Do you think one day democracy will fail entirely?

Democracy failed a long time ago, in Classical Greece.

Isn’t the USA considered a democracy?

Perhaps the Constitutional Monarchy would be considered the supreme form of government.

Yes, when the asteroid hits the planet.

Bacteria rule!

Democracy will have greater chance at longevity in the USA in about seven months.

If democracy did fail, what do you think will cause it?

It might be tried one day.

I think it will continue to deteriorate but I don’t know if it will fail completely. It’ll probably limp along on life support as long as governments at least try to keep it viable in their own mediocre and feeble ways.

It already has.

With all its failings
“Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried.”
~ Winston Churchill

Possibly in a hybrid form. If we can avoid the trend of corporate facism. A constitutional monarchy, as a “place keeper” might be useful for the cerimonial functions. But corporate intresets must be brought to heel. They must not be allowed the rights of citizens and their political “speech” must be sharply curtailed. We must interpret the First Amendment as to apply to individual citizens only.

We are reaching a historical turning point. Our current standard of living is not sustainable. The tendency is going to be to localize to cut down on freight costs. That will mean increasing power for local government and the end of global capitalism. That means a chance for democracy in the sense of the ancient Greeks, except that, unlike the Greeks, everyone will get a chance to participate. Global communication is relatively inexpensive in terms of energy, which will prevent us from going tribal.

Well okay, that is a bit of a fantasy, but it could happen.

Democracy has already failed quite a few times, It is just a fancy word for “mob rule” after all.

America is run actually as a Republic if that is what you are wondering, and even so, I do not think the country’s republic is doing to well from what I hear.

Hopefully next time people will have learned that just because the new leader has a different skin color than the other ones, does not mean that it changes the fact that they are still a human.

True democracy is unruly. Imagine being convicted of murder by a majority of townspeople without your being considered “innocent until proven guilty”. Democracies are good for many things like choosing dinner but discernment is not one of their strengths.

I see a great many things becoming nothing more than a distant memory. Democracy s one such idea. It had it’s heyday….about 2,500 years ago. Even then, senators were stabbing emperors, so what kind of hope should we have, realistically? How we are now, at least in the U.S., will pass soon enough. WHAT it passes into is supposedly up to us.
Bahahahaha!! Sorry, I just had to laugh. What a ludicrous, arrogant notion.

A democracy must always fail. When the non-working, non-taxpaying, yet voting, masses learn that they can vote gifts to themselves from the national treasury, the government must fail. We are on the cusp of this failure.

Ours is about to fail if we don’t find some way of holding politicians back from buying votes with taxpayer money.

@UScitizen
Yes like Chrysler back in the 1980’s. Goldman Sachs in 2008…

Big Pharma, Big Insurance, who just bought themselves a sweetheart deal from Max Baucus for about $2 million…

There’s no arguing, I don’t think, that democracy is inherently messy, noisy and inefficient. If what people ultimately want from their government is that it gets things accomplished quickly then I suggest they choose dictatorship over democracy. Mussolini made the trains run on time, as they say. If that’s what people want then they also need to accept the whole package that comes with Facism and dictatorships. Otherwise, we’re stuck with a process that is cumbersome and slow and, as mentioned, is inherently inefficient. Personally, I prefer that we at least try to make democracy work, with all it’s flaws.

Maybe things would be more Democratic if we got rid of the Electoral College and Gerrymandering.

what democracy?

Everything in life changes. So what would make anyone think democracy would survive. Only that is guaranteed to survive as long as man lives are roaches and greedy people. Everything else will change.

@plethora Why 7 months?

What has man ever made that is eternal? That said, the clear trend of history is toward ever freer forms of government. Perhaps our democratic republic will give way to pur democracy and someday evolve into libertarian transhumanism.

Last time I checked the US is a Republic and what democracy are you referring to exactly?

@Steve_A The US is a Democratic Republic. Democrats seem to like to call it a Democracy and Republicans a Republic. Both are only half right.

Goldman Sachs just bought themselves a good defense team for thier behavior the past decade.

“Democracy is a con game to give people the illusion of freedom.”

We came dangerously close to losing democracy thanks to Bush 43.

Yes, it’ll fail.
The real problem is people. Any system would work, if not for those in it.

@zophu Our freedom may be afr from perfect, but the people of the USA enjoy more real freedom than most of the world’s people, and far more than the people of any of the totalitarian states. The people of the true democratic republics in general enjoy far more freedom than those that live under dictators or monarchs. We may need to correct some things that are wrong with how democracy works here, but we aren’t likely to improve it if we fail to recognize what about it works well already.

Um… There are democracies in other parts of the world. India is the largest. France is the most democratic (if you look at how they vote on issues and their level of representation)

Perhaps what you mean is will democracy die in the US…. and I think it’s very close. Because of the system of campaigning and the money involved and then there is the lobbying system, it all reeks of fascism. Money and corporations being allowed to run the country rather than the people. The failure of the education system and the spoon feeding of ‘information’ to the mass public there… does not bode well. In order for a democracy to run well, the population needs to be educated. In the US, the supreme court has decided that they don’t have to tell the truth in a national news broadcast.

Somehow the words ‘Truth’ and ‘Justice’ have been separated from ‘The American Way’.

It will fail when most of the eligible voters are poorly educated, ignorant, and/or apathetic.

Look at the voter turnout here in the US compared to other places that hold free elections and you’ll get an idea of how that failure manifests.

@ETpro

Ha! This isn’t a contest between nations. This is the survival of Humanity. The support systems of this world are unstable because they are governed by increasingly desperate idealism, even in the states. The more desperate these governing forces become, the more oppressive they become. Increasing fascism justified by convenient disaster is already apparent and seems like it’s not going to stop before the system is overthrown; or until those that survive the inevitable fall rise from the ashes.

@zophu I’m glad I am not as pessimistic as you, but I can see the serious problems corporatism poses to our continued freedom too. Still, the relentless drive of history has been toward greater freedom, and I do not expect that to reverse course. It will be a rough ride at times, but the overall direction is clear and I believe positive.

@ETpro

Two words for you: Exponential Growth

I’m not questioning the will for freedom, that isn’t the point. It’s the fact that the system is growing increasingly unstable, meaning it will have to be taken under stricter and stricter control else it collapses. I’m talking about incompetence, concerning ideology and the implementation of technology. Nature dictates our impending doom, not “evil” governments and corporations.

No, I dont think it will fail….. it may well change & adapt to fit the world it exists in, but the basic principals will endure!

@JeffVader That is what I think too. @zophu we shall see. Let us both hope, for the sake of our descendants, that Jeff and I are right.

@ETpro Hell….. how can a space villain & a shellfish be wrong :)

@JeffVader To that I say no! :D

@JeffVader That’s right, always listen to talking (or typing) chambered nautiluses.

@ETpro Thats the rule I live my life by!

I love how the term Fascism is thrown around so loosely. A true Fascist state subjugates freedom of the press, religion, conscience, dissent and any and all ethnic or sexual “deviance” seen as questionable among it’s population. The military state and its actions are not of necessity Fascist by any stretch of the imagination or we would not be conversing here at all. If anything the repressive regimes closest to Fascism are mostly in the Mid East and Far East.

@zophu
What does this even mean?
Increasing fascism justified by convenient disaster
Are you proposing that natural disasters and the response of the military in supplying aid is somehow Fascism?

@SeventhSense I wasn’t defining Fascism on your term paper. I used the term loosely. Don’t be such a stickler. You can tell what I mean. Should I say increasing oppression justified by convenient disasters? Whatever, if you don’t know what I’m talking about, there’s no reason to explain myself further. I’m not qualified to convince you of anything like that.

No.

Totalitarian systems will fail one day.

@zophu
Fascism is not a a term to throw around loosely. It is one of, if not the most, violent and oppressive forms of government.
Should I say increasing oppression justified by convenient disasters?
Now what does that mean? It’s still not clear what you are driving at.

@SeventhSense

The term I should have used is “more fascistic,” I think. Anyway, like I said, I’m not qualified to explain why convenient disasters can, have been, and will be taken advantage of in non-humanitarian ways by major powers. I’m also not qualified to prove to you that disasters can, have been, and will be staged for those purposes.

Wars, natural disasters, economic collapses, etc., etc., etc.. It’s foolish to think that such decisive things aren’t being taken advantage of in any way possible. It’s how it’s always been. With each disaster, comes power-shifts. Imagine for a moment, the greatest power grab imaginable. How would it go about? When could it go about? Does society have any safeguards against it? If the sky seemed to fall around you, would you question who is to rule over you if they offered shelter?

@zophu
Are you qualified to give an example of what you are referring to?

@SeventhSense
I’m not referring to anything specific. Just disaster.

<——Holds hand to head

@SeventhSense your examples that mid-east and far-east countries hold examples of fascism seems flawed. Can you name countries you had in mind?

@SeventhSense

I told you to imagine the greatest power grab imaginable so that you might be able to see how large a disaster can be, that isn’t natural or necessary. There is no specific example. Understand?

@cazzie
Iran, China to name but two.

Um… nope and nope. Not fascism. Fanaticism, perhaps..but not fascism. The Chinese favour Marxism/Maoism and this is at odds with Fascism. So. the Chinese are Communists, but do embody elements of fascist behaviour, like disregard for smaller ethnic communities.

Iran is NOW a Theocracy. Meaning, the head of state is a representative of their God.

If you want to read about true fascist models, you can read about Spain in the days of Franco (I have friends who grew up under the days of Franco….) and Chilean history during the 70’s and 80’s.

Yes not strictly Fascism but my point was if anyone was Fascist in a loosely interpreted sense it would be such as these. Pulling someone from their home in the middle of the night and sending them to prison or execution for speaking out against the state comes about as close as you’ll find to Fascism in a “civilized” world. Likewise executing persons for violations against religious dogma ranks right up there.

@SeventhSense The offences you mention happen under several types of governing structures. The Federal Constitutional Monarchy of UAE for example. A woman tourist gets raped, she calls the police and gets put in jail for having sex out of wedlock. Same place,,, a couple gets robbed, they call the police and the police arrest them because they had had a bottle of wine in their hotel room.

Fascism is a very particular brand government. Not a catch all word for all stuff ‘bad’ that happens when authorities in power do horrible things. OK? I think words matter.

@cazzie
So you support my original premise.

@SeventhSense Oh yes… I think your explanation was good, but your examples were wrong, that’s all. I don’t like the term bandied around either. smile

You can hold the term with as much reverence as you want. But just because a government doesn’t call themselves fascist, just because they aren’t legally fascist, just because you don’t see censorship, sabotages, threats, etc….

My point is, when you have hundreds of millions of people, (in this country specifically,) and no important, massive or otherwise especially influential communication without going through established networks—we can’t know what’s being censored, who’s being threatened, who’s being manipulated, framed, conditioned or otherwise oppressed.

And that’s the point: in this age, we can’t know if we live in the modern equivalent of a fascist state or not based on what’s easy to see. Traditional fascism is obsolete, better to have people like you, cherishing “what freedom we have” while belittling those who think things may not be much more acceptable than living in Naziland. Which makes people a little crazy, if you haven’t noticed. It makes them easy to ignore even if they have good points to make. You are conditioned and otherwise encouraged to disregard the weak if they make you at all uncomfortable, (whether from bitter truths or just awkwardness,) even if they are made weak for the same reasons they have good points to make.

The king is the only one allowed to ride a horse until the automobile is invented, then he gets the only car and graciously allows his subjects to ride their animals. We have more freedom than people have ever had before, but while our “freedoms” increase gradually—the powers of those that control us increase exponentially. There is no ruling ourselves: we are cattle at the best of times, vermin at the worst of times. How long until the herds need culling at these best of times?

What’s a good term for that? It isn’t “democracy”

[And that’s my crazy rant of the morning.]

@zophu Oh, I agree the the US is no longer a ‘great’ democracy. The old fascists were very popular. There are STILL people who will defend Pinochet and General Franco. They didn’t call themselves Fascists either. The Republican Party in the US is still very popular too. The bad guys don’t always wear black hats. http://www.september11news.com/June25_BushCalgaryAirportWhiteHat.jpg

@zophu
The problem with crazy rants is they are even less effective at initiating change and may even be detrimental. If there is a behemoth at the wheel the best course of action is to insert oneself cleverly within the system and dismantle it from within. A frontal assault on the Incredible Hulk is never wise and rarely effective.

@SeventhSense Good advice, but it’s not a behemoth that’s our problem. It’s a disease in all of us. If the world’s powers were removed today, they would be quickly replaced by people just as corrupt. It’s a natural requirement for wanting to control so much. And it’s what the system generates and supports. To insert oneself into the system, cleverly or not, defeats the purpose. The idea is to exist outside of the corruption. It’s not a frontal assault, it’s an escape. One that I see no one trying to make. That’s why I rant.

Who says the behemoth at the wheel is without? As within so without….What else would be the source of “the disease” except human nature? It’s always an inside job. Drug dealers don’t make money because people don’t buy drugs. There is no stopping the world and getting off. Only sticking one’s head in the sand.

Well, have I failed in fucking with your . . . share of behemoth?