If God made man in his own image why does Judaism (and no doubt other religions) insist on circumcision as a religous practice? Do they believe man has to improve on God's design?

God suggested it, as a sign of the Covenant. You could look it up.

Do you mean to say that G-d is uncircumsised?

as @pdworkin said, it was a sign of acceptance of the (EDIT:) Abrahamic covenant. It had nothing to do with “bettering” the body – it was simply an outward sign.

keep in mind, too, that, per the Bible, man was originally created perfect. After the introduction of Adamic sin, that’s when our bodies started to display things like imperfections and disease.

thanks @robmandu

@pdworkin okay so God made man in his own image and then looked at his cock and thought, “Actually this turtle neck doesn’t look right, I’ll tell the guys down there to lob it off all the new guys they make” ???

The Abrahamic Covenant.

Are you really expecting a literal interpretation of the Bible? The whole story is one giant allegory.

Well, people do literally cut the foreskin off their penis. So, yah… probably not completely out of the question.

is there a reason @Rocketman123 isn’t banned yet?

@shilolo if you accept it as an allegory, then that’s your point of view. If you view it as a holy book, then you might take it a different way.

of course, one could also look at it in the context that the covenant with Abraham ended with Jesus, and the circumcision issue was discussed by the early Christian congregation (in the Book of Acts of the Apostles), and was deemed no longer a requirement.

and, hey, if you don’t give a shit, you can always just pierce it and say “whatever”.

[ Removed by myself ]

I don’t have any idea. I would assume it has to do with either proving one’s faith through pain or else cleanliness. A lot of kosher practices conform to what one would expect of an ancient civilization trying to ward off bacteria. And no, before anyone gets outraged, I don’t think that’s the only point of kosher practices.

No matter what though, this is a great question.

@robmandu right I get it now, Circumcision is to be the permanent sign of this everlasting covenant with Abraham and his male descendants.

So it’s like wearing a sign to say you are part of a special club? A bit like a Gold Star or Pink Triangle?

I love the way mankind has a way of explaining anything that suits him at the time.

Actually real Jews/Christians/Muslims ought to have a sex transplant too if they happen to be born female, since God is male. And grow beards ;)

As others said, it has nothing to do with being in God’s image, but is one of these extra little rules. Though at the time (just like Muslims not eating pork) the rule also made sense because of health reasons.

@RareDenver why would you ask the question, if your only interest is to fault people who give you the answer you’re supposedly looking for?

Furthermore, it could be noted that “in God’s image” is not in regards to physical appearance, since God is a spirit creature, having no physical form. It relates to the qualities humans are capable of displaying, as opposed to animals, who are not created in God’s image.

@RareDenver You are treading on very thin ice when you actively ridicule people’s closely held religious beliefs. Were you trolling when you asked this question, or did you want a serious answer? the Sign of the Covenant is the serious answer, and if I were you I would be very careful before I began to make fun of the religious beliefs of others.

@eponymoushipster I was actually ignorant to the details of God’s Covenant With Abraham and this has answered my original question of where this practice came from so for those that answered it I am grateful.

And @pdworkin you state I would be very careful before I began to make fun of the religious beliefs of others.

Can I ask why, I am free to make fun of any other beliefs, political, social etc. What gives religious beliefs a special ‘no jokes allowed’ place?

I take it back. You are free to be as much of an asshole as you please, but you may possibly not be pleased at the way people respond to you. You may even incur some dental expenses.

Chill the fuck out, guys. :)

@pdworkin Brilliant, the true Christian response “Agree with what I believe or I will hurt you”

You are a true testament to your people

I don’t hold any such beliefs, I am an atheist, and quite secular, but I have lived on earth long enough to know what normative good behavior is in a social setting.

@RareDenver / @pdworkin: Seriously, if this is going anywhere it’s not going to a good place. Just, someone please be the bigger person and shut up.

[mod says] Enough with the personal attacks.

yazzum mizz monet, yessir mistah shilolo

@pdworkin I apologise for calling you a Christian.

I still don’t understand why you think I can’t poke fun at beliefs I think are ridiculous? I can quite easily poke fun at other beliefs, without it political satire would be dead and we would have hours of nothing on the TV.

What makes religious beliefs above other ideological beliefs?

I think it will be best if we discontinue our discussion. As has been pointed out, it is not likely to be fruitful. Let’s just agree to disagree on this one.

JUST FUCKING STOP.

:D

@all there’s nothing wrong with satire and with anyone’s beliefs per se… the problem here is that these comments are no longer in response to the original question and are becoming a series of personal attacks and have strayed from the topic. The point is to answer legitimate questions (even if you don’t think this one qualifies) and not to bitch each other out for what you think is or is not a valid belief.

If you want to go at eachother try a different forum like maybe the chat-room and try not to take over threads with this kind of thing. I have nothing against satire (in fact i LOVE it more than oxygen) or religious beliefs in general (i am a devout catholic). But this is not the place.

Removed (circumsized) by myself.

If you would like a real answer without the zealot mentality, IM me

I don’t think @RareDenver said anything to denigrate Jews, I think trully he just wants to understand, find some logic in it.

Rabbi Benjamin Blech authored the book, The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Jewish History and Culture.” He states that ”...circumcision is called a sign of the covenant in the bible…It’s meant to remind Jews of a fundamental idea—you are to complete an unfinished world.” There is a general theme from this Rabbi that God asks for people to take “active involvement” in perfecting and righting the world, to do whatever a person can. Doctors do this by curing the ill, Lawyers to pursue justice, etc. By the way it is a great book for an easy read about Jewish culture and tradition in the US. It is serious and funny all at once. Does explain some of the religious history, but also spends a lot of time making sense out of things like why many Jews went into acting and comedy (I never knew Dinah Shore was Jewish, her given name was Fanny Rose), feelings about America, stats on Jewish populations around the world and Jewish accomplishments. I recommend it.

Isn’t circumcision better for Penile hygiene? That duck butter getting in the way.

@ChazMaz But that is a modern day reason. I don’t think that had anything to do with why the Jews originally did it. But it seems that several of the “rules” that the Jews practiced wound up to be good hygiene.

Perhaps I should have my ears removed…

they keep getting this yellow icky gunk in them.

JLeslie – True, but why cant it be possible that even back then they understood the pitfalls of a dirty sheath. Then injecting it into scripture to make it final judgment as to how “God wants us” to live.

@ChazMaz I guess it is possible, but I think the consensus among rabbi’s is that it is not the reason. But, just the statement “consensus among rabbi’s” can be questioned, since rabbi’s often disagree, and it is a Jewish tradition to question and argue.”

Tradition. Some like it, some don’t. Thus the different genitalia in the world. A point of circumspect when a new lover enters your life..are they or are they not… Makes no rationale sense..like a tattoo.

Is shaving and getting a haircut improving on God’s design? God’s design obviously created strong-minded human brains capable of introducing symbols and human rituals to strengthen social bonds.

@JLeslie It’s not so much a modern day reason, as it is an excuse. It would be equivalent to removing children’s tonsils, or appendix, or breasts. Sure complications can happen with certain body parts, but they are rare and no reason to make a habit out of removing them.

only cuz I couldn’t resist
@pdworkin You are treading on very thin ice when you actively ridicule people’s race and ethnic history. If I were you I would be very careful before I began to make fun of the someone’s race, or mimic racial caricatures.

I don’t hold any such beliefs, I am not a racists, and quite open minded, and I have lived on earth long enough to know what normative good behavior is in a social setting.

@Noon We have had many discussions on fluther about circumcision and whether it is better or not regarding health and infection, completely aside from religious discussion. Many people fall on both sides of the argument.

@JLeslie Oh I know, I’ve been involved in a few. But there is no medical reason to do it (Proven by the simple fact that 85% of the world does not practice circumcision, and the number is rising). People are on the “other” side of the argument for reasons that have nothing to do with medicine. Since there is no other reason than “because the parents want to”, I find it a completely barbaric act. Not to mention completely unfair to the child.

But this really has nothing to do with the question, except that I feel that someone’s religious beliefs should not be allowed to do irreparable physical damage to their child. I find this statement hard argue.

@Noon We happen to be on opposite sides on the circumcision issue. But, I would not do it for religious reasons. I think most American’s don’t do it for religious reasons. America is only 2.5% Jewish, and large portion of Jews aren’t religious or theists..

@JLeslie I didn’t say your reasons had anything to do with religion. I said that your reasons are not backed by any medical rational. You would fall under the “because I want to” catagory I had mentioned.

And assuming you are female, why do you have any say in what happens to a body part that not only isn’t yours, but that you also have no direct understanding of?

“that you also have no direct understanding of?”

I am a Man. As having a direct understanding of that body part. I can tell you I know plenty of women that have an equal or greater understanding of it.

@JLeslie I am not an observant Jew, but I was circumcised by my observant parents. When I had to decide what to do about each of my two sons, I took into account that in their childhood years (before the age of 5) they would be likely to detect the difference between them and me, and that it might cause them some anxiety. I thought that was a good enough reason, even though I don’t back routine male circumcision as a general rule.

@pdworkin I know what you mean. I got a tattoo on my butt and realized that my 4 year old children were going to feel anxiety about them being different. So I tattooed them at birth. I mean that is far easier than sitting down and having a conversation with my children.

I have already said my opinion on this on other threads. My nephew who was not cut, did get an infection when he was little. My sister who is a nurse, has seen icky elderly men’s penis’ more than once. That is enough for me. I think it is probably easy to take care of the area when you are able to, so I doubt most men between the ages of 8 and 60 have any problems, although shilolo did site some statistics on the matter, she was for circumcision for infectious reasons. As a women, I would rather have the penis going into my vagina be cut. So there you go. I think Sex and the City did a show on it.

I did ask my husband if he wishes it had not been done, since his was done at the age of 5, and he remembers being in pain after the surgery. And, for him it is a non-issue, he was fine with it having had been done. I would trust his opinion if I had a son.

I would never try to convince someone who is against it to do it. I am fine with either decision.

@JLeslie You would never try to convince someone who is against it, but you have no problem circumcising your child before they can even decide if they are against it or not.

Let’s go over your reasons:
Your nephew got an infection,
Your sister says it’s “icky”
It’s only easy to take care of between 8–60,
some statistics (which you are not providing) have shown infection issues,
and you would prefer having a cut penis in your vagina.

So, of your 5 issues. Two are completely self serving. Which leaves 3.
The first, that it is not easy to take are of:
Lots of things are hard to take care of before 8, and after 60. This is a reason to chop it off? This is part of a hygiene regimen, just because parents are uncomfortable talking to their children about how to take care of their “down there” doesn’t mean you can get rid of the problem by chopping it off. Nose hairs and ear wax, teeth brushing, whipping butts, clipping nails, shaving, etc. are also hard before 8 and after 60. (all of them harder than cleaning your foreskin I might add) and we aren’t dissecting kids to take care of those problems.

As for your nephew and infection statistics (I will lump those together as one issue which really means that half of your reasons were self serving). Here is a web site on a study showing UT Infections in circumcised babies in hospitals.

http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/

And here is another showing both complications for circumcised and uncircumcised children.
http://www.cirp.org/library/general/tan1/

Or just skip to the bottom where it says that the practice of circumcision is no longer recommended by both the American Academy of Pediatrics and the Australian College of Paediatrics.

My point is not to make you feel bad about having circumcised your children. I just want you to understand that they were for your own aesthetic reasons and that there was no need. And if your child ever asks why, the only reasons you can give is because you wanted to.

No matter what your religious beliefs are… no matter if you agree that God made us in his image (zand if by that you think it was meant in a specific sense.. instead of a general humanoid form for example)... i think it´s EXTREMELY arrogant of anyone regardless of education, experience, tittle or any other factor to assume that any one human being can understand and or interpret the will of God/supreme being/whatever you believe in. It refers to a perfect omniscient and omnipotent being… who in their right mind can claim that something as primitive as the human brain can even come close to understanding it?

I´m all about faith based belief and hold strong to my catholic upbringing and consider myself religious (I even considered the priesthood).. but i´m also a realist and can understand that a lot of religion is a way of explaining the unknown, nourishing the soul and fostering faith and morality.

Also… if you believe in God… and believe him/her to be the almighty, lord of the universe and creator of all things… do you think he/she would really be bothered by something so trivial as foreskin?

end rant.

@noon I was not able to open your links, my computer has been awful, but I will try again later. I think you misunderstood the icky. Not icky because he is uncircumcised, icky because the elderly gentlemen had an infection on his penis, probably an acculation of smegma or maybe a yeast infection, because he was ill and probably had trouble bathing himself, and was not being taken care of properly. My nephew, I am not sure, my impression was that it ws a yeast infection also. Kids get hot and sweaty and don’t necessarily wash well, maybe it happens to young circumcised boys also?

I will give a trivial comparison, so don’t think I am directly equating the two things. Some of my girlfriends pierce their daughter’s ears before the age of one. Then I have other friends who wait until their daughter asks, usually by the age of 5 or so. Some of the girls go, and chicken out, because they are afraid of the pain. Eventually they get it done. I have never met a girl who did not want pierced ears. So which is better, to pierce their ears as babies or as children? I do wish there was an anesthetic used. I wish that for many medical procedures.

I would be interested to know if you are circumcised, and also to know how many men who are regret it, or angry their mother’s did it to them. That would be interesting, and persuasive.

And, by the way, I actually questioned the stats quite rigoursly on the last thread we debated this, regarding infection rates from a study (I think it was provided by shilolo) trying to make sure that the infection rates did not have more to do with other cultural or economic circumstances rather than the actual circumcision. I was afraid that the stdy revealed more of a corelation that causation. Shilolo felt confident the studies took all of these things into account.

Lastly, it is not for aesthetic reasons that I prefer to have sex with a circumsized man. I unfortunately have had significant problems with unexplained infection, and I would like to make the possibility of infection as low as possible. It has left me infertile and caused me quite a bit of pain physically and emotionally. It does make me more “germaphopic” than most. Men will ignore some discomfort “down there” and still have sex. If your breath is bad, to address your example of brushing your teeth, I am aware fairly easily. Although, your points about children and grooming are good ones worth considering. On the Sex and the City episode I think it probably was aesthetics, but don’t you guys want to have sex? Meanwhile, in reality, I don’t think any girl would actually dump a guy she liked because he was uncut.

I am not trying to convince you, just telling you where I am coming from. Your arguments are compelling.

i am reluctant to wade in to this discussion because I think some people – whether because of cultural background or not – are very comfortable with circumcisision and some are not and there’s no point trying to convince anyone. However, one point that I don’t think anyone has raised yet is that circumcision is being promoted for adult males in Africa because it has been shown to cut down (no pun intended) on the rate of HIV transmittal. There are valid reasions for doing it and there are valid reasons for not doing it; I’m not sure why people get so impassioned about it.

@Noon I gave you two threads down at the bottom you might be interested in. They Contains links for Infection studies and discussions on the issue of circumcision. The first Shilolo explains some of the physiological reasons why infection might be more easily transmitted, here is the answer after I questioned the validity of the conslusions of that study, ”@JLeslie Observational studies can be fraught with correlation, and they did in fact show that circumcised men have a significantly reduced chance of HIV transmission. However, 3 large, randomized studies (some men were randomized to circumcision, while an equal number were not) showed a dramatic benefit to circumcision (a 60% reduced chance of HIV) in a highly endemic region. This is not a correlation effect.

The biology is that inside the foreskin can be small abrasions or STDs that are not readily visible, either because they are hidden or because they are small. Having open wounds/sores greatly increases the chance of HIV acquisition. Yet another hypothesis is that the foreskin has a large number of Langerhans cells, which can be targets of HIV infection. Removing the foreskin removes this population of cells. Whichever hypothesis is true doesn’t change the observed phenomenon in 3 trials, so the cumulative data points to a dramatic benefit to circumcision.”

http://www.fluther.com/disc/51293/would-youdid-you-have-your-newborn-baby-boy-circumcised/

http://www.fluther.com/disc/41730/men-have-any-of-you-been-circumcised-at-an-age-when/

As always, it’s not that simple. Nice summary here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision

And because it’s not that simple it lends greater support to what I think is in fact a simple solution. One that only involves a paradigm shift.

Parents just have to stop acting like they own their son’s penis. They don’t. It’s his. It’s simply not a decision a parent has to make, because it’s not our responsibility…it’s theirs. It’s their dick.

So hand the decision over to the person who actually owns the penis and who has to live with it for the rest of his life. Then, at any time in their adult life, the guy can decide whether he wants to keep the foreskin or not (with I might add, all the benefits of another 15, 20, 25 etc… years of research, and a very good idea of what he wants or doesn’t want to do with it). Nobody else is, or will ever be, in a better position to make the right decision.

The only time when a parent will be forced to have to make such a decision for the little tacker, is in those rare cases of a medical necessity in consultation with the doctor.

Seems easy to me. Besides we have enough to worry about as parents. Why add unnecessary worries to the equation?!

I would just like to say I have an intact foreskin and I manage to keep my bellend clean too, I’m sure most of you didn’t want to know that but I’m drunk so can waffle on to my hearts consent

the jews practiced circumcision to symbolically represent their being different from the rest of the world.its a covenant with god