France has banned Islamic veils on women. should this also apply in America?

According to our statue of religious freedom, we can’t do a thing about it.
But I feel close to the same. If i had to choose I’d say off with them, but in all honesty, I don’t care.

Religious argument in 3…..

No. I think if an individual’s identity is in question by a proper authority, then they should have to remove the veil to confirm their identity. Apart from that, why should we infringe on another person’s religious beliefs?

In America it can easily be considered a fashion statement….

I stopped two women in a car wearing veils. they were suspects in shoplifting from a Dollar General Store. both women positively identified as the theifs. but refuse to unveil themselves after arrest. both still refused to unveil during the booking procedure and photographs required by law. enough was enough. we grabbed the veils and two faces appeared. you can only carry a religious belief so far. and, when it involved in criminal activity, the veils will go.

It shouldn’t even apply in France, but they never asked me.

Thanks for asking.

When does a religious belief override crimiinal activity?

It falls under the umbrella of religious freedom and therefore, this question is merely hypothetical. :)

YES, they should be banned as well as the whole burkha thing. And yes we can do it. I seriously doubt I would get very far without being arrested if I walked into a bank with a ski mask covering my head. What idiocy. Good for the French. And good for the Swiss for banning the building of Muslim Miniarets (sp?).

@john65pennington It doesn’t. Otherwise those sick bastards that preform exorcisms on little kids would go unpunished. I feel you did the right thing.

No.

What if the police were looking for two wanted females for armed robbery. surveillance cameras show the women in detail, both wearing masks. further investigation reveils the two suspects without their veils and photos sent to my department. i locate the suspects, but they refuse to unveil. i have photos of both suspects veiled and unveiled. i cannot make a positive identification unless their veils are removed. they both refuse. what would you do?

“When does a religious belief override crimiinal activity?”

i think you mean.. when does personal religion come before the law..
and that my friend is an oxymoron of a question if ever i’ve heard one.

Call it what you may, but the veils still go when an arrest has occured.

@john65pennington Get them for obstruction of justice. If my buddy can get it for refusing to sit on a curb as opposed to standing in the exact same spot, or my roommate can get it for asking a cop if he can just take his other friend home to avoid punishment. Then I see you as completely within your authority to do it with them.

@john65pennington, that is to say: because of your beliefs, their beliefs will have to be put to the side.

You would also have to ban wigs, toupees, hoodies and sunglasses.

I am sympathetic to the French ban because I do not like religious fundamentalism. But religious discrimination is not legal in the US. A broader definition would have to apply.

Nothing that happens in France should apply to America and vise versa. They are two different places. Aside from that, you should be allowed to wear what you like. You can still wear it in America and that is what this place is supposed to be about.

You say women in America are proud of their heritage. Don’t the veils signify a Muslim woman’s heritage? You also say “if you live in my country, you abide by my country’s rules” . . . wasn’t America founded on principles of religious freedom?

My problem with the ban on veils is that it singles out just Muslim women for this treatment. They aren’t asking any other group of people to remove symbols of their religion. I’m not too familiar with France’s reasons for instituting the veil ban, but I have a few guesses. The French lawmakers could see wearing veils as a sign of fundamentalism, which they consider dangerous. Or they could be trying to “liberate” Muslim women from having to wear veils because the practice is perceived as sexist. That would be a total oxymoron, because all the ban does is impose a new restriction on women.

I say do what you want if it’s within your legal rights. As far as looking at someone’s face, maybe it’s none of your business what they look like. If their face needs to be seen in some cases (ie for photo identification purposes) then that’s understandable. But I think everyone has a right to cover up whatever the hell they feel like. If that came into law, how draconian and orwellian would it be show your face at all times. We MUST see your face for you to walk in the streets, or you will be arrested

Also, what about people who have scars or other physical deformities and they want to cover up? Do they have to show their faces too just because someone else is feeling irrationally threatened?

I am pretty sure in NYC you cannot cover your face, maybe it is true in other cities also in America. You must be identifiable. I think this has been a law for a long time. I’m thinking the KKK might have influenced some of these laws? Maybe my information is incorrect?

What the fuck? Do you only believe in freedom of religion when it’s your religion?

Of course this shouldn’t apply in the US. This is straight up bigotry. Thanks to the actions of a few fundamentalist lunatics, it’s okay to discriminate against Muslims now. Fucking ridiculous.

@efritz I am a big time religious freedom girl, BUT you don’t get to do anything you want in the name of religion. You don’t get to kill your wife because she looked at another man, or risk sufficating someone during some rebirth ceremony, even if your religion says it is ok. There are limits to religious freedom even in America. If it harms yourself or others its out. I am not sure the burka or wearing a veil rises to the occasion or not. I kind of agree that you should be identifiable, but of course @Siren brings up a good point that some people have disfigurements they want to cover up, and in very cold climates ski masks are worn, etc.

Please people. You wear a ski mask around town completely concealing your identity and you will soon be arrested. For crying out loud, Asian immigrants go so far as assuming US names to fit in and become part of the culture and they do it without offending everyone else. No one has a problem with Jewish men wearing the little skullcaps. Hey they do not obscure appearance. @JLeslie is exactly right on reply to @efritz. You don’t get to do anything you want to do in the name of religious freedom

If Muslims want to come to the US, they can adapt to us…100%. It’s our country, not theirs. No one asks them to come. If they don’t like the rules, they can take advantage of one more religious freedom….LEAVE!!

@john65pennington right on

I don’t think they should have been banned and I am all about being against organized religion and cultures where women ‘willingly’ do what’s very strongly expect of them only.

I’m a little confused. Could someone let me know when the French government completely banned the hijab? I was living in France when the ban in state buildings and schools came into effect, but that was a ban of all religious articles, including stars of David and crosses or crucifixes. As a French professor explained to me at the time, this came from the French approach to the separation of Church and State. No outward religious symbols are allowed on government property. However, I was not aware that this ban had extended throughout all aspects of society. If it does, I am sorely disappointed.
I also believe, though I may be wrong, that the United States Constitution’s meaning of the separation of church and state means that we cannot regulate people’s religious displays, as long as they do not force others to join them. By banning the burka or the hijab, would we not be forcing these women to conform to a Western, Judeo-christian ideal of what women should wear? Part of the greatness of this country is the freedom of religion, and limiting that is not something we should strive for. I understand that in certain cases, such as an arrest, a hijab should be removed, but an effort should be made to accommodate their religious issues, perhaps making sure that a female officer took the picture. Certainly a nation-wide ban on religious jewelry or clothing is not the answer.
In most Muslim societies, the hijab is no longer a required item of clothing. Most of the women that I know who wear them do so by choice, regardless of where they live. As such, most Muslim women would probably remove it if you asked them for a real reason, not just that of religious persecution. It concerns me that there’s so much vitriol here against people whose religious backgrounds are different from ours. Can I ask for tolerance?

@zephyr826 I don’t think the hijab is banned. The OP was talking about a veil. Although, I do remember hearing that in France schools were not going to allow the hijab. I don’t know how I feel about it. Generally I think better to conform. I argued with redpowerlady a while back because she wanted to allow Native Americans to wear a feather on graduation day. I think the uniform is the uniform. But, certainly, it has to apply to everyone.

I’m in favor of a ban of the chador and burqa in all western societies. To me it’s a human rights violation. No one has the right to confine a woman to a mobile prison and forcing them to renounce their individuality. Both dress codes are disgusting to say the least. When crimes are being committed it’s very difficult to identify cloaked people.

The headscarf should be allowed except perhaps in public buildings (see approach of Turkey).

No man should have the right to force a woman to wear a headscarf. In Germany many Muslim communities receive generous donations from wealthy Saudi Arabian clergymen. The condition is wearing a headscarf, but it’s impossible to prove this. When you ask the women they tell you it’s by choice.

@mattbrowne: What if the women really are doing it by choice?

@nikipedia – They create a dilemma.

@plethora Who, exactly, is “our”?

@mattbrowne: Other cultures cover their hair, including some African cultures. I doubt any women are creating a dilemma for covering their hair. Hats would have to be banned too, I suppose, if you are short-haired (if someone wants to see your hair color). I think the dilemma would become even more chaotic if dress codes were enforced for the entire nation. Who wants to look alike? I don’t.

And, that’s the end of fashion too folks. Think about it.

@siren, What about in public schools? Are you ok with having a dress code there?

Since god is still in our public schools there is no way we could ban any religious symbols.

@tinyfaery There are religious symbols in public schools? Are you talking about Christmas trees, or crosses or what?

Oh, the pledge of allegiance, intelligent design, religious schools groups in public schools, private, religious schools receiving tax money, etc…

@tinyfaery Oh, all of that. Yes I agree. When you used the word symbol I had the idea that virgin Mary was in some class room with rosary beads draped around her. All that you mentioned bothers me too. We have the added bonus in my school system of teaching the bible in English class as literature.

Question.
How is god a symbol of any specific religion? And how can you use the fact that we say god in out pledge as a POA? All religions have a “god”, hell the Greeks had about 20 gods. Does this also mean that our monetary system is a place of religious persecution? If so I’d be more than willing to take all that evil “in god we trust” stamped blasphemous garbage off your hands. just sayin
Schools have religious groups yes, but they do not take place during school. They are voluntary extracurricular activities. You can teach about religion as it is a chapter and influential part of history, but you cant very well display it. I had a jewish friend that was asked to remove his hat, a christian friend asked to hide or take off her cross and many occasions. Why is it all of a sudden religious persecution to ask that the veil be removed in school (where religion is not supposed to be anyway) , or in events where identification is required, as such of @john65pennington ‘s story?

@Shield_of_Achilles: God isn’t a symbol of a religion but by definition god is a religious symbol. Separation of church and state does not refer to separating a particular religion, it refers to separating all religions from politics and public institutions.

I don’t think anyone in this thread has argued for individual religious liberties in school. Unfortunately, we do not grant our children the same freedoms that we enjoy when they’re in school. They have no free speech, no free expression, no free assembly, and no religious freedoms.

@Shield_of_Achilles There are atheists in our country. And Buddhists. And probably other religions that don’t have a God. Plus separation of church and state means God should not be in our public schools, or on our money. These two particular things I would not waste my time fighting about in courts of law, because there are bigger fish to fry, but in America neither thing should exist.

@nikipedia The second part is true. In fact, in most hand books, it’s stated that by being in school you are relinquishing your freedoms and are granted again as privileges that can be taken away at the discrepancy of the administrators.

Also, look above my post starting with “Question.” That’s exactly what they were discussing. Lol

All in all I really don’t care either way. I’m just bored and like having friendly arguments, even if what I say isn’t how I truly feel on the subject.

@JLeslie Atheists have no connection to a religion at all, so of course they have no god. As for Buddhists, they have not god per-say, but their religious figure is Buddah and to us “none so bright uns” we just call him their god, not knowing better.
I see your point in the matter, but I don’t see it as being completely on mark. As with the constitution, all government documents can be tightly or loosely interrupted. thus, I see that by encompassing god in such things, as a country, we are not saying that you must praise a certain god, but that you should trust in us, or believe in us, as you do your own god.Ya know?

Well, government and government officials should not be Gods to us. And, “under God” was added later, it is not the original pledge. If we really had separation of church and state it would all be easier, a non-issue. Take prayer in school, that is an outrage to me. That we even consider it a topic seems ludicrous.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen an in school prayer.
And I’m not saying see our govt. as a god system, and I am in NO way saying to see our politicians as such. Just that the system needs faith, much like the faith given to religion.

I just mean that there are people trying to put prayer in school. When I say to these people, “what if your community was 50% Muslim or Buddhist? Do you want to encourage a school teacher to lead a prayer?” They ALL say, “I would move.” Easy to say when you are part of the majority. They have no understanding of protecting the rights of all religions, and protecting children from feeling like the odd man out. I am not saying you think this way, I just see it all as a slippery slope. I’m in the bible belt so it is more at the top of my mind. Where I grew up I would not even worry about it because it would seem impossible that someone would want prayer in school. Like I said they teach the bible in the high school near me.

Interesting. I didn’t think that was legal unless it was a privet school.

You’re right, It is a very slippery slope indeed. But on the comment of feeling like the odd man out, wouldn’t the veils create the same effect? But even then, social groups and isolationism are pretty much the back bone of public schools.

@tb1570 “our” is every American citizen who subscribes to our form of government, submits to it’s laws, and supports the system of government. Anyone who comes here has the freedom to maintain their traditions until it conflicts with the greater good of our citizens. Then they have the right to comply or leave, but not to change the rules for ALL the rest of us. The custom in America is that you don;t get to walk around totally concealed from everyone else, just as you don;t get to get on an airplane without being frisked if the authorities so deem it.

whoops, I guess this is what I get for taking a 12-hr break from fluther.

@JLeslie – no, you should not kill your wife in the name of religion. Freedom has its limits. But veils do not harm anyone. These two actions are hardly comparable, in my opinion.

@Shield_of_Achilles Yes, the veils create the same effect. That is why I am for uniforms in public schools. I think the young girl who is the only kid in her class wearing a hijab probably feels out of place, and if your daughter was in a class full of girls wearing a hijab and she wasn’t, your daughter would feel out of place. Children have enough problems with fitting in and self esteem. I just think every time we think about these things we have to imagine ourselves as the minority. The big questions is, should they have the choice to wear it if they want to? I’m leaning towards no.

I think it is illegal, teaching the bible. It should be challenged, but it hasn’t been yet. They should have comparative religion if they want a class to teach the bible in.

@JLeslie WOOOOOO! I just realized that we have been debating, while both technically being on the same side…. Lol

@Shield_of_Achilles I think it started with you asking how is God a religious symbol of any specific religion. You seemed ok with God in school.

@JLeslie TBH, as long as stuff isn’t in my face, I don’t care about it. Like I have absolutely no problems with gay people, but when this guy spent 2 hours trying to convince me that I’d like being with another man I got a little aggravated…

@JLeslie:

@siren, What about in public schools? Are you ok with having a dress code there?

Good question. In America, there is a pretty flexible, loose dress code. It is targeted more towards preventing people from dressing to distraction so that students can focus on learning. So, I guess that’s a question best debated in the public school system. Yet, again, at this point in history freedom of religion supercedes some clothing considered “costumey” in school. I don’t understand how a young girl wearing a scarf in school to cover her head would be extremely distracting to the other students, unless she had a flashing, electronic neon sign protruding from it displaying rotating advertisements.

@Siren – I just have an issue with extreme attitudes. In western societies streakers and fully-cloaked people are not acceptable. Otherwise the dress code should be very liberal. Covering your hair is acceptable. Actually in the past this was done in Europe and America as well, for example during harvest (protection against dust because of dry and windy weather). Shampoo was a luxury 100 years ago. Nuns also cover their hair. If girls and women want to wear a headscarf that’s fine. A face without hair still gives women an identity. If they are forced to do it, it’s not acceptable. A problem arises if a headscarf sends a political message, as for example understood in Turkey. There is a growing movement which wants to dismantle the secular system and build a theocracy. Therefore there are rules about headscarves at Turkish schools and universities.

The wife and I saw a woman, at Disneyland, who was fully covered, save for her eyes. I thought to myself how freeing this must be. She doesn’t have to worry about make-up, or pimples, or wrinkles, she can wear her pajamas all day, if she chose. No one is judging her for her beauty or lack thereof. Just because you do not understand does not make it extreme.

@Siren Well, some public schools do have dress codes. Pretty much all of the Elementary schools in Southeast FL do, but I don’t think all of the high schools, not sure? Here in Memphis, the Memphis schools also have uniforms, not sure if it is all grades. In my mind the uniform is a way to level the playing field. Teachers are less likely to discriminate, and students also. I am not sure my final decision on the matter, but I lean towards the uniform is the uniform and you can’t alter it. Then I think if a boy wants to wear a yamaka it should probably be ok. But, I’m thinking that Jewish kid probably doesn’t want to be the only one with a yamaka on is head in class, maybe he would be glad there is a rule in his public school so he doesn’t have to hide or fight with his parents.

Ya know I was driving along today, and the blather I’m seeing on this thread about whether some Muslim should be deprived of the right to wear a burqa in the US popped to mind. And it occurred to me that I am not even allowed to tint the windows of my car as dark as I would like them just to block the sun….BECAUSE it is against the law to conceal yourself in a private vehicle in public to that extent.

The exact same reasoning should apply to any kind of concealment. No burqas and Muslim custom and religious law be damned if it’s being paraded as an excuse for concealment. If they wanna wear them, they can live in a country that allows it. We should not allow it.

Mature self-assured unveiled women don’t have to worry about make-up, or pimples, or wrinkles. The image of ever young, super perfect people is a dangerous illusion and all it does is making people feel miserable and plastic surgeons very rich. Instead of investing in plastic surgery and alleged super beauty, people should use their money to buy books, do advanced trainings or travel and learn about other cultures. I’m telling myself how freeing it must be to just accept our changing bodies as we grow older.

When we communicate with other people facial expressions are extremely important. A whole section in our brains is dedicated to this. There is a lot of research on mirror neurons. We are social creatures and our social brains need to connect with others. Fully cloaked faces is a perverse and hideous tradition and it contributes to the destruction of our very humanity which includes the need to look at each others faces.

Chadors and burqas are not a general Islamic tradition. They are a cultural tradition of parts of particular countries. Go to Turkey or Indonesia and you will barely see them (except on a few religious zealots).

Running around naked and running around fully cloaked is not our tradition. And this does not restrict the freedom of religion that we need to maintain and protect.

@mattbrowne
I don’t want to start a fight with you, but I think I have to respectfully disagree with your militant-seeming stance on this. First, I completely agree that ”[r]unning around naked and running around fully cloaked is not our tradition”. But… so what? People have lots of traditions. It used to be traditional for women (in this country) to be covered nearly from head to foot, and the only “permissible” parts to be seen were hands and face. Times change, but for some, they don’t change as fast as for others.

I also agree that ”[m]ature self-assured unveiled women don’t have to worry about make-up, or pimples, or wrinkles”, but a lot of mature and otherwise self-assured women still do worry about those things. They won’t leave the house without the full face treatment, hair colored, treated and styled ‘just so’, and with perfectly matching accessories to a killer outfit. And some are fine with a t-shirt, jeans and flip-flops. And others cover up.

Men aren’t immune, either. You must know plenty of men who think they have really mastered the comb-over, and that they’re somehow hiding the fact that they are nearly completely bald. Some men—in the USA—still wear turbans, from customs that they grew up with. (Men in this country never used to go outside without a hat, and now we do it all the time.)

So I disagree that you or I or anyone else can say how people “should” present themselves to the world. People present themselves to the world—or they don’t!—as they choose. And as long as there is no suspicion of them having committed a crime, I’m completely in favor of letting people’s presentations be their own damn business.

I mostly do agree with laws that prevent fully tinted windows for drivers, so that law enforcement (primarily) can view the driver, but if the driver is veiled, I see no problem with that. An officer will stop a driver who appears to be underage, not in control of the vehicle, operating unsafely, etc. “Appearance” has little or nothing to do with that.

In the case where a crime has been committed and an officer is investigating, then I agree that in this case—and only in this case—there is potential for abuse. A mugger can take down a victim and then put on a disguise—or vice versa. This makes detection difficult, if not impossible. But until we get to a state of affairs where such crimes occur with regularity—and I submit that we’re nowhere near that point yet here in the USA—then I still prefer “live and let live”.

It’s not up to you or me to determine who is “forced” to cover her (or his) face. I respect that people have all kinds of personal motives and reasons, and I most certainly do not want a psyche police. I think (with all respect to @john65pennington and his brother officers) we’ve got enough police.

Hell, even here on Fluther, where we can be as anonymous as we like, it seems that more of us than not (you’re an exception, of course) have avatars that are not our own faces.

@mattbrowne No fight Matt. Just think we’re talking about two different things. Totally concealing oneself is a threat. If you think not, walk into a bank, (or a shoe store) with a ski mask and an overcoat on. If you’re on the ski slope it is appropriate. In the bank its not. If you disagree, I would really like to tint my windows about twice as dark as they are now and could use a good word from you to persuade the law. The law thinks it’s a threat (and it is). Somehow my protestations of religious liberties carry no weight.