Since there is something, can there ever be nothing?

Some schools of philosophy argue that there is no “we,” so everything is nothing.

Jean Paul Sartre has a philosophy called Nihilism maybe it’s Nietzsche…

”existential nihilism which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value. Moral nihilists assert that morality does not inherently exist, and that any established moral values are abstractly contrived. Nihilism can also take epistemological, metaphysical, or ontological forms, meaning respectively that in some aspect knowledge is not possible or that contrary to our belief, some aspect of reality does not exist as such.”

It is pure bullshit of course. But, to each his (her) own, I suppose.

I agree with you, @Ltryptophan…Once something exists, it can no longer become non-existent.

I’m not even sure that something exists…Maybe we are all a delusion

I’m wondering if you are considering only things of substance. There is light, wind, and emotions, for instance. We even have a name for nothingness. We call it a void. But void is emptiness, so do concepts apply? What about direction?

I guess that there could be nothing.

there is only lurve

there is someting is a bold statement, it has something of the matador waving a muleta about it…’¡Olé!’

Yes, we call it Zero…A term that apparently did not always exist in our vocabulary…

I believe there can be nothing within a Black Hole. It absorbs everything. Even light. What’s on the other side, if there is one, is anyone’s guess.

If the space-time of our universe collapses into a singularity (like in a black hole), all things and all information will be destroyed, so it will be as if nothing had ever existed.

It is, therefore, impossible to predict what would happen afterwards, but it is possible that… “nothing”.

Then again, you said “a time” when there is nothing. At the singularity, time does not exist in a meaningful way, so I can at least say that, at any “time”, time itself must exist, so the answer is no.

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Great question. I would think that true nothingness can not exist. Suppose there was an area of true nothingness. Then it would have to be surrounded by somethingness, which means that we could measure its presence in terms of space and time and then it would not really be nothing.

I think that there was absolute nothingness before the universe came into existence. It wouldn’t be at all possible to picture that; no space, no darkness, no light.
Unless you believe the universe is infinite, I can’t think of any other ways where nothingness can exist.

Nothing… It’s what rocks dream about.
Plato?

Now here is nowhere.

There used to be a television show about nothing.

Because there is something, we can imagine the existence of nothing.

When you die, you’ll know all about it.

“nothing” cannot “be”.
Only “something” can “be”, and therefore only something is.

Similarly, only Truth (Something) exists.
Untruth (Nothing) does not exist – but can be mistakenly thought to “be”.

So nothing, like an untruth, is an implicit construct of sentience’s interpretation of the relationships between actual somethings, or truths.

Like the Kanizsa Triangle

Of course, being existent within a consciousness means only that the idea of nothingness exists, but this analogy shows us how we can imagine and discuss nothingness and untruths (and the triangle) as actual “things.”

Hmmmm

</random_semi_relevant_thoughts>

@The_Idler Yes….”imagine”..

Nothing means no thing. Things are typically considered as physical objects. Non physical objects (such as thought) are not typically considered as things.

Therefor, thought is no thing.

Based on the single fact that there is something and there is no evidence that there was ever nothing, then it seems reasonable to speculate that there always will be something.

Where is the “thing” we call thought ?

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies
“Where is the ” thing” we call thought?”

In the arena of thought.

And as such, it can be considered to relate accurately, or not, to reality as is.

Therefore acquiring some actuality.

Perhaps…?

I never could understand the concept of nothingness. How can nothing be nothing if it’s recognized? How can something which is defined as not being anything even have a definition?

@lloydbird

Where is the arena of thought… and what are it’s dimensions?

My point being, that thought (or its arena) are not physical things. They are not objects located at a specific coordinate in space/time. Thoughts transcend space/time, and therefor, are not physical things. The term “nothing” is derived from “no thing”.

Now the dictionary is quite misleading about this word “thing”, mostly defining “thing” as an object or action that takes place in a specific space/time coordinate.

thing n
1. an inanimate object
2. an unnamed or unspecified object
3. something that occurs or something that is done
4. a thought or an utterance
5. a piece of information
6. the objective of an action
7. a matter of responsibility or concern
8. an act or deed
9. a person or animal, often spoken of affectionately
10. an article of clothing
11. a favorite activity or special interest (informal)
12. an object or right that can be possessed or owned
13. the fashion (informal)
14. a particularly strong feeling of attraction or repulsion (informal)
15. what is needed or desirable (informal)

npl things
1. personal items owned or carried
2. equipment for a particular activity
3. general matters or circumstances

Encarta® World English Dictionary © 1999 Microsoft Corporation

But you will notice #4 in particular, and that is where I disagree. It says: “a thought or an utterance”. This is misleading to say the least. For it suggests that thought and utterance are the same “things”. But they are not by any means.

Utterance is used to express a thought. Utterance refers to thought. But utterance is not the same as thought. The medium is not the message. The utterance is the medium, but it could have been smoke signals, sign language, color code, or written words. All of these mediums refer to the same thought. Therefor, thought is separate from the medium that expresses it. Utterance is physical. Thought is non-physical.

Notice definition #5: “a piece of information”
This is related to thought. Information does not have pieces. Information is immaterial, again, separate from the medium that expresses it. In fact, I propose that thought and information are synonymous, and neither one is to be considered a physical “thing”.

This is specifically why Norbert Weiner claimed:
“Information is information. Not energy and not matter. Any materialism that does not allow for this cannot survive in the present.”
Cybernetics, p147

Information (and thought) do not consist of energy and matter. Therefor, they are not physical “things”. Therefor, they are “no things”, and thus nothing at all.

Myself, I believe everything we experience is the nothing you speak of.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Even before I read your extensive and promising reply, I am excited..

Now, if you’ll excuse me…., I have some reading to do..!

Absolutely there can be nothing.
“Something” is a “Form” on the physical plane.
Something is nothing taking form.
Something is the opposite of Nothing at the balance point. Everything on physical plane is dual in nature.
Beyond physical plane is state of consciousness where existence has not taken place, where Form has not taken place. In this state there is no thing, but there is the life force for all existence in a formless state. A state of pure energy at the level of light that is formless and is in itself Nothingness.

There is no ‘real ’ time, only clock time, a contrivance of man.

Time ‘keeping’ devices devised to track the days.

The universe experiences itself as timeless, a timeless state of being.

Yes, there can be nothingness…one can stop their thoughts through conscious awareness/meditation….no thoughts, no-thing…just pure awareness looking,

So far although your answers were very thoughtful I don’t believe many of you particularly faced the question, with few exceptions. Maybe a definition would help. Nothing for me would be the absence of all things. Not only no me, but also no anything outside me. Simply no existence at all.

If you consider “things” as both material, and immaterial, then you must acknowledge the existence of an immaterial realm. Yet we cannot point to or locate an immaterial realm, nor the immaterial “things” such as thought and mind which must exist as such.

Our language breaks down when discussing these issues. And it’s because our words force us to conceive of these notions in the same context as our physical realm is described. We are thus tempted to errantly claim truth statements such as “A thought in a mind”, as if “mind” has an in or out. Or a big thought, as if thoughts have size, and some are bigger or smaller than others. We’re also tempted to errantly claim that hard drives hold information, or a photograph holds a memory. But they don’t, for information, thought, and memories are immaterial agents. Nothing material can hold that which is immaterial. Thought is not like water in a bucket. The brain does not hold thought or mind. The brain represents thought and mind. The medium is not the message. Thought and mind are not physical things. Thought and mind are nothing.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies
In reply to your last- but-one post :-

”Where is the the arena of thought..?”
You are speaking to me from within of it.
And I am there too.

”….and what are its dimensions?”
About the same as the manifest Universe.

@babaji

”Everything on physical plane is dual in nature.”
Truth has no opposite on the physical plane.
And yet it is here.

@Ltryptophan

”Nothing for me would mean the absence of all things.. . Simply no existence at all.”
Yes, for me too.
And not simply no thing.
No thing is what you find inside an empty box.
Nothing is completely different.

@lloydbird

This is difficult to explain, and more so to grasp.

The realm of thought, mind, and information does not have qualities of “within” or “without”. And as such, they are not confined by boundaries of the manifest Universe (made of energy/matter). Again, that’s why Norbert Weiner claims:
“Information is information. Not energy and not matter. Any materialism that does not allow for this cannot survive in the present”. Cybernetics, p147

Thought, mind, information… are not things of the physical universe. They are no-things.