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LostInParadise's avatar

What is the basis for the apartheid charges against Israel?

Asked by LostInParadise (31916points) October 11th, 2023

It is much easier for Jews to become Israeli citizens, but that in itself would not seem to justify accusations of apartheid. What behavior by Israelis discriminates against non-Jews more than comparable behavior by its neighbors discriminates against non-Muslims? Israel has some non-Jews in the Knesset. Is there even a chance of having non-Muslims in the governments of other Middle Eastern countries?

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15 Answers

Kropotkin's avatar

The apartheid primarily takes place in the West Bank, and not internally in Israel.

hat's avatar

Amnesty International has a 15-minute video here.

LostInParadise's avatar

It would seem that the only solution is to have a separate Palestinian state, but fewer Israeli Jews are in fover of that. Link

zenvelo's avatar

The accusation of apartheid arises from Israel using walls to keep Palestinian enclaves isolated and separate. Palestinians are not permitted to move freely anywhere in Israel.

Caravanfan's avatar

Here is a reasonably detailed Wikipiedia article on the situation. It’s gotten worse since the 2018 “Jewish State” law. I pretty much agree with the facts as stated in the article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid

LostInParadise's avatar

@Caravanfan , Regarding the Jewish State Law, Israel was created by the U.N. as a Jewish state. Link

elbanditoroso's avatar

It’s a bit simplistic to simply call it apartheid, because there is much more too it than that.

Note that @hat and his Amnesty International video is fundamentally one-sided and inaccurate. But then, that’s what Amnesty International is known for.

The walls that @zenvelo makes reference to are fairly recent – last 8–10 years or so. They were put up as a result of the first two intifadas – low grade and consistent terrorist attacks by Palestinians that killed about a dozen Israelis per month. The walls were erected to stop those attacks.

The Palestinians immediately called that apartheid, because, of course they did. They caused the terrorism, and yet when Israel protected itself, the Palestinians wailed and cried.

I’m not going to rehash the history of Israel here on Fluther – it’s exhausting.

@zenvelo you are simply wrong. IN my Israel travels, I have seen and interacted with Palestinians all over – in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, at restaurants, everywhere. It simply is not true that they can’t move freely.

What is true is that Palestinians have different ID cards and license plates on their vehicles. And it’s true that Palestinians from the territories need specific work permits to work in israel. But that’s because the Palestinians live under the Palestine Authority (what used to be Arafat’s organization) and not under Israel’s administrative authority.

Caravanfan's avatar

@lost that’s not what I am talking about. Read the Wikipedia article I sent.

Response moderated (Personal Attack)
Caravanfan's avatar

Okay I will reframe. I have issues with Israel being directly compared to Apartheid as the root causes are extremely different. I do grant that there are many apartheid qualities so the comparison is a valid one to make.

JLeslie's avatar

A lot of answers already. I don’t want to be too redundant.

I don’t think Palestinians will ever agree to a two state solution. The deal at Camp David with Clinton was probably the best deal the Palestinians could have hoped for and they refused it. Here is a link to the parameters https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clinton_Parameters#:~:text=The%20Clinton%20Parameters%20proposed%20a,mainly%20in%20major%20settlement%20blocs.

Hamas is basically in control in Gaza and Hamas doesn’t accept any type of Jewish state and would love to see the Jews all dead.

The West Bank is a different story. You can’t put all Palestinians or even the different regions in one basket.

In South Africa and the US the oppressed group wanted equality in their country. Regarding the Palestinians you have a faction who outright wants to destroy Israel and have their own country. Even some Palestinians who live in Israel don’t want to take Israeli citizenship.

Israel does take actions that treat Palestinians like a subclass or not equally, but think how difficult it is to trust the Palestinians. Do you think it would make sense to have them in the Israeli Army. There are Arabs in the military, there were some Arab groups who swore allegiance to Israel when the UN decision was made.

The video seemed to start with right before the UN decision. The history goes much much farther back. The Jews were on those lands for thousands of years. Arabs have been there a long time too.

In the 1930’s my husband’s paternal grandparents and many other Jewish people left what is now Israel because of rising antisemitism. If people weren’t always trying to oppress, enslave, and kill the Jews, there would have been many more still on those lands in the late 1930’s and early 1940’s.

There are 7 million Jews in Israel and about 350 million Arabs in the Middle East. Israel just wants a little piece of land. It’s so easy to say there were “only X amount of Jews.” We are always a small number. Meanwhile, the numbers I have seen for Jews in the area at time of the decision are different than the video that was linked above, I have seen much larger numbers. Here is one link, but I would want to look at several sources. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present

It’s been a few generations since the UN decision. The one hope might be younger Palestinians might be more willing to compromise? Or, see the value in having a democracy and being more progressive.

An Israeli friend said to me yesterday hopefully this attack at least will finally get rid of Netanyahu. I was afraid it might do the opposite. I hope she is correct and I am wrong.

Hamas was vicious, savage, there aren’t enough words to describe the brutality. If Palestinians don’t stand up and say they condemn their tactics they are complicit.

LostInParadise's avatar

GA! It is a miserable situation.

It will be interesting to see what happens to Netanyahu. After all, the situation took place on his watch,

JLeslie's avatar

@LostInParadise That’s exactly what my Israeli friend’s first reaction was, on Netanyahu’s watch, but she hates him anyway. She finally left Israel because of him and the continued shift to the right.

I think more Israelis will shift more to the right after this attack.

Even she said her view of the Palestinians used to be feeling bad for their situation and believing helping them would help everyone, but now she said she is so angry, and believes Palestinians are just too indoctrinated and brainwashed to hate Israelis from childhood that the situation is impossible.

JLeslie's avatar

Recent article by Nas. I used to follow him on facebook when he was doing Nas Daily videos for a year.

Maybe there is some hope, but he is Palestinian born and raised in Israel and Harvard educated.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/angry-over-hamas-assault-influential-palestinian-blogger-says-he-is-israeli-first/amp/

JLeslie's avatar

Sorry for another post. Feel free to ignore, but I thought I would give you some links for Nas videos. For years he has been trying to be a loud voice for peace.

Here is Nas a year ago talking about a two state solution. Be sure to watch the very end, the last minute. https://youtu.be/oNW2p0nTEto?si=a1G5t4lTidh5lYAb

K-12 segregated schools in Israel. https://fb.watch/nDvpczCun6/?mibextid=cr9u03

Prejudice in Israel https://fb.watch/nDw3QCcq33/?mibextid=cr9u03

Are Jews safe in Arab areas in Israel https://fb.watch/nDwKEEfmXr/?mibextid=cr9u03

He has a lot of short videos.

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