Tuesday, at Obama's "request," Netanyahu and Abu Mazen will summit. Peace in the Middle East just around the corner?

put pressure on israel. threaten to cease any financial or military support, threaten with sanctions or embargoes. right now israel is acting like a spoilt child, and needs a slap on the wrist.

@ragingloli Well, that was a little one-sided. I think I know where you stand on the issue.

it was one sided because i can’t see how much more you can punish the palaestinians.
they already have a stringent embargo, that prevents even basic goods to enter their territory, they just had to bear an israeli invasion that destroyed much of their infrastructure, they are being encaged by the israelis and the israelis are encroaching upon them by constantly building new settlements, which they are not even allowed to do.

How about some fair and balanced opinions and ideas?

what

Road to Middle East Peace (if the US is responsible):

Threatening embargo on Israel. it won’t ever happen

Threaten to take away Israeli aid. It won’t ever happen

Threaten to be anything but utterly and totally behind whatever Israel does. It won’t ever happen

Middle East peace is but a pipe dream if both sides won’t stop bombing eachother and stfu for once.

There can be no real peace while Netanyahu is in power.

sure the palaestinians have to stop shooting their makeshift rockets into israel, but how do you want to do that? you can’t hurt them more than they already have been. shooting their rockets is an act of desperation. if you want them to stop you have to start offering them benefits, like
1. stopping and reverting Israeli settlement on palaestinian soil
2. end the trade embargo
3. guaranteeing the integrity of palaestina’s territory and recognizing them as a sovereign nation
4. offering financial and humanitarian aid to rebuild their infrastructure and economy.

If you want a fair and balanced opinion your first have to realise that palaestina is the greater victim in this conflict, and israel the greater villain

the past modus operandi in this region by western nations in handling “rogue states” was “do this or else I’ll punch you in the face”. you don’t make any friends that way, but you sure as hell create a lot of hate against yourself by doing that.
If you want someone to do something, it isn’t enough to threaten them, you have to offer them benefits. you will create much more positive sentiment and easier cooperation this way.
now israel is somwhat an exception, because right now they have all the benefits, being backed by the west financially and military, so there isn’t anything you can really offer them. and they have exploited the history of the holocaust and the unbound pro-israel sentiment in the west to further their own interests with little regard to anyone else.

@AstroChuck The only real peace negotiations and ultimate signing of a treaty (with Egypt’s Saddat in 79) was by a right wing leader, Menahem Begin.

It is thought that only the right has the ability to sign treaties.

Last time Netanyahu was Prime Minister, he offered the Palestinians peace, he offered the Syrians peace and even offered to give them the Golan Heights.

He isn’t the hardliner people think he is. He has to keep a very difficult coalition toegther. Peace is a hard sell: once Israel withdrew from Gaza completely, it was rewarded with years or rockets (desperation? what would the US do if a desperate Mexico rained 10,000 rockets on her soil, from foreign unoccupied soil – remember, Israel is a democracy and Gaza has an elected TERRORIST Hammas Gov’t.)

Israel has withdrawn from most of the “west bank” and has offered almost 100% in exchange for real peace, minus lands that are already populated (200,000 Israelis have been there for over 40 years); they would be compensated with land around the territories in it stead, and a road linking Gaza (already exists – driven on it).

Israel withdrew from Lebanon in 2000. There were 2 more rockets launched against Israel from Lebanon just last week. So you can imagine why Israel doesn’t just pick up and leave the territories: Gaza and Lebanon have proven that the majority of Palesinians either do not want peace, or are simply not controlled by the government there.

@rag:

Don’t believe everything you read. Ever been to Israel or “Palistine” what you call Palistina?

I am playing devil’s advocate as this discussion seems to be one-sided and Israel bashing.

Dress them both up in those huge Sumo Wrestler suits and let them duke it out Mano e Mano, and he can officiate. Then we can send all the Palestinians to Jordan where they were supposed to be in the first place. That way nobody will be happy and the balance will be restored.

@Zen Well, two sides in a conflict are almost never equally right. Israel is the one that owns the building, the basketball court, has the ball and the referee mostly on their side. Israeli supporters has seated themselves in the Palestinian section, and continue to do so, no matter the protests from the Palestinian crowd.

And no matter what you want to call Hamas, they are elected, and Palestine is still occupied. Americans would never accept being in the situation that the Palestinians are, being occupied and wait and hope for the best. It’s a little bit similar to what happened to the American Indians. The Palestinians nowadays lives in reservations where they once lived everywhere quite recently. The actions of the Palestinian leaderships haven’t always been the brightest and the best, but the Palestinians do deserve respect as a people and for the legitimacy of a Palestinian state.

Read history, about 62 years ago, when the U.N. voted to grant the Jews a state. JUst a little piece of land, some say have been the Jews for 5000 years, about the size of New Jersey.

There were no Palestinians then. They are a myth, but for arguments sake, lets call the Arabs living in villages in the British Mandate of Palestine “palestinians.”

They too were given the option of a land – calling it whatever they want, alongside the Jewish state. No one sent them back to Jordan, or any of the other oil-rich arab countries that make up the middle east, with its hundreds of millions of wealthy sheiks.

The Jews, minus 6 million care of Hitler, were promised a land, tiny land, mostly desert and non-arid, formerly infertile ground, alongside the arabs there.

They chose to declare war instead. Together with all the neighbouring arab countries, even Iraq and mighty Egypt, they attacked.

They lost.

They attacked again in 1967. All together. They lost again. Land was occupied as a result, very strategic land, surrounding this tiny country.

In 1973, Yom Kippur (google it, it’s coming up again in a few days) they surprise attacked from all sides during the fast and holiest day. Lost again.

I don’t know what to say. I feel bad for their plight. Wish everyone could live in peace. But your sports analogies are a little too light and weak.

I’m with @majorrich – but would prefer a real peace accord and seperation of the two nations – like the border between the U.S. and it’s friendly neighbour Mexico.

Good fences make for good neighbours.

@Zen Palestinians are a myth? Yes, the bible is myth and stories, but places and people mentioned in there did or does exist. When and how were the Palestinians invented do you mean?

Hmm, what does WWII have to do with this? Historical jewish suffering gives Israel the right to do what they please? Does the land belong to Israel because the conquered it? That is a bit medieval. That would make the Iraqi situation more problematic.

For peace in the region, Israel has to take the initiative. They are the upper dog. If it stays like it is, how will there ever be peace? They can just continue to blame each other for destroying it. Even Israeli object to the policies of their own country.

What matters most: Is it who started it? Who was there first? 800 years ago there weren’t a single turk in Turkey. Now there are almost nothing but. Should they be thrown out? Should every black American be sent to Africa, and every white to Europe, so that the Indians can get their land back? The situation in Israel is what it is, they are all there now, and both Israeli and Palestinians have the right to live there.

Peace always comes from sacrifice from both parties in a conflict. Both has to give, but Israel is the strong one. They need to take the initiative.

There are people suffering on all sides here. Calling the Palestinians a fabrication is not a good angle if one wants peace.

To answer the overall questions; yes, I think they need to be pushed to negotiate.

Not with Netanyahu in power. Not with Hamas in power. Not with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in power.

The English kind of ran roughshod over pretty much the whole middle east and Screwed a lot of peoples over when they were there. A lot of the unrest and tensions can bee traced back to that. But, you will never get anyone to own up to it or even acknowledge they are or were wrrrnmmmnnng (remember ‘the Fonz’ couldn’t say he was wrong)

@ragingloli can you cite your reference for all the “new” settlements that the Israeli’s are building?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/6140282/US-angry-at-Israels-building-of-new-settlements.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement

The corner, if it exists, must be in a different Solar System.

Thank you for the clarification. I was under the impression that the construction was being done in areas which had already been established.

I had friends who live in Alfei Menashe, it’s an area that sees a lot of violence because of it’s location and more recently because of the wall which was built around it which obstructs the route into some “Arab” towns (I’m putting that in quotes… as it’s the vernacular, I am ignorant to whether that’s considered appropriate or not, so if it’s offensive, I truly apologize)

The wall was constructed for security…the HCJ upheld the decision to keep the wall, to preserve the safety of the residence of Alfei Menashe.

When I was there to visit, there was no wall, the settlement was gated…. When I think of a “gated community” I think of the retirement community my great uncle lives in Florida, this is NOTHING like that… there were military personnel manning the gates 24 hours a day with high powered weapons. They checked the ‘permits’ of every person in every car that came in and went out.

It’s a beautiful planned community, with schools, a community center that has a pool, down the road is a little grocery…

From there we drove to so many really nice places, Netanya, Jerusalem, Old Jaffa, where I met Denny Pinkus and ate cous cous with my fingers at a Moroccan restaurant.

Every where we went in Israel everything seemed to be fine. I didn’t see the ‘stressed relationships” that I had heard so much about. I saw PEOPLE interacting with PEOPLE in their daily lives

One night, we drove to Tel Aviv, to go to dinner, and take in the beach front scene, have some cocktails at the night club etc. On our way home we saw a commuter bus in flames in a town just off the highway. We learned the next day that a suicide bomber had gotten on board, blew himself and everyone else on the bus up.

All the above, leads me up to my statement

I don’t believe that Israel ceasing settlements is what will bring about peace.

As long as there are radicals who believe that the path to martyrdom is by getting on a bus, walking into a mall, or coffee house, or pizzeria, or nightclub, and killing as many Jews as they can, whilst killing themselves then the future of peace between the Palestinians and the Israeli’s is bleak.
President Obama has no more power to facilitate peace than you or I do… I mean that in no slight against him, as long as there are radicals who will stop at nothing to achieve their goal of terror, then there will be no peace.

It’s always good when people talk face to face instead of sitting at a distance and lobbing bombs at each other. Anything that humanizes the enemy is helpful.

Netanyahu is a lifelong right winger who has already failed to cooperate with our requests re settlements in the Left Bank. Abu Mazen no longer represents the plurality of Palestinians, and the people who do, Hezbollah, are not nearly as tractable as Hamas. Throw Iran into the mix, and the fact that Israel mistrusts Obama, and you have a recipe for a big bust.

@pdworkin—Netanyahu is a life-ling right winger is incorrect, as he has shown in the past. He is actually very pragmatic, and frightens the right wing parties because of his past behaviour – giving back Jericho, for example, without anything in return. Read up a little more.

Hezbollah? The international terrorist organization funded by Iran and based in Lebanon? What do they have to do with anything?

Hezbollah won the elections against Hamas. Where were you? And if Netanyahu did something outside right-wing ideology once or twice it must have been long ago.

I’m still all over the giant sumo sui…. ooooh oooh… PUGIL STICKS!!!!! Oh Baby! That will settle it once and for all. Duke it out til one cries uncle. Then send the Palestinians to Jordan where they belong.

@pdworkin When did Hezbollah of Lebanon win elections against Hamas of gaza. Cite? And what does that have to do with anything?

@pdworkin- I have to agree with @Zen on this. I’m no middle east expert but I know Hamas has been in power of Gaza ever since they knocked Fatah out 3½ years ago in the 2006 election (and now Hamas is trying to delay the upcoming election). Palestine has a multitude of political parties but I don’t believe Hezbollah is one of them. I thought they were exclusive to Lebanon, but I could be wrong there.

You are absolutely right. I conflated Hamas with Hezbollah. Call it a senior moment.

@pdworkin- No problem. I have those all the time.

@pdworkin I think you are confusing Hezbollah with Fatah, Hamas didn’t run against Hamas.

At any rate, I am confused. This will enable you to imbue my answer with a wisdom it did not originally have, and you may then mark it “great”.