Social Question

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

A drunken man's transexual encounter ends with violence, is there someone to blame?

Asked by Hypocrisy_Central (26798points) July 26th, 2010

Was it too much booze that made this guy react the way he did or would he have done it anyhow under the same circumstances?

I was chatting with a guy I knew and he was reminiscing about his younger drinking days and how he and some friends went out to this bar which was known to be frequent by transsexuals. He and another buddy spots the 3rd wheel of their outing chatting up a transsexual (going from male to female) at the bar. They were familiar with the individual but their 3rd was clueless. He was short and small framed and had good work done as to not look masculine at all so I was told. Also he had what I was told a very natural set of aftermarket boobs. This 3rd guy spent most of the night buying the drinks sucking face, and feeling up the transsexual which he thought was a hot chic, to the entertainment of the other 2. He kept trying to cop a crotch feel but was blocked every time until near closing and they were both pretty hammered, I guess the transsexual’s defenses was weaken by too much booze and the 3rd got a good feel of 3rd base and found a man on it. The guy I knew and his buddy busted a gut laughing at the 3rd an outcome they suspected would happen eventually. This guy tricks the transsexual out back to the alley under the guise of allowing the transsexual to give him a BJ. He then pounces and pummels the poor tranny into a bloody mess. When the other 2 goes back in the alley and see what has happened to their 3rd wheel and see what has happened they hustle the 3rd guy away.

Do you believe the 2 that knew was partly to blame by allowing things to happen for their amusement they don’t think they were? Was the transsexual partly to blame because he did not reveal that fact before accepting all the free drinks as the story teller believes? Did the 3rd seriously over react because he was drunk or he would have gotten violent anyhow? Should they at least gotten aid to the transsexual before high tailing it out of there to keep the 3rd out of trouble the least they could have done? Is it the 3rd wheel’s fault for being too drunk to know who he was sucking face with and feeling up, which I believe? Was anyone at fault at all?

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69 Answers

NaturallyMe's avatar

The 3rd guy was at fault for getting so drunk – anyone who gets drunk and behaves irresponsibly as a result thereof is to blame for the consequences of their actions, because they often do not think clearly before acting.
The transsexual is to blame as well because he/she should have let the 3rd guy know that he/she was not a born female as soon as he/she saw that this 3rd guy was taking an interest in him/her.
The rest played a lesser part in the situation, so those 2 above are the main parties to “blame”.

judochop's avatar

He whoever raised the fist is to blame, his friends are just assholes and instigators. I’d imagine that they would all be pretty chill and able to handle the possible shock and awe of a tranny if they were hanging out in a popular “tranny” bar. I don’t know where you live but in Portland, Oregon if you are in a “tranny” bar, you are already in a gay bar. Plus he was already rolling with 2 other dudes, you even called him the 3rd wheel. I’d assume he was gay or in to trannys. Sounds like they really are just a bag of dicks.

NaturallyMe's avatar

@judochop – you’re right, the one who raised the fist first is the one to blame the most.

LuckyGuy's avatar

There is enough blame to go around for everyone. But, the one who threw the first punch is guilty.

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

It was an idiotfest all around. What a bunch of morons.

NaturallyMe's avatar

@AdirondackwannabeLOL, yes, i think that’s about acurate too.

marinelife's avatar

There is plenty of blame to go around, but a lot of it rests with the two who think they are blame-free.

1. Why did they go to a bar where transsexuals were known to hang out if they weren’t looking for trouble?

2. Why didn’t they tell their 3rd friend early on?

3. Why didn’t they stop their friend from beating the transsexual?

4. Why did they just run away?

They have a lot of blame.

tinyfaery's avatar

The victim is not to blame. Just as a rape victim is never to blame.

What’s at fault is society’s bigotry, fear and hatred of anything that does not meet the norm.

To even hint that a FTM in a well-known LGBT bar was to blame for not disclosing who she was is disgusting.

Likeradar's avatar

Why on earth would anyone be to blame except the guy who raised his fist?

His friends sound like losers, but they’re not to blame unless they knew their “friend” was such a violent piece of shit and would do something like this.

tinyfaery's avatar

Whoops—MTF

Zyx's avatar

The tranny was to blame.
Though the guy overreacted.

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

@tinyfaery That helps. I wasn’t sure how that (FTM) worked.

Likeradar's avatar

@Zyx Why do you think it was her (the transexual’s) fault?

ItsAHabit's avatar

The guy who lured the transexual out back and attacked him is entirely to blame. No one else is.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@marinelife “1. Why did they go to a bar where transsexuals were known to hang out if they weren’t looking for trouble?” Don’t know if they were “looking” for trouble but the story teller and his bud knew of the place and it was quite popular, a “jumping place”.

“2. Why didn’t they tell their 3rd friend early on?” Becuase the hapless 3rd wheel was clueless about the bar and did not know it was 65% straight but 35% LGTR. They thought they’d get a laugh when he (3rd wheel) figured out the lay of the land.

“3. Why didn’t they stop their friend from beating the transsexual?” They say that they did not know the intentions of 3rd wheel when he and the transexual stepped outside.

“4. Why did they just run away?” I guess they really felt some blame and because the transexual was beat pretty bad and they did not want 3rd wheel and I would guess themselves caught up in trouble or spending a night or longer in jail.

Zyx's avatar

@Likeradar Preop trannies should tell any person they treat that way what they are, even if it’s just a matter of courtesy. If you can’t tell the difference anymore you should still mention you’re infertile, for the same reasons. Getting people to invest so much emotionally when you know they might be acting on some flawed assumptions is abuse and all kinds of wrong things. Decency might not be commonplace but right is still right.

Likeradar's avatar

@Zyx I agree with your premise in your last post. But to me, getting drunk at a bar with someone you just met and heading out back for a BJ isn’t “investing so much emotionally.”
Also, in reference to the question at hand, what you’re doing is blaming the victim. The 3rd guy chose to express his feelings (which I imagine to be confusion, anger, and embarrassment) through violence. It is not the victim’s fault. Was the victim behaving appropriately? Maybe, maybe not. It is still not her fault that this guy expresses his feelings with his fists.

Zyx's avatar

@Likeradar I’ll agree the man was wrong as well but I believe preventing the entire situation was the responsability of the tranny. The man probably felt assaulted or something, seems to be a big deal when women feel that way. The comparison might not be completely accurate but still.

If you just don’t get what the big deal is, imagine a guy picking up a naive girl by saying he’s an astronaut or something, don’t 80% of people agree that’s a really crappy thing to do?

Dutchess_III's avatar

As a woman, I would have shut it down a helluva a lot sooner than the transsexual did. I can’t imagine even going as far as kissing a guy I didn’t know in a bar, much less “feeling me up” in front of everyone. I didn’t get any feel that the transsexual was resisiting or trying to put a stop to it except, it sounds to me like the transsexual stopped the guy from getting to “3rd base” early on, probably because she had a suspicion what the dude’s reaction would be. Until she had too much to drink to think straight.

I agree with @Adirondackwannabe They’re all a bunch of idiots.

Likeradar's avatar

@Zyx Would it be the fake astronaut’s fault if a girl beat the shit out of him? Not yelled at him, not told her friends to stay away from him, not even keyed his car. Beat up, pretty badly as it sounds. Violence is solely the fault of the perpetrator.

Response moderated (Personal Attack)
Dutchess_III's avatar

@Zyx I agree that sometimes violence is called for. But not just because you feel stupid, as in this case. But I don’t know where you get the idea that violent interaction was once a respected form of interaction. Do you mean like, it was OK for a man to beat up on his wife or kids? What do you mean?

Zyx's avatar

@Dutchess_III The guy wouldn’t have beat up that tranny just for making him feel stupid, but out of emotional distress. When people deceive you, you should be able to hit them. Wife, maybe, if she’s a lying whore. Kids, No.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@Zyx I have nothing more to say to you.

Response moderated (Personal Attack)
tinyfaery's avatar

I’m refraining. Where’s dpworkin when you need him?

Neizvestnaya's avatar

They chose a bar frequented by transexuals hoping for what… I agree with @Adirondackwannabe, idiotfest all around.

janedelila's avatar

@Zyx please go back to the rock you crawled out from under, or stop posting controversial comments just for attention.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Dutchess_III “I can’t imagine even going as far as kissing a guy I didn’t know in a bar, much less “feeling me up” in front of everyone. I didn’t get any feel that the transsexual was resisiting or trying to put a stop to it except, it sounds to me like the transsexual stopped the guy from getting to “3rd base” early on, probably because she had a suspicion what the dude’s reaction would be. Until she had too much to drink to think straight.”

Think about it? I can picture it. You have a MTF who may not get that much play and all of a sudden she have this guy wrapped around his finger (throw in being horny too, even if because of a few drinks) and it is a dark bar so she can let him “feels the goods” and no one but those really close can see and he get touched where he want but seldom do. A regular gal who don’t have the dumb stick to contend with maybe not, but in this situation…..I can see it. If people go to a rev or party and make out in the bathroom….yeah….

downtide's avatar

Good grief. The transsexual is in no way to blame. She was in a bar where transsexuals were known to frequent, it’s not like she was deliberately trying to conceal her identity. Sadly this sort of thing happens all the time.

The drunk 3rd guy, well I guess if he hadn’t got drunk it wouldn’t have happened in the first place, and he’s the one that actually committed the crime, so at least some of the blame is his. But the way I see it, it’s guys 1 and 2, who knowingly and deliberately encouraged it for the purpose of entertainment (and pretty poor choice of entertainment at that) who should carry their share too.

Even spread all round the three of them, to be fair. They’re all assholes.

downtide's avatar

@Zyx since when did failng to disclose your sexual history to a bloke you meet up in a bar, be a crime so heinous that getting beaten to a bloody pulp in an alleyway is a fair punishment?

downtide's avatar

Oh and why should it be allways the transsexual’s responsibility to tell?

If a person hates transsexuals to such a degree that he cannot control his violent tendencies when in their presence, then he should declare that before getting involved. You know, like this – “I am a transphobic bigot, and I need to ask if you are transsexual before I kiss you, in case I feel the urge to try to kill you.”

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@downtide I believe if I found myself at a bar (or any bar that didn’t have a pool table) where GLTR people were known to frequent I don’t think I would approach anyone there because I would not want to have to ask such a sensitive question however, if anyone appoached me then i would feel it necessary to breech the question. But that is a very good lesson on never being so drunk your good sense gets lost in the bubbles.

downtide's avatar

As a transsexual I honestly don’t know what I would do in that situation. Seeing as I’m happily in a long term relationship I’m not looking for anyone else. But if I was, I would certainly disclose at some stage, because there’s no way for a FTM to hide it even post-op (it never looks as good as the real thing) but I don’t think I would want to do so until there was some emotional involvement in the relationship, and a desire to go physical.

At what point does a man with an extremely small penis disclose that fact to a potential girlfriend?

Dutchess_III's avatar

@downtide ? Why would a guy feel that’s something he’d need to disclose before hand?

@Hypocrisy Central _I can picture it. You have a MTF who may not get that much play Obviously this MTF looks enough like a female to attract a guys attention from a man. Women just don’t have that much trouble getting “play.” But she’ll figure that much out when she gets finished with the surgery.

@downtide The only culpability I see that the MTF had was that she wasn’t at all sure of how the guy would react. That’s why she kept him away from her genitalia until she got way drunk. That’s a pretty dangerous risk to take, IMO. Of all people, she must have been fully aware of the homophobic nature of some people, especially men…..

downtide's avatar

@Dutchess_III Why would a guy feel that’s something he’d need to disclose before hand?
I’m not saying he would (I actually don’t think they do) but it’s comparable to a FTM’s situation.

As regard the culpability of the MTF in getting drunk – it’s true that alcohol would have clouded her judgement but I still don’t see that as putting her to blame for getting beaten up. If a (non-transsexual) woman was drunk, and was raped, and people blamed her because she was drunk, there would be an outcry. If a (non-transsexual) man was going home from the pub after a few pints, and he was mugged and beaten up, no-one would say he deserved it. Why do they say she does, when she’s transsexual?

Dutchess_III's avatar

@downtide How is it comparable? I’m not following you. The only comparable thing is if a guy hit on a woman, she was interested, then later found out the guy was another girl….

Hon…I didn’t SAY she deserved it. I’m saying she knew she had to be playing with fire….unless she assumed that the guy knew she was a transsexual…...which, it sounds like she went to pretty good lengths not to let him find out. Why didn’t she want him to find out when she was more sober than she was at the end? I’m not saying she deserved to get beat up, but she did deserve to be called out for tricking the guy….

The whole situation is disgusting to me, and would be just as disgusting if she had been a natural female. Would be just as disgusting if it had happened in a straight bar.

MacBean's avatar

it sounds like she went to pretty good lengths not to let him find out

You mean by being in a bar that transsexuals are known to frequent? Yeah, that sounds really underhanded and sneaky to me, too.
.
.
Okay, here’s a hypothetical for you. Let’s say Suzie is a girl in a bar. Suzie was born with an interesting body malformation—her coccyx is extended and she has a little bit of a tail. Is Suzie obligated to immediately announce this to every guy she meets at a bar? And if she and the guy get to making out and he randomly grabs her tail, is he entitled to beat her up for not telling him? I mean, a tail is kind of weird, sure; I can totally see freaking out a little. But turning it into physical violence? Not cool.

That’s essentially what transsexualism is. A brain of one gender is born with a body that doesn’t match. It’s just a physical deformation. Pre-surgery, it’s in the person’s best interest to disclose the info at some point, because tails and webbed toes and incorrect genitalia can freak even the most open-minded people out if you spring it on them. Post-op there should be no need to even mention it again if you don’t want to.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@MacBean The guys were idiots, all the way around. I have to ask, did the third guy understand that he was in a transsexual bar? The OP said, “They were familiar with the individual but their 3rd was clueless.” That would imply he thought he was dealing with a woman who was born into a women’s body. Do straight people ever go to transsexual bars? I don’t know…..(However, if he hadn’t figured out what kind of bar it was by the time the night was over, that just makes him even more of an idiot.) Regardless, his behavior was despicable.

As far as the tail scenario…I guess if I had a tail, or a 6th finger or something, I would have hoped I would have had some sort of reconstructive surgery by the time I was old enough to be going to bars. But if I hadn’t, I don’t someone’s masculinity would be threatened by my deformities. They might be grossed out when they found out, but they wouldn’t feel like I was tricking them. If it got as far as going to bed, I’d feel I’d have to let them know. Everyone has a coccyx. Not everyone has every sexual part, and that’s what we’re talking about: sex, the sex organs, sexuality, male/female, mating, period, and that’s really in a whole different ball park. They guy was probably a closet homo, just didn’t want to admit it, and he came unglued when he realized he’d been coming on to a man.

downtide's avatar

@Dutchess_III It’s comparable because a post-op FTM transsexual, who has had a certain type of surgery, is physically indistinguishable from a natural-born man with a micro-penis. I can’t see how she went to any lengths at all to avoid Guy 3 from finding out. She was in a transsexual bar. How is that hiding?

My point is the same one @MacBean raises. That the transsexual gets beaten up purely because of closeted homophobia – because the person who was chatting her up is terrified that someone might think (or realise) that he is gay. The truth is, a transsexual is “playing with fire” and putting themselves at risk of getting beaten up every single day, simply by existing at all, and even daring to set foot outside their front door.

MacBean's avatar

@Dutchess_III: Yes, if you had a tail or a sixth finger, your parents probably would have had it “fixed” fairly hastily. The trouble with a brain of one gender in the body of another is that so far people have treated this as a mental problem rather than a physical one; if you even had the courage to tell anyone about it, you would have been put through a great deal of therapy instead of having the proper reconstructive surgery.

Sure, there was time between 18 and 21 (and then between 21 and however old she is now) to have surgery. But it’s expensive, it’s risky, and it requires certain steps that take a great deal of time. If she was able to pass well enough that someone who would beat her up for being trans was “fooled,” chances are good that she’s taking those steps.

And, no, not everyone has every sexual part. But everyone does have something. @downtide pointed out the existence of micopenises, and there are also macroclitorises. So there are plenty of anomalies that make things not as cut-and-dried as you seem to think they are/should be. And people shouldn’t have to disclose that information about themselves the first time they meet a random person in a bar.

janbb's avatar

I can’t see it any other way than that all three “friends” were assholes. There’s major cruelty in laughing at a friend’s deception and major culpability in beating someone to a bloody pulp because you were humiliated. WTF – are we still living in the 1950s?

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

@janbb Three cheers! Bunch of adolescents. You go to a bar, try to grab the first thing you see, and your surprised that you got a “surprise”?

Dutchess_III's avatar

@downtide Yes, they were in a transsexual bar, but that doesn’t mean every single person in there was a transsexual, right?

You said, “I can’t see how she went to any lengths at all to avoid Guy 3 from finding out. ” She went to lengths to hide it by allowing him to touch every part of her body except her genitalia area, until she was too drunk to remember…. “He kept trying to cop a crotch feel but was blocked every time until near closing and they were both pretty hammered, I guess the transsexual’s defenses was weaken by too much booze and the 3rd got a good feel of 3rd base and found a man on it. ”

I think she needed to decide to make the situation known up front when someone comes on to her. She was obviously trying to hide the fact that she was a MTF transsexual, and she was making promises that she couldn’t keep, namely that she was up for what the guy assumed was heterosexual sex between a man and a woman. She lied. She didn’t deserve to get beaten up, but she did lie and she was wrong to do it. And she was stupid to agree to go into a dark alley to give the idiot a blow job. I’d say the same thing if she was a naturally born female.

Anyway you look at it, all four of them were sleaze balls and that includes her.

Likeradar's avatar

She was in a bar that’s a well-known transsexual hangout… maybe she was stopping him from copping a feel because she didn’t want her crotch grabbed in a bar, not because she was hiding anything? Maybe she thought this guy was into it, and wanted to wait for that until they had a little more privacy?
She didn’t lie. She just met this guy in a bar, and didn’t tell him something personal yet.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@Likeradar You need to read the details. They all but had sex on the bar. The only thing she wouldn’t let him do was grab her crotch. She allowed the guy to think she was a natural born female. By omission she lied. Why does everyone want to give this person some sort of halo all of a sudden? She’s a sleaze ball! So are the guys!

Likeradar's avatar

@Dutchess_III I did read the details, thanks. Also, I’m not giving her a halo. I am suggesting other possibilities aside from intentional manipulation.

Maybe she is a vile, conniving bitch.
Or maybe she wanted to wait til they got to a bedroom before letting this guy get to the goods.
Or maybe she needs to know someone a minimum of an hour or be very drunk before they can feel between her legs, but she doesn’t hold the same standards for her boobs.
Or maybe, because it’s a well-known tranny bar, there’s a lot of guys who come there to fulfill a pre-op kink and she wanted to make sure she got something in return first but ended up too drunk to make a deal.
Or maybe lots and lots of other reasons I can’t fathom because I’ve never been a drunk transsexual at a bar.

But we don’t know. I just don’t immediately want to call a victim a sleeze ball when I can imagine many alternatives.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Well, it’s a good thing she didn’t go as far as to take him into the privacy of a bedroom. He probably would have killed her. It was bad enough that she agreed to go into a dark alley to give him a blow job. She’s a sleaze, and she’s stupid.

Also, it was’t necessarily a “well known” tranny bar. It was a bar “which was known to be frequented by transsexuals.” How come she’s the only one getting any benefit of the doubt? Why not him? Maybe he didn’t realize that transsexuals frequented the bar, and maybe he was too stupit to figure it out within the first 15 minutes. Could be. Could be he’s a stupid sleaze too. ..... In the late 70’s a girlfriend and I ended up at a gay bar in Oklahoma, quite by accident. Took us about 30 minutes to figure it out, but eventually we did. And decided to hang out for a while. Some flaming black guy with a huge fake diamond on his finger took us under his wing, learned us some things. One of those things what that it wasn’t JUST a gay bar. Plenty of straight people came there too.

MacBean's avatar

Too bad that guy didn’t learn you a few more things, so you didn’t come off like an ignorant and/or bigoted transphobic asshole now.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@MacBean There ya go. I call the three guys stupid sleaze balls, and that’s the truth. Nobody is calling me names because of it. Nobody is telling me I just hate men in general. However, I call the woman the same thing, and that’s the truth too, but calling her that makes me a bigoted transphobic asshole. Go figure. Are transsexuals and gay people held to a different standard than the rest of human kind? Are we not to criticize their actions, ever, just because of who they are? Can transsexuals do no wrong?

Likeradar's avatar

@Dutchess_III He is the one who decided to take his feelings out on the other person through his fists (and probably feet, I’m assuming). No one is saying they blame the guy for not being 100% on board with hooking up with a transsexual, when that’s not his thing and he didn’t know she is one.
This is not a question of should he have laughed it off, should he have gone to bed with her anyway, or should he have not felt bad/awkward/angry about the situation. This is a question of a transsexual who got the shit beat out of her because this man is the kind of person who expresses himself through beating the shit out of people when he feels wronged.

Likeradar's avatar

@Dutchess_III Also, where are you getting that anyone is saying transsexuals or gay people can do no wrong or should be held to a different standard?

tinyfaery's avatar

You haven’t just given up yet? It’s obviously going nowhere.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

I think what @Dutchess_III is saying is pretty much what @Adirondackwannabe said ” It was an idiotfest all around. What a bunch of morons.”. There were poor choices all around.

The two guys made a poor choice of taking this hapless 3rd leg to a bar where he would either hit on a lesbian or get hit on by a Gay guy either way giving the two a laugh at his expense. They further made a poor choice after they seen him hook up with MTF and not defuse the situation by saying “hey pal lets go shoot some darts, play some pool, or there is another more hopping bar across town lets go there” something to get him away from the present situation; furthering a poor choice.

MTF made a poor choice not to say to 3rd wheel “before this goes further I want you to know I am a special girl” part of the poor choice is accepting a ton of free drinks, and as said straight or other going into a janitor’s closet, bathroom, car, or back alley to engage in sexual activity with one met at a bar is rather poor thinking.

The 3rd wheel had poor choices (even though his was the worse of the poor choices) when he got violent. Though he was double duped (he was not aware his friends were setting him up as a mark) he might have thought he was swindle out of 10s of dollars in drinks by a person born a biological male and he thought he had a hot chic. Also maybe he felt embarrassed because he was kissing a person born a biological male and he liked it making him confused in his drunken haze that he might have Gay leanings. His choice to get violent after the fact was the worse of all the choices but as @Adirondackwannabe and @Dutchess_III there were poor choices and they all added up to a perfect poor choice storm.

I can also follow the logic of @Dutchess_III if one goes to Compton or N. Richmond, CA at 1:20am wearing a knock off Rolex, and fake Louie V shoes with a large CZ cufflinks, tie clasp, and rings and you are outside a liquor store bragging about your Jag in the shop getting fixed and some person with way less money beat you down and steals the cufflinks, tie clasp, rings, and the watch because they thought they were real because of the impression you gave them they would still be wrong for mugging you but you made it easier for them to decide to mug you because they thought they were going to “come up” and not end up stealing worthless junk from you.

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

It inspired some interesting exchanges and responses. GQ

Dutchess_III's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Exactly. To answer the question, is someone to blame? Yes. All four of them. As you said, all four of them made bad choices.

@Likeradar I say that because I said all four of the individual were sleazy idiots, and @MacBean clocked me for saying that about the transsexual, as if I were singling her out or something. Apparently it was OK to say that about the guys, but I guess one does not question the behavior of a transsexual person or you are are transphobic.

downtide's avatar

The transsexual’s actions in the bar did not warrant the beating-up she received. If guy #3 had slapped her in the face and called her a dirty whore, or something like that, then it would have been fair. But getting beaten to that degree, no. That wasn’t her fault. Because then it’s in the same category as blaming a girl for being raped because she’s wearing a short skirt. Or blaming a bloke who got mugged after he’d had a few pints, because he was too drunk.

Being drunk and flirtatious in a bar does not ever warrant being raped or beaten. Ever. No matter who or what you are.

Dutchess_III's avatar

No, @downtide, it didn’t. I agree completely. They all behaved foolishly, but if I had to assign more blame to one person, it would be Guy 3, obviously.

MacBean's avatar

@Dutchess_IIII call the woman the same thing, and that’s the truth too

See, I don’t think it is. I don’t find being in a trans-friendly bar and keeping a guy from groping your bits until you’ve gotten drunk enough to lose your inhibitions sleazy. A poor choice, yes. But not sleazy. If it’ll make you feel better, I’ll add “misogynist” to the list of things I think you are, since I suppose that’s what I would have said if this situation revolved around a naturally-born woman and you expressed that opinion.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@MacBean Please, this is not AB or Answerville, we are better than that I hope. Let us disagree but not get nasty about it we can leave the name calling to those )other_ sites. I am sure we all can agree that poor judgment or stupid behavior should not get you beat down or killed but sometimes it does. Some bloke wanted to get drunk and rip down the road on his Harley, he kills a little girl crossing in a cross walk with her father. He showed no remorse and now because of it some other bloke shanks him in prison and kills him. He and the little girl would be still alive if he had not the need to go get drunk that night or would have at least taken a cab home.

MTF did not deserve to get beat down, I can figure we all agree on that, even if it appears MTF tricked or backdoor stole drinks from 3rd wheel, after all, it is just booze. Was it ethical not to say anything to 3rd wheel? I guess that goes a lot to interpretation. Did MTF believe 3rd wheel was fully knew and was holding out not wanting to give up all the “goodies” too soon? All open to interpretation. If it was some con game on MTF part there was still other ways to handle it. Beating someone like a tent stake over booze would be very extreme and until 3rd wheel got violent he was as much a victim too, he was the mark of his friends who treated him like some stooge to get a laugh. Even though the other 2 or even MTF might have had gaffs 3rd wheel’s reaction was worse overall.

MacBean's avatar

I guess I never weighed in with my actual opinion here, did I?

I place no serious blame with MTF. She was in a trans-friendly place. Getting that drunk was a poor judgment call, but most people do that at least once in their lives, and nobody deserves to be the victim of violence because of it.

Guy 3 gets the blame for being an insecure douche who has to throw punches to show how macho he is instead of walking away. I can sort of understand trans/gay panic. I think it’s a foolish thing to get upset about and I wish people would get the hell over it but I can understand where it comes from. I just don’t understand why it so often results in physical violence. Especially when it escalates to the point of someone being killed.

The biggest assholes in this situation, to me, are the two “friends” who knew the bar was frequented by transsexuals and brought their “buddy” there for a laugh. They completely dehumanized two people by putting aside any consideration for their feelings or safety and using them as cheap entertainment. Guy 3 may be a hopeless troglodyte, but he’s still a person, and he doesn’t deserve to be tricked and used for a laugh. He needs to reevaluate his friendships if these are the kind of guys he hangs out with.

janbb's avatar

When will the violence end?

Dutchess_III's avatar

My thoughts too, MacBean. I agree the two friends are assholes, but so is #3 for his choice of violence.

The reason I call them all sleazy is simply because I, personally, would never even consider letting a strange man grope any part of me in a bar. I wouldn’t let anybody grope me in public! And I would never agree to going out into the alley for a quicky blow job. Any guy who would want to grope me in a bar would be a nasty sleaze to me. Just nasty. I wouldn’t even want to be in a bar where that was going on between others. I realize I’m making moral judgment calls here, but those are my opinions. I think of nasty STD’s and open running sores when I hear of behavior like that.

Also, maybe the MTF hadn’t been female long enough to recognize the dangers of getting a man seriously sexually aroused, then refusing to come thorough on the implied “promise.” For men, sex and violence are two sides of the same coin, in many ways. Think about it…how do other male mammals determine who gets breeding rights? They fight.

I’m not going to say I’ve always been innocent and perfectly lady like in a bar. But I did know when I was getting close to that line and it’s time to shut it down because, as I said, the sexual tension can turn to violence pretty quickly. The MTF just made a very poor choice. Maybe she hadn’t had enough experience yet as a women to avoid the pitfalls of dealing with men.

Dutchess_III's avatar

AH!!! Correcting myself before I get Beaned! I revise “maybe the MTF hadn’t been female long enough to….” OK. She’s always been female, but perhaps she hadn’t been treated as a women long enough by men to understand that there are concerns that women have, that most men don’t have to have. A woman who is walking a dark street at night, in a dangerous section of town is a fool. No, she doesn’t “deserve” to be raped, but there’s a good chance that it’s going to happen, she knows it, so she’s a fool.

MacBean's avatar

ahahahahahaha Lurve for ”...before I get Beaned!” That kind of made my day.

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

Glad to see you kids are getting along. You had me wondering for a minute. :)

Dutchess_III's avatar

I hadda get counseling first to get my head on straight, see @Adirondackwannabe? :)

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