Social Question

Snarp's avatar

Would you support a New World Order?

Asked by Snarp (11272points) January 5th, 2010

Seems like I’ve run into a non-zero number of people on Fluther who believe in one form or another of New World Order conspiracy. There are plenty more out there, some believe it is the work of the Rothschilds, others alien reptilian invaders, others just those darn “socialists that have taken over the Democrat Party”, others some combination of the above. Assuming that the reptilian aliens are not seeking to take over the planet, whether you believe in conspiracies or not, what would be so bad about a New World Order? One with less war, less hunger, less racism, more justice and more equality? Let’s also assume we’re not talking about a pie in the sky Utopian dream, but just a reasonable restructuring that will result in some improvement. I for one am for it. And I say the first step is to create a North American Union including the U.S., Canada, and Mexico akin to the European Union. Who’s with me?

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54 Answers

marinelife's avatar

Why does removing national boundaries result in the “better world” that you describe? You would need to convince me first that there truly is a benefit to having a world government.

You have not offered any evidence that a world government would result in those things you speculate that it will.

poisonedantidote's avatar

the old word order is no prized pig. i dont think i could support 9/11 mayan calendar reptilian 2012 alien ’‘wake up!’’ freemasons of doom, but some globalization would not hurt imo.

Snarp's avatar

@Marina I’m asking the question at a pretty high level here trying to start a discussion, not offering arguments to convince people. Yet. So you can just go with the assumption, or offer some reasons you are opposed to it or don’t think it will help if you want to. So what’s wrong with opening the borders, assuming something akin to the EU in which standards had to be equalized across countries, and economies stabilized first?

Sebulba's avatar

World government is not a new world order. North American Union is happening whether you like it or not. The roads are open. One world government has been the dream of the world elit since the start of the previous century

CyanoticWasp's avatar

Like always, the devil’s in the details.

mattbrowne's avatar

Yes, an EU-like North and Central American Union is a good first step.It requires more than 3 countries to make sense.

CyanoticWasp's avatar

@mattbrowne, okay, then I say we include Guatemala, so that I can finally hire a maid.

CMaz's avatar

Do we have a choice?

New World Order sounds good. An overpopulated world unifying as one.

Problem is it is conspiratous by nature. Such great unification produces great power.

Absolute power corrupts. Something that the world bank is showing, but we are too distracted to see.
Like I said, do we have a choice?

chelseababyy's avatar

Fuck no.
Who is stupid enough?

SquirrelEStuff's avatar

This type of order would not be run by “governments,” they will be run by corporations under the disguise of a government.

Like Arthur Jensen said in the 1976 movie, Network:
Arthur Jensen: [calmly] Am I getting through to you, Mr. Beale? You get up on your little twenty-one inch screen and howl about America and democracy. There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM, and ITT, and AT&T, and DuPont, Dow, Union Carbide, and Exxon. Those are the nations of the world today. What do you think the Russians talk about in their councils of state, Karl Marx? They get out their linear programming charts, statistical decision theories, minimax solutions, and compute the price-cost probabilities of their transactions and investments, just like we do. We no longer live in a world of nations and ideologies, Mr. Beale. The world is a college of corporations, inexorably determined by the immutable bylaws of business. The world is a business, Mr. Beale. It has been since man crawled out of the slime. And our children will live, Mr. Beale, to see that . . . perfect world . . . in which there’s no war or famine, oppression or brutality. One vast and ecumenical holding company, for whom all men will work to serve a common profit, in which all men will hold a share of stock. All necessities provided, all anxieties tranquilized, all boredom amused. And I have chosen you, Mr. Beale, to preach this evangel.

Snarp's avatar

@chris6137 If that’s the case then it wouldn’t really be a change, now would it? Seems to me that if corporations are really in control and nations have already ceded their sovereignty to the WTO, then the last thing those corporations would want would be any kind of democratically structured world body, whether it were the UN, the EU, or a North American Union. In fact, I’m pretty well convinced that every powerful conservative who opposes the UN and likes to talk about how we can’t give up our sovereignty to it is actually operating under this principle. For example, you never heard John Bolton say anything about the sovereignty we’ve surrendered to the WTO when he was railing against the UN did you?

Snarp's avatar

@mattbrowne Well, I was trying to start small, but I’d be quite content to extend it all the way to Panama for starters.

ucme's avatar

Only on a blue monday.

Sebulba's avatar

Since the North American Union plus world government is already happening what is the real question? You asked “would you support it?”
You should ask “what do you do about it?”

Snarp's avatar

@Sebulba If that were the case the question would still be “Do you support it?” Because I do, I’m not interested in what to do about it. But since I live in the real world where it is not happening, the question “what do you do about it?” is valid, assuming it means “how do we make it happen”.

Strauss's avatar

I echo – - Do I have a choice?

Sebulba's avatar

@Snarp You live in the real world or you think you do? Cause i would say you live in the media world. But let me explain my friend why i say it happens. I don’t live in the US so if i say something untrue tell me so. Do you know the existance of the international agreements like NAFTA,GAT and APEC? I see them as steping stones for the formation of NAM(North American Union). These three countries share the same “carbon tax” which goes to a common pocket. Mr Robert Paston also called “father of the NAU” testified before congress and pushed the idea of a common security perimeter that raises the national boundaries and merges the security agencies into one. For the past dacade the US military has been training along with Mexico’s and Canada’s military and has openly descussed using them inside the United States in case of disasters and to quell domestic unrest. There are already over 100000 non-US citizens serving in the US armed forces. And what is the physical infrustructure of the NAU? The NAFTA super highway! People’s land was confiscated in order to be built. Trans Texas Corridor? haha! thousands of miles of higways and railroads? Starts from the middle of Mexico right through Texas then Oklahoma and end in central Canada? A spanish company will collect tolls in Texas on this road for 50 years. Now don’t tell me this was a choice of the Texans! Also your government is proposing a North American Trial System which is on chapter 11 of the NAFTA agreement so the US supreme court law and constitution system will be rendered invalid automatically. And there are so much more that i am bored to write down…

mattbrowne's avatar

@CyanoticWasp – The Union will make Guatemala a richer country, like the EU did with countries like Greece, Spain and Portugal. Nowadays almost no one in Germany can afford a maid from Spain. The ones in Guatemala would eventually become more expensive as well. That’s the whole idea. But it also means that middle class Guatemalans will buy American high-tech products. Germany greatly benefits from the EU. Simple-minded people think jobs move away and we get poorer. The opposite is true. Germany exports are going through the roof. Everyone in Eastern Europe seems to want German cars and German dish washers. And that’s just for starters. The EU is a success model.

But building a North and Central American Union requires a lot of good diplomacy. And patience. And open mindedness.

Snarp's avatar

@Sebulba Of course I am aware of our trade agreements. Do you have any idea how long we have had non-US citizens in our armed forces? It’s nothing new. You see these agreements as stepping stones, that doesn’t mean that they are. While I’m sure some people would like them to be, the political reality is that it just is not going to happen any time in the near future. But hey, I sure hope you’re right!

But I swear I will cease to be the least bit polite to the next conspiracy buff that tells me I’m an ignorant media creation programmed to be a good boy.

Sebulba's avatar

ha @mattbrowne you’re so funny! Spanish maid haha! you don’t know what is going on with the EU and what is the role of this crap. I live in Greece. We only got poorer not richer since the form of the EU. EU makes our governments give more and more money that they get from us!
@Snarp i am not a conspiracy theorist and i don’t want to be called one. I say what i see. listen i have a video of president Bush telling the people that the agreement for the NAU is completed in 2006. not the NAFTA. I am talking about the NAU

Snarp's avatar

@Sebulba You have a video, do you? In English? I suppose you only have a hard copy since there’s no link? Do I have to buy it from some NWO website in order to see it?

Sebulba's avatar

Wait i’ll give you a link but it is a movie you got to download but i can give you the exact time so you won’t see the whole movie

Snarp's avatar

@Sebulba Don’t bother, I’m not going to sit through a bunch of propaganda just so I can figure out exactly how Bush has been taken out of context, misquoted, or creatively edited. Or he could have just opened his mouth, since he has a real problem with getting the word out that he actually means.

Snarp's avatar

For the rest of you (if there are any) I’ll stop sniping now. But I am really interested in just what people think is wrong about a North American Union or a New World Order.

Sebulba's avatar

you don’t even want to see it…you are so brainwashed. a natural thinking man would see it and judge after seeing it!

Snarp's avatar

@Sebulba There are only so many hours in the day, I choose to spend mine wisely. And I’m not the one who is brainwashed. I have now promised both to quit sniping and to cease to be polite to anyone calling me, effectively, brainwashed. Sorry, I promised to stop being polite first:

You don’t know me. You don’t know what brainwashing is. You don’t know jack squat about American politics, political science, or international relations. I will try to honor my other promise by leaving it at that. Please don’t make this any more personal than it already is.

Edit: I suppose this is my own fault for asking the question in the first place, and for being just a little snide in my comment. But seriously, since when is “you’ve just been brainwashed by the mainstream media” a sound argument or a defense for a lack of real evidence?

CyanoticWasp's avatar

@mattbrowne, you’re preaching to the choir. I’ve always favored fewer and fewer political barriers to trade, labor movement and investment. (It was a bad joke about a Guatemalan maid; I realized it even as I was sending it. I couldn’t afford servants, no matter where they’re from.)

For myself, I see no reason why a Mexican, Jamaican, Dominican or South American (to name just a few examples) shouldn’t come to the US legally and easily at any time, just as someone from Michigan can freely move to Texas, California, or Connecticut to live and work peacefully and productively. No papers, no visas, no special “travel documents” of any kind. Just do it. Or conversely, no reason why I shouldn’t be allowed to go to any of those places and live and work, either.

I think a lot of the heat that’s generated happens when people assume that “have nots” are emigrating to the US (to name the place I’m familiar with) “to take advantage of our welfare benefits”. (I know there’s some resentment over this in Germany, France and Britain, too, though I don’t try to stay current on that.) The solution to that is obvious, but unlikely, and that is “cut or eliminate welfare benefits across the board”, including Social Security, Medicare and Obamacare. Let it be stillborn.

How likely is that?

Sebulba's avatar

@Snarp the only reason i am not “personal messaging” you and i choose to post is to not make the rest of the people think i talk bullshit here and i quit. I told you that if you think i tell lies or something of what i say is untrue tell me. Watch the movie and tell me where the lies are. What the lies are! Prove me brainwashed by watching the movie and telling me “this and that and the other never happened”. People are not happy to be conspiracy theorists as you call them nor they make money out of it. Now if you really want to know how American citizens feel about North American Union watch the movie and you’ll see a lot of American and Canadian citizens state their opinions. I will accept i was wrong and i will apologise as long as you give me something besides “i have better things to do..”

CyanoticWasp's avatar

@Sebulba has excellent points. When we expect this “New World Order” to be ruled by a “World Class Government”, then it becomes “world-sized” long before it becomes “world-class”. Government is just too damned expensive these days, and growing faster than population and the economies that support them.

Snarp's avatar

@mattbrowne I expect the economic impacts on the United States will be significant if it isn’t handled properly, Simply opening the border with Mexico will create a strong downward pressure on wages in the U.S., and probably a lot of unemployment. But hopefully there are ways to minimize the impact, starting with uniform environmental protections and worker’s rights. And in time I believe the net impact will be positive.

Snarp's avatar

@Sebulba Actually, Alex Jones, who produced the video you want me to watch does make money out of his conspiracy fantasies. He makes lots of money and uses it to make more videos to convince people that his fantasies are reality. Consider your source. This guy thinks flouride is part of a NWO plot. Alex Jones is not a credible source, no matter how cleverly edited the film is.

Snarp's avatar

@CyanoticWasp I for one don’t think that a New World Order is coming any time soon, but I do think it is inevitable. I think that a North American Union should be set up similar to the EU, with a great deal of individual decisions and rights left to the member states. So should a world government.

Sebulba's avatar

Alex Jones is just one of my sources. I just gave you this link cause in this movie there is the video i told you about. enough is enough you don’t want to don’t watch it. i am not closed minded. i am willing to listem to you if you have something to say. your last 100 responses to me were nothing but challenging me without any statements of any kind. you just doubt i know anything true and i can tell you anything you don’t already know. That’s your unwise choice keep following it and you won’t get “better” even in 1000 years. this is typical close minded behavior. And for your information my father is a political scientist and from day one i learned all the aspects of political engineering. Nevertheless i always listened to anyone’s opinion and way of seeing things and discusted it and gained more and more knowledge and information. Thank you for your precious time! I feel like i’ve lost mine trying to spoon feed you the most obvious facts taking place inside your own country

Sebulba's avatar

and something last. inside the movie there are many many answers to your question by American citizens. You could save your time being here talking with a brainwashed Greek and get 100 answers in just half an hour

Rude_Bear's avatar

I support the Reptile Aliens.

Snarp's avatar

I have a three year old. Sometimes he will tell me something is not true or not going to happen that surely is. Sometimes I suddenly realize I’m actually arguing with him. Clearly there is no point to an argument like that.

mattbrowne's avatar

@Sebulba – I’ve got friends in Greece. They see things differently. They know that the EU can’t be blamed for certain internal problems. There are anti-EU people in Germany as well. In every country. I just don’t share their views. There will be anti American Union people in the US as well.

Sebulba's avatar

@Snarp clearly you continiung not telling me anything of any intelectual or communicational value for the no1000 response of yours. this is obviously the behaviour of a three years old
@mattbrowne it is natural that not all Greeks see the EU thing the same way i do as in the US not all of you see the NAU the same way! I am telling you the truth though…ask your friends about the economy falling apart in Greece and the corruption and the EU pressing us more and more with nothing but taxes! No help for education, no help for peace with Turkey, no help with health system, no real help for us the people my friend

Snarp's avatar

I have to apologize to everyone who might actually be reading this thread for getting caught up in an argument that hijacked the thread. I should not have made any of my 1000 responses. It won’t happen again.

lloydbird's avatar

Some people hope and suspect, that a benign and benevolent “New World Order” of a unified, self governing planet of all people/s, will come about as an unintended consequence of the malign and sinister attempt at forming a single, elitist, exploitative, pan-global, governing alliance – which appears to be taking place.
The current, interconnected, incumbents of controlling elites, who are the inheritors of millennia of collective guilt, caused by the shameful (and increasingly less secret) misdeeds of their predecessors and of those of their own doing, are frantically and worriedly working to put in place, ever more sophisticated means and infrastructures for exploiting, controlling, monitoring and safeguarding themselves from, the intellectually and educationally malnourished populations that they have carefully cultivated. But they are failing in their attempts to do so, thanks to the great advances in communication technologies. It is getting harder and harder to pull the wool over the eyes of a rapidly growing, global population of increasingly informed individuals. (especially about practical and workable alternatives to the present configuration) Individuals comprised of members of the former misinformed masses.
And so the inheritors and beneficiaries of the infrastructures now being constructed (with ill intent) are likely to be the informed masses of the future. (This will of course include the reformed and forgiven former elites)

After all – a wise population is a forgiving population, if understanding and forgiveness is what is needed to advance.

mattbrowne's avatar

@Sebulba – You live in Greece. Of course know much more about Greece than I do. I’m aware of the great many problems in your country. German news reports cover the topics from time to time. I also read a lot. Greece joined the EU in 1981. You were not even born. Believe me (West) Germany was already a very rich country in 1981. Compared to this level Greece was relatively poor in 1981.

But now in 2010 the distance between our two countries is much smaller. A lot of money has been invested in Greece since 1981. My point is, for more than 95% of all problems that Greece has got, you can’t blame the EU. Some politicians love to blame outsiders. It’s a popular tactics to avoid taking responsibility. I think citizens should not make the same mistake.

Snarp's avatar

@lloydbird I would argue that the controlling elites are quite happy with the status quo and have every reason to oppose any kind of real global governing body. They profit by war, they profit by encouraging states to compete against one another with tax breaks and lax environmental and labor laws, and they profit by having many small countries that cannot effectively govern and allow corruption to run rampant. Why on earth would they want a global body that worked anything like the EU? They don’t want environmental standards, they don’t want labor standards, the want exactly what they have now in most places. There’s always a chance that they would get a governing body that would be even better for them, but considering how good they have it now, it’s a very small chance. These people do not invest in small chances, they’ve got the WTO and that’s more than enough. The lack of a unified global governance structure is good for the elites, what possible motivation could they have to change that?

Dr_C's avatar

I’ll fully support it once I am declared supreme overlord. (And it will happen people.. just you wait)...

Dr_Dredd's avatar

I first discovered Star Trek when I was in junior high school. This was in the early 1980’s, and I remember living in fear that the Soviets would nuke us at any time. Therefore, the Star Trek future with one world government and Earth as part of a United Federation of Planets was extremely appealing. I’m not sure it will ever exist, but I still think it’s a good thing to hope for.

AstroChuck's avatar

@Sebulba- ”...ask your friends about the economy falling apart in Greece…”

Greece isn’t alone in the world. Everyone’s economy has been faltering. I wouldn’t blame that on the EU but on the sub-prime mortgage mess here in the US that sparked everything. .

Dr_Lawrence's avatar

Who can dispute the attractiveness of a world “with less war, less hunger, less racism, more justice and more equality.”

A world government is neither necessary nor sufficient to bring such goals about.

If within out own countries, citizens took back the control of the process of choosing their leaders and marginalized the powerful corrupting influences that pretty much control things now, the leaders we choose would have to work together to achieve the peoples goals. That is how out countries were set up to function.

As long as most citizens believe they have no influence, they will continue to be without influence in how their country runs and what their government goes allegedly in their name.

Get started immediately and bring your friends along and do not give up until you succeed, or
do nothing and just watch Fox Noise Channel.

mattbrowne's avatar

@AstroChuck – I agree! The recent great recession is a worldwide phenomenon.

lloydbird's avatar

@Snarp I agree with you when you say ” ..that the controlling elites are quite happy with the status quo..” and that ”..they have every reason to oppose any kind of real global governing body.” I also find it encouraging that you are able to list the ways in which such elites “profit” from the actions that they take (or don’t take with regards to “environmental” and “labor standards.”). I would argue that you are a good example of the informed individual, whose eyes it is not easy to pull the wool over. However, you are misreading what I have said if you think that I think that the controlling elites want a coming together of the masses. They, of course, want to maintain the current situation of divide and rule. No, my point is that – despite how things seem and what the elites would have happen…..the masses are coming together. And what’s more – in a good way for all.

SquirrelEStuff's avatar

Is it really just a coincidence that the great recession is a worldwide phenomenon since most countries use the IMF or World Bank to “oversee” their economies?

Snarp's avatar

@chris6137 It’s sort of generally accepted that national economies are more interconnected than they were in the past, but it’s only partly true. The great depression was global too, and there was no IMF and no World Bank. Any time there is a significant amount of trade across national borders, any significantly large recession in a major player in that trade will affect all the other players, just like it did 80 years ago.

TheRealist's avatar

To those of you in opposition of a new world order, wake up, it is already here. This planet can only support roughly 2.5 billion humans we are well above that happy neutral zone. We have all been blindfolded, deafeaned and generally desensitized to the cold realities and truths of the world yet one thing remains, everyone senses something is terribly wrong. That is because it is. The progress of the human race can no longer be measured by accomplishments of individual nations. The collaboration of world wide efforts will propel mankind to heights that can only be imagined. For those of you who think that this will solve social issues in a manner suiting to all, you are sorely mistaken. Equality for one is a lie. Look around you and you will see the lie for what it is. Some are leaders and some are followers, equality is a tag placed upon all for the happiness of the people. The sooner you realize this the longer you will survive. As far as economic dispersion of wealth, you have never had wealth in your whole life. Paper currency unfortunately is worth nothing, wealth is measured in resources such as land, raw resources, and manpower, which all know is in the hands of those in power and has been for centuries. If you thought you live in a free nation you are wrong, if it were so you would have the power to refuse to pay taxes or to refuse entry into the draft. But you do not. Your votes would all make a difference and your voices would be heard, but the electoral colleges make there selection of a leader and your leaders place emphasis on issues that dont really make a damn bit of difference, like gay marriage, stem cell research, and whether or not in god we trust is constitutional. Your constitution has been modified so heavily that it is a far cry from the original and your “freedoms” are taken away with each new act commited. Americans are a herd of dumb animals waiting to be slaughtered. There is no room for ignorance in the “New World Order” Those in power have been in power and will remain in power. The ignorant masses dont even know where to point the finger of blame. All I can say is look directly into the mirror when you do so because it is everyones fault that this has manifested into what it has. Nobody will organize because they fear the consequences and the leaders will only add to those fears by claiming ignorances and giving half truths. People do not fear the truth, they fear to suffer it. I no longer care what happens to mankind. When you are locked away in a FEMA concentration camp you wont either. Some of you wolves will try to diguise yourselves among the sheep and that is only to be expected. But fear those who are wolves diguised as shepherds. When the time comes I will be ready. Will you?

Just_Justine's avatar

well yeah, if your “world” only consists of the countries around yours.

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