Hillary Clinton's new colleague - How many people in the US know that Germany has appointed a homosexual Secretary of State and Vice Chancellor?

Is it being gay, or doing gay things, that is the crime in Saudi Arabia?

Iceland has a lesbian PM, but I don’t know what happens when she goes to Saudi Arabia. She hasn’t erased world homophobia either, though.

I think it’s similar to the way that Obama’s election hasn’t erased racism – it’s just one small step down that road. And there’s always a fringe of people that will hate hate hate, no matter what happens along this path. To them, it’s just a sign of the world becoming more and more wicked.

I think being gay is enough in Saudi Arabia. If a citizen over there came out of the closet making a declaration, he or she would be arrested even without having ever engaged in gay things. But maybe we’d have to ask an expert of Saudi Arabian law. I’m also unsure about the penalty. Maybe chopping of a hand or something like that.

I think many people think that Obama’s election is not just a small step, but actually a big step toward ending racism (meaning it would not be a major phenomenon anymore and a few fringe people wouldn’t really matter).

Westerwelle should avoid Saudi Arabia and let the press shine their light on it. A country that wants to be a mover in the modern world will have to explain and contend with the results of their archaic ways. My personal opinion is Saudi Arabia doesn’t give a damn about the rest of the world. The rest of the world will not leave Saudi Arabia alone because of oil and money made from oil. The rest of the world wants both.

I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, which is quite queer friendly, and I am amazed I had not heard about this in any of the local media.

The way Saudi Arabia is, though, you can either complain about their policies, or you can buy their oil. That’s how they can afford to pretend it’s still the 12th century.

@filmfann – Well, SF is a long way from Europe. But advocates in your area would have an interesting story to tell (btw, I disagree with almost all political views of Westerwelle, but I admire his courage for coming out of the closet in 2004).

@laureth – More like the 5th century B.C. The Islamic Golden Age or the Islamic Renaissance dated from the 9th to 13th centuries A.D. and it was a time of tolerance and scientific progress.

Point taken.

Does the sexual orientation of a politician ever really matter? If they have a messy sex life it can make great fodder for the press, but I suspect it doesn’t matter if they practice celibacy or monogamy.

If Westerwelle goes to Saudi Arabia, I should imagine there would be no crime if he remains celibate, doesn’t drink alcohol or bring in pictures of naked people.

Good for them? I don’t really care and don’t know why anyone else would. If the Saudis can’t get over themselves, fuck ‘em.

Does Saudi Arabia have some form of diplomatic immunity?

i dont know and i dont particularly care which way the world leaders swing :)...i think when visiting other countries political types get diplomatic immunity so even if the law prohibits certain things they can still get away with it…

Ha if the Saudis invite the secretary of state to visit them, and then arrest him for being gay, this would no doubt be a declaration of war. It’s been awhile since the germans gave someone a nice beating. But aside from that I think the Saudis are smart enough to realize that Germany is a major trading partner and if they discriminate against them in diplomacy and trade it will be at the loss of the Saudis, not the Germans. And yeah theres that whole diplomatic immunity thing.

Also, I think he should travel to Saudi Arabia, and I don’t think they will change their laws on account for him. I don’t know if we will see them change that law in our lifetime, Women still need to be allowed to drive in that country before we can think about gay rights

Two things. First, surely Herr Westerwelle must have some qualifications for his post that have nothing to do with his sexual orientation. Second, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. How many prosecutions for homosexuality have there been in Saudi Arabia? Notwithstanding its extreme conservatism, that country does have a rule of law, and homosexuality is difficult to prove, especially between consenting adults.
EDIT: That’s why anti-gay laws are so stupid. They don’t prevent anything, just cause the gay community to go underground – ask the epidemiologists about gays and HIV. Kindly note the new legislation being planned in Uganda. For those who prefer a “straight” source, here’s a report on research carried out by the BBC this year.

@bea2345 I think the problem is that they seem to work on a guilty until proved innocent kind of way, so difficult to prove becomes difficult to prove not

@RareDenver – but even in Saudi Arabia, and no doubt in Uganda, it is not possible to bring a criminal case without evidence, or at any rate it is not the usual practice. Here, in Trinidad, there have been no prosecutions for homosexuality that I can remember, although a few people have been jailed for sodomy (in practically all the cases, rape rather than sodomy should have been the charges).

@bea2345 well I’m mainly talking about the cases I’ve read about recently, they usually involve a Saudi guy that married a British woman, they moved to Saudi, had kids, he accused her of adultery with no evidence, she gets 10 years, he gets custody of the kids.

It just seems that the accusers, so long as it sends the right message, get the benefit of the doubt. Did you see the sentences those people got for making that TV show that discussed sex outside of marriage?

Evidence doesn’t have to be very real, or very strong, sometimes.

Information about homosexuality and Saudi Arabia.

I did not know. Maybe that is a good sign? Maybe that means the persons sexuality is irrelevant. Hopefully it will be a non-issue even in Arab countries. They seem to treat females in office with respect and take them seriously, even if in their own countries womans rights are lacking.

It’s great, @matt!

Side: Israel finally has a MK (Member of Knesset (Parliament) who is openly gay. It will take another generation or two – or maybe Peace – but someday there will be a gay president and/or prime minister, too. The more the merrier, so to speak.

ZEN OUT

I did not know that. Cool!

@ratboy – I think so, yes.

@bea2345 – Yes, of course. Like others, I don’t care about the sexual orientation of politicians. What matters is how they perform. However, knowing about this might help end discrimination. Gay right group could use the story and tell people who are still doubtful.

And yes, there are many arrests in Saudi Arabia. Here’s just one example (June 17, 2009):

– 71 arrested in Riyadh according to al-Quds al-Arabi report
– “Several residents are reported to have notified police about people who were doing things that did ‘not conform’ with Islamic sharia law.”
– homosexuality “treated as serious crimes”
– Saudi Arabia “insists that it always acts in accordance with Sunni Islamic law”
— “when the government feels that homosexuals are challenging state authority, the maximum punishment for the act is public execution”
— “Normally, however, the authorities impose other punishments such as fines, imprisonment, and whipping”

http://www.realcourage.org/2009/06/saudi-homosexual-arrests/

So maybe Westerwelle could get away with a whipping if immunity doesn’t protect him.

See also @laureth‘s link.

Btw, @mattbrowne as you prob. know: in Iran there are no homosexuals. It simply does not exist (according to Achmendinijad – fuck how you spell it.)

@Zen_Again – this may be Ahmadinejad’s way of dealing with a problem that just will not go away. @mattbrowne – It does seem that the Islamic world is grappling with pretty much the same things as the rest of us: see this report. From pretending that there is no AIDS, no prostitution, “because we are Muslims,” there is a growing understanding that some things won’t stay in the closet. Not that I discount the reports of wholesale arrests, etc., it is just that a lot of non normative behaviour gets overlooked in many societies. As here in the West Indies too: fancy meeting a person you think is Willy’s sister and in fact it is Willy himself.

And this is important… why?

@Rude_Bear – homophobia is alive and well in the West Indies. Yet transvestism (yes, I know it is a different condition, but try explaining that to homophobes) is extremely common, and even tolerated in Trinidad (less so in Tobago). We tolerate a lot of oddities, partly, I think, because stress levels are so high.

@bea2345 I imagine then, that this would be his’/her problem, or the Governments… regardless, the individual in question must be qualified for the job despite (or perhaps because) of his/her sexual orientation.

Saudi Arabia will not change it’s laws. They are not that kind of laws. Saudi Arabia I an Wahabbi/State partnership with blood on the hands of each of the partners. Neither side has the power or desire to change those laws. If she goes there it would be very bad.

Why do people care who a person that they personally will never have sex with has sex with?

His going there might be seen as an act of war by the Saudis.

Good question, Walter. Good to see you again !

We are probably underestimating the sophistication of the Saudi rulers and elite. Anyway, it is unlikely, should he visit that country, that Westerwelle will actually bring his partner along.

@bea2345 – Some princes are very smart and educated. They prefer a modern Saudi Arabia. They want women who drive cars. But there’s little they can do against their religious rulers.