Social Question

Luiveton's avatar

What do you think of this? (Political catastrophe)

Asked by Luiveton (4142 points ) February 1st, 2013

I was searching for news all over the world when I noticed this: http://twitchy.com/2013/02/01/shocking-video-egyptian-police-beat-and-strip-protester-in-cairo/

Read the tweets. Scroll down and watch the videos. Apparently the police force is beating up a naked man and dragging him on the ground. This is sort of linked to this previous situation according to the tweets: http://www.npr.org/blogs/pictureshow/2011/12/21/144098384/the-girl-in-the-blue-bra
Simply disgusting.
This is complete inhumanity, nothing a person ever does deserves this pain, humiliation, and cruelty.
What are your views on this??

The police force need to respect their people if they expect any respect in return, you don’t just drag a human like a piece of meat. You can reinforce the ‘law’ in a different more humane way. I mean, how do we as a ‘species’ differ from animals right now? We create laws for a reason, but this?
I’m also going to link this to my previous question regarding nonconformism; situations like these make me realize why it’s better to not conform to anything but what you see fit. In the end it doesn’t really matter.

What does the country as a whole think it’s doing?? This isn’t progress from how I see it. They’re putting themselves in an even more dire situation.
It’s horrible.

Anyway I’m assuming chunks of this question might not make sense, but that doesn’t matter because I’d like to know your views on this situation.

Do you think stuff like that happens all over the world? Does it simply go unnoticed?

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15 Answers

zensky's avatar

It’s Egypt. Welcome to global realities.

HolographicUniverse's avatar

Shocking as it sounds this sort of behavior is common in law enforcement worldwide (and would happen more often in places like Egypt, Africa etc) When it happens in America, or better yet when it’s caught, the situations can be just as severe and just as disgusting from “corrupt”, or simply aggressive, officers with no regard to the offender as individuals.

glacial's avatar

It goes noticed by people in some parts of the world.

elbanditoroso's avatar

Islamic culture (and the Muslim brotherhood – the ruling group in Egypt) devalues and disrespects women. And they don’t have a lot of respect for men who aren’t as religious as they claim to be.

You are judging them based on Western values and standards. That is incorrect. In their culture, this is normal.

antimatter's avatar

It is wrong to judge actions of third world countries according to the value of the modern western countries or first world countries.
It’s Africa! It happens in most third world countries, the police can act any way they wish because there is simply no watchdog to monitor them. Yes the police need to respect people, but I wonder when will people start respecting the police because if you see in what horrendous environments they sometimes have to work in then you may understand why they would treat some people the way they do. This is very common in third world countries where even the police are under paid and overworked and they have to make do with the minimum funds knowing that their ministers are all living in luxury and they have to live in poverty.

ETpro's avatar

@antimatter Nazi Germany was its own unique culture too. That didn’t make Hitler’s atrocities acceptable. I see nothing wrong with opposing police brutality directed at peaceful protesters where ever it occurs, and everything wrong with accepting it as culturally normal. People in Islamic countries have a right to disagree with me. But that means I have an equal right to disagree with them as well, and to express my disapproval of their brutality as openly as they display that brutal suppression of all dissent form their right-wing religious ideology.

zensky's avatar

^ Agreed.

”... is to stand back and do nothing.”

Luiveton's avatar

@elbanditoroso Actually, I think what you and @antimatter are saying is wrong. What you shouldn’t be doing is judging actions depending on culture and religion. This is a case dictating the level of humanity regardless of beliefs. Don’t mix morals with religion.
If you’re saying that attacking a human as such in any culture/religion is normal then I am sorry but you are exceedingly incorrect.
Don’t judge a person based on their religion, because religions are spread worldwide, a human differs from another because of the conditions in which they were raised. The moralities they were taught, etc. But not simply ‘religion’ and ‘culture’.
Don’t forget that they are humans, just like you. And their people don’t agree with the ruling, otherwise they wouldn’t be protesting.
What you should be against is the Muslim Brotherhood, they’re the extremists here.But the normal protesters aren’t extremists. They’re just people who follow their religions accordingly. Just like Buddhists, Christians, Jews, and any other religion.
I don’t agree with the fact that religion should separate us as humans. You seem to keep forgetting that after all we are one.
@antimatter Yes, their ministers are living in luxury. But are the working class (who aren’t within the police force) living in luxury too? No. They see the police force as servants to the upper-hands of the country.
@ETpro I completely agree with some of what you are saying.
However, brutal suppression is displayed all around the globe, be it in the past or present, regardless of religion, and I’m pretty sure their people are expressing their disapproval of the police’s brutality.

They lack morals. That is simply it. No humanity, morals, or respect. But their actions don’t fall back to their religion.
As for disrespecting women, I would say that falls within the actions of extremists such as the Muslim Brotherhood, however, the majority of the people there aren’t extremists and have evolved enough to know better. These aren’t animals we’re talking about.

Plus doesn’t anyone find the terms ‘third world countries’ demeaning?

HolographicUniverse's avatar

@Luiveton
Actually alot of the brutal suppression and motives behind these mass murders can be traced back to traditional, or current, religious themes. It’s not that they’re simply “inhumane” and have an intrinsic desire to exterminate these individuals… They have a goal which is, alot of the time, based on idealogical principles

elbanditoroso's avatar

@Luiveton – and I must disagree with you. You try and separate religion and morals, as if they were two separate and distinct things. You use the word “morals” as if that word had one single meaning (which, in my mind it can’t and doesn’t), as if it were universally understood around the world, and as if its meaning were immutable and absolute.

My response is that morals are in fact non-absolute. They derive from the religion within a population. Morals reflect the religious values of a certain group and are decidedly NOT agreed to universally. Even right here in the US, there are all sorts of moral issues that derive from religion, based on the group. Two rather simple ones are Capital Punishment and Abortion. What is a moral absolute to you – whichever side you are on – is clearly not shared by others.

So back to Africa.

Islam says that non-believers can be killed and women can be debased and disrespected. That is the religious framework where they live. And their religious views gives permission to take the actions that they did. They be ‘immoral’ in the sense that a Westerner finds them disgusting or worse, but according to THEIR yardstick, these actions are not only legal, but demanded by the tenets of their religion. It would not be moral – in their framework – to let an infidel survive.

So for a person like you or me – a westerner – to apply OUR morals to THEIR country or religion is both arrogant and hegemonistic. We wouldn’t want someone else to tell us that our western religions are wrong—so who are we to push our version of morality on them? Your argument fails because that is exactly what you are suggesting.

There are no absolutes.

Luiveton's avatar

No religion would ever condone murder and disrespect. You are clearly making assumptions based on the actions of individuals. Of course they don’t think it’s fine, or legal for that matter.
Your opinion is based on what you see/hear from the news. But their actions don’t represent everyone else.
I would say that the actions of certain extreme Muslims cause us to view the vast majority’s legalities and behavior accordingly.
But can you honestly say that your opinions, or views, rather, aren’t influenced in the slightest by the media or previous events caused by individuals/cults?
And according to the link, many of the tweets show actual Egyptians’ disgust regarding the situation.
I really don’t think it’s fine for us to assume that everyone within that culture thinks disrespecting a woman is fine, especially if your knowledge concerning them and their religion is limited. If it’s not limited then feel free to explain what makes you think so.

And @elbanditoroso, how exactly, does my argument fail? I am not exactly planning on attacking the country with my opinions. I am not the only one expressing my disgust towards the police force’s actions/religion, the whole nation is, hence the subsequent protests.
In fact, throughout my argument I did not once say or explicitly imply that there is something wrong with what they believe in, I was specifically talking about the police force and the extremists.
Besides, if you think that killing and disrespect is normal within their culture, then the whole population of about 80 million would have an strong effect on the world, I can assure you. If all of them really followed what you say is their ‘religion’ then there would be mass murder everyday. And you’d hear about it. They are normal people, simply surrounded by extremists. The country is undergoing a very unstable phase at the moment, it would be unwise to harshly judge them and brand it as their norm. Or simply base our knowledge on the negative things extremists do. Try building a more optimistic view of them, don’t simply follow the media.
Also, expressing my perspective on something does not and will not render my argument invalid.
And from how I see it, religion and morals are two separate things. Are you trying to say Atheists have no morals? You don’t need to have a religion to separate right from wrong.
Morals dictate who you are as a person, not what you worship. Religion does have an effect on the way you act, but it does not, in any way, interfere with your morals as a unique individual on this earth.

I really do respect your opinions, but I would not like for my argument to be considered moot just because it does not go hand in hand with yours. I am truly trying to understand where you’re coming from, but I’m miserably failing. All I’m seeing is the repetitive ‘da da da culture religion normal for them.’ It’s not. Killing is not right in any religion.

elbanditoroso's avatar

@Luiveton – you wrote “Killing is not right in any religion.”

That’s your interpretation.

The Catholics engaged in MASS killings curing the Crusades—if you didn’t take up the cross (hence the word CRUSADE) then you were put to death, with the blessing of the pope.

Judaism says “though shall not kill”, but the historical translation is “murder” not “kill” in general. Killing is allowed for self defense, warfare, and capital punishment. So Judaism also allows, under certain circumstances, the taking of life.

And Islam is similar to Judaism in the sense of self defense, warfare, etc., but also adds a number of verses (in the Koran) that command moslems to “kill the infidel”.

So don’t argue that “religion is not right in any religion”. That is your interpretation.

Luiveton's avatar

@elbanditoroso But does that justify it? Regardless of blessings and approvals, do you think it’s right? Would you do it? That’s where morals come in. Not religion. Would you kill a person? It may be approved of in certain situations, but it’s not right.
Obviously self defense and warfare is a given, but I’m concerned with this situation in particular.
We’re discussing the present here, not the past.
Maybe your point is that killing under certain circumstances is fine in some religions, but the guy they were beating up does not fall under any category of the above mentioned. So what are you trying to say, exactly?

Once again my point is that you’re making sweeping generalizations and applying them to the vast majority. That’s still not right.
About the verses, do you mind showing me them, please? I’d like to find out more. One thing is for sure, though, both Christians and Muslims view infidelity negatively. In fact I believe the word stems from Christianity (originally latin.), and was used more commonly prior to the birth of Islam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel
In fact I don’t believe ‘infidel’ is a term used in the Koran. (Later on in the article: ‘Kafir, like infidel, has also come to be regarded as offensive,[22] thus some Muslim scholars discourage its use due to the Quran’s command to use kind words.[23][22] It is even a punishable offense to use this term against a Jew or a Christian, under Islamic law.[22] Some contemporary Muslim extremists, however, have applied the term to all non-Muslims.[19]’)

Basically, some of the police force are assholes. But that doesn’t mean the rest of the nation are. And their attitude certainly doesn’t fall back to their religion/culture whatever it is you want to call it.

elbanditoroso's avatar

@Luiveton – according to my values, no. According to their values, it is permissible.

ETpro's avatar

@Luiveton What you seem to be disagreeing with, I never wrote. I said nothing to condemn all Muslims.

I spoke of police brutality. That phrase applies only to police use of force where it is unwarranted. The police of any nation have a right and obligation to use force, including deadly force, in order to protect the lives and property of peaceful citizens. Brutal suppression of legitimate political dissent is wrong whether it occurs in Egypt, the Sudan, India or America.

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