How close is Christian dominionism (in the US) to fascism?

Jesus didn’t participate in politics, so why are they?

Good question @eponymoushipster.

@mattbrowne If you had asked this question, last week, I would have said that we were trending away from a christian domination of our country. Other than shrill outbursts during disasters and at tea bag parties, they have been out of the mainstream.

Now however, I agree with Kieth Olbermann’s assessment of the Supreme Court decision that Corporations have as much right as citizens to spend their money creating candidates, influencing elections, and creating law.

Olbermann posits that in the beginning for at least the next two election cycles, corporate interests will use the religious right to beat the country into submission. They are against universal health care (ir-religiously and illogically), against unions, against abortion, any taxes, the existing government, and for military spending and solutions for international problems. They will then be discarded when they are no longer useful

Since most of the loud dissenters are more interested in power than justice, they will prevail and probably be thanking god for their apparent ability to influence the country.

It will become a great surprise when their views antagonize corporations and they find themselves suddenly stamped down like the rest of us.

Is it any more like fascism that extremist Muslim countries that are governed by religion?

I don’t think the parallel to fascism is the most important aspect of interest about the movement.

I think the circumventing of separation of chirch and state is the most important aspect.

@Ron_C – I was really shocked about the Supreme Court decision. Now we can only hope that most ethical corporations will actually sponsor more liberal causes.

For some reason, the video will not play for me beyond Eric Owens introductory sentence but several years ago I had occasion to do some research on this whole movement and there are definitely disturbing aspects of it.

Unfortunately, the Wiki article doesn’t make a clear distinction between terms and leaves out mention of key writers currently influencing the fringe of the movement.

The ” wingnut contingent” as I prefer to term them describe themselves as Christian Reconstructionists and some of their writings are alarming indeed.

They advocate a return to the Mosaic Covenant system of laws and Gary North, in particular, is a strong proponent of the death penalty for things ranging from adultery to disobedient children. He also feels that stoning to death would be ideal since they are “plentiful and cheap”, his exact words, not mine. I kid you not.

When I first read about these extreme views attributed to this group, I thought they were being facetious. But it’s there in his own writings and those of R. J. Rushdoony so those who liken these views to Fascism aren’t that far off the mark.

I’m on iPhone now and ready to catch up on sleep, but later I’ll get on computer and post specific links for those interested.

But the main point I want to stress right now is that classifying the wingnut contingent as Dominionists does a great disservice to many Christian groups who don’t share these extreme viewpoints. And other conservative right wing groups may be annoying but certainly not this extreme.

In a very general sense, many Presbyterians, Orthodox Pres. and even some Baptists who have a Preterist view of Eschatology, could be put under the very broad umbrella of having a Dominion view of things ( D. James Kennedy would be one fairly well known example) yet are not holding to the extremist viewpoints of the Reconstructionists.

The Reconstructionists are the ones with the dangerous ideas but they don’t have enough traction to make a serious impact, IMHO, as even the right wingers would find these views unnecessarily loony.

Epo’s observation is indeed correct about what Jesus’ viewpoint on the issue was and it’s the one shared by the majority of Christians, even Dominionista.

Jesus clearly said “my Kingdom is not of this world”

Reconstructionists, otoh, feel that it is their job to create that kingdom here on earth by creating the US as a Theocracy.

This is the exact same ideal shared by Radical Islamic Extremists except they want everything subjected to Allah.

Same story, different protagonists. Equally dangerous idealogies and twisted Theology. Neither an accurate representation of the respective faiths from which they sprang.

So my basic take on your question is that there are extreme factions of Christianity with ideas that are as dangerous as Fascism but I think that calling them Dominionists or even conservative is very innacurate. The writers who do so haven’t studied it thoroughly enough to make the finer distinctions necessary to avoid maligning significant numbers of Christians who would be horrified to think that these wingnuts are representative of their own views.

More later but right now my eyelids are drooping.

Some dominoes.

@Marina it seems that all religions, when they are in charge practice some form of fascism. Even the Buddhists in Tibet had a kingdom with fascist rule.

Religion seems a fertile ground for authoritarian rule. After all when you have the Revealed Truth, how can anyone question your authority?

@mattbrowne hoping for charity from a corporation comes very close to a serf begging his feudal lord. I am afraid, however many Americans seem o.k. with that. It seems that for all the talk of freedom, we have lost our spirit.

In Germany dominionists (like scientology) would be observed by the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution. The secular system cannot be compromised.

@mattbrowne yes, Germans are famous for their “solutions”.

@eponymoushipster, why do you say Jesus didn’t participate in politics? He challenged the entire system. He snapped his fingers at the Sanhedrin for keeping the poor under their yoke and scamming the populace at large. They made up laws about purification that many people couldn’t keep, including the shepherds of the flocks owned by the Sanhedrin. Yep. And guess what these flocks were for? You had to buy one of the sheep once a year for sacrifice to have your sins “covered” or forgiven. He went around telling people that the priests were hypocrites, and they were. They also were in the pockets of Herod and the Romans. Rome occupied the country, but went through the local systems to keep order. Herod was pretty much a puppet, and so were Anas and Ciaphas. Their position was tenuous, and when the people had it in their heads that Jesus could lead them in a revolution and get them out from under the yoke of the Romans, steps had to be taken. Jesus was very aware of the political currents and involved himself to the extent of saying to his followers that the priesthood were full of shit, and that the people didn’t need them. Rome didn’t like the idea of a revolt and neither did the priesthood who had a vested interest in the status quo. Jesus’ death was a political assassination, engendered by Rome, the priesthood, and Herod, who of course couldn’t abide the idea of someone else calling himself “king of the Jews”.

Sorry @mattbrowne, I know this does not address your question.

@Trillian even us non-believers can admire the story of Jesus fighting the money changers and religious hierarchy. It is a wonder how today’s Christians side with their natural enemy and fight their natural allies.

@Ron_C – Because of Germany’s history any movement with fascist tendencies will ring a whole set of alarm bells.

Which solutions are Germans famous for?

I think Christiananity is just a good scape goat. Pretty much like Jews and Gypsies were in Germany. Religions are composed of a wide variety of people. Some good and some bad. Our government system is made up of mostly white people. So should we say that all whites are fascist? Most are old. So are all old people fascist
.
You can try to take religion out like the Soviet Union did and put everyone under the thumb but you see how that worked out in the long run.

You look into anything and any group and you can develop a conspiracy theory. Just yesterday. I went to the new walmart. They no longer carry the airfilter I use to buy or the carbon filters, or the butter sticks, or my favorite cosmetics. I turned to my daughter and told her, “I swear they found out what I wanted and they got rid of it all”, jokenly of course. And my daughter turned and said, You got it mom. Walmart has it out for you.
There is a conspiracy against you and only you

The same can be said about the government. Everytime they have to decide on a case, they have to look at the big picture before deciding. Yes several things come to play in that decision making process. But my point is that there is always going to be those who are not happy with the decision and who are going to see it as a conspiracy against them.

I discount the assertion as utter nonsence and propose a counter conspiracy theory that this is movement is crafted by the Muslims to discredit Christians and remove all Christian influence and power.

@Leo LMAO! That was awesome

Thank you Pandora :)

I’m not buying. No doubt there are some who would like it to happen but they are an incredible minority and more importantly an ineffective minority.

Meanwhile – while plays in which Christ is depicted as gay run in New York and depictions of Mary with elephant crap and crucifixes in urine are displayed in publicly funded galleries (I favor this by the way) – actual Muslims are killing people in the name of religion and Yale University is too cowed to publish the twelve cartoons critical of Mohammed in a book about those cartoons.

‘Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant’ and ‘The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America , and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.’ – Omar M. Ahmad founder of CAIR

If there is a viable threat of theocracy in America it isn’t from Christians. I know Christers are fun to hate – I’m not fond of them either. But they’re a threat to America? Please.

@mattbrowne it was an obvious fatuous reference to the “final solution”. I understand that there is a neo-Nazi movement there similar to the one in the U.S.

@Factotum I admit that I am uncomfortable with religious Muslim. Fundamentalist Christians and other religions make me very nervous. Just think of the mindset a person has to have that says, “I worship the one true god, everyone else is going to hell”.

Wait until the christian right learns how it was used buy our corporate leaders. I expect that they will be very upset but it will probably years after it become evident to them.

Fundamental type are great at denial and rationalization.

If Christian Dominionism becomes influential enough to gain control of the government and implement their goals, the rest of us will quickly get to see how their practices will differ from government by Islamic fundamentalists in Iran.

If the US constitution really guarantees freedom of religion as part of the 1st Amendment, the we will see how quickly those guarantees are undone by a government under these religious extremists.

Whether we call such a movement Fascist or not, they clearly represent a serious threat to human rights if they gain control of the reins of government. Would they immediately implement genocide against non-Christians or those not claiming “Born Again” status? Who can say?

@Ron_C – You wrote: “Germans are famous for their solutions”. Did you mean the Nazis are famous for their solutions? Jews in Germany had been German citizens as well (Einstein was a German Jew for example). Did they create their own suicide solution? What about the majority of Germans who didn’t vote for the Nazis in the final free elections on March 5, 1933 before the totalitarian system was fully established?

Are Americans famous for their lynching solutions of black people? Or is the Ku Klux Klan famous for its lynching solutions? I think there’s a difference.

Yes, sadly every western country in the 21st has a neo-Nazi movement.

@mattbrowne I get your point and don’t feel comfortable labeling entire populations.

I am distracted because I wonder what comes next now that the Supreme court gave corporations the same rights as people. I fully expect that we will become engaged in wars for profit and security restrictions will come into effect even worse than the onerous Patriot Act.

One of the people here said that corporations are made of people so why should I worry? The thing is that people follow leaders, corporations are based on a fascist model of top down management. Germany was a good example of what happens when the entire population is cowered into obedience.

Christianity is based on a hierarchy of unquestionable leaders. It is the perfect vehicle for a new American Fascist state.

@Ron_C – Christianity is based on a hierarchy of unquestionable leaders? I don’t think this a requirement by Jesus. People invented the hierarchy. People invented the idea of unquestionable leaders. But many Christians also invented alternatives. My church is liberal and very tolerant. People also invented the secular state with freedom of religion. No one forces anyone to stick with a totalitarian form of Christianity.

@mattbrowne I’ve heard that there are liberal and tolerant christian churches but they are probably rare. I an happy that you found one that suits you. My experience is with Catholic and Baptist churches. In them the priest or preacher explains the law and what you are supposed to think. The priest answers the bishop, the bishop (in catholic churches) answer to the cardinal. Leadership in the baptist churches is a little more ambiguous but still authoritarian.

Sure there are liberal branches of both churches but are either hanging on to the main religion with tenuous anchors or are considered heretics and their ties to the main body are severed.

I remember my dad telling me that the nuns were ALWAYS right. That is typical thinking with the religious, in my experience. That is also why I am an atheist.

The nuns were always right back in the day. They ran the schools and they had Street Cred From God. Some of them were kind of twisted. Most of them were pretty decent. This from what I have been told. Nuns are kind of an endangered species now.

For all that Catholic clergy may try to control their flock – though back when I was a church-goer they didn’t control so much as persuade – the flock tends to make up its own mind, sheep by sheep. Contraceptives are widely used by Catholics despite Papal writ.

@Ron_C – They are not rare. They just don’t make a lot of noise.

@mattbrowne they were rare in southern Virginia when we were shopping for religions. At the time we thought that the kids should have some sort of religious background. We finally gave up because all of the christian churches we visited seemed more interested in judgement or money that about morality.

We raised our kids a-religiously and they turned out excellent. It looks like you don’t need religion to raise good moral kids, you just have to set an example.

@Ron_C – There are more than 2 billion Christians worldwide. Do you think the US is the only country in the world that matters? Or southern Virginia for that matter? Besides, there are liberal and tolerant Christian churches in the US as well. The anti-religious movement sometimes falls prey to selective perception.

Of course kids can turn out okay without a religious upbringing.

@mattbrowne I know that there are Christians, worldwide. That didn’t do me any good because I was living in the Norfolk/Virginia Beach (the home of the Crazy Pat Robertson).
I am not anti-religious. I don’t want the religious to interfere with me either personally and don’t want their influence on the legal system. Things like the “blue laws” and drug policy are religiously based. Even the way we treat criminals has a religious basis. I want true separation between the church and state.

@Ron_C – Yes, I want true separation between the church and state too.

@mattbrowne good! we have come to an agreement.