Why is androgyny accepted in music but less so everywhere else?
Off the top of my head I can think of 5 musicians who, in their careers, have played with gender expressions and androgyny that are/were also popular: David Bowie, Boy George, Prince, Brian Molko and Annie Lennox, of course. Is music as a field more open to gender ‘transgressions’ than any other field because of its fantastical nature, its pushing reality or is it something else?
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It’s not really accepted. I guess the music just “backs it up”. I dunno.
@Draconess25 Let me ask you this? Do you find any of the mentioned artists sexually attractive as they are?
It’s art. Everything is okay with art. Besides, musicians are generally trying to attract attention, good or bad.
Frankly, I have no problems with androgyny anywhere.
That’s an interesting question. I’d guess it’s mostly that music is somewhat transcendent in its own way… and that allows a better state of mind for acceptance. Marilyn Manson comes to mind too, though, which I remember being such a scandal ( NSFW! )
I’m taking a shot in the dark, but I feel that famous people can ‘get away’ (androgyny is not bad) with things because they have the support of a much wider group of people. Of course some Joe schmo in a small town will only have his family and friends, but not millions of people.
I always thought the purpose of woman’s business attire was to make them more… man-like? Less woman-like?
@mrentropy Only if you think clothing has genders.
I don’t think it is more accepted. For all the fans those artists you listed have, there are others who dislike them solely because of their sexuality (the way many currently “hate” Lady Gaga, for instance).
@bob_ You mean gender expression, not sexuality. Don’t want to get people confused early on in the q.:)
I think adrogyny has long been a theme in, and been accepted in, all of the arts. Certainly we have seen it in theater for 3 or more millennia; certain poets have long been sexually ambiguous, we have the long-accepted and even routine phenomena of George Sand and Oscar Wilde in literature, and gender issues have also long been a theme in painting and sculpture.
@dpworkin I agree with you – I find it fascinating that all of these elements are present in what we find as inspiring but that acceptance, for many, doesn’t extend to their own lives.
Interesting question. I find epicene people fascinating where ever they show up, but there certainly have been a lot of musicians who pushed the envelope quite deliberately. Michel Jackson is another that looked quite effeminate. Some visual artists push the gender barriers as well. Andy Warhol was masculine enough, but often had a whole coterie of cross dressers and gender benders around him. Of course, Candy Darling not only did films for Warhol, but performed in his Velvet Underground band.
@ETpro So you think many of these artists don’t actually feel that the gender binary needs to be deconstructed but only did so to be sensationalist? In that, in their ‘real life’, they don’t actually believe in any of it?
@Simone_De_Beauvoir I, um, yeah, I totes meant that. But could you briefly explain the differences, for, you know, others?
@bob_ LOL, sure
Androgyny, to me, is about gender expression which has nothing to do with sexuality – in that people who are androgynous or trans or gender-variant can have any sexuality of the LGB spectrum and beyond (aka straight or asexual or queer)..
@Simone_De_Beauvoir No, I certainly didn’t mean to say that. What I meant by artists “deliberately” pushing beyond the norm is that that is the area art is meant to explore.
@ETpro Then why don’t more artists do it?
@bob_ Erm, of course
@mrentropy It’s like this – to me, clothing is just pieces of cloth, right? it doesn’t matter if a woman puts on a suit or a man puts on a skirt…they’re just wearing cloths…it’s us, people, who put values on clothing and limit what gender wears what…so when some women wear suits, they might want to be treated like a man (with respect, not sexualized) but don’t want to be perceived as men…other women might want to be perceived as men…yet others just want to wear what they like and not have the whole ‘you like looking like a man? yeah?’ thrown at them.
@Simone_De_Beauvoir “Why don’t more artists do it?” I do not know. That’s an excellent question. Perhaps even our most creative artists are not all immune to social pressures to conform.
Those with an artistic temperament have always been allowed to function outside of societal norms. Perhaps because society needs that outlet, a way to experience the taboo without the consequences.
@Simone_De_Beauvoir I’ll try and be more specific. To me, business clothing for women seem to be designed to look more like mens suits and hide things like curves. I could be wrong. I’m not a fashion consultant, by any means. But you may be reading a bit more into what I said than what I intended.
As previously mentioned, all of the arts have less rigid gender roles. Stage as well as screen, to some degree.
Bothe K. D. Lang and Linda Hunt were androgynous appearing enough to play male characters without undue fuss.
Lang in Salmonberries (not that well known a film) and Hunt winning an Academy Award for her role as Billy Kwon in The Year of Living Dangerously.
And down through the ages Clowns, both in Comedia del Arte and otherwise have been androgynous fantasy characters.
And let’s not forget about Hedwig and the Angry Inch. A film about a German transexual punk rocker. Fantastic.
And I can’t help but wonder about the name chosen for Linda Hunt’s current character as the head of the NCIS Los Angeles branch.
Hedy is an Anglicized diminutive of the German Hedwig. A subtle nod to Androgyny or just coincidence ? I just find it kind of interesting.
I liked the fact that they chose her for what is traditionally a male role and job title. And she does a great job at it. Was naming the character Hedy her idea ? Interesting.
My theory is that music is a very expressive art form. Because of this, both men and women feel more free to express themselves, and this may come out not only in their created music but in their dress, the way they look, the way they act, etc. People are not as critical in the realm of music as in say “sports” or “occupations”, where delineation of gender is more rigid and defined.
Because things that are different and intriguing sell. They are a relatively safe way to explore. And because music is fantasy – it’s not as threatening as, say, your child’s preschool teacher – where people would then be forced to comprehend the incomprehensible [to them].
Law enforcement managers know that you can never get rid of vice entirely, so what they instinctively do is assign it into a given area so that they can benefit from the delusion that they are controlling it.
Perhaps music is that “safe” and “controlled” spot.
My very own beloved Heavy Metal had it’s bout with glam rock – where full grown men could be curiously attractive.
Humans are a strange lot.
@ipso Have you seen Kyo from Dir en Grey?
people want to know black or white….the touch of grey confuses them and makes them think too hard. thus the androgyny makes them wonder just a bit too much….
I find this an interesting question and thread. I could write something about my own experience performing as a drag queen, but that’s not at all related to androgyny.
What is it about the music world that allows the ambiguous? What is it about sound that transports us to places where gender becomes irrelevant?
I believe it may have to do with that exactly: sound. We approach music and its sounds in a different way than we approach other art forms. We expect the transcendent. We are more willing to look past the vessel and feel the timbre.
Edit: perhaps the artists push that on us, too. They want us to look past them and feel the sounds they produce.
Music, like theater, is art. I think art has always had an “anything goes” element – if anything more or less, music has been pressing the envelope harder than theater or any other form of art.
I don’t think music/theatre/art ever had a default “anything goes” element. You’re selling them short. They had to take it. Perhaps they had nowhere else to go, so it consolidated, but in many cases they risked everything to put it out there. They FOUGHT FOR IT, it was not given.
@Draconess25 – I had not – thanks for the ref. – I’ll check it out. I was into Loudness back in the day. That’s about it.
Great question! I don’t have any answers, but am enjoying the discussion. FWIW, I’ve had crushes on just about all of the androgynous folks mentioned here. Interesting…
@augustlan So, Lady Gaga, but not Kyo? Still nice.
@Simone You might wnt to read Orlando by Virginia Woolf; one of the classic works of literature on androgyny.
@janbb I’ll add it to my veeeery long list, thanks!
Perhaps people in the performing arts are hearkening back to its religious beginnings, almost like a Jungian collective unconscious thing, where the “essence,” the spirit, and not the gender of the vessel is the most important aspect, and performing was more directly a vehicle for transmitting the mores and beliefs of that culture and an avenue of transcendent experiences for a particular group of people.
“FWIW, I’ve had crushes on just about all of the androgynous folks mentioned here.”
Same here. Annie Lennox, Bowie, Molko..
Maybe because music is an art form. Same as science fiction. The unusual seems attractive. In the Star Trek episode
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outcast_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)
William Riker falls in love with Soren, a member of an advanced, humanoid alien race called the J’naii. The J’naii are an androgynous species that view the expression of any sort of male or female gender, and especially sexual liaisons, as a sexual perversion. According to their official doctrine, the J’naii had evolved beyond gender and thus view the idea of male/female sexuality as primitive.
A fascinating episode. Like fascinating musicians.
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