Is there any hope for a civilized society as long as people insist on solving problems with physical violence?

Violence can solve some problems…

“There is such a thing as a man being too proud to fight; there is such a thing as a nation being so right that it does not need to convince others by force that it is right.”

-Woodrow Wilson

To answer your question, I don’t think we will ever be able to do away with “physical violence” completely. People have been dreaming of utopian societies for god knows how long.

Society seems to include some violence. It always has, and if it is a human society, there will be violence. However, the majority of humans do not use physical violence. Most individuals seem to be pacifist and not physically violent. So, yes, I think there is as much hope as there ever has been. Just don’t expect it to ever stop!

Yes, because civilized societies constrain the violent elements within them. To some extent. They have to. Or else.

Is there a utopia with hitting and slapping?

No. It is an unrealistic pipe dream. Some things simply have to be learned the hard way. A human child is NOT nice. Some things, like empathy for instance need to be taught. As a child is both emotionally and intellectually immature for many years – unlike the young of most other species – they have to guided, pushed, shaped – disciplined. You cannot talk a willful, deliberately misbehaving child into being good, in most cases it simply wont work. If there is no real downside to a child’s bad behaviour, what incentive does that child have to behave.

Also, as we are experiencing right now, all over the world, children raised without discipline do NOT get better better as they mature, they get better at willful indulgence, at forcing their will on weaker people. They enjoy violence “for the fun of it”. Look at the trend to attack a weaker person in a gang and video the assault for “brag” rights. Check youtube and some of the less controlled video sites. We are already seeing the tip of the iceberg, the results of an attempt to raise children without physical discipline. It will only get worse.

Do you think the world would be a better place if people were unable physically act out aggressive thoughts? Why not just mandate that everyone gain 300 pounds. That would solve world violence. Violence has its place. And frankly, it is less damaging to global health than reproduction is at this point.

Violent behavior is so basic that there’s almost always a very good reason that it’s being resorted to. Healthy people in healthy places don’t have the desire to hurt other people. Focus on creating healthy environments, not condemning the symptoms people show when living in them.

There is terrific hope. Without physical violence there would still be a Nazi Germany. The USA would be an impoverished British Colony. Etc.
It is not the presence of violence that threatens civilized society. It is the injudicious use of it that is the problem.

Funny thing about “civilized societies.”

The current is always measured by the future possibilities.

What I find amusing are the parents who shudder at the thought of smacking little Johnny – he must not experience physical pain, he must never be hurt. Then they encourage the hell out him to excel at contact sports.

@DarkScribe

I think the worry is more about the fact that physical pain came from the parent. A lot of kids lose all respect for the human behind the hand when they’re hit. They respect the hand, but lose the parent. Not that physical punishment shouldn’t be an option. It’s just it’s misused by so many idiot parents who can’t control themselves and come to rely on it out of incompetence.

@zophu They respect the hand, but lose the parent.

If you were right then every child up until the last decade or two must hate or at least have no respect for his or her parents. That is patently untrue. They had more respect then than now. It is hard to respect someone who you can disobey, outwit, or manipulate.

Spanking a child and war are dissimilar. The grouping of the two in the same theme is unhelpful.

@mammal Spanking a child and war are dissimilar.

Yes I have noticed the difference between soldiers and children . Troops don’t need fresh nappies (though neither seem to object to breasts).

@mammal At first I agreed with you, but now I can see some similarity.

What is it called when two parties have opposing opinions, and the stronger, more capable party uses violence to push its agenda against the unwilling weaker party?

Both ‘spanking a child’ and ‘war’ would answer this.

@DarkScribe It is hard to respect someone who you can disobey, outwit, or manipulate.

I can’t disagree with that. I should have worded what I said better. What I meant was that there are a lot of parents who aren’t competent enough to outwit even their children and that’s when the unhealthy, lazy physical punishment is used.

I bekieve the only way we will get rid of our violent behavior is when we evolve even more. Violence is primal and a very basic natural instict we have. I truly believe that if one day we were visited by other intelligent beings, well in order to get to earth from somewhere else in space would mean they would have to be 100 times more advanced than we are today. With that said, that far of an advanced civilization would not even know what violence is, they would have outgrown that a loooooong time ago.

Here I am again, insisting that a child can learn respect and obedience without ever once being hit, and many generations of child raising have proven this. Once society grows up enough to realize that people truly can resolve their differences without violence, the way will be open to achieve the greatness that is ours in the future that can be.

So you are looking for some sort of Utopian society to one day be born from our ashes?

Yarnlady your approach is simplistic. It will only work with children who are basically cooperative.

What do you suggest with a five year old – recently started school (Montessori) who tells his parents to “go screw themselves”, constantly screams “I hate you, you bitch” at his mother, throws and smashes things, refuses time out, refuses in fact all instruction? Won’t eat any food that is not junk food, urinates when and where he pleases, won’t brush his teeth – and much more. This with loving parent who have bought all the modern “idealistic” child raising books and are TRYING to follow the path that you insist on?

He eventually, in less than eight months, put his mother into a mental hospital. His parents are both well raised, caring, intelligent, loving people from loving families themselves, tertiary educated and with good careers – although his mother dropped hers to care for him. These people are not fools, but they were “brainwashed” into thinking that the only way to raise this child was the way that you advocate.

Tell me – where would you go in this situation – and it is an incredibly common situation. This is not theoretical – I became involved. (I am the child whisperer – really.)

@DarkScribe I worked as a foster care provider for several years. I have dealt with very difficult children. The situation you describe requires some very specific, professional intervention, and training for the parents as well. The child did not put his mother into a mental hospital. She and her doctor did that, as a result of not getting the help they needed. Hitting a special needs child such as the one you described is the worst thing to do. I have dealt with biters, hitters, kickers, spitters and all manner of unruly children.

Where did that child learn the words ‘screw’ and ‘bitch’? I no child in my family ever heard any such words until they were sent to public school. There is something very wrong with your claim. Who buys his food, such that he refused anything but junk food? No child in my care was ever offered junk food until they were at least six years old or more. I have spent an entire weekend in a room with a child who refused to urinate in his potty chair, with the floor covered by newspapers. When he finally realized that I meant what I said, he used the potty properly. I have restrained biters and kickers by wrapping my arms around them and sitting down on the floor until their fit was over.

You act as if I am some simple minded, gullible, wide-eyed idealist, and I assure you I am not. There are non-violent ways to deal with problem children, and I am appalled that you believe a child as damaged as the one have described should be hit.

@YARNLADY “You act as if I am some simple minded, gullible, wide-eyed idealist, and I assure you I’m not”

You call yourself Yarnlady and wear bunny ears. Give people some slack when they judge you like that. :)

Hitting has its places. Not alone as a simple punishment, but as a part of complex punishment. If a child is doing something that is unacceptable to a high degree, they should probably get hit; but only if they can then or later understand why what they were doing was so unacceptable, and why they got hit for doing it. Not all physical punishment ends in trauma. Competent parents can pull it off.

From a baby reaching for a hot stove, to a teenager touching someone inappropriately—from a slap on the hand, to a punch in the face; violence has it’s place even with loved ones, even with children.

@YARNLADY the child did not put his mother into a mental hospital. She and her doctor did that, as a result of not getting the help they needed.

Crap! His behaviour and refusal to modify it within the guidelines of people like you put her there.

Her idiotic Doctor echoed your mantra – be nice, talk to him, don’t smack, be patient. She ended up having a total breakdown, because with an IQ over 160 and all the love and determination in the world – she failed to turn a terrorist into a well behaved child in the manner that you and many clueless books say it not only can be, always will be done.

Talk to a permanently “tantrumming” five year old?

Where did that child learn the words ‘screw’ and ‘bitch’

From other kids at Montessori. When I questioned staff their attitude was “Ignore it – if you do it will go away, if you don’t it will get worse.” They ignored and it got worse.

Who buys his food, such that he refused anything but junk food?

His mother buys healthy food, he gets junk from the school as well as seeing other kids eat it. They serve PIZZA of all things.

_There is something very wrong with your claim. _

There is NOTHING wrong with my recounting of events. It is a totally accurate account.

You act as if I am some simple minded, gullible, wide-eyed idealist

That is the impression that you are giving me. I am talking about the real world, you seem to be in a cocooned imaginary world. LOOK around you at children – look at the teachers who are quitting. Look at how teen kids who are raised this way become.

I am appalled that you believe a child as damaged as the one have described should be hit.

After a couple – that is all it required – of swift whacks on the backside, that kid is now happy and well behaved. His face lights up when he sees me and coming to visit me is a reward.

You are an idealist – and we do not live in an idealistic world. Real answers for real problems are all that work.

@DarkScribe “Crap! His behaviour and refusal to modify it within the guidelines of people like you put her there.”

That is the crap. YL is correct. You put yourself in a nuthouse, not those you blame for your affliction(s). That is just a cop-out.

Smacking and impatience is what helps make terrorists, Love and understanding does not make terrorists.

YES, talk to a permanently “tantrumming” five year old?

The real world, as you call it, is completely fucked up because of outdated methods of child rearing such as you are suggesting.

Your child’s face lights up when he sees you because he is dreaming of the day he can kick your ass for abusing him.

@DarkScribe OK, I admit to being an idealist. Calling hitting smacking does not make it any better. Perhaps someone so quick to judge a lighthearted persona such as mine is not really that good at judging the ‘real’ world either. Again, I assure you I have dealt with little monsters, and helped them turn into successful, happy adults with zero hitting (or smacking or whatever you want to call it.)

During my foster care years, I helped many children who had severe behavioral issues, and I also presented parenting classes to help their parents learn no hitting techniques as well.

@davidbetterman The real world, as you call it, is completely fucked up because of outdated methods of child rearing such as you are suggesting.

How lacking in logic and thought can you be?

The world was not f***ed up when I was in my twenties and thirties – there were no street gangs, (in this country) no commonplace teenage violence, far less violent crime of all types, teachers were not leaving their careers behind in droves because they could no longer control their classes. The streets were safer, schools were turning out kids who were properly educated – not semi-literate in many cases as is happening now. They didn’t have to “dumb down” classes in order to have kids who refused to study graduate.

Your child’s face lights up when he sees you because he is dreaming of the day he can kick your ass for abusing him.

This is absolute garbage.

You are purely theoretical, your ideas have been in steadily increasing use for a couple of decades and they DON’T work. The failing education system and rising levels of violence echoes the increasing use of punishment-free child rearing. THEY WERE NOT A PROBLEM BEFORE!

I am not working from a purely theoretical point of view, I was raised in the manner that I am advocating – as were all of my relatives, friends at school and college and in the military when I served. NONE of my peers hated or resented our parents or teachers. We loved and respected them, accepted that on any occasion if we had been punished it was because we deserved it. If the punishment was excessive or unjust that might be different – but good parents (better than many who are failing now) weren’t unfair or excessive with regard to punishment.

@DarkScribe there were no street gangs, (in this country) no commonplace teenage violence, far less violent crime of all types, teachers were not leaving their careers behind in droves because they could no longer control their classes. The streets were safer, schools were turning out kids who were properly educated – not semi-literate in many cases as is happening now. They didn’t have to “dumb down” classes in order to have kids who refused to study graduate And pray tell, what country was that? It certainly wasn’t the U. S. which has had street gangs, troubled schools, and all the things you have listed here since the very first days of the new Republic.

@YARNLADY Australia

@DarkScribe Ah, the good old days of our memories..sigh..per wikipedia “The history of gangs in Australia goes back at least 100 years” And I doubt the Aboriginals would agree with your assessment.

I agree with @YARNLADY in re the aborigines (Australia’s Indigenous peoples), which were systematically murdered throughout the history of Australia getting shipped the dredges of England’s criminal justice system until why just a few years ago.

Yeah, Australia, the land where everyone is called a cunt regardless of their gender.

“The failing education system and rising levels of violence echoes the increasing use of punishment-free child rearing…”

That is just stuff and nonsense. The failure of our educational systems is due in no small part to the system actually wanting to graduate stupid students.

You don’t want your slaves to be too smart.

”The world was not f***ed up when I was in my twenties and thirties…”

When was that, like 1885?

The world has been plenty f***ed up since the 1900’s on up…(just to pick an arbitrary restore point, as it were). You think the Great depression was not a fucked up time? And how about the 60’s and Vietnam?

@YARNLADY If you wish to post a link – at least read it first. That link supports what I have said – it does not refute it. There have been no street gangs in Australia in modern times – until the gangs that I was noting. Reference to gangs in the eighteen hundreds is hardly relevant. References to motorcycle gangs is less relevant The issue is Street Gangs .The street gangs that I referred to are late comers – 1990’s . This is my complaint. They arrived after a decade or two of discipline-less schools and parenting recommendations.

@davidbetterman I agree with @YARNLADY in re the aborigines (Australia’s Indigenous peoples), which were systematically murdered throughout the history of Australia getting shipped the dredges of England’s criminal justice system until why just a few years ago.

You failed history I gather?

No, I did quite well in history. And I have some friends here who grew up in Australia, and with heavy sighs they admit that the white Australians have murdered most of the Aborigines.

I notice you didn’t respond to any of the other items I mentioned. I guess you agree with them.

Thanks.

this thread got depressing. . . :(

Yes. If you look at the violence rate per capita, the trend is positive. We are almost 7 billion people and mass media make it easy to spread violent news.

The rate will probably never be zero, so the police is needed in 2150 as well. But we might evolve beyond having wars.

@mattbrowne

The Police might be synonymous with The People that far in the future, but yeah, there will always be some instability—there has to be if there’s going to be change.

There can be no good without evil.

Yes, but the evil of the future might hopefully be mostly restricted to violent words and not physical violence.

@zophu – Not sure what you mean by that.

This is all BS. Of course it is possible to solve problems without resorting to physical violence. In fact I am so sick of people denying this obvious truth that the next time someone denies it I am going track them down, knock on their door and punch them in the head.

The question was whether there’s an overall trend away from resorting to physical violence. There will always be conflicts and problems, which is actually a good thing. But even the way we communicate might change and I quote:

“The Center for Nonviolent Communication is a global network of people and communities committed to living and teaching NVC to resolve conflict and meet the needs of all people. Have you ever wondered if there was a way all people could live in peace? Have you ever longed to reach a point of understanding with someone you care about when you find yourselves divided by disagreements or differences? Maybe you’ve longed to express what you really feel or what is important to you? Simply put, Nonviolent Communication (NVC) is a way of relating to ourselves and others, moment to moment, free of past reactions. By learning to identify your needs and express them powerfully, as well as to bring understanding to the needs of others, you can stay connected to what is alive in you and create a life that is more fulfilling.”

http://www.cnvc.org

@mattbrowne

shit, neither do I. I think I was drunk. ... I guess that in a more advanced society people would police themselves, is what I was trying to say I think. Not that it matters much.

@mattbrowne Very nice, thanks for the link.
@DarkScribe I laughed out loud, really.

The book by Marshall Rosenberg is worth reading!