Social Question

reijinni's avatar

Can you live beyond the need for religion?

Asked by reijinni (6953points) September 6th, 2009

Do you find a way for you to live your life without thinking about your religion or referring to it to make your next decision?

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78 Answers

jazzjeppe's avatar

Oh yes, I am doing it all the time. I don’t have a religion, I trust and believe in myself. That’s more than enough :)

The_Compassionate_Heretic's avatar

I don’t think of organized religion as a “need”.

LuckyGuy's avatar

Yes. I am responsible for my own actions.

Facade's avatar

God guides me. Without Him I’d be lost.

Jeruba's avatar

Absolutely. Since about 1964.

laureth's avatar

Yep. It’s like not using my third hand to hold things – since I don’t have a third hand.

However, living religion-free is a relatively new idea in the history of H. sapiens. It’s still not for everyone.

jazzjeppe's avatar

When I was about 19 y/o I was “saved by Jesus”. It last for three years and during these years I did believe, just like @Facade (no offence, hon) that God guided me. I was even going for being an evangelist and a preacher! When I look back at those days, I feel ashamed and I think about them as a dark period of my life. I actually thought that others, God, people or whatever, “controlled” my life. I never believed in that, it was against everything my inner…inner soul believed in. And so one day I decided that God is of no importance to me and I couldn’t be bothered bothering about his existence either. If there’s a god, so be it, I don’t like him anyway…. kinda. That day was the best day of my life :)

jebaugh's avatar

Your question presupposes that there is a need for religion. I would say that there is no inherent need for religion and were it not for societal indoctrination all children would grow up to see religion as insignificantly as we all see the Greek and Roman gods of our ancestors.

Blondesjon's avatar

Yes I can!

now if I could only find a way to live beyond a need for beer. . .

jaketheripper's avatar

I can’ t make any decisions without (consciously or otherwise) consulting my priorities which come from my Christian worldview. I think the only way to be intellectually honest and answer yes to this question is to be an atheist. I think it would be dumb to ignore deeply held beliefs with far reaching implications when making a decision.

kibaxcheza's avatar

When i die, im plant food. When something happens its through actions of someone else. If i wanted imaginary friends…. Id make my own

Darbio16's avatar

Without religion, humans would not have made it this far. It must have been very hard being a neolithic human searching endlessly for food. Not having an understanding on anything scientifically. Not that science has all the answers. We would have all killed ourselves long ago because life offers no explanation. You just fucking do it. day in and day out. Look at yourself from a million miles away and tell me how important you are to the fabric of the universe. Even on earth, individual humans account for no more than a grain of sand in a vast desert. Everyone wants to feel important. We want recognition. We want to be treated with respect and expect an element of justice and equality on earth. What better way to enforce the laws of man than the advent of the creator of man. An invisible deity that promises either eternally damnation or prosperity based upon your worldly actions. Except for Christianity. Most Christians need only say one prayer and they believe that they are forever saved as a result and no further wrongdoing will take away that “saved” status.

Religion has its good points. Humans need to be kept in check or we would all kill ourselves with war and greed. Rather than taking holy books word for word, it would be best to look upon them the way you would Aesop’s fables. As more of a guide to being a ‘good’ person rather than a stiff regulatory document enforceable by death. No use in walking the fence either. Most religions cast half believers into hellfire along with the murderers and rapists alike. It’s all or nothing in religion. I’m more of a secular humanitarian. Other than the acceptance of god, there aren’t a lot of differences between ideologies of the secular humanitarian and the mainstream religious. Both have empathy for mankind, both teach morals and honor.

I have many ‘religious’ friends. Religion changes with society. Suppose members of a religious family encountered their ancestors from 1,000 years ago. I can assure you that the elder family would kill the new religious family. Mainly because religions has become soft. What was once blasphemy is now late night commentary. What was once regarded unholy or immoral is now considered choice.

My main gripe of Christianity is this. 2,000 years ago we had Christ. He is now the only way to get to heaven. What of the innumerable people that died before him? I know if I were burning in hell for not following the ten commandments and my offspring had only to say one prayer to guarantee everlasting life I would be pretty fucking pissed. How cold god impose another standard? In my opinion the Christ story was created by the Jews to damn gentiles to hellfire, after all the first commandment says that thou shall not have any other gods before me. By imposing a new way to get to heaven, followers of the new faith were doomed. Christ appeared in no other historical document other than the bible, even though numerous historians were around the region during and after his ‘death’.

Americas was founded on many of the teachings of the bible. like i said, I’m not going to argue that religions has a binding effect on man to make him obey. But the obedience to whom? God? The church? No one really knows, as religions changes over time but God stay the same. Thomas Jefferson said this.

“Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.”

He was not much of a ‘believer’ but he did somewhat agree with the teachings of the bible. He is right though. Do you follow religion based on reason…or blindfolded fear?

deni's avatar

At one point, our ancestors needed a god to explain how things got here, maybe, like @Darbio16 said, but now we have proof, and fossils, and evidence, and we KNOW how we got here, and we know how long ago, and details, and so on.

I don’t see a need for religion nowaday. All it does is keep people sheltered from living for themselves mostly, and in a lot of cases causes a LOT of hatred and war. Thumbs down.

SeventhSense's avatar

A greater meaning than survival is the basis of humanity itself. It doesn’t have to be called religion but aside from survival life is pointless without an understanding of our nature as an indivisible interconnected web beyond the “material”.

Supacase's avatar

I rarely, if ever, consult religion in my decisions. Common sense and my own code of ethics guide me. Were my morals shaped by some of my earlier experiences with religion? Maybe. Probably. But I believe I have an innate sense of right and wrong that would have been with me regardless.

avvooooooo's avatar

Absolutely.

wundayatta's avatar

In my mind one of the great challenges of humanity is to move beyond the need for religion. If we can live without pretending to know what we don’t know, I think we’ll do a much better job of learning what we need to know. Of greatest importance to me, right now, is learning how to generate global scale cooperation amongst humans. Pretending we have an answer to this does us a great disservice, for it keeps us from really working at it.

AstroChuck's avatar

Well, I’ll try and let you know if I can.

AstroChuck's avatar

Yup. No problem.

YARNLADY's avatar

I have no such need, so I guess the answer is yes.

FireMadeFlesh's avatar

Its not a problem for me. For the most part, religion is a non-entity in my decision making processes.

SeventhSense's avatar

@daloon
What people like daloon, Yarnlady and astrochuck fail to take into account is the fact that religion serves a purpose of providing a code for society as well. The ideals of forgiveness, love compassion and the like sprang from religious thought and ideal as well as the concept of a Higher Power. Without such codes man is a victim of his own passions and excesses which lead to dis ease, disorder, chaos and hedonism. Without the recognition of an overriding principle of the universe and a benevolent intelligence there exists only a vacuum of man’s selfishness and ignorance. A type of black hole of consciousness where man ascribes himself the role of god and the end result is Fascism or “Communism”. The first order of the day in a Fascist or “Communist” regime is the elimination of religion. Religion represents an authority that would vie with the state obviously, but also provides an insulation from the most base aspects of man overstepping their bounds. Until there is an alternative to goodness, kindness, compassion, self control, gentleness and love then there can be no real humanity without religion. The world is cold, clinical and devoid of true life without man’s selfless sacrifice for love. This can not be self motivated but must be without pretense and devoid of self at all. This can only be accomplished by a reliance upon something outside of one’s self. Regardless of whether one’s opinion is that that is real or imagined. As Einstein has said, that (imagination) is more important than intelligence anyway.

NaturalMineralWater's avatar

@laureth Living religion free has been a staple of mankind since its conception for many.

@all
I have tried both paths. The “narrow” and the “wide”. With not even a shred of doubt, the narrow is the better path.

I have found this statement in the bible:
“Wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:” to be true. It is far easier to lean upon your own understanding than to accept that there is a higher power. So many decisions that I’ve made in my life of my own volition with no consultation to “my religion” have led me to the destruction I should have expected.

It is a sad state of affairs that humanity sees itself as enlightened for excusing a higher power as less than tangible. It is so very tangible to me and the other true believers out there. It is not a crutch. It is not a fantasy. It is not mankind’s invention. One day (one way or another) I believe we will all know this to be true.

In my adventurous, happy, sad, tearful, desperate, hopeful, ecstatic, despondent, squalid, sinful life the only true joy I have ever known has come from God.

So in response to the question: “Do you find a way for you to live your life without thinking about your religion or referring to it to make your next decision?” Finding a way without religion is the easy part. Having the discipline and wisdom to follow God is the hard part.. and ultimately the better part.

hungryhungryhortence's avatar

So far, so good. I’ve been living without since childhood.

JLeslie's avatar

Yes. Never really thought about my religion until I dated someone outside of my religion when I was in my teens. Still never rely on my religion for any answers or guidance, just appreciate the history and some of the ethnic similarities I have with people from my religion.

YARNLADY's avatar

@SeventhSense It is very narrow minded to believe that the “virtues” that religion teaches cannot be taught as an ethical code of behavior for all mankind. If you choose to define “religion” as a model of behavior for us to follow, without all the mumbo jumbo involving a “Higher Power” or a “Creator” or some such mythos, than I could agree with you.

Dictionary definitiion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

SeventhSense's avatar

@YARNLADY
Without a higher power (even conceptual) people are prone to be subjects to earthly powers and will be manipulated. An ideally benevolent overseer is part of our subconscious nature. Remove it and it is filled with this. or this

avvooooooo's avatar

@YARNLADY Years and years ago I made an argument on the high school writing test required at the time that using the complete works of William Shakespeare for a moral code (as well as entertainment) would be all that a society on a desert island would need to function. I got 99th percentile.

@SeventhSense
True, these morals in Shakespeare’s world were based on religion, but they were also based on common sense. Killing people is bad and so on. The Bible, religion and all other religious works impart morals, but morals and other ideas can be imparted without religion. Being a good person, knowing what that is, is not dependent on religion.

Your idea of the origin of forgiveness and love is flawed. These things stem from earliest humanity, not earliest religion.

Facade's avatar

@avvooooooo How do you know where forgiveness and love originated?

JLeslie's avatar

@seventhsense Where it originally came from? There was man before religion, and before a religion of a single deity. You think people can’t figure out it’s better to be good, caring, loving without religious teachings?

SeventhSense's avatar

@avvooooooo
I would argue that earliest humanity and religion were inseparable.

JLeslie's avatar

I think some people learn morality through the teaching of their religion, but other learn it simply from their parents, and experience in life. I just returned a $10 bill to a cashier who gave me too much change at DTW airport and I was raised by atheists and am one. I don’t think God will strike me dead if I don’t do the right thing, I just want to treat others as I would want to be treated, it’s really quite simple in my opinion.

However, I do think for some people religion straightens them out, gives them peace, makes them feel secure, I am fine with all of that, I think it is good. But I get those things from other sources, so why tell me I have to get it from God or it isn’t good enough, I’m more likely to stray—bullshit, and I find it offensive. I don’t mean anyone on this thread is personally offending me or directing their comments at me, I appreciate the discussion, I am just saying the implication again reinforces to me that religious people think I am less moral and less trustworthy, it is absurd to me.

AstroChuck's avatar

@JLeslie pretty much sums up how I feel about things.

avvooooooo's avatar

@SeventhSense That only makes sense if you believe in strict creationism. I think its a load of bunk. These “virtues” are a part of human evolution.

Because I can live beyond religion, I can live without a pretty, simple story of how we came to be.

SeventhSense's avatar

@avvooooooo
Well since our memories are limited I suppose we’ll have to imagine.
I purport that there would be no need for virtue without a code of behavior based on an unseen force-either imagined or real. Left to instinct, man would simply act from his animal nature.

JLeslie's avatar

@SeventhSense And animals are always savage or something? Maybe you should read about geese http://www.bluinc.com/free/geese.htm I mean are you compelled or tempted to mean evil things?

I hear Christians talking about “choosing to do the right thing every day” and I have thought that it something lost in sematics for me, that they really don’t have evil thoughts all of the time and have to CHOOSE to do the right thing, like it is just an expression or line they use. I don’t feel like I choose every day to do the right thing, mostly the hurtful thing doesn’t even occur to me. I guess if a person is the type of person who feels compelled to do the wrong thing, but stays on the straight and narrow because of their faith; well, I for one am happy their religion has provided that for them, but I find it sad in a way.

If it was proven that God did not exist would all of a sudden start hurting others for personal gain?

Bluefreedom's avatar

I already live my life without thinking about religion and referring to it to make decisions so that would be a resounding yes in answer to your question. Short and sweet.

SeventhSense's avatar

It’s all part of the collective subconscious and not even reflected upon. Even atheism and agnosticism are reactive responses to an innate experience.

JLeslie's avatar

@SeventhSense So if it is innate why do you need something external like religion or God?

SeventhSense's avatar

I don’t know why?

JLeslie's avatar

@SeventhSense Beacuse you are saying without a higher power you can become Hitler (is that what Christian’s think, that he became Evil because he was an atheist?) I mean Osama bin Laden seems to strongly believe in the word of God, and I bet the jails in America are filled with Christians, what does religion have to do with it? And, then you are saying that our responses are innate, I’m confused. So is a higher power there to stop us from stopping our innate nature? Is that what you mean?

SeventhSense's avatar

No that is not what I am saying but without strong alternatives a vacuum is created which is happily filled by others who would fill the void such as Pol Pot or Hitler. Strong and sincere meaning governments who run roughshod over the populace in offering divine like solutions to societies ails. Isn’t it more than ironic that the world’s most oppressive regimes have outlawed religious thought most vehemently or religious freedom?

JLeslie's avatar

It is because they become the worshipped one, or they want to be the worshipped one. But think about this…people like me who do not listen and live by something that someone else is telling them is right, with a book of rules to follow that are unchangeable is LESS likely to follow a dictator in my opinion. I don’t think Hitler tried to get rid of religion in his country, or countries under his rule, unless my history is incorrect? Communist leaders in the past have tried to take religion away from its’ citizens.

Sarcasm's avatar

@SeventhSense Isn’t it more than ironic that Hitler stated Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.

SeventhSense's avatar

@Sarcasm
He had a very twisted idea about everything and both denigrated and celebrated ideas depending upon his aim at any given juncture. There was no freedom of expression, thought or action without his consent.

JLeslie's avatar

Dictator is not the same as Communist. Most atheists I know would strongly fight for freedom of religion, not try to force people to be atheists, or outlaw religion. Although, I admit some atheists think the world would be a better place without religion. Forcing atheism is the same as forcing any religion on someone.

I don’t care what religion someone is, I care about their actions.

mattbrowne's avatar

Of course. Why not?

wundayatta's avatar

@SeventhSense The idea that there would be no morality without religion, despite being a very common misconception, show such a lack of knowledge that I have no idea where to begin. Morality is practical. Morality is based on game theory. The history of morality begins long before Christianity (or any monotheistic religion) was even thought of. Animals exhibit moral behavior. If there were no morality, it would be invented right quick.

Humans are tribal animals. Tribes don’t work without cooperation. Cooperation doesn’t work without certain rules. Funny thing—those rules are exactly the same as what you might consider to be the rules of morality.

It would not be possible to survive in a world where there was no cooperation. People would be killing each other off right and left. Cooperation is built on trust. Where trust fails, we see war and death. The only way to stave off war is to operate society on the basis of certain rules. However, we don’t even need to express the rules for them to be obvious.

The rules have been distilled in the Ten Commandments, amongst many other places. These are the rules of society—civil rules—because up until a few hundred years ago, there was no difference between church and state. Church was State, and vice versa. The “religious” rules are pretty much still the same as civil rules because they work. And where they don’t work, they are changed. Some conservatives are pulled along kicking and screaming because they don’t like change, but the rules have only been “set in stone” as general principles, not as specific laws. And don’t forget, stone wears away over the millenniums.

Ah, what’s the use? You can lead a horse to water. Can’t make him drink.

SeventhSense's avatar

@daloon
We all conceive of a Higher Intelligence and react to it favorably or not because it’s inherently our nature. Atheism and agnosticism are reactive. We are in God closer than the air we breathe. Some just deny it as some neglect their health and get fat or deny their sexuality because they fear losing control. If one reacts to a mental construct of a different concept of God that’s just a difference of opinion. Those are just thoughts. If you truly consciously unplug you embrace death and sever from your very anima. And even that cannot disconnect you. It’s like a child shutting his eyes imagining it’s dark.

avvooooooo's avatar

@SeventhSense Delusion is not “inherently in our nature.” A desire to evade responsibility, however…

As @daloon said, the “virtues” that you think only come from religion are inherent in human social development.

YARNLADY's avatar

@SeventhSense (laughing) We all conceive of non-terrestrial beings as well, often called “Little Green Men” or more commonly the modern term “ET”. That doesn’t mean they exist.

SeventhSense's avatar

A conception is an imagination, yes, as are you.

JLeslie's avatar

@SeventhSense So when you say we are “in God,” does that mean you don’t think God is something that judges you when you die, or can create miracles? That God simply exists like air, not like a being that can manipulate things.

SeventhSense's avatar

Yes and no. Impossible to truly conceive-
The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao The name that can be named is not the eternal Name.

At best man can be a mirror. Having no form but omnipresent within all form, without need or cause, not static but expanding exponentially, containing all consciousness but without boundary so contain can never accurately describe; existentially present in the cell as the cell is to the body and intrinsic in everything as in the mirrored reflection Net of Indra. Infinitely echoed in the natural world as individual grains of sand relate to the beach entire, drops of dew to the ocean, cells to the body entire and on and on. An interconnected web of intricacy so inseparable from every other component to be in fact inseparable down to the atomic and subatomic level and beyond infinitely from the macro to the micro. In fact inseparable can not even describe since their is no possibility for separation.
and breathing to me is quite miraculous as is my heart beat

avvooooooo's avatar

@SeventhSense You have just confirmed that religion is nonsense. Congrats.

JLeslie's avatar

I was afraid that would happen. I tried to give @SeventhSense the chance to just blame it on semantics; but alas, it went into a ditch.

YARNLADY's avatar

@SeventhSense If your heartbeat is proof of God, what does that say about little babies who are born with missing or broken heart valves? What kind of God allows that?

SeventhSense's avatar

@avvooooooo
And that will be your experience since you’ve decided that. You actually believe in an independent arising? There is no such thing including your opinion. That’s beyond nonsense, it’s ignorance. You are a puppet to the discursive mind.
@JLeslie
The only thing in the ditch is the limitation of your willingness to step outside of your dividing mind.
@YARNLADY
I suppose as long as your concept of a God is one who makes discriminatory decisions based on individual preferences then that would be difficult to accept but that’s a very infantile view of God. Whose preference should take precedent? The forest is not visible from the floor.

Let go of fear. The self is the only foundation of the self.

YARNLADY's avatar

@SeventhSense It always comes down to the unknowable, which must be accepted on Faith, and I don’t have the kind of faith that is required. The God stories just don’t make any sense to me.

SeventhSense's avatar

I can accept that and my ideas are constantly evolving. Nothing is fixed and permanent.

FireMadeFlesh's avatar

@SeventhSense I have missed a lot of this discussion, but your idea of us being ‘in god’ sounds like some unfalsifiable mysticism, and does not sit well with my belief in evidence and reason based knowledge.
Why do you think there is in fact a god? Is this god active in human activities?

mattbrowne's avatar

@YARNLADY – Why would God eliminate illness and hardship? Would homo sapiens’ ancestors have come down their trees? Would they have felt the need to evolve and create tools and develop language?

YARNLADY's avatar

@mattbrowne I do not believe illness and hardship are necessry to progress. It is, of course, a whole other discussion.

You might just as well ask why God cares who wins the Superbowl, while 20,000 people are starving to death.

mattbrowne's avatar

@YARNLADY – Evolutionary biologists would disagree with you. Try to understand the concept of speciation.

If 20,000 people are starving to death, in most cases it’s people’s/society’s own fault. Except for dealing with a few severe natural disasters (like large meteorite impacts) humanity in 2009 has the tools and means to feed every single human being on Earth. We can also build dams, tornado and tsunami warning systems, as well as earthquake-resistant buildings. Our failure to do this is our fault, not God’s fault.

JLeslie's avatar

@SeventhSense Does God have anything to do with the afterlife? What do you believe happens when you die? And for those of us who don’t believe, do we get to go to the same place? Also, it sounds to me like you are saying we all believe in God even if we don’t. Like we don’t know our own thoughts?

avvooooooo's avatar

@SeventhSense And you would be a puppet to the religious machine. Someone prattling on in circular, rambling nonsense leads me to see that their views are nonsense.

My beliefs tend toward spiritual, not religious. I can see beyond the need for organized religion because most of what has come from it isn’t the things they preach like love and tolerance, but hate and intolerance for others not just like themselves. Not to mention the exploitation of people with things like tithes to keep the organization running.

My personal beliefs are based on the idea of “God helps those who help themselves” and a general idea similar to karma.

But then, this question is not about God, its about religion. The flawed, human structure that is many times more trouble than its worth.

SeventhSense's avatar

I can totally see the absence of organized “religion” yet I think it’s good for us to gather together. I don’t think my views are “religious”(whatever that is) or mainstream(whatever that is) for that matter. I mean no disrespect to anyone and that is how these discussions seem to degenerate. Whatever contribution I made towards that trajectory, I’d like to steer it back towards mutual respect.
I simply believe that there is a Higher Organizing Intelligence that exists beyond human comprehension. I don’t mean to insult anyone for their beliefs and I don’t want to be insulted for mine. All explanations can only fall short of defining ” ”, whatever ” ” is but many views that we bring to bear on ” ” all have the possibility of drawing us closer to one another and our shared experience in life.

JLeslie's avatar

@SeventhSense I can tell you are a peace and love kind of person, so as long as religion and God are not hateful, which I can see your beliefs are not, I’m ok with it. It’s not for me, but it seems to bring you happiness.

SeventhSense's avatar

Namaste to you all.

wundayatta's avatar

@SeventhSense When you write your poetry, as you did above, I find little to quibble about with you. I know the feeling of oneness with the universe. I would not dismiss it as mere mysticism or some kind of intellectual philosophizing. If that’s what you call God, then, while we probably have similar understandings or feelings about the universe, we use different nomenclature to talk about it.

I also do not see a need to universalize the feeling or to try to persuade anyone else to feel it. I think it has healthful benefits, and helps people gain a sense of themselves and where they fit in the universe, and, perhaps most importantly, a sense of not being alone—at least not how we usually experience aloneness. It is a sense of connection and an awareness of the ways in which everything is interconnected. It’s something that most people can understand intellectually in a “Leg Bone Connected to the Knee Bone” kind of way.

However, it seems to me that there is another, non-linguistic way of understanding these connections, or experiencing them. I don’t choose to call that God, but it seems to me that a lot of people do think of that as God. Certainly, when you describe it, it is a familiar thing.

What I reject, however, is the need to convince myself of its existence by persuading others that it exists. Nor do I think it has any power to do anything—this feeling. It helps individuals feel where they fit in the universe, but it means nothing in terms of predicting the future. And, while I appreciate it and am comforted by it, I don’t think of it as a consciousness—it just is.

There’s a strong tendency, however, amongst people who would make a religion of this feeling, to try to nail it down and make it into one thing, with one interpretation, and one way to access it. I can not go with that. For me, it is a thing that people find, or not. Sure, I would like others to feel it, because I know it has healing power. But I know it is something that people have to feel on their own. I can’t interpret their experience for them. I can only interpret my own experience. Although, even that, I try not to do. Mostly I just describe my experience, and I don’t try to tell others that it means anything to anyone other than me.

I also know how to open people up, so they can experience it. I think of it as a “spiritual technology.” It’s about creativity, though. It’s something that people can either experience just as a fun thing to do, or they can get some other sense from it, if they are open to that. Either way, it’s rewarding. But I reject the idea that it has to mean this, or it has to mean that. I think that if people can’t interpret it or make of it what they will, then it becomes worthless.

For me, it is about creativity. It is about responding to circumstances in a creative, non-threatening way. It is about taking whatever you bring to it, bouncing it off of other people, “speaking” to them without words (but with music and dance). It generates a non-linguistic language of its own, and it generates it new and different each time people join together in the rituals that help us experience it.

When I write this stuff, it means something to me, but the words seem totally inadequate. I don’t want to promise anything. I just want to share my experience, and yet, it’s an experience that is supremely difficult to describe, using words. It is the kind of thing that must be experienced before it can become understandable. Which makes it sound so suspicious. Well, I don’t guarantee anything, and I don’t think anyone can.

SeventhSense's avatar

@daloon
Yes I agree with you and yet I am moved to express the unspeakable somehow. And I will as easily talk against religion to a fundamentalist. Maybe it’s nothing more than to drop the watcher in me and be more fully authentic. Maybe my expression is the suspicious watcher in me.
I suppose it is the utter solitude of the individual experience that draws us to make attempts at formalizing. It seems to be universal-even in Science Fiction whether it be the sangha, the church or the mosque. Perhaps it’s not the form so much as the experience of letting go of self. Attaching to some form even if flawed can create unity. I think the idea of chanting is the closest I personally have come to a collective wordless and yet unified experience. When done right whether it be Buddhist or Gregorian there is a melding or dropping of the self if even only temporary.

wundayatta's avatar

I don’t experience it as a “letting go” of self. Rather, I get so involved (in chanting or whatever it is), and the next thing I notice, is that I’ve gone on that journey. Sometimes, playing music, I can go in and out of it. Sometimes my mind keeps going so much that I can’t get out of it. But I have learned not to worry about that. Eventually I’ll get there again. Sometimes being in your head is part of the journey. Or maybe it always is.

However, I do think it is always temporary. At least, I don’t expect to be there all the time. I know it is accessible, and that I will be in a position to experience it just about once a week. I may not get there, but there will always be next time. It’s all part of the journey, though. Part of learning how to get there is learning how to be with whatever happens. I may not like it. I may not be having fun. But it’s still experience, and it is important to learn how to incorporate it gracefully into my life. Part of that is trust—trust that it might not be working now, and maybe not next time, either, but there will come a time when it does work if I keep on giving it a chance.

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