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Ltryptophan's avatar

Which is the superior force information or physics, or are they inseperable?

Asked by Ltryptophan (9112 points ) November 1st, 2010

Please consider reading these details openmindedly, because although they deal with judeo-christian dogma they will run into a ontological discussion that is outside of the limits of my faith, and you might find that, the ontological discussion, the focus of the question, interesting.

As a horrible example of a christian, but one nonetheless, I ponder sometimes the prime directives of my faith. More pondering than honoring for sure, sadly. Why my disconnect? Anyway that is not relevant to the question.

Well, the story of the rich man perplexes me most. Here, Jesus has come across a gentleman who believes himself to have lived righteously all his life. Jesus tells this rich man, but sell everything you have, give it to the poor, and follow Me.

Now, this is very straightforward. And the benefit of it is also straightforward. If the rich man turns his back on this world, he will gain true wealth that will not pass away. He will be the conduit of God’s love. Now, nothing more needs to be said on that head in my opinion, it speaks for itself.

What is important is that God wants to help the poor. What good is it for the powerful to help the poor?

That answer is nothing but the pure focus of true power. If obtainable from that context I think it is valuable.

So, I considered what powers exist for men. There is physical brute strength, and there is the levered power of information. We see that the levered power of information is capable of more than the brute strength of the human physique. Machines that we hone not from muscle, but from the skill of our hands, shape our landscape in a way that animals of burden cannot mimic.

So if information trumps man’s blind physical exertion, then it is also evident that the wild physical forces at work in our universe also trump our current grasp on physics since at any moment any series of cosmic events could erase our lives.

So, who wins? Is it information that is able to bit the mouth of the universe? Or is information a distraction, from the fact that only true unbridled raw energy, constantly transforming all things, must one day overturn all law, all stability, all knowing.

For me, in the parable of the rich man, God is pointing to the answer. Information alone is not enough to save us. There is something right behind us that we are constantly walking away from. Cooperation? The value of the meek, which might be some quantity “x” that goes untapped?

In philosophy we pose that maybe there is a riddle here. The meaning of life. Helping the poor is its own reward, but God can help them all in one fell swoop. Regardless of what you think, Jesus worked under this concept. So, where was He going with this?

Merely, teaching us to love each other? Consider the birds how they are fed. This is the God I know. So, his answer here means more than just to love each other.

I believe the answer is the reigns of the universe, nothing less. It is not enough to give everything you have. It is not even to give it wisely. Giving everything you have to the poor will likely only help them temporarily.

Furthermore, if the rich man succeeds at God’s command, and then the other rich also succeed, what will occur? Soon you will have all the rich, among the poor. The poor, are poor for a reason, they are inept, disabled, separated, hated, diseased, foible, ignorant, criminal, sick, displaced, etc.

So when you add to the poor a new category, the most elite, what is it then to be poor? The highest obedience to God….

Surely, God’s wealth transcends the passing wealth of all worlds. It is life, the spring of life.

The universe in its usable form passes away. All our ability to overcome the hostiles of our environment, even to escape death, must eventually, even if after trillions of years, end with the death of existence.

It is not a given, but it is visible that unless mankind overcomes hurdles whose heights are named, statelessness, we must end.

Why, would you then help the poor? Why, go and sit among them? The answer is clear. Even our richest sons and daughters, are just as poor as the poorest among us, and all share our fate in short order. The evincing of pleasures from our temporal state by the amassing and dispensing of wealth is rediculous, petty, and short sighted.

The answer, and the reigns, for me, is my belief in God. That said, I believe that He is not of the sort to hide things from those who seek, and simply running to His protection is safe enough, but it also ignores what has been wrought by Him for my benefit.

This world is where I learn more than how to live a life that is soon snuffed out. This world is where I found my eternal self on good solid ground.

When God commands me to give everything to the poor, it is not so that I can be poor, and among the poor, to suffer. It is for us to glean what is truly valuable.

This is what I posit is the answer to this parable, I invite your opinion, and your own answer…

As men ascend and attain higher states of being they reach levels of comfort that eat at the very height they reach. Their capabilities, make them lonely, and empty the world of peers. Their essence, however, is based on those peers.

It is a pyramid. At the base are the countless practically helpless throngs. At the top are the fewer and fewer elite. Each higher class further away from the lowest class, and shrunken, smaller and smaller, until nothing remains.

God has not made the meekest among us men. Life forms, and physical forces, too tiny to perceive, or invisible wait to devour the hoarded wealth.

The knowledge passed in this parable is practical not just spiritual. Mankind is in this together. That is the concept. The height you achieve is fictitious at best. Find the lowest among us, and measure your height there. God as creator is worthy of the greatest creations.

Some allowing other creations to be lowly, is an insult to Him. As such, it is an insult to us all, since we are dependent on Him.

I believe this lesson, on this day, is important to all men, of all walks.

The question remains for you. Will simple information be able to overcome physics? If the answer is no, then it is time that we consider all of us, together, as assets in the fight to overcome our most violent adversary. The cosmos itself.

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7 Answers

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

I suppose it depends on what you’re trying to overpower. Information can hurt more than the physical force, in my opinion. Ideas are bulletproof (V for Vendetta) and live on beyond the physical body.

ETpro's avatar

If you view information os that which orders physics, then information is clearly the superior.

The Cosmos is not our enemy. It is the giver and sustainer of life. It is ordered by information—the set of rules that determine the effect of each cause, that create the strong and weak nuclear force, gravity and the electromagnetic force. Some force is driving each galaxy in the Universe apart at an ever accelerating rate, And so far, we lack information about what that force even is, but it is arguably the dominant force in the Universe, as it already has the most distant objects screaming away from us at greater than the speed of light.

Ltryptophan's avatar

@ETpro so when we fail to overcome the information set that underlies the cosmos, will we not be destroyed?

ETpro's avatar

@Ltryptophan I am no more privy to what comes after death than you are. If the materialistic physicists are right, then sweet nothing comes next, and I certainly won’t be sitting around brooding because I have completely ceased to exist. Personally, I am an atheist, bit not a dogmatic one. I do not insist there is no creator. I simply wait to see.

Since you are a Christian, you probably accept what your Holy book said about the hereafter. Luke 16 says:
“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

kess's avatar

To walk in the righteousness of God, one need only one kind of knowledge and that is the….
Knowledge of Truth.

One can fill themselves with all knowledge of all things… but without Truth he still knows nothing.

You will not understand Jesus unless you have the Knowledge of Truth.

Remember He declared himself to be Truth.

There are many within christianity that are following Jesus right into death, and there is no resurrection for them simply because they do not have truth.

Truth is Life and those who find Truth find the same Life as Jesus the CHrist, and they are the ones who bear the true testimony Of Christ.

So who so ever finds Truth has found Life, even if they never heard of Jesus.

wundayatta's avatar

It’s kind of difficult to talk about this, since your approach involves an entirely different approach to the creation of knowledge. I have nothing to say about the “it’s all in the Bible” approach other than it is a peculiar way of gaining knowledge. It is totally dependent on the ability of someone to define the meaning of a story, as you have done here, in what seems to me to be a novel way. It is illustrative that you can take any random story and interpret it in almost any way you want.

Normally, knowledge creation (or information creation) happens in a way that allows others to verify the information. It is done systematically, under conditions that allow you to observe the phenomena you are observing. These conditions also allow you to rule out or account for other factors extraneous to the one you are looking at.

We start by observing. What do we see? When then categorize the things we see according to some arbitrary system that seems useful, and name these categories. Then we observe to see how these variously named categories interact differently with the rest of the world. We measure and test, and identify more and more factors that might be useful in building a model of the universe. Slowly, we gain knowledge. Information.

The universe is the universe. It is what it is. Any information we create is a description of the universe. Or a part of the universe. Information allows us to predict what the universe will do under various sets of conditions. Using information, we can create interventions that make the universe, or a part of it, move in a direction we think we want. There is no superior force here. There is no hierarchy. We are merely describing and trying to understand the inter-relationships between what we perceive to be different aspects of parts of the universe.

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I can’t really comment on your exegesis about the parable of the rich man. However, your conclusion that we are all in this together, no matter how you got to it, is correct. Of course, we could have gotten to the same conclusion (as indeed we have), by learning about human behavior. Game theories have been used to model all kinds of different scenarios, and what they suggest is that cooperation is the best approach for most people. It also suggests there will always be people who won’t cooperate because they can do better that way, which is true. However, for the vast majority, cooperation is the best strategy for getting more of what we want.

I believe, but am not familiar enough with the theory, that in fact, there must be some defectors in order to keep the situation “honest.” Thus, think of rich folks as defectors in the game of life. They do not take the cooperative strategy because they can do better by defecting instead of cooperating.

We might think that everyone should cooperate and then we’d all be best off. I think they have evidence that suggests this is not true. By having a few people who do not cooperate, it shows most of the rest of us the value of cooperation. Similarly, having a few people who are always at war with each other shows us the dangers of constantly fighting each other.

The rich man could surely cooperate, and maybe society would be better. Think about this, then. A lot of filthy rich and very rich people have foundations through which they give their money back to society, including the poor. What does that mean as far as being cooperators is seen?

josie's avatar

Physics exists absent human choice.
Information is only valuable to the extent that it is used as a basis for human choice.
Two completely different concepts.
Your enemy is not the cosmos. Without it , you would not be here to talk about it.

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