Is Faith an important virtue to hold?

Of course it is.
This entire life is all about faith and nothing but faith.
Even science is only there to lead you back to the very essence of this life:
The five-lettered word: “F.a.i.t.h”.

@archaeopteryx , I’m sorry but I don’t understand. Could you explain a little further?

I wouldn’t mind holding Faith Hill. That would be a virtue for me.

I’m guessing you are referring to the religious type of faith. But there is also faith in yourself and faith in those around you. I wouldn’t want to go through life without that type of faith.

“If you can’t have faith in yourself, how can you have faith in anyone else?” -Some guy I don’t remember the name of

I don’t know that I’d classify faith as “virtue” exactly, in that it’s not always a force for good. It’s more a practical necessity in that we often have to act without full information. Certainty is sometimes not an option. In these situations, we may rely on probabilities or instinct. Faith can be defined so as to encompass this kind of commitment in the face of uncertainty.

Faith ceases to be a virtue when it blinds one to the evidence of experience. If faith is so narrowly defined as to mean that one has a belief that can’t be altered in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, then it becomes a potentially very negative thing.

It depends entirely on how you define the word. Does it just mean “trust”? Trust is good.

But usually people use the word “faith” to mean something like “trust in things that have no evidence or reason to support them.” Which would be a bad thing.

I was thinking of Faith as the belief in something without a foundation of logic or evidence. Can a good life be led without holding to the above definition of faith? If I refused to believe anything without logic, reason, or evidence backing it up, what would I be missing.

I take probabilities as the use of logic and reason, as long as I recognize my belief as a probabilistic one.

@arpinum

For example:

The faith that nothing can come out of oblivion by mere chance.
The faith that this universe has someone watching and managing it, and it can never last a single second without him.
That “someone” is God.

YES archaeopteryx is correct !!
you all should have faith in ME

The Virtues laid out by Aristotle and Plato:
Chastity (purity)
Temperance (self-control)
Charity (generosity)
Diligence (effort)
Patience (peace)
Kindness (satisfaction)
Humility (modesty)
Justice (fairness)

These were modified by the Catholic church into four Cardinal virtues: Prudence, Justice, Restraint, and Courage, and three Theological virtues: Faith, Hope and Charity.

The virtue of Faith is based on how well you believe.

What @archaeopteryx is defining as “faith” is not faith per se, but recognition of the intellectual shortcomings of man to understand everything about the world around him, and his origins. Religion developed as a way to explain the unexplainable.

Faith and Belief are two different things. You should strive for faith if your consider yourself a religious person. If you’re not sure, there are plenty of classics to read to help you decide. Start with Plato and Aristotle, and work forward.

You can’t “have” faith any more than you can “have” patience. Either you “are” faithful or you “are” patient. They are not things that you adhere to, but are active states that you are or strive to achieve. They are ways of being.

I find that most people who hold faith as a virtue mostly have faith in things that do not deserve that faith at all. And it’s usually the religious tradition they happened to grow up with.

Faith for the sake of faith is a recipe for being dead wrong and never finding out. This is a major flaw. It’s as stupid as testing the depth of the water with both feet.
Faith as a special position to award to people or ideas that have proven themselves worthy, that is wisdom.

I wouldn’t call having it a virtue either way, though. Depending on the situation, it can be a good or a bad idea.

And I suspect it was people who wanted to control other people who spread the idea in the first place that it’s virtuous to have faith. People who won’t feel bad about doubting the dominant beliefs are dangerous to bad rulers.

I don’t know if I hold to ‘faith’ as a virtue as much as I would classify it as hope. I work at keeping a positive faith that things will work out as they were meant to as long as I do the best I am able.

(I routinely listen to Three Little Birds to remind myself to let go of my death grip of Dear God I Have To Control The Universe At All Times Or Something Horrible Will Happen And It Will All Be My Fault.)

@archaeopteryx
If this website offered the option to downvote people, I’d use it on both of your posts right now. You are being stupid.

You prove yourself a typical person of faith by making strong assertions like these and backing them up with nothing at all. But believing something very strongly does not make it true, not even if you just believe it a bit harder.
If it did, I would have learned to fly as a kid.

To the smart people, the only thing that can be convincing is an argument. I recommend you start looking for one instead of rehearsing your mantras.

Faith by itself is neutral. It’s what you do with it that matters.

Just like a hammer – a hammer is not good or bad. You can use it to build a home through “Habitat for humanity,” and that is probably Good. Or, you could use it to rob someone in an alley, and that’s probably Bad. But either way, the hammer is just a tool.

Similarly, Faith, when used to benefit you and others, is good. But Faith, wielded like a hammer in an alley – not so good.

I have a hard time declaring a blanket “Good” or “Bad” to anything. Thinking makes it so.

@Fyrius If you define faith as synonymous with belief I think his posts make sense, at least philosophically. However you define faith and if you consider it a virtue don’t really matter to me. If you don’t accept or assume some things to be true without proof you probably can’t live a productive life.

@laureth When can faith be “used to benefit you and others”?

@anthelios77 Why can’t I live a productive life without faith?

I have no faith and I live just fine.

@arpinum – Faith can hold a society together despite great odds. I need only point at the Jews, who have been knocked around for ages. If they didn’t have a strong faith to bind them, to give them an identity, they may well have scattered to the winds. In this case, whether what the Jews believe is true or not is beside the point. The faith itself has provided an advantage.

Also, I have a friend who, out of his faith, is moved to spend just about every dollar he has on going to Africa and providing the poor there with solar-powered water purifiers. Whether Jesus is real or not is irrelevant, but he believes that Jesus wants him to give people clean water to drink. I think that’s a great use of faith.

@arpinum Hello. That’s not quite what I said. I said: “If you don’t accept or assume some things to be true without proof you probably can’t live a productive life.”

I didn’t mean that that is faith, but it can be a valid definition. I was probably a bit unclear..

@anthelios77
“This entire life is all about belief and nothing but belief”?
Still makes no sense. A human life can be about many different things.
It can be about love, or fame, friendship, ambition, money, knowledge, strength, achievement, revenge, vindication, helping people, happiness, art, acceptance… or a combination of such things.

A life that revolves around belief is not a life I would want to live. What if your beliefs turn out to be wrong?
Particularly if it’s a belief as well-informed and intelligent as “that nothing can come out of oblivion by mere chance.”

I’d prefer my life to be about a rational search for the truth, where all belief is well-justified but provisional nonetheless, thank you.

@Fyrius

I’m not rehearsing my mantras at all..
You are rehearsing the loads of lies feed to you by Richard Dawkins and the likes of him.

@archaeopteryx If you don’t want to start a flame-war with those opposing your beliefs, then please don’t call theirs “lies.”

You can’t defend your own view while simultaneously rejecting the views of others.

Also, if you don’t believe in gene-centric evolution, then I find it highly ironic that you’d choose the Archaeopteryx for your screen name.

@archaeopteryx
Your mom is rehearsing lies.

Found any arguments yet? No? Well, talk to you later then.

@Fyrius
Well here’s my argument.
My argument is simply that even gene-centric evolution (assuming it was real) would never be enough to deny the existence of a creator.

Evolution (again, assuming it was real), is simply no more than a process that was applied by the creator in creating this universe.

@Beta_Orionis
Evolution is not true.
The genealogical and biological similarities can only prove one single, but major thing:
That the Creator (God) is one, and there is no creator, maintainer or owner of this huge universe other than him.

Oh! And by the way, why did you oppose me when I said the word “lies” , while it was totally okay with you to hear him call me stupid?

Btw, I wasn’t calling Fyrius a liar. I called Dawkins a liar, and will continue to do that.

@archaeopteryx Again, the irony abounds. Also, I never said that gene-centric evolution would disprove the existence of some higher being.

Considering you are unwilling to entertain the ideas of others, and are happy to denounce them without reason or rationale, then your arguments are “marked by or resulting from unreasoned thinking or acting” (blind faith) and you yourself are “lacking in power to absorb ideas or impressions” when they oppose your absolute truth.

That being said, I never supported the obvious personal attack. I also didn’t see (“hear”) it and thus was not “okay with it.”

Calling the ideas he espouses lies is also calling everyone who believes in them and reiterated them a liar.

I’d like to hear the reasoning behind your idea that those similaries can only prove the existence of a creator.

“faith” is simply “confidence.” and it is just as important to be confident as it is to avoid being over-confident.

@Fyrius You made me over-cook my pasta.. :)

I’m reading his posts from a different paradigm than his so naturally I’m connecting the dots in a way that he isn’t. But still, it’s not difficult to claim that we don’t know if we are alone in existence or if some powerful being is feeding us lies about what the existence is like. Hence you could claim that all things in our lives are based on belief since you assume your view of existence is correct, and because you act and live on that belief. Maybe it is possible to not hold a view of existence though, or to not act on that belief.. hard to imagine.

Of course there are those who don’t actively believe since they never made an active conscious decision on what they believe, or consider themselves to have a belief. They might say they know the truth since they have evidence. I don’t consider that as not having a belief.

@laureth comment about the faith of Jews through the ages illustrates that the virtue of faith is active. The Jewish faith has survived because the adherents are faithful. It’s active. It’s not what you believe but how well you live what you believe.

@arpinum, to answer your question to @anthelios77, you can live a productive life without faith, because faith is a Theological virtue. If you don’t adhere to a theology, then you can do just fine without faith. If you do adhere to a theological perspective, then you must be faithful to that theological belief in order for it to have meaning in your life.

@Beta_Orionis
Well, at least I gave an argument while the only thing you are capable of saying is “again the irony abounds”.

Plus, those similarities not only prove the existence of a creator, they also prove that this creator is one.

If we ask two or more artists to draw a flower, each one of them will draw it in a totally different way than the others. Almost the same thing can be said about the creator of this universe.

@arpinum You can certainly lead a good life without faith, but I think it might be a more emotionally painful one. For example, if something tragic happens in your life (death of a family member, absolute bankruptcy, etc, etc.) You really don’t know for certain that you will recover from the loss or experience, but faith that things will improve serves to ease your mind a bit. Otherwise you would be unable to focus on anything but the problem or the internal conflict, until it was resolved.

@archaeopteryx That’s not an argument. You provided no data or example to support your statement.

@Beta_Orionis
I partially agree with your last argument with @arpinum.
That’s true.

@archaeopteryx Out of curiosity, what in there don’t you agree with? (there’s so little to begin with)

@Beta_Orionis
I agree with almost all of what you said, but I still believe you missed some other stuff.

What you missed is that this life is in fact temporary, and that faith is the only thing that can help you believe so.

@archaeopteryx faith helps me believe life is temporary? It’s obvious through the fact that things die and their cells deteriorate, but I still hold out for the counterexample.
I know things die because a great number of people I’ve known (in addition to the people known by the people i know) have died, but I’ve not personally witnessed every person and living organism on earth die, and more come into existence each day, so theoretically something could still escape death. For now, I expect I will die as that’s the overwhelmingly common circumstance.

So how is there faith involved?

@Beta_Orionis
Faith comes in to make you believe that this life is not the one you should live for, and that it’s no more than a passage to another, eternal, life.

@arpinum To reinstate and clarify. I don’t believe you need a theological faith to lead a productive life, but you do need to believe. Some will claim that faith and belief are basically the same thing, myself included.

@archaeopteryx no, reread please. (i edited a bit.) Faith is not leading me to believe i will die. It seems highly likely that I will die because the evidence indicates that, but I don’t know for certain, so I have no faith in death.

Wait, you just said that life is temporary and life is eternal (not the same life in your mind, I know) in basically the same breath. It can’t be both. There is no evidence to tell me there is another, eternal life. No one’s brought us vacation photos and documentation. I only know for certain there is one life, the one I’m currently experiencing, and so I will live that one to its fullest potential.

My mother died today. I have no belief in god, theology or an after life. I know my mother is gone. I have no delusions about her living again, I don’t think she is with other deceased loved ones, or that I’ll see her again. I am less of a mess than my religious and faithful family members. Just sayin’.

@tinyfaery hug

Faith for me is being able to leap in all sorts of matters…

“If we will disbelieve everything, because we cannot certainly know all things, we shall do as much as wisely as he who would not use his legs, but sit still and perish, because he has no wings to fly” John Locke

@archaeopteryx
I’m afraid you misunderstand what the word “argument” means. What you present as arguments are just more unfounded assertions.
Furthermore they are off-topic. We’re not even talking about Christian mythology or about evolution theory. The question is whether faith is a virtue or not.
On that subject, I say faith is not in itself a virtue. My argument is that faith can make people become like you. I rest my case.

Furthermore, there are a few things I think you should be aware of.
1. Nobody is saying evolution proves your god isn’t real. There are much better reasons to believe your god probably isn’t real. Atheism is older than evolution theory by at least two millennia.
2. Common descent is a fact. Read up on biology if you don’t believe me.
3. Richard Dawkins is an influential biologist who has made major contributions to our understanding of life. Call him a liar if you want to, but I want to mention that he is a greater man than you, or me.

Calling you stupid qualifies as a personal attack, I guess that’s true. But I think it was completely justified as a observation. You really were being stupid.

Incidentally, I have adopted the working hypothesis that you are a troll. In accordance, I’m not even going to bother refuting your cute sophistries.

@anthelios77
Of course, we need to make certain assumptions about the world if we are to understand it; if only that the next rock you drop will also fall downwards, just like all the ones you tried before. And such assumptions can be well justified by rational considerations.
But having faith in these assumptions is still only justified to the extent that predictions that rely on them turn out to be true. Trusting them against better knowledge is not virtuous at all.

@tinyfaery
My condolences. :(

@Fyrius Personal attack as it may have been, I did qualify it and point out your use was justified

@Fyrius Naturally, but some assumptions that I make rest on too little ‘evidence’ for them to be rational. E.g. the theory of Big Bang. I have little reason to actually believe it to be true but I still do. Not that that has much influence on my life, except when I discard other theories that go against it. This is strongly connected to my trust in others though..

“Trusting them against better knowledge is not virtuous at all.” Nope, not at all, belief or faith is just a starting point.

Fluthering should be considered a virtue since it can lead to an open mind.

@Beta_Orionis
Well, thank you.
Frankly I’m half expecting a mod to show up and tell me to behave, particularly after mentioning @archaeopteryx’ mom.

@anthelios77
Well, suit yourself.
I for one believe in the Big Bang theory only to the extent that we do have evidence for it; if another model pops up that can better explain the expanding universe and make all the math work out, it’s ta ta to the Big Bang theory.

As for fluthering, I think the word “virtue” should be reserved for things less specific. Being helpful or having an open mind are virtues. Fluthering is only the manifestation of these, for some people.

@Fyrius I will suit myself. :)

As you said “we”.. Personally I have almost no evidence, just the word of others. I’ve accepted it because of what scientists claim to have found. The basis in my reasoning is the number of voices claiming that it is the best model so far. I wonder if there are actually more voices in the world claiming otherwise… There are of course other reasons as well since I’ve accepted theories on light and that stars seem to move apart and such, but again, that isn’t anything I’ve looked into personally.

Yeah I was jesting a little about fluthering, I ment the source of that manifestation like the drive to search for opinions and answers. I shouldn’t have gone from being very literal to so vague. :)

@anthelios77
A good point.
But mere voice count is a very poor indication of reliability, as I think you would agree. Certain voices deserve more attention than others.

And this is where faith comes back in. I have much faith in science on scientific matters, and far less in laypeople. If contemporary science comes to conclusion A about a subject too complicated for me to have the time to form my own independent judgements about, I am quite prepared to take their word for it and assume conclusion A is well justified. Because they are well-trained, professional experts who dedicate their lives to answering these questions, who live by a code of honesty and thoroughness, and who work in an even stricter system where dishonesty ruins careers and stupidity is not even an option.

“Faith that things will get better” is just another way to say “Hope,” which the asker already recognizes as a virtue.

@laureth I think they’re a little different. For me, faith implies confidence and security in a particular outcome, while hope, although tied to a positive outlook, leaves more room for uncertainty.

@Fyrius Thanks. And you’re right, I do agree. I guess what makes me hear those voices over others is because of the circles I ‘run’ in. They are closer and thus louder, and they often come from the scientific system, which I also put faith in. There are some flaws with that system but I consider it good enough.

@anthelios77
I concur.
Although as the science fanboy I readily admit I am, I’ll have to point out that while there are flaws in any system, the scientific method is the single most reliable and productive method of finding the right answers mankind has developed to date. :P

In my opinion, it is important not to have faith. Faith is belief without evidence, which can be a dangerous thing. Evidence and reason should be the values we rely on.

You are either a seeker or not. To make this easier, it require independent investigation of solid and established sources. I recommend www.bahaifaith.com

@tinyfaery I am sorry for your loss. Though you are without faith, I hope you don’t mind if I say a prayer for you and your mom.

Bahai is good is your a heterosexist and think being gay is somehow bad.

@filmfann Do as you wish. Just know that it gives me no comfort. I’m sure my mom would appreciate it, though.

There are two kinds of faith, and I think one of them is a virtue.

One kind of faith is solid. Like the faith in one’s Mother. Or even faith in God, if it’s real and unshakable.

But then there’s the other kind of faith… the kind that is pathetic because it is based on the person’s hopes only, and not much else. That’s the kind of faith a lot of religious people have. Or the faith a salesman has for his company, or the faith of a teenager who suddenly is interested in New Age spells. Wishful-thinking hopeful faith… but not solid.

When it’s solid… it’s a virtue.

If anyone that we must give precedence to answering questions such as social life styles over an overwhelming number of social and other issues that are ailing our world, then I must be answering the wrong question. If anyone thinks that religions have no room in our societies and we should still throw Christians to the lions just for kicks then again I should remain silent. But if you think an independent investigation may open your eyes to a progressive way of thinking is worth to look into then let it be.

I don’t think anyone here is suggesting that we re-open the Coliseum. it’s just that religion (no matter what the flavor) isn’t a good fit for some people. I think it has a place in the world for people who need it, though. That’s just… not me.

Lets not ask what the world can do for us, ask what we can do for the world. Forgive me for side tracking.

@Beta_Orionis The positive aspects of faith you had mentioned is actually what faith is all about. allowing faith in all of our daily lives will always have the same positive outcome. If we all believe in not doing to others what is painful to be done to us. Then we are all faithful whether we like it or not.

@tinyfaery Please accept my condolences. I hope the pain of your loss will dissipate quickly.

@AstroChuck You are such a bad boy.

@tinyfaery I hope you can deal with this difficult time, and help your family to accept it in the way you do.

@nitemer I have no problem with open minded religious individuals. The problem I have with religious faith is when it produces people that do not practice the same positive aspects of faith that you commend, the golden rule, positive outlooks, etc. but consider this life good only for recruiting more “faithful” individuals. I take issue with those who consider their belief, their “truth,” the only correct system and mode of operation, or when it’s used by extremists as an excuse to mistreat and condemn others for their thoughts and actions.