Social Question

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

Why shouldn't Israel just be "Arizonaed"?

Asked by Hypocrisy_Central (26829points) June 1st, 2010

¬¬Shouldn’t the world just Arizona Israel? Not buy anything manufactured in Israel, don’t buy anything form any company or business that does business in Israel? Or will Israel continue to get away with acts other nations would get punished for because Uncle Sam is Israel’s boot lackey? Maybe if those feckless, spineless amoebae up in Washington knew they stood a good chance of getting voted out unless they grow a pair and stop black check Israel’s terrorism maybe something might change.

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

73 Answers

dpworkin's avatar

Sooth from fluxion, teeth from factoid. That’s some mom and pop diplomacy you got going there for you, pal. No nuance, no substance, no geopolitical savvy. Has it stopped North Korea from establishing a nuclear arsenal and attacking the South Korean Navy on the high seas? Has it stopped the Myanmar junta from hijacking a democratic election for 22 years? Is it even a pimple on Ahmedinejad’s butt? Go read a book. And while you are there you might think about the role the only Middle Eastern democracy plays in our strategic plans.

ucme's avatar

The stars at night are big & bright
Deep in the heart of…..Tel Aviv?

Nah doesn’t have the same ring to it somehow.

jfos's avatar

I don’t think Israel should be “Arizonaed,” but I do think the US should make more of a statement than a mother walking hand-in-hand with her little militarized baby over to the neighbor’s house and saying, “We’re sorry about little Israel breaking your toys. He didn’t know what he was doing.”

prescottman2008's avatar

Hey! Arizona has done nothing wrong! Israel on the other hand, hmmm, well I guess the people they bussed in from all over the southwest this weekend to protest Arizona’s attempts to protect the peace and jobs and to enforce federal laws already on the books should be grateful that Arizona law enforcement or the Arizona National Guard didn’t react in the same way Israel did.

mattbrowne's avatar

Let’s wait for the outcome of an independent investigation first of what really happened on that ship.

gailcalled's avatar

Can any noun now be verbed? From here, Dc is down.

Theby's avatar

mattbrown, What independent investigation? Didn’t Obama say the jews should conduct the investigation? What a jerk he is. His tongue must be browner than cigarette tarred rancid old and heaving lungs!

shilolo's avatar

Perhaps an independent investigation like the one into the so-called Jenin massacre, which was never a massacre at all. Indeed, there were some clear cut manipulations by the Palestinians at the time.

Jack79's avatar

According to NATO’s own policy, Israel should be bombed to oblivion. Use nuclear bombs just to make sure. Imagine if the Soviet Union had done something like that back in the Cold War days (or anyone else did that today for that matter). Imagine Cuba killing 10 Israeli civilians for protesting its policy of genocide (which Cuba doesn’t even have, so it’s hard to imagine the senario).

But of course NATO is controlled by the US and not Turkey, and Israel is an ally which, for whatever reason, the US would not like to attack openly. It’s a political choice, and has been standard policy for decades. The effort to justify it based on some sort of moral code is just a load of crap that nobody will buy anymore.

Note: I’m not saying the US should bomb Israel, unless of course they want the world to become fair all of a sudden. I’m saying the US should look out for their own interest, just like everybody else is doing. But spare me the bullshit about the poor little Jews that got gassed 50 years ago and therefore have the right to kill anybody, anywhere, anytime.

shilolo's avatar

@Jack79

What NATO policy, precisely?
What genocide, precisely (unless of course you are referring to the Turkish genocide against the Armenians…)?
Back to our old anti-Semitic ways are we?

dpworkin's avatar

@shilolo I considered responding to @Jack79 but there are people who tread close to the line, and people who step over the line. I believe @Jack79 steps a sufficient distance over the line so as to be irredeemable.

zenele's avatar

I like how @Theby simply calls Israelis “the jews” and lower case.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Jack79 ”But of course NATO is controlled by the US and not Turkey, and Israel is an ally which, for whatever reason, the US would not like to attack openly.” And the US is Israel’s boot lackey so they surely will allow Israel to get away with what others would certainly get the hammer dropped on them for.

@shilolo ”Back to our old anti-Semitic ways are we?” Why is it when Israel does something wrong and people point it out it is anti-Semitic? That would be like saying when a bunch of Crips from LA beat somebody’s ass and take their iPod and Air Jordans it is bigotry to say so because they were Black.

shilolo's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Oh, I don’t know, maybe this? “spare me the bullshit about the poor little Jews that got gassed 50 years ago” as well as hundreds of similar quips by him in the past (search for yourself). This is nothing new.

mattbrowne's avatar

I wonder who the jerk is here.

mattbrowne's avatar

@zenele – Many people don’t realize that Israel is a country and that there are citizens who are Jews, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Agnostics, Atheists, Groupies, Trekkies, you name it.

mattbrowne's avatar

@dpworkin – Great answer !

Jack79's avatar

Once again, I’ve rewritten this post several times. And deleted it. Why bother? If people are too stupid to see the obvious, I’m wasting my time.

For some weird reason, 6 billion people around the world seem to agree with me, and not Shilolo. We must all be Nazis then.

zenele's avatar

@Jack79 Rarely do I take it personally when someone attcks Israel. Rarely do I even take it persoanlly when I see anti-semitic slurs. In your case, I’ll make an exception. I can’t believe the same person I’ve been talking to fopr over a year would say things like that. They say the higher the expectation – the greater the disappointment.

My family was decimated in WW2.

I am constantly under rocket fire from a hamas terrorist led little piece of shit of a land Gaza.

I have been through 3 wars, and am sending my children off to war.

I want peace, as do all Israelis. I am willing to give back all and every inch of land – all the way back to the 67 border – and have Jerusalem as the capital of both states.

I sing the words hope and peace every time I sing our national anthem.

I pay taxes which send aid to Gaza – despite all the arabs and their wealth in the region and the world – where are they?

And you talk about the 6 million Jews gassed – and joke about it? You joke about the US bombing Israel and then all would be right with the world?

I am physically revolted by you. At the physical level.

I wish there was a way to block you and your ilk – just so I wouldn’ have to share the same space with you – albeit virtual.

I have actually been hurt by you.

Jack79's avatar

But it’s fine when Palestinians get gassed, right? Or Iraqis? Or Afghanis?

My point is not that Hamas are saints. Far from it. But the USA has been using double standards. The rest of the world hasn’t. That’s why most people around the world were secretly cheering for Al Quaida when the Twin Towers went down. That’s one of the posts I deleted above (an explanation about why the rest of the world did not mourn what in America was seen as the greatest tragedy, with thousands of people dead in a few minutes).

Of all people, Jews should be even more careful when it comes to respecting human life and rights. Instead, Israel has trivialised the Holocaust by trying to exaggerate the numbers in order to win political and financial support over the past 70 years. This is one of the many points that Shilolo is purposefully misinterpreting. Not that there was no Holocaust, but that the real Holocaust has been hijacked by people who had nothing to do with it.

And another point: if you truly believe that you are superior to other human being because of your race, how are you any different from your former arch-enemy?

If you truly believe that Germans (who were not even born back in the 30s) should pay you compensation for what their ancestors did to your ancestors, then are you not responsible, by the same logic, for anything your own ancestors did before that? Do you really want to make this a race issue and make rules based on collective guilt, collective innocence, collective pride and purity of blood?

I never said “zanele killed 10 Turkish civilians”. And trust me, I am just as disgusted by Turkish policy and the Armenian genocide as anyone. But the people who did kill those civilians have used their Jewishness as an alibi. Israel is allowed to go unpunished because of what some Austrian did to some Poles 70 years ago. Funny thing is, if Poland went around attacking Lithuania or Slovakia, nobody would remember that the poor Poles were killed by Hitler, and therefore have the right to do the same.

This is my point.

Not that Israelis should be gassed. But that Afghans shouldn’t. And that Turks, regardless of their country’s foreign policy in Cyprus, should also be allowed to state their opinion without getting shot.

Sorry if that hurts you zanele.

ps yes I did give you a GA, because it was a GA, regardless of whether it was misdirected

shilolo's avatar

But it’s fine when Palestinians get gassed, right? Or Iraqis? Or Afghanis?

Where? When? How? You have no evidence of this, just your own delusions.

Israel has trivialised the Holocaust by trying to exaggerate the numbers in order to win political and financial support over the past 70 years.

Moving into the realm of the Holocaust deniers. Why am I not surprised.

if you truly believe that you are superior to other human being because of your race, how are you any different from your former arch-enemy?

Who said anything about this? Average Israelis and American Jews are secular, but still don’t want to be discriminated against or murdered simply for being Jewish.

Your overall view of history is so distorted by your obvious anti-Semitism and racism that it is impossible to have a normal discussion with you. Your “jokes” about being gassed are also not appreciated. If you had any insight, you would realize how insensitive this is, but why should anyone expect that from you.

JLeslie's avatar

@Jack79 Wow. Almost every Jew I know is willing to listen and understand the perspective of the Palestinians. EVERY Jew I know understands the history in the middle east is complicated. EVERY Jew I know does not feel superior to anyone. EVERY Jew I know values life, even the lives of their supposed enemies. EVERY Jew I know want peace. EVERY Jew I know is empathetic with the minority, how can they not be, they are such a small minority in the world. Most Jews I know want to give the Palestinians their own country.

I can understand questioning why Germany, Poland, Austria, did not have to give up their land to the Jews, when they committed the crimes. If you don’t agree wih the UN’s decision to give Israel to the Jews, then you should question the decision of the UN, but not hate the Jews for establishing Israel, it was given to them legitmatey at the time. Hell, you can hate the Germans for doing such hanus acts it inspired the world to have sympathy for the Jewish people. Although, it is worth mentioning here that Many Jews were already living and buying Israel land, They owned much of Israel from what I understand even before the UN decisions.

You speak of blowing up Israel, Jews I know don’t hope for their enemies to be blown to smitherines, they hope for peace.

You say Jews believe they can go anywhere and kill anyone any time. Where the hell is that going on? Jews are blowing up all sorts of different people all over the world?

Maybe if you spent time arguing the Arab/Palestinian side, their point of view, you would inspire discussion. But, rather, you choose to attack Israelis and Jews as if they have no legitimacy.

Do you really believe if Israel is bombed to oblivian that the Middle East will be peaceful and prosperous? You don’t think any of the horrid living conditions, and in my opinion crimes against women and children have anything to do with the Muslims themselves? Of course I do not mean to group all Arabs, or all Muslims, or all Muslim countries into one pot, they are all different, and I know many wonderful people who are Muslim and who are Arab. You think the terrorist acts around the world commited by fanatic Muslims will stop if Israel is gone? Give me a break.

zenele's avatar

All I have to say is that what one takes for granted, and forgets sometimes, is that a Jew, an Israeli, is willing to defend the right of a racist asshole to say whatever he wants.

Let’s see him say those things to an Arab – anywhere.

Pick an Arab country – and go kiss in the street, let alone swear at theor leaders or mock their government. You won’t last a minute.

I don’t see any Arabs here – ever – and I call on them to have a discussion about the situation. Other than blind haterd towards Jews and Israel – I don’t hear one word of peace coming from any of their countries. But then, there aren’t any Arab democracies.

The sad thing in all this is: I don’t think they’d know what to do if they got their own land and signed a peace accord. They are so used to killing, shelling and blowing themselves up. It’s hard to settle down, work and pay taxes. I know: this coubtry was a desert 60 years ago. Now it’s part of the OECD and called the most stable economy in the world, despite the ongoing global recession. And despite Arab terrorism.

Theby's avatar

@Jack79 I think you are the only person on this thread who isn’t being cuddly with the jews. @zenele Let’s not forget the other peoples who experienced the holocaust. The Romani, homosexuals, Muslims, etc. The holocaust was a disgusting part of history. Jews being herded like cattle in enclaves, killed indiscrimately…. Just a minute, that’s happening at the moment in Palestine. I call it slo-mo genocide. I have good friends whose whole families have been wiped out by israelis. No, they weren’t mentioned in the media because the media is run by jews. Need I go on?

JLeslie's avatar

@Theby Do you think the Palestinians will ever be willing to make a peace treaty? Have their own country and the Jews still maintain one also? Or, is it all or none for the Palestinians? Both groups feel the have a right to the land, and both groups have some pretty good arguments supporting why.

Also, I wonder if you are American? How do you reconcile the Europeans creating the US? Europeans came and occupied the land, the French felt able to sell a huge chunk to the already established US, better known as the Louisana purchase. I am not supportive of Israel because of some zionist, we have been there for 5,000 years talk, I support it because the UN had the right at the time to give the Jews the land, similar to what has been done in other countries throughout time. If you don’t think it is legitamate then maybe we in America should give all of our land back to the Native Americans.

We know others died in holocaust, millions of others. The Holocaust killed off 30% of our small population. We were around 18 million worldwide, and they killed 6 million. We are just over 14 million now, less than one quarter of one percent of the worlds population. The Holocaust was devastating to our population statistically, not that every life that was taken by the hands of the Nazi’s does not count. Every life counts.

zenele's avatar

@JLeslie When people like Theby say things like that – I don’t bother. He’s just one of millions of anti-semites who, for me, there is no reasoning with.

dpworkin's avatar

@Theby “The media is (sic) run by Jews” ... That’s what you’ve got? Seriously? Well, we needn’t pay further attention to you, that’s for sure.

mattbrowne's avatar

Anti-semitism is one of the oldest forms of malicious intolerance and it violates the precepts of human dignity. It is one of the most ancient forms of hatred in history. I find it disgusting that there are actually users posting anti-semitic remarks here on Fluther.

I deeply care about Israel. It makes me sick to hear about Hamas criminals shooting rockets into residential areas killing innocent children. Many times I have posted comments explaining why Hamas and all the other terrorist groups are so dangerous to all of us.

Right now I don’t think the Israeli government is doing the right thing to deal with the aid ship diplomatic situation. Friends can disagree and still respect each other.

I think we need to discuss solutions instead of reiterating known problems. One solution is that Israeli voters elect a more moderate and more creative government, at least one that doesn’t appoint a known racist to become their foreign minister. Another solution is not building one single house outside the territory of Israel as recognized by the UN. We all read that @zenele is in support of this which would include giving up borders drawn more than 2000 years ago, because this leads nowhere. These ancient people actually displaced other ancient people whose descendant could also make a claim to get their ancient territory back, which is ridiculous of course.

Theby's avatar

@JLeslie I think the problem with the Israelis is that they were “given” a certain amount of Palestinian land and over the past 60 or so years the amount of land has increased so much that the Palestinians are now outsiders in their own country. Please see the link below.
http://www.sauer-thompson.com/archives/opinion/2010/03/the-tensions-be.php
You are most probably thinking that the jews are the rightful owners of the land, that is what is stated in the Bible. It is stated in the Holy Qur’an that the Muslims are the rightful owners. It would be wonderful if jews and Muslims could live in peace but that is unlikely to happen because of the above-stated fact: jews are systematically and greedily snatching more land every year. They think they are above the law by placing Palestinians into enclaves and denying them medical treatment amid a myriad of other anti-humanitarian offenses. They have the backing of North America so they break the laws with impunity. No Palestinian believes Israel was ever “entitled” to their land. Look at how many Palestinians have now become refugees in neighbouring countries. I believe the Israelis will not stop until every Palestinian is either killed or ousted from their land. I am not American. I am New Zealander/Australian. There has been a lot of “land rights” cases both in Australia and New Zealand. The Aboriginals and Maoris have both been granted these rights and I fully agree that they are entitled to them (although I did not agree with the Maori decision not to let commercial planes fly over their land.) I do think that native Americans should be granted some rights if they have not been granted already. I do not agree with what Israel is doing but that does not make me anti-semitic. A lot of people are afraid to air their views on Israel because everyone starts screaming, “anti-semite!” And I do agree with you…...... every life counts.

Theby's avatar

@dpworkin I don’t think you should be speaking for others on this thread.

Theby's avatar

@mattbrowne So, I’m an anti-semite because I do not like what Israel is doing? Give me strength! You think that everyone who agrees with me is an anti-semite? As I stated in my comment to @JLeslie, “A lot of people are afraid to air their views on Israel because everyone starts screaming, “anti-semite!” What shall we call the people who disagree with what Palestine (you obviously being one of them) is doing? A lot of ABers disagree with what Palestine is doing but do we hear them being accused? “What’s good enough for the goose is good enough for the gander,” so the saying goes. One hears all about the attacks from Hamas into Israel, it is on the news all of the time. How often do we hear about the (far worse) attacks from Israel into Palestine? One only has to look on YouTube (if one gets in quick before it is deleted) to see how bad it is for the Palestinians. One cannot compare Israeli modern weaponry and state-of-the-art technology (thanks to US) against the (mostly) homemade rockets fired into Israel. You think the Israelis don’t fire into civilian areas? You believe Israel wants peace? The Isaelis are the biggest terrorist group on earth. They ignore UN rules and think they are a law unto themselves. No wonder the Palestinians are frustrated with so much injustice. For goodness’ sake, wake up and stop feeding off the US/Israel propaganda machine. Just have a look at the link I posted to @JLeslie and see for yourself the sly greed which is forcing Palestinians to rightfully defend themselves. As for the flotilla debacle, Israel attacked in international waters. Imagine if the attackers had been Palestinian and the flotilla full of jews. I am sure the penalty would have been fast and deadly and not just a slap on the wrist. And you call me anti-semetic! You are obviously anti-Muslim.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Theby ”¬ I do not agree with what Israel is doing but that does not make me anti-semitic [sic]. A lot of people are afraid to air their views on Israel because everyone starts screaming, “anti-semite!” [sic]” That does seem to be the flavor of this thread, people seem to want to ignore abuses if it is against those they don’t like. Dare I say that sort of thinking left many unsolved people hanging from trees in the South once upon a time.

In spite of what one thinks about the PLO, Hamas, or anything like that to go Neanderthal on a flotilla with humanitarian aid is still inexcusable. Even if they did not care to see starving kids get food or medicine it could have been handled way calmer and better than what it did. They could have let them dock but not off load, they could have blocked the mouth of the harbor, they just wanted to show a heavy hand of intimidations to tell all others “leave now or I will make you an offa’ you can’t refus’”. ” They have the backing of North America so they break the laws with impunity.” They will do this because Uncle Sam is their boot lackey. To say that was OK is to say that the atrocities in Darfur and the crimes of the Janjaweed are just business as usual the sitting government gives its blessing so why should anyone else say a thing about it?

I wonder if groups in Kuwait attacked Iranian patrol boats and abducted some of the patrol men and when not returned when asked Iran went to blast Kuwait back into the Stone Age like Israel did Lebanon, or would Uncle Sam had sat with a thumb up his a$$ and let the Iranians “handle their business” even if it meant bombing innocent civilians or would he have gotten into mix? Of course I can bet my donuts to anyone dollars how that would have went can we say <cough> double standard <cough>?

Jack79's avatar

This thread could go on and on, but as you see, I won’t bother.
“Those who have eyes, let them see. Those who have ears, let them hear”

However you may wish to twist my words, I know very well what I have said, and what I meant. So do 6 billion people around the world who agree that Jews are NOT in fact allowed to kill anyone, anywhere, anytime. Who do not believe that the USA should indiscriminately kill civilians right and left because their governments happen to have a different opinion. Who do NOT believe that the Turkish unarmed civilans on that boat are responsible for the Armenian genocide of 1919, or that Palestinian babies are responsible for Hamas attacks on illegal Israeli settlements. Who think that perhaps Israel has played the Holocaust card a few times too many.

It was us that were secredly cheering when the Twin Towers went down. Not Americans, not Israelis. But EVERYONE else.

JLeslie's avatar

@Theby you wrote you are most probably thinking that the jews are the rightful owners of the land I had written previously I am not supportive of Israel because of some zionist, we have been there for 5,000 years talk, I support it because the UN had the right at the time to give the Jews the land, similar to what has been done in other countries throughout time. So you are wrong about that, and since I don’t give the land to the Jews because of some thousands of year old history I don’t give it to the Palestinians either. Like I said Both groups feel the have a right to the land, and both groups have some pretty good arguments supporting why.

Many Native Americans here still feel some resentment for what happened to them. They have reservations land that is considered their land, where they are exempt from many obligations and laws of the US, many universities give them free tuition, there are other things the US does to try and compensate. I would not say it makes up for everything, I personally do not know if they are fighting for any particular rights now that they feel they should be granted. They are US citizens of course, some of them feel discriminated against, but that has not been my experience from what I have observed in the cities I have lived, maybe because I generally lived in very diverse cities, I don’t know. Still, back to the example, England, and other European countries landed on Australian shores or American shores and felt simply arriving made it theirs. They even dumped their criminals in the countries to not have to deal with them in the mother land. If both the Jews and the Palestinians feel they are the rightful first owners of the land, then they are both the natives in this example, so they should probably both get land and their own country as a means to a compromise, same as your example of the Australians. An, Australia is not about to have all European descended people leave the country, or change over their entire government, so if the Aussies aren’t doing it why do you think the Israelis should? The Israelis were given the country by Europe basically who had control over the land. My guess is generally the aboringees are peaceful people, not blowing themselves up or others for their rights? I am assuming you are not aboriginal or Maoris.

You seem to ignore that @zenele said I want peace, as do all Israelis. I am willing to give back all and every inch of land – all the way back to the 67 border – and have Jerusalem as the capital of both states that @mattbrowne pointed out what @zenele said, and I agree with the statement. We want compromise, we want the Palestinians to have their own country, to live safely and in peace. We dont agree with Israel building more settlements on land that is in question right now, and the US President has spoken out against Israel about it.

Defending and trying to explain the Palestinian position does not make you an anti-semite. But people stating they want to blow up all the Jews in Israel kinda is.

I wonder if you have a comment about @zenele statement that Jews will defend someones right to speak out, and how about going to any Arab country and kissing in the street or speaking out against a leader. I guess you can argue that the Muslims can live any way they want. But, it is hard for me to believe that and Australian does not want citizens of the Arab world to have the same freedoms, opportunities, and rights they enjoy in Australia, especially women and children. Have you ever been to Israel? Or, the middle east? I haven’t, I was just curious, because I think maybe our perspectives would change if we had that experience maybe?

mattbrowne's avatar

@Theby – The issue is not about not liking how the Israeli government handles the aid ship situation or their allowing settlements in East Jerusalem. I don’t like their course of action in these matters either. That’s not anti-Semitism.

A clear sign of anti-Semitic statements are sentences that contain phrases with “the Jews…” Typically these statements are full of generalizations. Same for islamophobic statements with “the Muslims…” in it. Again, typically these statements are full of generalizations.

Response moderated
JLeslie's avatar

@Jack79 Cheering when the towers came down and people died. No one is “cheering” when Palestinains are killed. Cheering. Think about your choice of words. Gosh, I wonder why Arabs and Muslims even want to come to America. We have over 3 million Arabs here if I remember corrrectly, of course not all are Muslim, and that does not count the Iranians here, there are quite a few of them too, and the number of Arabs certainly does not account for how many Muslims there are in my country. Estimates put about an equal number of Muslims as Jews here, depending on the estimate. What are they doing here? Why don’t they go to Arab or Muslim countries? Or, at least a country that is not so aligned with Israel? I attended my friends wedding a couple of years ago, she is Jewish and he is Palestinian (well he was born in America to Palestinian Parents, and Identifies as Palestinian-American).

Many Americans agree with you that America should not go into countries as we did in Iraq. I saw the video of the boats from Turkey and as soon as the Israeli soldiers landed on the boat they began beating them. Whether the Israelis have a right to have the blockade or not is a different topic, but the Israelis allow aid to the Palestinians all of the time, from what I understand all of the other boats in the flotilla had no trouble. The Israelis did not come aboard with guns drawn. If they wanted to kill everyone they could have shot the boat from the air. I know my words are a waste of time, you seem so set in your views and full of hatred.

Don’t you think proving to the world that the Palestinians can be productive, peaceful prosperous people would be a better course of action? Form their own country and show the world what it can be. Every Palestinian person I know is wonderful. They all are American, are smart, have beautiful families, as American as I am in my opinion. I accept them 100%. I think the world, including the US and Israel would be happy to accept a peaceful Palestine. I think many countries would be happy to help the Palestinians build their country if a peace treaty is reached.

mattbrowne's avatar

@JLeslie – Just to be fair here. The number of people cheering when the WTC buidlings came down are a small minority. We should for example also remember hundreds of thousands of Muslims in Iran lighting candles. Just one example.

http://www.time.com/time/europe/photoessays/vigil/

The pictures were on German television. Not sure whether they were broadcasted in the US.

JLeslie's avatar

@mattbrowne I completely agree. If my words implied otherwise I am glad you said something. I was responding to @Jack79 and his statement that basically the world was cheering, and for sure I guess he was cheering.

dpworkin's avatar

@Theby You have marginalized yourself by your own words and beliefs, and I couldn’t care less what you think of my posts or my opinions. I said this before with more heartfelt language, but it was removed by an interfering mod who once again seemed to object to my manner of speaking, which should be no one’s business but my own.

JLeslie's avatar

@mattbrowne My point was that when there is a an act of violence between the Israeli’s and the Palestinians, and Palestinians die, I don’t know anyone who is cheering even if they are 100% on the side of the Israeli’s. Everyone wants the violence to end. To me cheering means they want the violence to continue, they would be happy to see it happen again and again. I think it is a small minority of people who were actually cheering, very small.

zenele's avatar

@Jack79 I pretty much ignore everything you, the hipocrite and the other anti-semite have written – but one thing I couldn’t ignore: did you actually write that you secretly cheered at the fall of the twin towers?

Those who have been to war, never wish for war. Never cheer for war or death. Never wish for their children to go to war. Every day, in my own secular way, I pray for peace. I do what I can – I am only one vote. But from the last elections, and from the changes that have taken place here, I’d say I reflect the majority of Israeli thinking. Some lean a little more to the left and would give everything back blindly – some alittle to the right. But even Netanyahu has agreed to a two state solution.

It’s complicated. But there is a will, and there will be a way. To paraphrase Herzl.

But to cheer death? To cheer terrorism? I get sicker every time I retuin to this thread. I swear I thought @jack was just a peaceful, nice musician. Who knew?

Response moderated (Flame-Bait)
Theby's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Great comments. You sane people!!

Response moderated (Unhelpful)
Response moderated
Response moderated
Response moderated (Flame-Bait)
mattbrowne's avatar

@JLeslie – Yes, I agree all mature democracies and civilized countries have evolved to a point where practically all people find cheering about the death of others repulsive. And it’s true in Palestine, Iran, Saudi-Arabia etc. there were people who cheered when the WTCs came down. Kids going to elementary school in Saudi-Arabia are taught to hate Israel. It’s in their text books. Couple of months ago there was an article in a German magazine about this. We should put more pressure on the Saudi leaders to end this kind of lunacy. We need Baremboim youth orchestras not kids learning how to hate properly.

JLeslie's avatar

@Theby We know there was cheering, we saw it on the TV, believe me, but we think it is disgusting is the point, and not the majority of the world cheering for that matter. As @zenele said we pray for peace. Seems your group prays for others to be removed from the earth. BIG difference.

@Hypocrisy_Central From what I understand the Israelis did give the flotilla boats the option to dock somewhere for inspection, not sure the name of the location, and they refused? And the people they had taken from the boat have all been released. Did you hear differently?

dpworkin's avatar

They were invited to dock at the port in Ashdod, and they were told that Israel would be glad to ship the donations overland to Gaza.

Response moderated (Flame-Bait)
JLeslie's avatar

@Theby You are wrong. From the beginning I have said I am understanding of the Palestinians wanting their own country and land. I said that I am sure the Israelis have made mistakes in how they have handled things at times, like any country. I also am an AMERICAN not an Israeli. I don’t think everything the Israeli government decides regarding the middle east is right, and for that matter even people in Israel lean left and right. Seeking the truth would be my goal. I have Muslim friends and Arab friends as I have mentioned, I have nothing negative to say about Muslims, only the ones who blow up things in the name of God. I would be negative about any people who blow up people in the name of God. I have people tell me all of the time that I have no ide how horrible the Quran is and what it teaches, and I dismiss those people out of hand. If you pick apart the Old or new testament you can find all sorts of crazy horrible shit in both. I have criticized Christians all over fluther, especially down in the bible belt of my country for their right wing, narrow views. I said that possibly the blockade should not be there, I am not clear on the specific issues regarding the blockade. I do know that if I wanted to bring aid into another country I would expect that I need to have the proper documents and be open to inspection. You seem as one-sided as you are accusing me of. I have not seen you say one understanding word of the situation Israel is in. There is usually two sides to every story, and the truth is typically in the middle.

I think of it as a land waw, not a religious war between the Palestinians and the Israelis. I could care less what religion they are.

JLeslie's avatar

@Theby You are right, I had not watched your link because I had seen video of people cheering on 9/11, I felt you did not have to prove anything to me. Now that I have watched I know you are impossible. I fucking said that I do not think that a video of Muslims cheering means all Muslims are cheering, I don’t think all Muslims are murderous, and then you believe some crazy shit about Jews and Israel from some video? Now I am done.

Response moderated (Personal Attack)
Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@JLeslie ” From what I understand the Israelis did give the flotilla boats the option to dock somewhere for inspection, not sure the name of the location, and they refused?” Even if they refused they had other more peaceful options they could have taken. It is funny Israel have no qualms invading others territorial boundaries or air space when it suits them to carry out acts of aggression like bombing a factory or suspected nuclear facility no doubt because their book lackey Uncle Sam will protect them and back their play. But is anyone seem to do the same to them for humanitarian reasons they respond with aggression………interesting.

”And the people they had taken from the boat have all been released.” Why would they not let them go? They knew they were wrong, but being released in a body bag is not that big of a plus. I can’t remember the name of the last American they released but he was not on the boat where the redacted footage of the “attack” was but he was beaten anyhow. I guess a little “deck side justice” before giving him the boot.

shilolo's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Your first point makes no sense. Israel bombed the Osirak nuclear reactor in Iraq to great worldwide acclaim in 1980. The rest of the world can be happy then that Saddam Hussein never accumulated nuclear weapons. The same can be said about the Syrian nuclear reactor. In any event, you are arguing that a country that aggressively protects its interests should, in all “fairness”, then allow others’ to attack them at will? Why should one allow the other? Actually, no reason. This flotilla wasn’t a humanitarian mission. It was designed solely to “bust the blockade”, which in the end is really just a way for enhancing the terrorist interests of Hamas (and their backers, Iran). You think Israel wants more Iranian weaponry smuggled into Hamas, like more potent missiles with longer range? If that happened, Israel would be forced to invade Gaza, again. All in all, the “humanitarians” are really just working for Hamas. I’m sure they love that….

JLeslie's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central So in your original question you said Maybe if those feckless, spineless amoebae up in Washington knew they stood a good chance of getting voted out unless they grow a pair and stop black check Israel’s terrorism maybe something might change. What exactly do you mean? What is the change that you think will happen?

Do you agree that the people on the flotilla immediately started hitting the Israeli soldiers as soon as their feet touched the boat?

JLeslie's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Also, I wonder if you believe that Israel has a right to exist, or if you just disagree with how they are doing things?

mattbrowne's avatar

I’m not sure whether this video is a fabrication

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWha0aMGIlQ

There seem to be cheering Israeli radicals happy about the 9 killed Turkish activists, shouting ‘Death to the Arabs’.

Are there really Israelis celebrating the IDF flotilla attack?

dpworkin's avatar

Now it’s a personal attack to call an antisemite an antisemite? This place gets more convoluted and more interesting by the day, as it ties itself in knots trying to be “correct”.

mattbrowne's avatar

@dpworkin – It would be, if in fact this person isn’t an anti-semite. How do we know? Ultimately we don’t. Because we can’t open the head of another person and analyze the brain. One way to handle this is the use use of a so-called

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-statement

For example: this sounds like an anti-semitic remark to me. You’re sharing your perception. And your perception is your perception. You’re giving the other person a chance to comment on your perception. For example he might say, oh, you might misunderstand what I was trying to say… or like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad reply, yes, Israel and all Jews should be eradicated. So if someone doesn’t deny the anti-semitism then the situation is very obvious. And it wouldn’t be a personal attack anymore. Till then it makes sense to give the other person has a chance to comment on your perception.

dpworkin's avatar

I don’t think it takes deep analysis to interpret the posts of someone who spells Jew with a small initial “j” and Muslim with a capital “M”, while berating Jews for their bad acts.

mattbrowne's avatar

Yes, but changing statements from “you” to “I” can work miracles sometimes. How about giving it a try?

dpworkin's avatar

I have no tolerance for racism, sexism or homophobia, just as I have none for pedophiles.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@JLeslie ”What exactly do you mean? What is the change that you think will happen?” What I mean is a more even handling of foreign affairs. The way it is ran now, IMO, causes us all more problems. Uncle Sam is quick to get on his knees before the Saudis (who are not really nice guys either) and wrap his lips around their oil pipe and suck hard saying he empathize with them but whatever Israel does in the Middle East Uncle Sam would never take action against them or rebuke them even if they are wrong, but would be quick to against many other Arab nations. No wonder Al Qaeda and other Islamic groups want to whack Uncle Sam’s pee pee, we come off looking like two-faced douches who are trying to play them for oil but in reality could care less about them personally.

”Do you agree that the people on the flotilla immediately started hitting the Israeli soldiers as soon as their feet touched the boat?” That is the footage leaked seem to show. However, I wonder what happened the 15 or 20 minutes before they started to roll tape? Did the commandos make threatening gestures or speech that made the flotilla people believe they would be harmed if the commandos got on deck? The Israelis where not showing any of that. Nothing to show why they reacted the way they reacted. But one thing is clear there would have not been any confrontation if the commandoes would have kept their a$$es off the deck in the 1st place.

”Also, I wonder if you believe that Israel has a right to exist, or if you just disagree with how they are doing things?” I do believe Israel has the right to exist, I will go on record saying so. Israel has the right to exist but so do the PLO, Hezbollah, and Hamas. There, I said it now people can get pissed all they want. Neither one are choir boys but when any do butt nugget things to turn a blind eye or try to justify when Israel does it but slam the others that is where I stand. It is how Israel does business a lot of times and I feel they do so because even if they build settlements etc on Palestinian land the US won’t so anything but lip service, Uncle Sam is just an enabler not a mediator or solution generator.

@dpworkin ”I have no tolerance for racism, sexism or homophobia, just as I have none for pedophiles.” And where does it stop then? Just as you have freedom to dislike certain people there are people who have the freedom to dislike women, Jews, Blacks, Gays, etc. Go anywhere on the globe and you might find places where females are just above donkeys, or Gays have committed a capital and can be put to death. Maybe if we really start trying to see and understand where the next guy/gal is coming from we can find a lovable middle.

dpworkin's avatar

There are very large, salient differences between “freedom to dislike” and institutionalized homophobia or sexism or antisemitism. Likewise pedophilia. You are defending the indefensible.

JLeslie's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Thanks for your reply. I agree that the US government being in bed with the Saudis is not good either. I think blindly going along with what Israel wants to do is bad also. I don’t think we are doing that with this president. I did feel like Bush was more enamoured with Israel, for more than just geopoltical reasons. I agree Hamas, and Hezbollah have the right to exist, but not if they are murderous. The same way the KKK exists (I am not saying the groups are like the KKK, I am just saing I have tolerance for a groups right to exist, even if I disagree with it), but they cannot commit crimes. I understand that some would argue that Israel and the US could also be seen as committing crimes. My perception is Hezbollah and Hamas exist because the people have very little, and they help supply goods and possibly infastructure to the people? And, I guess also are willing to fight the “enemy” which is Israel in this case, when maybe it seems like governments seem less willing. I know very little about it to be very honest. If I am wrong feel free to correct me on that. I would be fine with spending our America dollars on building infastructure and providing opportunity for the Iraqi’s (instead of spending on creating a war) and Palestinians if there was an intention of peace and compromise.

But, for me that is the big question to the Arabs, and countries like Iran, and more specifically the Palestinians, will they accept Israel and agree to a treaty? If they have no intention of it then it is war, truly war. Why shouldn’t Israel just, if they know the governments and the people of the other countries want to demolish Israel, not fight? Wouldn’t any country?

I really think if there was a cease fire, and peace treaty discussions began to take place, and each country condemned any break in the cease fire, I really believe the Israelis would activiely particpate and desire a treaty. I am sure there are some rogue extreme Israel citizens who don’t want to give in to anything and are hateful and full of rage, but I think in practice Israel wants and would abide to a treaty. I hope it is the same for the Palestinains, but it doesn’t seem that way from the outside. I am sure there are Palestinains who want it, but it seems the majority and people in power don’t. Maybe I am wrong.

About the flotilla. I agree we cannot be sure what happened the 20 minutes before. If I was on an aid ship and military or police boarded, I don’t think I would try to beat them with bats. I mean maybe I am too passive or trusting, but it would not occur to me, unless I had something to hide or they had specifically threatened to me.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@JLeslie JLeslie ”I agree Hamas, and Hezbollah have the right to exist, but not if they are murderous. The same way the KKK exists (I am not saying the groups are like the KKK, I am just saing [sic] I have tolerance for a groups right to exist, even if I disagree with it), but they cannot commit crimes.” Many Blacks don’t feel the KKK should exist or be allowed to march anywhere. I say let them; what better way to know who they are? If I don’t want to hear what they have to say I don’t have to stand there listening. As far as crimes go there are supposing universal crimes but crimes in general is quite bibulous unless you have a group or groups that will all support a given action as crime. And if you lace it with the prospect of war then a lot that would be crimes get swept under the rug.

”My perception is Hezbollah and Hamas exist because the people have very little, and they help supply goods and possibly infrastructure [sic] to the people? And, I guess also are willing to fight the “enemy” which is Israel in this case, when maybe it seems like governments seem less willing.” I would say that is pretty much in line what I think. 80% of the mosques, day care, schools, religious, cultural, and social welfare programs are funded by Hamas revenue. They came about because the Fata party and the PLO could not get stuff done. Why is it people join gangs? Many were not getting support at home and certainly none from the establishment who often seem to be oppressing them. If you were a young Palestinian and Hamas was making it possible for you to improve your life and Israel was not would you not support them? And would you not also hate America if America was not only providing them the means to wreck your neighborhood and kill your relatives yet say nothing about it or do anything to curve it? It was 5 years ago that Israel concocted its unilateral disengagement plan causing more strife in Gaza.

People seem to forget this nation was founded by rebels who bucked the rules and influence of the Crown. People might try to justify it by saying the Crown was this or that but they were the sitting government. It has happened many times over, sometime when the dust settles the Taliban is in place, Castro, or the Ayatollah Khomeini, etc. The US only says anything when the side they backed was ousted or didn’t win; and overthrow is an overthrow and it is never lawful.

”But, for me that is the big question to the Arabs, and countries like Iran, and more specifically the Palestinians, will they accept Israel and agree to a treaty?” I believe it could happen but not with the US in the middle of it, Uncle Sam has never been an honest broker. Uncle Sam does just enough to keep the oil flowing allowing the Saudi dictators to run amuck over human rights while turning a blind eye to it, and not calling them on why most of the 9/11 attacker were Saudis but not going but never even and fairly down the middle. If I were an Arab I would not trust ⅔ that came out of Uncle Sam’s mouth either.

”Why shouldn’t Israel just, if they know the governments and the people of the other countries want to demolish Israel, not fight? Wouldn’t any country?” Anyone attacked should fight back. Don’t tell me that “I was just defending myself” if you go above and beyond what it actually takes to stop the attack or the attack was lest than half of what you gave back. Imagine you were accosted by a man with a crowbar demanding your money and laptop, while he got distracted by a homeless man in a dumpster you kick him in the chestnuts and drops him. After kicking him more you them go to your trunk whip out a Glock and pop a few caps in each of his knee caps, then shoot him through his right hand even though he is stopped and down figure taking his own crow bar and beating him about the head and neck for a dozen or so blows you would 100% avoid assault or attempted murder charges?

”I am sure there are some rogue extreme Israel citizens who don’t want to give in to anything and are hateful and full of rage, but I think in practice Israel wants and would abide to a treaty.” They are no angels they as Hezbollah etc will break a treaty if it seems uneven or no longer suits them, Israel did so in 2005 with the unilateral disengagement plan.

I am not saying the way Hamas, Hezbollah, et al operate is the way it should but I can understand why they operate that way. They probably have the same frustration that made a bunch of “patriots” dress up as native Americans and sneak onto a ship and toss the Crown’s tea into Boston harbor.

JLeslie's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central I understand your take on everything. You make some good points.

You brought up that US should not be the one to broker the deal between the Palestinians and Israel. I have alwas thought this, but have never reall been in on a discussion about it. It seems like a more Arab friendly nation which believes that the decision to form Israel was and is valid, would be better. I would think a country in Europe, but not sure which one.

Your point about the flotilla. This type of thing happens with police officers. It is not necessarily that the officer is especially violent, but when the face someone who is being overl aggressinve they cannot be sure what will happen next. Is he going to pull out a knife a gun? Like a kid who gets shot be a cop, because he appears to be reaching for a gun/something in his pocket. We would question if the officer fired too easily, but we must remember the officers perspective, and make our hands visible to him. I really think if the Israelis were greated in a calm manner nothing would have happened, but I also agree that it is possible the Israelis used too much force in the situation. Hard to know for sure with the information I have seen about it.

Again about your original question. I think probably the biggest buyers of Israeli products and exports are on the side of Israel. Not just America, but other nations also. Even ones who are very empathetic to the Palestinian point-of-view. And issues like money going to to terrorist organizations, like us buying oil from the Saudis and many people have concern that some of that money helps our “enemies.” I don’t think most nations worry about that when doing business with Israel.

Answer this question

Login

or

Join

to answer.
Your answer will be saved while you login or join.

Have a question? Ask Fluther!

What do you know more about?
or
Knowledge Networking @ Fluther