who is a real believer and who isn’t. Anyone else’s opinion on that matter is completely irrelevant. “Man looketh on the outward appearance (case in point), but God looks on the heart”

That said, I believe there are quite a few hypocritical people of all belief systems… including atheism.

DarkScribe's avatar

@NaturalMineralWater That said, I believe there are quite a few hypocritical people of all belief systems… including atheism.
We have been down this road before – atheism is not a belief in something, it is refusal to believe in something. I don’t hold anything that could be defined as an atheist belief, but my absolute certainty that there is no God makes me an atheist.

I have no “substitute” or alternative belief, just no belief in a deity or the likelihood of one.

It is no different to me not believing that the moon is made of cheese, or little girls of sugar and spice. In no way can you construe from that what I actually believe the moon or little girls are made from or whether I ever give the subject a moment’s thought.

whitenoise's avatar

Interesting discussion. I have not met a Christian yet that knows for sure God exists. In line with the definitions in this thread, that in essence makes them agnostic. The Christian I know, however don’t need that knowledge to accept the existence of God as true. They definitely do not feel to b agnostic.

Many of them, however, I feel, are loosing faith in the churches and official religious doctrines. There seem to be more and personalized exegeses of the bible. Many Christians, I know, don’t even believe the bible to be 100% true and take it as a historical allegory.

Personally, I feel rather mistreated on this thread by the ones claiming that atheists are agnostics. In pure essence one may say that the non-existence of God cannot be proven and hence all sensible atheists need to be agnostic. That would however disrespect the option of atheists having looked at all the evidence and knowing that it is utterly unlikely that a deity exists.

In my mind I am not agnostic, but an atheist. I have looked at all evidence and deemed it so unlikely that there is a deity that it comes close to knowing. I used to think of myself as agnostic, until I realized that such statement would imply a level of doubt that I just don’t experience.

The flip side of the coin is that in my opinion a Christian cannot believe and know at the same time that the existence of God is 100% true. If you know you don’t believe, you simply know. Believing is accepting something to be true. Some Christians I know even say that having to believe without the option of knowing is the purest test of their believe.

Saturated_Brain's avatar

@whitenoise I agree with whitenoise (lurve for you darling). So let me just add a bit more to that.

@DominicX already asked a very perceptive question. Is ‘belief’ the same as ‘knowing’? Well, as we all know, this isn’t the case. Belief and knowledge are two separate, though interlinked, things.
Belief has to do more with emotions.
Knowledge, in the conventional sense, has to do more with the head (such as logic and reason).
Religion, to the common man on the streets, isn’t exactly a very logical thing. There are many things within religion which seem to defy logic and reason. Thomas Aquinas wrote something which logically proves God’s existence (don’t ask me to quote and reference, because I haven’t read it. All I know is that this resource exists [as to whether I believe that it’s true, well… Just like I said, I haven’t read it, hence no comment]), but for the sake of argument here, let us all assume that we haven’t read it.

Whenever people say that they’ve had an experience with God, they don’t tell you that they’ve logically processed it out. Why? Because they felt it so strongly and believe in it so much. It’s an emotional reaction to an event. It’s possible to always logically explain things (eg, oh you survived because of that lucky snowbank), but to believers, that doesn’t detract from the experience itself.

Miracles don’t stop being miracles just because you can explain them.

Likewise, I can claim to know something, but I don’t necessarily believe in it. Like I know that Obama exists. It doesn’t mean that I have to believe in him.

Religion wouldn’t be religion without the emotional religious experiences. It’d be dead. As someone once told me, “you can logically explain religion all you want, but at some point, you can’t logically explain it anymore. You’ll have to take that leap of faith in order to complete the whole thing”. I believe that that’s true.

I myself can’t know for sure whether God exists. I’m quite certain that most, if not all, of us will be very hard-put to prove or disprove God’s existence. But I believe that he exists. Why? Because I can feel him in my life. My knowledge is derived from many things, and emotion is large part of it. But to say that I concretely know that God exists… Heh.. Well.. That’s more complicated..

But this doesn’t really mean anything, because God is very real in my life. I believe that God exists, because I’ve seen him working in my life. Paradoxical as this may seem, there are times when I may not know that he exists and is working in my life, but I always feel it. I always realise it when reflecting on events in my life.

Perhaps another issue here is the way the word ‘know’ is so loaded with many connotations. Honestly speaking, I can say to myself right now that I know that God exists, but if I were challenged straight, I would probably slip into ‘believe’. Why? Maybe it’s just because I don’t like provoking. Maybe it’s just because I don’t want to get into religious discussions.

But you can’t just call us agnostics just because we say that we don’t know as compared to believe. I feel that that’s a misunderstanding of how things really work.

To answer @DarkScribe‘s original query, this may seem a bit counter-intuitive, but it’s flawed to judge Christians based on their day-to-day actions. We’re all flawed in some way. We’ll all fail. Sure, I try to live up to what a Christian is supposed to be, but I’ll always fail. Why? Because what doctrine asks for is virtually impossible for humans to do. I mean, always love? Even your enemies? Offer the other cheek when you’re struck? Don’t commit adultery (but know that as long as you even look at another lustfully you’re committing adultery)? Who in their right mind would be able do this?

It’s up to us to live up to what a Christian is supposed to be to the best of our abilities. And if many fail, then that’s just sad. And disappointing. But it’s human…

So now, I’m sorry if what you’ve seen has made you doubt Christians. We know we’re supposed to try. But maybe we just don’t believe enough.

But I’m trying…

Grisaille's avatar

To answer the question – yes and no. I’m under the assumption that a large number are “secretly” Agnostic. Most? Probably not.

I’m kinda just posting here to pick up later. Nighty night time for me.

Saturated_Brain's avatar

As for the Thomas Aquinas thingy thingy… Here it is. I’m not sure that it’s the whole thing (he wrote a lot) but if not then it’s at least some of it. But I ain’t gonna read it, not least because I have another essay due soon

Jack79's avatar

What you are describing is actually paganistic atheists with superstitious tendencies. Christians keep up traditions such as singing Christmas carols or getting married in a church, and some even wear crosses around their necks, but in reality they don’t believe in God anymore than atheists do (agnostics are people who simply don’t know for sure). I’ve met many Christians like that, who simply don’t think about the existance of God in everyday life.
Even though I consider myself an out-of-the-closet agnostic (ie I don’t know for sure if God exists or not), I still believe there is probably some divine power out there, and pray to Him/Her/It just in case on an almost daily basis. I also try to be good, regardless of what any Bible may say, because I simply think that being good makes sense and makes living with others easier.

DarkScribe's avatar

@Jack79 I also try to be good, regardless of what any Bible may say, because I simply think that being good makes sense and makes living with others easier.

That I agree with – trying to be good just because it is the right thing to do – not because it guarantees a pass through the Pearly Gates.

Saturated_Brain's avatar

Having faith vs being good are two different things.

I now see that I’ve been kinda skirting around the issue at hand…

I believe in God for various reasons:
– I’ve been brought up a Christian, and see the world through the eyes of a Christian. Call me naive and young, but to me, to not have God in my life is kinda impossible, because I strongly believe that he exists. It would be like trying to deny the existence of the world.

- And so what if I do it because I don’t want to go to hell? I believe because I want to be saved. And I’ve found out that being ‘Christian’ is its own reward.

I’m not going to go saying that if you don’t believe you’re going to hell. That’s just judgmental and stupid.

(Anyways, I hope that my answers have at least somewhat answered this question)

ubersiren's avatar

I sure was. I could never put my full faith in something that I didn’t understand, and that contradicted itself and the world around it. I know that’s part of faith itself, but it just didn’t make sense to me. I ultimately abandoned it. I remain agnostic.

Judi's avatar

I wish I would have seen this question sooner, because I must admit, I’m to lazy right now to read all the posts, (or maybe I don’t want my answer tarnished by it.)
When I was young I might have fallen into the category @DarkScribe posted in his question. When I was a teenager I had a prodigal experience. My choices had left me pretty destitude.
I had a very drastic change, and although it was good for me personally, in retrospect, I probably appeared like some of the people that embarrass me as a Christian sometimes now. In my excitement about my new found faith and real relationship with Jesus, I’m sure I was obnoxious and offended a lot of people.
As I have matured, I realize that what I do and say is a reflection of my faith and I try (sometimes successfully and sometimes I fail) to be careful to be respectful of those who don’t share my faith. The conviction of my faith is no less deep or real to me. Actually it is even deeper. I no longer feel the “need” to convert people, because I trust that it is not my job. God will change hearts, not me. The only thing I am asked to do is be available. Sometimes I chicken out, and sometimes (maybe by talking here) I get a bit pushy.
If a Christian says he never doubts, he is not being honest though. Even in Mark 9:24 a man who was asking Jesus to heal his son said, “Lord I believe, Heal my unbelief!” That has been the battle cry of many a weary Christian for 2000+ years.

ubersiren's avatar

@Judi always has a good answer on this subject.

cwilbur's avatar

I’m surprised this question wasn’t modded as flamebait.

I’m tempted to ask the inverse question: are most professed atheists and agnostics really sure in their hearts that God exists, and just so damned vocal in their denial and argumentative out of fear?

But I’d expect that to be modded as flamebait too.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@cwilbur

I too am consistently surprised at what gets modded and what does not. Alas, the mods are only human (from what I hear), and subject to the mood of the moment like the rest of us.

I’m sure, as they say, there is no secret agenda or favoritism at hand.

mattbrowne's avatar

I responded to Ivan’s question in a similar way:

Agnosticism and theism are not mutually exclusive. Likewise agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive.

The issue revolves around whether dogmas are present or not and whether ‘absolute truth’ is understood in a scientific sense or not.

This is my understanding of agnosticism: A belief about the existence of a god is not present. If you cannot make a claim of absolute certainty about the existence of god (either way), you can be a non-dogmatic theist, a non-dogmatic atheist or an agnostic. Someone who deeply believes in a god but still concedes that they cannot know for certain is a non-dogmatic theist or an agnostic. Someone who claims that the existence of a god is by its very nature unknowable from a scientific point of view is a non-dogmatic theist, a non-dogmatic atheist or an agnostic. An atheist who believes in no gods yet concedes that it cannot be known for certain whether one exists is a non-dogmatic atheist an agnostic.

Like non-dogmatic Christians, non-dogmatic atheists are very open minded. I sometimes take issue with atheists who create dogmas like the non-existence of God is a certain thing, or the only real Christians (devout true believers) are the ones who believe in magic and who take the whole bible as one huge dogma, letter by letter. I still like some of those atheists as well, but debates can become tedious at time and it’s important to know when it’s time to quit.

When it comes to day to day actions, the question is not how often someone prays, but whether someone walks the talk. How do professed Christians treat other people? What about open-mindedness, integrity, kindness, self control, fairness, hope, temperance, social intelligence, forgiveness, mercy, humility and gratitude? Prayer can help reminding oneself about these virtues. Do some Christians just pretend? What is their choice of words when debating with others in online forums like Fluther? How do they treat other Flutherites and their opinions and beliefs?

mrmijunte's avatar

I believe that most christians believe in God because more than likely is tradition. But I personally believe that when you have an honest conversation and question if there is a God, they all doubt, they might get uncomfortable because that´s not what mommy or daddy told them. Personally I stopped believing when I was told that Santa Claus was not real. But the world would be a better place if everybody at one point of life stopped and asked themselves “why do I believe in God?” If they really think very hard the honest ones will claim they are agnostic. Sorry for my english

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