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ragingloli's avatar

What is your opinion on the latest news from Israel?

Asked by ragingloli (51958points) October 23rd, 2009

Apparently Israel wants to acquire two German Meko type corvettes. They also hope that the German government will pay the entire price for the two warships.

I personally find this outrageous

source: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,656857,00.html

http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/23102009/323/israel-place-order-2-german-warships-paper.html

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32 Answers

troubleinharlem's avatar

That’s completely bogus. Why would they need/want that?

Do I really want to know?

ragingloli's avatar

@troubleinharlem
the two corvettes have stealth capabilites

dpworkin's avatar

Those fuckers. Why don’t they just sit back and relax about being surrounded by deadly enemies who have sworn to wipe them off the map, and who have tried several times since 1949?

They should just let themselves be exterminated, like they did the last time, instead of putting up such a fuss.

NewZen's avatar

I give up.

ragingloli's avatar

@pdworkin
Contrary to what you think, my problem is not that they want the two warships, but that they don’t want to pay for them.

dannyc's avatar

The human condition postulates there is some fundamental difference between races and or countries of origin, and their religions and color. Until that flawed mindset is set right, these incidents will continue until the species has evolved. As per darwinian principles apply, this may yet take many years or even centuries. The process has started though. Too bad humankind may all be dead before that simple revelation becomes obvious. We are born where we are by accident and have no claim to any land except in a tribal way that should correct itself one day.

judochop's avatar

Prick waving. Just a bunch of prick waving.

airowDee's avatar

Israel is so vulnerable with all th nuclear weapons they have.

drdoombot's avatar

According to the Yahoo article, Germany has partially financed Israel’s military purchases from them before. Israel is hoping they will do the same again.

So who’s at fault: the people willing to partially pay for someone else’s purchase, or the people trying to get a good deal again? Doesn’t everyone have a connection they use again and again for certain purchases, like shoes or jewelry? Are they all greedy and outrageous for doing so?

@ragingloli You’re obviously very anti-Israel, but don’t let your bias color your objectivity about the situation.

benjaminlevi's avatar

Can I has some free warships too?

jrpowell's avatar

I’m tired of paying Israel to by weapons from us.

NewZen's avatar

Hmmm. Shall we also take into consideration Germany’s past relationship with the Jewish people, perhaps? @rag represents a new breed of Germans who has, shall we say, too quickly fogotten.

When Merkel spoke to the Knesset last year in Hebrew, saying the Germans would never forget what happened and would always be there to defend Israel and the (few remaining) Jews worldwide – I tend to believe that she represents the norm, and not only a (temporary political) party’s stance.

I think Matt Browne is more of the concensus there, and I tend to think his musings here (fluther) on Israel represent the German people more than the writer of this question does. I hope so, anyway.

My grandparents are still around, sporting special numerical tatoos. I haven’t quite forgotten completely yet, though I wish I could sometimes, and then just debate so-called purchases of boats, weapons et al – as if there wasn’t a Gibsonesque undertone.

Psychedelic_Zebra's avatar

Well, we sold a bunch of weapons to the Sauds, and those assholes are the ones funding the zealots that keep shooting at our soldiers and planned the sept 11 thing a few years ago. We need to stop buying oil from the Sauds and tell the fuckers to go pound sand. of course, we need to figure out how to fuel our economy without their oil first.

I assume Germany will do it eventually, since they could probably use the money. Even successful countries with well-rounded militaries will cut deals on selling high ticket items.

Psychedelic_Zebra's avatar

the best way to solve the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is to move the Jews over here to the US, and give them a fair chunk of Utah, that way, if they are feeling antagonistic, they can fight with the Mormons.~

drdoombot's avatar

@Psychedelic_Zebra Technically, Sephardic Jews are permitted to participate in polygamy. Utah could be a paradise.

ragingloli's avatar

Shall we also take into consideration Germany’s past relationship with the Jewish people, perhaps?
Should I feel guilty about something that happened at a time when most people in the world were not even born yet?

a new breed of Germans who has, shall we say, too quickly fogotten.
I have not forgotten anything. History classes are quite thorough in that regard.

When Merkel spoke to the Knesset last year in Hebrew, saying the Germans would never forget what happened and would always be there to defend Israel and the (few remaining) Jews worldwide

There is a great difference between defending Israel and the Jews and unconditionally doing so. I couldn’t care less about Israel wanting to buy German war machinery, but what I am naturally pissed about is that they abuse history to guilt trip Germany (and the whole west for that matter) into doing their bidding and giving out expensive equipment for free. I could live with giving them reasonable discounts, if they would actually offer something in return, like, you know, honouring treaties and agreements they made or not committing war crimes. You know, “Quid pro quo” as they call it. But they don’t.
That is especially unacceptable if you include the fact that Israel itself, according to the Goldstone Report, is committing war crimes and possibly crimes against humanity.

I consider myself as one of the few who can stay objective when most otherwise reasonable people become ideologues when it comes to Israel.

NewZen's avatar

@drdoombot I don’t see a ~ tilde so some people might thnk that to be true – it isn’t. Not since the days of the bible have jews been permitted to have multiple wives. Arabs, on the other hand, can and do. Up to four usually, in Saudi Arabi et al – if they can afford it. It boils down to money. The Bedouin Nomads do as well, usually to keep things in the family – bioth through marriage and for keeping the money in the family (read goats and sheep).

Jews do not practice polygamy, period. Whether their ancestors are from Spain or from Poland.

You wrote: Should I feel guilty about something that happened at a time when most people in the world were not even born yet? Oy.

Have you been to any Holocaust memorial centers? Simon Weisenthal perhaps? Auschwitz? Visited Israel that you so viciously “attack” (I also read your details and tags – which are not amusing)? I have many German friends, and have spoken with many tourists from there who have changed their perspective once they have visited lovely (imperfect, young democracy surrounded by 1.2 billion arabs) that is Israel.

Maybe you’ve only given it the virtual tour. Wikipedia? It’s changed by kids like you daily.

It’s not whether you should feel guilty, but whether you should practise sensitivity and tolerance and understanding. You consistently say hurtful, insensitive and quite frankly anti-Israel and anti-semitic things – when I have a feeling you know nothing about the Jews, or Israel, except from wiki.

If I knew that you were black, e.g., and disliked black people (due to being a complete boor and moron – like many still are in the States and abroad, I wouldn’t keep posting questions aimed to hurt you about blacks being this and that. But based on your many questions and replies about other things, but I have a feeling I am not the one who can “reach” you at all anyway with this. Maybe I should shut the fuck up and let you all talk about Israel and get back to more important things, like life.

So enuf said.

dpworkin's avatar

History shows that we can expect a wave of destructive antisemitism about every 60 or 70 years. Generally the first step is an increased acceptance of the antisemitic idea that Jews are using tricks and sophistry to fool the world into giving them some sort of “special” treatment.

Perhaps @ragingloli is in the vanguard of our next recrudescence of fear and hate against Jews. The rhetoric and the attitude certainly seem to fit. I question whether to“shut the fuck up” is a useful strategy in the face of a clear and present danger. Better to shed light upon the darkness by frequent and vehement exposure.

drdoombot's avatar

@NewZen There are two kinds of restrictions placed on Jews: Biblical Restrictions and Rabbinical Restrictions. In most cases, the Rabbinical Restrictions were instituted to help prevent Jews from accidentally or unknowingly break Biblical Restrictions. As it stands, there is no Biblical Restriction against polygamy for all Jews. However, after the Jews were exiled from Israel and had no central law-making body, the group of Jews that were later to become known as Ashkenazi Jews had a Rabbbinical Restriction placed on them for taking on extra wives. Such a Rabbinical Restriction was never placed on Sephardic Jews. This is not to say that Sephardic Jews actually practice polygamy (I’ve never heard of such a thing), but due to a technicality in Halacha, they are allowed to. This difference in law between Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews is similar to the way that the latter are allowed to rice during Passover and the former aren’t.

All those years in years in Yeshiva weren’t for nothing; I learned all kinds of esoteric rules and applications that I will probably never use in my lifetime.

NewZen's avatar

@drdoombot Show me, please.

drdoombot's avatar

@NewZen Show you what, exactly? Most of things I know were learned in Jewish religious school, straight out of the Rabbi’s mouth. I only know that the great Jewish philosopher Rambam (aka Maimonides) said it was allowed and that some Rabbi (Rabbi Gershon ben Yudah?) was the one who made the Rabbinical Restriction against polygamy for Ashkenazi Jews.

dpworkin's avatar

@drdoombot similarly, while laining at Chabad, I discovered what to do if ever, while counting the Omer, I should cross the International Date Line. (I should say that I am not an observant Jew, I was Ba’al Teshuvah for a while in my late 30s and early 40s, and I still can’t read, so I’m no expert.)

ragingloli's avatar

@pdworkin
Perhaps @ragingloli is in the vanguard of our next recrudescence of fear and hate against Jews. The rhetoric and the attitude certainly seem to fit.

This is ridiculous. I am not criticising Jews. I am specifically criticising the Israeli Government’s Actions. And I am not talking about some far fetched Accusations of poisoning Wells or a secret jewish Conspiracy to take over the World, like you want to imply I do. I am talking about the Facts.
Let me be clear here, so that you don’t slander me again: I am absolutely in Favour of helping and protecting Jews from Harm and I am in no way accusing the Jews of any kind of Trickery. I am also in Favour of helping the Israeli Government. But what you and everyone else here must understand is that this Help can and must not be unconditional. When the Israeli Government steps out of line, it must be held accountable for its Actions.
When the Israeli Government commits War Crimes and ignores Treaties it made with the Palaestinians, then Help must come with certain Conditions, and a 300 Million € discount on two Dolphin Class Submarines whose combined Value is 1 Milliard €, or footing the Bill for the two Corvettes, wholly or partially, certainly does not help to encourage positive behaviour. On the contrary, it rewards the negative Actions the Israeli Government has taken. Voicing deserved Criticism of these negative Actions by the Israeli Government and calling for Accountability does not make anyone Anti-Israel or Anti-Semitic, despite your Claim to the Contrary.

dpworkin's avatar

I judge your attitude from the whole of your ouvre, not just this one post in this single thread. I’m sure some of your best friends are Jews.

NewZen's avatar

@pdworkin Well put. Sad, but that is exactly my sentiment. I especially enjoy her newfound discovery of the capital letter: not for jews and jewish, but yes for Conspiracy. Usually she writes only in small letters, but this time it was: secret jewish Conspiracy to take over the World. LIke I said earlier on – with her I give up.

ragingloli's avatar

@pdworkin
I’m sure some of your best friends are Jews.
So now I am a Racist too, huh? (just to cut you off, I know that “some of my best Friends are <enter Race here> is a common Defense Mechanism of Racists to conceal their Racism)

@NewZen
Since you ignored it, I did capitalise “Jew”.

with her I give up.
Why should I be overly concerned about the Opinion someone, who calls anyone who disagrees with him on Israel, an Anti-Semite and Nazi?

drdoombot's avatar

@ragingloli Your rage should be directed at the German government, who is giving Israel aid “unconditionally” (your word). Israel has not done anything wrong in “hoping” to get another discount.

Psychedelic_Zebra's avatar

okay, why is it when you say “Some of my best friends are <insert particular ethnicity/sexual preference, etc.> here, it is automatically assumed that the speaker is of a bigoted nature? My Dad was a full blown bigot, he pretty looked down on every one that wasn’t white, and I never heard him use that particular phrase. I know other bigots, and I can’t remember hearing them saying that, either. I use that phrase, and I am far from being a bigot. If I despise someone, it isn’t because of their color, preference, or something physically tangible like that. If I despise someone it is because they have annoying habits, they are dishonest, they have not proved themselves worthy of my acceptance, or they are just plain assholes. Just because I despise the Mexican family that lives on the East side of me, that doesn’t make me a racist, because I have Mexicans and Black neighbors I get along with just fine, including inviting them into my home.

Response moderated
zensky's avatar

Abu Toameh: What the Western Media Misses
November 12th, 2010 at 8:26 am Arsen Ostrovsky

A few days ago, I was fortunate to attend a talk by Israeli Arab journalist Khaled Abu Toameh in Jerusalem.

Toameh gave an incredibly wide ranging talk about the peace process, the double standards rife in the West and the media when it comes to coverage of the Middle East and his perspective as a Muslim Arab of Palestinian descent living in Israel (and you thought you had identity issues!).
Toameh has been working as a journalist for almost 30 years now, covering Palestinian affairs, focusing predominantly on the West Bank and Gaza, including for the Palestinian press under the PLO and for various international media outlets in the US and Europe. He is currently at the Jerusalem Post writing on Palestinian issues. Toameh is also an Israeli citizen living in Jerusalem. In other words, he is aptly qualified to comment on the issues of his discussion.
However, if you expected Toameh to jump on the anti-Israel bandwagon with the familiar cries that Israel is an un-democratic apartheid state responsible for all that is wrong including the bubonic plague or to have a single-minded focus on the occupation, you would have been sorely disappointed.
Instead, he spoke openly, courageously and in his words, said it “as it is”. Asked what he thought was the essence of the conflict, Toameh said it was not about money or even settlements, as many so called pundits often imply, as a precursor to blaming Israel. Rather, his answer was very simple:“This conflict is about Israel’s very existence in this part of the world.”
But before you get any conclusions, Toameh is not a card carrying Zionist or as somebody once asked him “when did you get on the Israel lobby payroll”. In his own words, he says:
I’m not pro-Israel, I’m not pro-Palestinian and I’m not pro-American. But as a journalist, I’m pro the facts and pro the truth.
Here are some of Toameh’s illuminating comments:
I asked Toameh how, as an Arab Muslim Israeli, he responds to accusations that Israel is an apartheid state.
His response:
Israel is not an apartheid state. But there are problems and some discrimination with the Arab minority inside Israel. If Israel were an apartheid state, I, for example, would not be allowed to work for a Jewish newspaper or live in a Jewish neighborhood or own a home. The real apartheid is in Lebanon, where there is a law that bans Palestinians from working in over 50 professions. Can you imagine if the Knesset passed a law banning Arabs from working even in one profession? The real apartheid is also in many Arab and Muslim nations, like Kuwait, where my Palestinian uncle, who has been living there for 35 years is banned from buying a house. The law of Israel does not distinguish between a Jew and an Arab.
As for the uniqueness of the Israeli media in the middle East, Toameh added:
Israel is a free and open country with a democracy, that respects the freedom of the media. You can basically write any anti-Israel story and still walk in downtown Jerusalem or Tel Aviv without having to worry about your safety. Anyone can be a journalist in Israel.
Toameh says he finds it ironic that as an Arab Muslim living in this part of the world, the only place he can express himself freely is in a ‘Jewish newspaper’, noting that:
We don’t have a free media in the Palestinian area, we didn’t have one when I was working there in the late 70’s and early 80’s, we didn’t have one when the PLO came here after the signing of the Oslo accords and we still don’t have one under Fatah and Hamas.
But what about the media’s need for an anti-Israeli angle on stories? Toameh says that when he tried to alert many of his foreign colleagues that Palestinians were dying because of an internal power struggle or gross corruption by Arafat and the Palestinian Authority, their reflex response was:
Where’s the anti-Israel angle to the story? Give us an anti-occupation story. Make our lives much easier. An Arab killing an Arab, that’s not a story for us.
Toameh notes that the same foreign journalists would then ask him: “are you on the payroll of the Israel lobby?” Do they [the Jews] pay you to say these things against Arafat and the PLO?’ Toameh’s response to them:
what do the Jews have to do with this? I’m telling you what the Palestinians are saying about there being corruption in the Palestinian Authority. I’m even telling you that the PA is saying that the PA is corrupt.
It is a sad reflection on the state of society, and in particular, the media industry, that not only are they not sufficiently concerned or outraged at the death of Arabs by Arabs (which coincidentally has claimed many more lives than the Israel – Palestinian conflict), but that they will only muster even an iota of concern if they can put in an ‘anti-Israel’ angle.
On the proposed loyalty oath as well, Toameh offered a pragmatic response: “I have no problem with it because it applies equally to both Jews and non-Jews alike.”
One of the biggest and most intractable sticking points has consistently been the Palestinian demand for a right of return, which Israel will not agree to because it would mean the death knell of Israel as a Jewish state.
However, Toameh offers a very simple and pragmatic three stage solution, where the Palestinian refugees could:
1. Go to the future Palestinian state;
2. Resettle elsewhere, including other Arab states; and
3. Be offered compensation.
Most tellingly though, and in a statement seldom ever heard from Arabs (or the West), Toameh then asked: “and what about Jewish refugees that were forced to flee Arab nations”, suggesting that the issue of Jewish refugees must also be part of any future solution.
Focusing on the problem from Arab dictatorships and their insistence on inciting their people against Israel, Toameh says that we have a problem in the West in failing to believe what people tell us.
If Hamas say they want to destroy you, you have no reason not to believe them. And if Ahmadinejad says he wants to destroy you, there’s no need to start analysing what he means by that. Stop fooling ourselves and if anyone thinks that Hamas will ever recognise Israel’s right to exist, you’re also living in an illusion. Take it from their mouth directly…the PLO however is different – they will tell you one thing in English and then another in Arabic.
On the subject of Arab dictatorship, Toameh says:
Arab dictators survive by constantly blaming the misery of their people on Jews and the West and never accepting responsibility for anything. And by inciting against Israel and the West, you divert attention from problems at home. Why? Because you always need to make sure that your people are busy hating someone else. If they’re not hating Israel and the West, they might wake up one day and come to you, and God forbid, demand reform and democracy.
The crux of the message is:
If you keep inciting your people, then they ask ‘well, why are we then making peace with the Jews?’ We should be killing them as Hamas is saying’.
So what does Toameh think about Mahmoud Abbas, the PA President?
Abbas is corrupt, discredited, weak and does not have much power. He is reliant on Israel, who’s presence in the West Bank is ironically the only reason he has managed to stay in power.
And if Israel withdrew to the 1967 borders as demanded by Abbas and the PLO:
Abbas will collapse and Hamas will take over the West Bank in less than a day. If I were Israel, I would not give Abbas one inch of land in the West Bank – not for ideological reasons, but to avoid a situation where Hamas and others would take over the area.
When we asked him how best to defeat the extremists, radicals and terrorists like Hamas and Hizbullah, Toameh answered:
The first and most important thing is you go to the Arab governments and tell them stop the incitement that’s feeding these radicals and driving people into their hands. Sometimes there’s no difference between what is written about Israel and the Jews in the papers in Egypt and Saudi Arabia with what is written by Hamas.
Noting again the billions of dollars in aid provided by the US and EU to various Arab dictatorships, Toameh says in other words, and even clearer, they should tell them:“Stop calling for my death with my money.”
I asked Toameh about what steps were needed to move forward. According to him, the answer is “very simple” and involves the following steps:
1) The Palestinians must start investing money (provided to them mainly by the US and EU) for the welfare of their people instead of incitement. Then dismantle all militias, establish a free press and democratic institutions, end the infighting, insist on good governance and speak with one voice so at least we know who we’re talking to. And then he suggests they should go speak with Israel and see what it has to offer them.
2) Deal with the enemies of peace – if you weaken the enemies of peace, like Iran, Hizbullah, Hamas, the moderates will rise and start speaking out. But as long as Iran is breathing down the neck and threatening, together with Hamas and Hizbullah, who are threatening to kill anyone who makes concessions, no moderate Arab will ever dare sign an agreement with Israel. Toameh says:
I don’t even rule out military action against any of them because this is the only language these guys understand. Talking to them and appeasing them is even more dangerous.
3) “We can’t move forward when you don’t have a clear, strong, reliable and credible partner on the Palestinian side” says Toameh. According to him: “Abbas is not a partner. He and Fayaad might be nice guys with good intentions – but they cannot deliver. So the PA are not partners because they cannot deliver and Hamas are not partners because they don’t want to be partners.”
Addressing the issue of whether there was a clear and credible partner on the Israeli side, Toameh said:
I don’t care who is in government in Israel. There is a partner. And my partner is the Jewish people. Why? Because a majority of Jews have already accepted a 2 state solution. I see a majority of Jews who don’t care anymore about Gaza. I see a majority of Jews who want to disengage from the Palestinians. I see a majority of Jews over the last 15 years marching toward moderation and pragmatism. I don’t know today of one Jewish mother that wants to send her son back to the streets of Ramallah or Gaza. I don’t know of one Jew who wants to control the lives of the Palestinians and run their education and health system. Sadly though, while the Jewish public has been marching towards pragmatism and realism and moderation, on the Arab side the message remains no, no and no.
In an incredibly candid address, for me perhaps the most defining statement Toameh made was when I asked him – would you rather continue living as a member of a minority in Israel or move to another Arab country? Toameh’s response was simple, honest and telling:
Israel is a free and open democratic country. I enjoy living here and I would rather live as a second class citizen in Israel, even though I’m not, than a first class citizen in any Arab country.
In a world where it’s all too easy to turn a blind eye to courage, Khaled Abu Toameh is a welcome breath of fresh air. A man, deeply committed to peace, who is seen as a traitor by many and who bravely continues to put his own life on the line each day, Toameh perhaps says it best himself:
I’m not pro-Israel, I’m not pro-Palestinian and I’m not pro-American. But as a journalist, I’m pro the facts and pro the truth.

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